Celebrities Protest Mass. Wind Farm

[Nambe]

BOSTON Aug. 11 — (AP)

The rich and famous have long flocked to the beaches of Cape Cod and the island seclusion of Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket a land of sailboats and quaint vacation homes.

Now some of these celebrities want to make sure wind turbines don't become a part of the scenery. --

The turbines 420 feet tall would be located about 3 miles off the coast and supply close to three-quarters of the electricity used on Cape Cod and the islands of Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard.

The farm's proximity to exclusive summertime playgrounds of Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard and Cape Cod has bred the familiar "not-in-my-backyard" charges from officials at Cape Wind Associates.

"If the government determines that this project is in the public interest, that ultimately is much more important than anyone's individual aesthetic opinion," Cape Wind spokesman Mark Rodgers said. "If these agencies determine that this project is in the public interest, then we would supply three-quarters of the electricity that Mr. McCullough will use in his home from a clean, renewable resource." ---

[BenFranklinUSA]

1. Turbines Are Kinda Cute

What's the fuss? The wind thingys are usually very artsy in design, and it clean juice, so why not?

[TSElliott]

5. Probably because they drop the value of property by half.

And the celebrities want to live in million dollar homes not $500,000 homes.

[JewelDigger]

9. Can you back that statement up?

re: dropping the property values in half.

[TSElliott]

20. Nope I was being facetious.

However I would assume that 400 foot windmills going woomp, woomp, woomp from 10 miles away is not going to increase their value either.

http://www.tva.gov/environment/reports/windfarm/appendix_f.pdf

[Ouabache]

91. Windmills 10 mi away wouldn't decrease the values

"Hell, there is only one Nantuckett", he said with a grin.

[damnraddem]

23. Even if that's true, tough!

They can make it up by not driving their SUVs -- they'll save it in gas purchases in no time.

Hey, now we can edit the subject line! Great!

[grecco1]

129. Celebrities sacrifice?

They are just like 99% of most other democratic celebrities. They bitch and moan about power and the like but when it comes to THEM having to have alternatives like this, well, of course not!! LOL!! I always want to laugh thinking of them lining up to have their income "redistributed".............

[sybylla]

18. They're 3 mile off the coast

You'd have to have binocs to see them for Pete's sake. How can that damage property values? Now perhaps they won't be so pretty to sail around but that is something completely different.

I'd still take wind farms any day!

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Ocean front property

Why do you think people by ocean front property, to look at windmills?

[Chico Man]

81. People sometimes buy oceanfront property to look at bridges

I know, turbines will probably not produce the same feeling.

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. Exactly

Turbines kind of spoil the view.

[SaintLouisBlues]

115. View?

They are three miles out to sea, not on the beach.

And if it still bothers them let them move to a less windy place with a view.

[midnight armadillo]

71. $500k homes

Yeah, who'd want to live in the houses that the common folk buy? :nopity: (avg. cape house price is like $450k these days)...

[JewelDigger]

6. I agree....

...they're clean, noiseless, and yeah they really are kinda cute. At least Cape Cod will know that they have 3/4's of their energy needs met if other sources of energy are 'unavailable' or prices skyrocket (please don't flame me with dissertations about supply/demand prices of the wind energy once other energy prices would soar).

[aquart]

16. They're NOISELESS? And the idiots are complaining?

Smite them.

What's the quote "With the rich and mighty, always a little patience"?

I'm losing my patience. The selfishness of these people is endless, bottomless, fucking infinite.

What do you want to bet they claim to be liberals?

[Yentatelaventa]

55. Cellphone towers are quiet too

The cellphone towers are NOISELESS and the idiots are complaining about them on mountaintops. What's up with that?

[maxsolomon]

80. gee i dunno

microwaves penetrating your BRAIN?

[stickdog]

123. Microwave antennas vs. wind that would be blowing anyway.

Which would you rather have in your neighborhood?

[arcane1]

2. I'll choose turbines over drilling platforms any day!

[hatrack]

3. So reducing W VA to a strip pit is fine, I guess

After all, rich and famous people don't have cottages there.

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!

[theHandpuppet]

14. Exactly what I was thinking, too

You took the words right outta my mouth!

[LosinIt]

64. It must have been while you were kissing me

[Feanorcurufinwe]

44. Have you read any background info on this project?

Have you read any background info on this project? Or just the one news story? Check out the links I provided.

Clearly, this is not a choice between putting a wind farm off Cape Cod and reducing W VA to a strip pit. It's a funny line, but muddled reasoning.

[stickdog]

124. Yes. And what is the best argument against clean power again?

???

[lightbulb]

4. Which is uglier...

Wind turbines or smog and oil spills?

It's hard not to see symbols of sanity such as wind turbines as anythiing but beautiful. I'd be happy to have them in my backyard!

[midnight armadillo]

70. Damn straight!

What do you prefer...some white smudges on the horizon, visible only on the clearest days, or those 'dangerous air' days when we're all advised to stay inside, avoid exercise, and avoid breathing outside air?

I will say that Cape Wind shouldn't get federal land for free - public subsidies for private corps never sits well with me - but considering the massive amounts of cash received by fossil and nuclear industries this wouldn't be the worst that could happen.

Besides, has this ABC reporter BEEN to the Cape & Islands any time in the past 20 years? McMansions and strip malls frickin' cover the place, especially at the shore. Those 'quaint' little cabins run for a cool $400k...

[damnyankee2601]

116. I kind of doub't you'd want one in your backyard.

Have you seen one up close?

On the other hand, there's a big difference between "backyard" and 3 miles away, unless you're rich, I guess.

[stickdog]

125. Sure, I want one in my backyard.

Then PG&E would have to start paying ME for a change.

[zekeson]

7. Now that is just annoying

Who are these damn self-centered celebs? Must not be Dems or they woulda been named...

On edit - uh, read article. Conkrite and someone one else I don't know. Yep, we need more alternative fuel unless, of course, it interferes with my convenience or life in anyway.

[conservdem]

40. Ted Kennedy is one of the opponents of the wind farm.

I live in Mass and I am in favor of the idea, but I think the gov needs to get a fair price for the use of the sea. I think we are not getting any money out of this deal.

BTW Kerry has not stated his position on it.

[JewelDigger]

42. *Cough, Choke, Xcuse me???????*

the gov needs to get a fair price for the use of the sea.

Does the government OWN the sea??? If you believe THAT you are in the wrong place here; however, if other DU'ers go along with that line of thinking than 'I' am in the wrong place.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. The government doesn't OWN the sea, neither does this company

The government doesn't OWN the sea, neither does this company. But if this company puts up this wind farm it will be using this area just as if it did own it. Recreationists, fisherman, etc, won't be able to use that area anymore. Wildlife in the area WILL be negatively impacted. Do you think the fish, marine mammals and birds in the area will be better or worse off if this development goes forward? Did you read any of the background material I provided?

[conservdem]

99. I think you are mistaken about this:

"Recreationists, fisherman, etc, won't be able to use that area anymore."

I am from Mass. and saw a news program about this. The developer said such uses are allowed in the area.

On edit: He could have been lying, but the opponent of the project did not dispute this issue.

[conservdem]

107. I have read some of the background material you provided and

have been keeping up on the issue. Now to your question: "Do you think the fish, marine mammals and birds in the area will be better or worse off if this development goes forward?" Yes, in the long run I think all these animals will be better off if the project goes forwad.

As to another point you raised in this thred--I agree that such projects should be subject to enviromental review.

[stickdog]

122. And if this stops a SINGLE OIL SPILL?

What will the fish, marine mammals and birds in the area say then?

That they don't like the unsightly windmills spaced 1/3 of a mile apart?

[conservdem]

48. you're "xcused"

maybe there is a good reason for the gov not seeking some income from the use of area, but I have not heard it yet. I do not think its such a bad idea to get some rental money or lease money for the area being used.

on edit: BTW what do you think of Teddy's position on this issue?

[JewelDigger]

60. Must EVERYTHING have a price?

Some things just ARE and belong to everyone ... wind power is just ONE of them. Solar power is another. This 'debate' makes me think of CA where the folks who have installed solar panels are being threatened with a 'tax' or somesuch ONLY b/c they are cutting into the power companies profits! The fee that they will 'have' to pay/coupled with the initial investment for the (expensive) solar panels will not make it cost beneficial in the long term. Hence, people will stop attempting to be 'self-sufficient/reliant'.

Apparently being 'needy' and reliant is oki with you (as long is there a profit to be had).

JD

P.S. I don't know what 'Teddy's' position is on the issue, so 'no comment'

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. Yes, everything does have a cost.

Yes, everything does have a cost. Yes, the wind blows free. But to harness wind power you've got to build stuff, put that stuff somewhere, transport the energy to where it can be used.


Comparing 130 wind turbines 420 feet high and covering 24 square miles to the solar panels that homeowners install on their roofs is a real case of apples and oranges.

[JewelDigger]

63. I'm sorry

to be honest, I didn't read the references that you provided (until now).

I guess I was just simplistically 'hooking onto a "big project" in the US which has/had the potential to harness natural and clean energy....something that we (the US), so sadly don't embrace, but I so wish that we actively strived towards....not just 'lip service', but the real deal (and I'm talkin' about YOU too all you SUV/Hummer drivers out there....)

I didn't realize this 'project' was 24 square miles large.

[conservdem]

101. I am against the kind of "tax" you mention being debating in CA.

I do not understand what you mean by: "Apparently being 'needy' and reliant is oki with you (as long is there a profit to be had)." Please explain.

[section321]

86. On the other hand, cheap rent for a wind project is an incentive...

... to promote the building of clean energy.

Clean energy is benefit in and of itself.

Not all benefits are quantifiable.

The stars see a benefit in the view as it currently is. They want to preserve this benefit. I see a greater benefit in the clean energy this facility would produce.

[RapidCreek]

73. Robert Kennedy Jr. is one of them

Wind-farm supporters draw foe in Kennedy family

By JACK COLEMAN
October 21, 2002

U.S. Sen. Edward Kennedy remains on the fence when it comes to the Nantucket Sound wind farm, choosing to await state and federal environmental reviews before deciding whether he supports the project.

The same cannot be said of his nephew, Robert Kennedy Jr., son of Ethel and the late Robert Kennedy and a senior attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Council.

Appearing earlier this month on "The Connection," a Boston-based syndicated radio show, Kennedy expressed vehement opposition to the project, saying it would impose far greater costs in environmental damage and visual blight than the benefits it would provide as renewable energy. More.....

---

More fucking hypocrits.....Lovely. That's the way to set an example boys! GOOOOOOD JOB! Very damn clever.

RC

[LauraK]

8. The Rocky Mountains must come down first.

Then we can put some artwork in the horizon.

[JewelDigger]

10. Yeah.....there's lots of shale oil in the Rockies

eom

[DinahMoeHum]

11. Typical NIMBY bullshit. . .

and RFK Jr. can blow it out his ass.

Excuse me while I reach for a Kleenex - NOT !!


:nopity:

[GreenGreenLimaBean]

46. I second that FZ

RFK is setting the Environmental back 30 years by trying to block
this one. I'm going to write the NRDC a very nasty letter basically
saying to kick RFK off their board or I will stop donating.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Wind turbines spin

Developers :vs: Residents


The residents spin:

http://www.saveoursound.org/windspin.html

http://www.saveoursound.org/faq.html


The developers spin:

http://www.capewind.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index

[Sufi Marmot]

13. They're actually pretty cool looking, IMHO...

I spent time in Sweden and Denmark this summer and they're all over the place there. I didn't find they detracted significantly from the landscape at all, even in places like Oland or Gotland, both of which contain UNESCO World Heritage Sites.

I'd much rather have a few windmills than a big smokestack from a coal-burning power plant (not that the rich and famous ever have to have those things within 50 miles of their gated communities...) Sheesh, how about taking one for the team, guys...?

-SM

[oneighty]

15. All them there

windmill thingies will use up all the wind and there will be no cooling breeze coming in off the ocean.

Jeez, even I can understand that!

Ed.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. avian mortality?

Bird kills. I would think on the ocean it's an even bigger issue.

[Kolesar]

19. New, slow turning turbines spare the birds

Modern wind turbines are designed to rotate slower to save the wildlife. There was a wind turbine off Califonia twenty years ago that was noted for killing wildlife. It was faster than 60 rpm.

If you slow the blades down to 20 or 30 rpm, the birds can actually see the blades and avoid them.

Migration routes are generally over 1000 feet up, so a 300 foot structure should never be problem for those migrating birds, at least that is the theory.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. These turbines are 420 feet high, not 300

These turbines are 420 feet high, not 300.


"Although these federal and state management agencies recommended year-round radar and acoustic monitoring, and broad-based habitat surveys, Cape Wind has announced that it will not comply with these recommendations."
- www.safewind.info

" Rodgers has rejected a call from the Massachusetts Audubon Society for Cape Wind to withdraw an application for the cable's land route from the wind farm."
- Cape Cod Times article, 12/6/02

"We are quite concerned that the ENF"s preliminary conclusions (at 7.5.3 on page 7-25) that avian risks are small or that bird use in the area is low are very premature and are based on inadequate data or no data at all. We cannot agree that available evidence supports the ENF's statement, "The probable absence of high use by birds is most important. Few species will be present or present long enough in the Project Area for significant risk to occur." We know of no data that could possibly support such a statement.

"The installation of turbine towers in this section of Nantucket Sound could have potentially devastating impacts on globally significant populations of migratory birds moving in and out of Massachusetts, as well as between Cape Cod and the islands."

Proponent has conducted 8 overflights (4 each in July and September) looking for terns and reported sighting a group of Roseate Terns on one of the July flights and no other terns on any of the flights. To conclude from this that tern presence on the Shoal is "'infrequent" not only ignores substantial periods of the year, but also the possibility of substantial variability in temporal and spatial utilization of the Horseshoe Shoal environment.
- Commonwealth Of Massachusetts Division of Fisheries & Wildlife

"This particular project site is an area with one of the highest concentrations of seaducks and terns on the Atlantic seaboard. The shoals at this location provide ample feeding opportunities for birds. The site is also located along a major migratory bird flightway. We do not agree with the ENF's unsupported conclusions that avian risks are small or that bird use in the area is low."
- Mass. Audubon

"It naturally follows that anyone with an interest in wildlife cannot be anything other than horrified at the proposed installation of 170 enormous towers with rapidly moving blades covering 28 square miles of this region. The proposed Cape Wind Farm spells disaster for bird life on the Cape and Islands. It would be an egregious act; one need not be a rocket scientist to understand the ramifications for sea birds dependent on this area for their continued existence."
- Bird expert E. Vernon Laux

[bahrbearian]

35. Exxxon Valdez

"It naturally follows that anyone with an interest in wildlife cannot be anything other than horrified at the proposed installation of 170 enormous towers with rapidly moving blades covering 28 square miles of this region. The proposed Cape Wind Farm spells disaster for bird life on the Cape and Islands. It would be an egregious act; one need not be a rocket scientist to understand the ramifications for sea birds dependent on this area for their continued existence."
- Bird expert E. Vernon Laux

RIGHT how many millions of cars are racing around the Northeast coast right now!!!!!! I'm sure that has effect but it's O.K.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Do two wrongs make a right?

[stickdog]

127. What? Are you really comparing the two?

What energy alternative are you advocating instead? Cold fusion?

[conservdem]

41. I care about the wildlife and still want the wind farm.

I hope Vernon Laux is wrong. Are you sure he is right? Could the large size and low rpm's of the blades make the danger to the birds mimimal?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. What I am sure of is that this issue is as complicated as any other.

What I am sure of is that this issue is as complicated as any other. Everyone who just hears 'wind energy' and assumes that it is a good project without examining the issues involved is not thinking. I'd encourage everyone to actually READ the links I included. They are arguments on both sides of the issue.

Personally I have no opinion either way on the project, I just object to the folks who are saying "it is good, the residents opposing it are scum" when they obviously have not studied the issues involved at all. There really are two or more sides to most issues.

The bottom line is that this project like any other, has to go through the environmental review process.

Residents:
http://www.saveoursound.org/windspin.html
http://www.saveoursound.org/faq.html
Developers:
http://www.capewind.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index
Environmental News Network article about wind energy:
http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2001/02/02092001/windbird_41856.asp

[GreenGreenLimaBean]

49. The issue here is Global Warming, not saving birds

If the nimbys get their way, the GOP will use this as a major
issue to NOT do anything about GW. Would you like that???

I have studied the issue and have visited wind farms in West Texas,
and they DO NOT HARM birds. But even if they did, I would still
support this project. At the rate GW is happening, the migration
routes you speak of will be irrevalent because the climate will
be too warm to support the type of migratory birds you advocate
protecting. Migratory birds typically fly @ levels above 200M
and at night about 1000M. The only time the birds fly @ lower
elevations are when confronted with a headwind. The only major
birdkill resulting from Windfarms was in Altamont Pass CA. There
were 183 deaths over a 2 year period. Now compare that with 57
million bird deaths per year from Automobiles....or 97 million
deaths per year from plate glass collisions.... or 1.5 million
from towers and bridges. Seems pretty insignificant.

<http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:HH2_GMZRjAgJ:www.nationalwind.org/pubs/avian98/15-Janss-Tarifa_Spain.pdf+wind+farms+bird+migration&hl=en&start=12&ie=UTF-8>
<http://www.rso.cornell.edu/kyotonow/cu/windfaqs.html>
<http://www.nfwhc.org/current/levy.htm>
<http://www.kbnl.ch/site/e/planen/energie/dok_windenergie.htm>
<http://www.newwindenergy.com/regional/mid-atlantic/faq.html>

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. No, the issue is whether this particular project should be built.

No, the issue is whether this particular project should be built.

Are you saying that all wind farms should be approved, regardless of the location or other details? No environmental review for wind-energy projects? Is that what you are favoring? I think any project, especially one like this that uses public resources, should go through a thorough environmental review and cost/benefit analysis.

----------

"The only major
birdkill resulting from Windfarms was in Altamont Pass CA. There
were 183 deaths over a 2 year period. Now compare that with 57
million bird deaths per year from Automobiles....or 97 million
deaths per year from plate glass collisions.... or 1.5 million
from towers and bridges. Seems pretty insignificant."



A significant loss of golden eagles during the early 1990s at California's Altamont Pass, one of the largest wind development areas in the country, sparked concern among conservation groups.

"The loss of 25 to 50 golden eagles in the area can have a big impact, because raptor population densities are low," said John Bianchi, communications director of the Audubon Society. "We feel there needs to be a balance between the needs of wind energy development and the needs of the birds that use the areas as their homes or migratory routes."

http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2001/02/02092001/windbird_41856.asp

[GreenGreenLimaBean]

117. No I'm not saying that, you are.

I am commenting on this particular project, and YES it needs
to go through for the reasons I stated.

[mbperrin]

28. And what do you suppose the impact on birds is

on oil field pits, which look like water, but are really caustic chemicals mixed with crude oil? Every drilling rig has them, and there are 100,000 wellsites in West Texas alone, but nobody boohoos about the birds who die there.

Actually there are several dozen windmills 60 miles away in McCamey, and I haven't heard anyone say that they had picked up dead birds there!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. The devil is in the details.

The devil is in the details. How big is the wind farm in McCamey compared to the proposal here? How big are the turbines compared to these turbines? Is the McCamey windfarm on private property? This proposal isn't. Do you actually know the avian mortality rates at the McCamey windfarm or are you just assuming it is zero cuz you "haven't heard anyone say that they had picked up dead birds there"? I could go on but I know, too many questions already, it makes it difficult to come up with snap judgements, life is so complicated....

[damnraddem]

24. And what if a whale breeches, jumps up 400 feet, and gets killed?

Just think of all the risks.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. Thanks for your thoughful input

:eyes:

[DS1]

32. you forgot your sarcasm hat

:eyes: :evilgrin:

[bahrbearian]

34. There's better chance to hit a bird with you car than with a Turbine

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Depends on where you put the turbine, and where you drive the car

[midnight armadillo]

72. Consider cats

The number of bird kills by household cats utterly dwarfs anything that the wind industry could ever hope to accomplish, even without careful design and siting of turbines to avoid doing so.

[section321]

75. My cat is a regular offender there....

Usually gets one a week.

[damnraddem]

22. This is happening all over the country.

A safe, nonpolluting energy source is being opposed because it's not 'aesthetic.' When I lived in the Bay Area, we drove out to the Altamont Pass a few times to see the wind farms -- they're fascinating. The best use of the words spewed by the anti-windfarm celebrities would be to power yet another wind turbine, this one running on their hot air -- it could be placed right on their beach, to maximize the power realized.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. Yes, wind turbines DO kill birds.

Yes, wind turbines DO kill birds.

"Wind is like any other type of energy resource," said Mark Glyde of the Northwest Energy Coalition. "You have to site it with the environment in mind."

http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2001/02/02092001/windbird_41856.asp

[no_arbusto]

39. Can't they install guards or screens around the blades?

Why can't they do something similar to a box fan where there is a guard that can keep birds from flying into the blades? It seems like a fairly simple task. I think offshore windmills are a great idea. They're alot less offensive than offshore oilrigs.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

47. I'm sure the company would say it would cost too much

I'm sure the company would say it would cost too much and reduce turbine efficiency too much. But go ahead, suggest it to them, maybe you've solved the problem.

[Xithras]

65. That wouldn't work

FYI, my sister was a studying to be a wildlife biologist at UC Davis in 1995 when they did a study on the birdkills in the Altamont Pass (in conjunction with UC Santa Cruz). The numbers? About 80 birds a year are killed by the 5000 or so windmills. That's doesn't sound like much until it's pointed out that the Altamont Pass windmill area sits smack dab in the middle of the last remaining communal nesting area for the threatened California Golden Eagle in the region. Those are 80 birds a year from a population that can't afford to lose one breeding pair.

Anyway, what they found is that the SIZE of the windmill had the most impact on the birdkill numbers for each tower. The bigger the blades, the SMALLER the number of kills. Why? Because the bigger blades turn slower and make more noise while generating the same amount of power. The raptors can see and hear the oncoming blades better, and have time to get out of the way before they get puree'd. The smaller, faster turning windmills were nicknamed "bird blenders".

With the size of the windmills proposed for this project, I'd venture a guess that birdkill numbers should be fairly low.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. Makes sense

[PartyPooper]

57. And, airplanes kill birds, too!

n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. Let's ban all airplanes then, is that what you are saying?

Let's ban all airplanes then, is that what you are saying?

Really I don't get it... are you folks saying that wind-energy projects should be exempt from environmental review?

Please spare me the bumper-sticker, soundbite answers. I'm totally in favor of alternative energy. Fossil fuels are dirty and running out anyway. There is no need to convince me that wind energy is a more viable solution, a better solution than fossil fuel fired or nuclear powered plants. But that doesn't mean that alternative energy projects shouldn't be subject to environmental review.

[Pastiche423]

50. Is Altamont Pass

in the East Bay about 30 or so miles from the city? And if so, are those the same type of windmills?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. Yes, and No.

Yes, that's Altamont Pass. No, these proposed windmills are much larger.

[w4rma]

25. The celebrities should find a *new* place for the project

Instead of just trying to stop it alltogether, do some research for the wind farm company and find them a new, suitable place, for the windmills.

I think that this solution would satisfy everyone.

[kwolf68]

30. Liberal celebraties are scum

Sorry, but with Barbara Striesand suing environmental groups and the incredible materialism and unsustainable consumption that goes on, and now this all these people they can f*** off.

I am so sick of hearing about how their lives are going to be so dis-rupted. I suppose if we could put wind turbines in inner city black neighborhoods we'd have a billion of them producing enough energy to light 5 states.

But...Since rich people don't like it, it will get nixed. Of course, they can afford to pay high energy bills and put 2 dollar gallon of gas into their gas guzzling SUV. But for the average Joe who actually makes this fuUUUU country work, he'll just have to suck it up...Screw that college fund for Junior...You gotta pay high bills because these dickheads didn't want to go to wind energy.

RE BIRDS: Yes, it is a concern and several groups are working on best ways to prevent (or minimize) harm to wildlife.

[w4rma]

38. Calm down, Kwolf, they aren't against the windmills

They are opposed to the location of them. I'm sure that the celebreties can find a new location for them if they want to try.

And, they have a point about *this* location.

I cannot understand why some people would prefer to totally and rudely insult our allies over a relatively minor disagreement.

[section321]

82. You put the windmills where the wind is. Period.

.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

90. might as well cover Mt. Washington

it's one of the windiest places in the world. :eyes:

[section321]

92. Where is Mt Washington?

There's probably more than one in the US

[conservdem]

102. Mt. Wash is in New Hampshire.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

106. PLease allow me to address your ignorance

Perhaps the windiest places in the world

http://www.mountwashington.org/


One of the most beautiful spots in the world too!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

109. Given the choice between Mt. Washington and Nantucket Sound

Given the choice between Mt. Washington and Nantucket Sound I'd put 'em in the sound lol

Ski Tuckerman's!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

113. I've actually never been (or "climbed" as the bumper sticker says)

but it's winds are world renowned, and I know many a scary anecdote of hikers cheating death on its broad and hostile flanks.

O.K. let's build the windmills off the Cape. :-(

[maxanne]

118. Mt Wash

is not only home to big wind, it's home to some of the worst weather around. The rime ice wouldn't be good for the turbines, I fear. Nor the constant assault of snow and subzero temps - not to mention the difficulty involved in working on the windmills outside in freezing winds of 100 mph.

I live down the street from Mt. Washington - it's beautiful and deadly.

[section321]

114. Oh yeah, someone from NH told about that once.

Probably a tad too windy...


:-)

[stickdog]

128. I can. Because they have their heads up their selfish rich asses. (NT)

[DS1]

33. Personally I'd love to see them in the distance

It's the sign of PROGRESS you f*cks!

[stevedeshazer]

53. What is YOUR choice?

This:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:CS9Ah8BSW_oC:

Or this?:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:RBTFIGPklycC:members.tripod.com/lqpvhs/finalwebpage/pictures/wind1.jpeg

Which kills the most birds again?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. No environmental review for wind-energy projects?

No environmental review for wind-energy projects? Is that what you are proposing?

[stevedeshazer]

69. I'm not proposing anything

How did you get that from my post?

[Rich Hunt]

89. hahahaha

The picture on top is something I only have to go a mile or so to see (and breathe).

The real point in this discussion is: why do we know about this project and not all of the other controversial projects that have gone into other communities. I think that's ultimately why I feel annoyed by this story.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

95. You know about this story because the Republicans using it to attack

You know about this story because the Republicans using it to attack one of our candidates. And all the people with the knee-jerk reactions are buying right into their spin.

[conservdem]

104. Which candidate are the Repubs using this to attack?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. Kerry, who's waiting for the EIS to be complete

Kerry, who's waiting for the EIS to be complete before coming out in favor of or against the project. Since the project is in Mass., he is expected to weigh in.

The Republicans know that many on the left will react just the way many in this thread did, totally advocating the project before knowing any of the details, and then the Repubs ask "Why isn't Kerry backing it?" The answer of course, is that Kerry is a thoughtful person who wants facts before making decisions. His solid environmental record (http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103#Environment) is well known, as is his emphasis on alternative energy ( http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000008353 ).

Personally, I hope the EIS gives the project the thumbs up.

[maxanne]

56. rich people

have bought all of the shoreline in places like the Vineyard and Nantucket - so no one else can even see the ocean. This sure would screw things up for them - and they richly deserve it.

The property values are so screwed up in places like Nantucket, that a friend of mine had to move away. He was a teacher in the school system there - but got booted out of his apartment every May (before the end of the school year) and couldn't get back in till October (after the start of the school year.)

Eat the rich.

[TennesseeWalker]

58. Stop fighting windmills.

lol...don't be so quioxtic.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. The pollster

[Wonder]

66. oh I love this one

celebrities are protesting wind turbines NOT the administration. Gee don't you love all that comfort... Yes I know I know... a handful of celebs have been vocal.. but this in the scheme of things seems absurd.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. Don't you see you are being manipulated by the writer of the article?

Don't you see you are being manipulated by the writer of the article?

"Celebrities Protest Mass. Wind Farm"

the focus of the article is on the fact that they are 'celebrities'. Not the relative merits and disadvantages of the project. Then the NIMBY charge ( always levelled at local residents when they oppose anything.) It is all designed to play on our resentment of the rich, famous and powerful.

As I've said before, I have no opinion as to whether it's a good proposal or not - too complicated for me to decide from 2000 miles away. That's what the environmental review is for right? I mean they cost a bundle and take months to complete - how could I expect to come up with the right answer by reading a few third-hand articles and some pro- and anti- spin?

But it amazes me how people react to things emotionally. Throw together a 100% politically correct notion like alternative energy, an easy to villianize group (celebrities), and a loaded buzzword like NIMBY, and suddenly no one can think calmly...

[section321]

77. No we are not.

The fact is they are protesting a clean energy project.

That's it. That's the fact.

They don't want it to "ruin" they're view. Fuck THEM! Our country needs this kind of project and they should support it.

Oil is the problem, not unattractive vistas.


p.s. I think wind mills look cool. Like a previous poster said, they are a sign of progress...

[section321]

78. No we are not.

The fact is they are protesting a clean energy project.

That's it. That's the fact.

They don't want it to "ruin" they're view. Fuck THEM! Our country needs this kind of project and they should support it.

Oil is the problem, not unattractive vistas.


p.s. I think wind mills look cool. Like a previous poster said, they are a sign of progress...

[republicansareevil]

88. Feanorcurufinwe...

I don't know that much about wind farms in general, much less this particular project, but I do agree with you on one thing: many people are much too quick to form opinions about complicated matters without trying to inform themselves about the surrounding issues and too susceptible to accepting stories at face value without analyzing the motives of the people writing them. Owners of wind farms are out to make a buck like anyone else, and yes -- wind farms should be subject to environmental review like any other project. I'll tell you something else. I'm an environmentalist and I value nature. And one of the things I value about it is its beauty. If it turns out that this wind farm project is environmentally sound but ruins the scenic value of the area. (I don't know whether either of those will turn out to be true), I still think that's an important consideration when weighing the value of this project (note I did not say the only consideration). There are many scenic areas in this country I still have yet to visit, and I wouldn't want the beauty of these places marred unnecessarily.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

93. A voice of reason! thanks

[section321]

74. This is the kind of thing that kills us...

People read this and get pissed off. "Fuc&ing hypocrites!" they scream. I scream it with them.

This NIMBY crap from people is why nothing gets done. Wind power is a the ultimate in "renewable" energy. The wind just keep blowing. So what if alters the look of the landscape. That's the trade off. You get something for nothing. The windmills, and tidal energy bunkers have to go somewhere. If this is a good location for wind, this is where you put the windmills.

We don't need people celebrities saying they support the environment, and then coming out against a project like this becuase it will ruin their view.

Its counterproductive and feeds right into the right-wing claims that we're all just a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.

I'm pissed! :mad:

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. Any large or small project

Has to get approved and that gives the opportunity for a community to fight something they feel will destroy the nature of their community. If you like the turbines so much, let's put them near you, but I wouldn't want to be staring at them out my window either.

[Aaron]

98. Aren't they three miles out to sea or something?

Can you see that far? I don't know if I could... I guess I've never tried.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

110. Yes the view is justone of many issues covered by the environmental review

[stickdog]

120. Why not?

Are you that shallow?

Would you rather know a coal burning power plant in a poor neighborhood was picking up the slack?

[section321]

85. I would welcome them.

And they aren't "near" these people. The windmills are across the sound from the people. Its simply a matter of the windmills interfering with their view.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to protest, I'm saying they shouldn't. I'm saying it goes against the promotion of cleaner energy.


If we are going to replace hydrocarbons with clean energy sources, we will need to build industrial scale facilities.

I live in California, we felt the full wrath and fury of NIMBY during the rolling blackouts. There is not enough generating capacity in Calfornia to meet our consumption needs. No one wants an energy plant in their area. This would be an energy plant that would not pollute the air.

There are trade offs, but we can't oppose everything. We have a accept reasonable development or sell everything and start living in caves. I'm for reasonable development.

And, if these developers are getting money from the govt to suport them, GREAT! That's exactly what we want!

Hey! This was my 300th post! :bounce:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

94. Did you read any of the background material? It is not only about the view

Did you read any of the background material? It is not only about the view.

http://www.saveoursound.org/windspin.html

Personally, I agree with you, I think they look good.

[section321]

96. Yes, I read the background material and I still disagree with opponents

Life is about tradeoffs. If we want to get off oil, we will have to BUILD alternative power generation facilities.

In order to provide the power people expect, and which there is demand for, these facilities have to be built on a competitive scale.

Take for example the wave power facility at Islay in the UK. (www.wavegen.com). It looks like an ulgy box shoved into a seacliff. But, it provides all of the island's electricity with zero emissions. ZERO! There aren't very many people living on the island, so the facility does not need to be very big.

If we're going to oppose the construction of such large scale power facilities, alternative energy will never suceed. Bush and his buddies will just say, "Look, we try to build the kind of energy they say is good, and they oppose that too. These people are just opposed to everything."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

97. Then you'll know not to characterize their opposition as all about view

Then you'll know not to characterize their opposition as all about view.

And I hope you acknowledge that this project, just like any other, should be subject to environmental review.

[stickdog]

121. It's a load of NIMBY crap.

I don't see a single solid argument against them if you consider the alternatives.

Do you?

[Chico Man]

76. Is ahhnuld protesting?

I believe he has some property down there on the cape. Someone should ask him what he thinks.

[Loonman]

79. Well, then.....

They better not say boo about nuclear if they don't want the wind farm.

[slor]

87. Would they prefer a view...

complete with an oil slick outside their homes? Converting to this form of energy creation needs to happen NOW! So they can go stuff it!

[curse10]

100. For more sources, from both sides

go here http://www.capecodonline.com/special/windfarm/

I've been following this since I moved to massachusetts and haven't yet decided which side to take. Both sides have pros and cons.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

111. Excellent link, lots of info, independent sources

Excellent link, lots of info, independent sources. Although to be honest I already know way more about this distant project then I ever wanted. After the last couple days I bet I am the most informed resident of Montana about the Cape Wind project lol. Meanwhile the forest fires are raging just a few miles from my house.

[pfitz59]

103. Lighthouses and foghorns!

Wind turbines rank up there in aesthetic appeal! Folks pay millions to live near picturesque lighthouses with a foghorn in the distance. Idiots need to let this happen! How can one be progressive without embracing progress?

[Ouabache]

105. All these back and forth arguments leave me spinning...

n/t

[alaine]

112. I'm confused. Last summer Christie Brinkley and Billy

Joel protesting the nuclear power plant near where they live at the Hamptons, and now these numnuts are against renewable resources and clean power sources?

What is all that environmental protection activism about anyway, movie promotion?

These people don't know how lucky they are. I just moved away from one of the most beautiful regions of the country, which is now one of the most polluted, because we spent so much of summer in the dangerous range for ozone, thanks to the Tennesse Valley Authority power plant and the Union Paper mill.

Wind turbines? If only...

[stickdog]

119. Damn, the headline sure fooled me.

I thought this was about the Kerry campaign.

[HungryLoser]

126. Hmm?.. Which view?.. Wind Turbine, or smog? Wind

Turbine?.. Smog?

Wind Turbine!

With less "Rolling Blackouts"