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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 01:55 AM
Original message
Prairie Dog Won't Get Federal Protection
DENVER -- The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service rejected a request Tuesday to consider federal protection for the white-tailed prairie dog, prompting the threat of a lawsuit by environmental groups.

The agency said in findings published in the Federal Register that there wasn't enough scientific information to warrant studying whether the prairie dog should be placed on the federal endangered species list.

Erin Robertson, a biologist with the Denver-based Center for Native Ecosystems, said the groups that sued to force Fish and Wildlife to consider their petition might sue to overturn the ruling.

"I think it's a pretty indefensible finding," Robertson said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-prairie-dogs,0,7225575.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Aren't prairie dogs considered a nuisance
in some places?
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. nature can be so annoying
the nerve of those animals.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. There you go
You can have a serious extinction problem in one state, but laws get applied to all states. And environmentalists aren't known for being rational on making the differentiations from one place to another. It ends up being one more drop in the "evil liberal" bucket. I wish we could have conversations without 1,000 interest groups from both sides muddying the waters.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. environmentalists aren't known
environmentalists aren't known for being rational on making the differentiations from one place to another
says who? that's quite a generalization buster. I gues republicans agree with that statement, I don't. Count the animals survey the habitats- science requires much more rationality than dominionism.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. My observation
And yes, Republicans in those red counties are driven crazy by environmentalists who try to treat the problems in their area as exactly the same as somewhere else. The problems of logging are different in the east than in the northwest than even in Montana. Until we stop trying to create generalized solutions for varying problems, we're going to lose more than we gain. I am as annoyed by extremists on the left as I am by extremists on the right.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. application of the law
This is a situation dependent problem. If a species is endangered by commercial exploitation then for law enforcement purposes it must be given blanket protection as point of origin can be difficult to impossible to ascertain. Furthermore, most people do not have a clue as to the requirements for a species' continued survival, only biologist can determine this. Science sets the requirements and conservationist take up the banner.
I cannot think of a situation where what you state is applicable. Could you give me an example?
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Livestock can break their legs in the holes the prairie dogs dig
This is nothing but a sop to ranching interests.
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Lenape85 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Not exactly
http://www.prairiedogs.org/myth.html

Prairie dogs are the subject of more myths than perhaps any other wildlife species on the Great Plains, despite the fact that scientific findings have debunked most of these misconceptions. When you hear people or the media communicating a myth about prairie dogs, correct them! Tell them what you have learned about prairie dogs and refer them to this Web site.

MYTH: Prairie Dogs Are Everywhere
Actually, black-tailed prairie dogs occupy less than 1 percent of the land they occupied a century ago. 6*

Remaining prairie dog acreage is usually in the form of isolated and fragmented colonies that cannot expand beyond their current boundaries. Especially alarming is the lack of healthy prairie dog complexes (multiple colonies occurring within close proximity of each other) that sustain the multitude of animals who depend on the prairie dog for food or the habitat they create.

MYTH: Prairie Dogs Multiply Like Rabbits
In reality, black-tailed prairie dogs have a low rate of reproduction compared with other small mammals. They breed only once a year, and the average litter size is three to four pups. 9* Furthermore, when confronted with physical barriers to expansion, prairie dogs practice infanticide, resulting in the destruction of up to 50 percent of litters.10*

MYTH: Prairie Dogs Spread the Plague
In fact, prairie dogs rarely transmit plague to humans. This disease does pose a significant threat to prairie dog populations. Because prairie dogs lack immunity to plague, a plague epizootic will kill almost 100 percent of a population. Prairie dogs usually die within a week after contact with the plague bacterium. Other mammals, such as mice, cats, and dogs, carry the plague.

There are only a handful of cases in which prairie dogs have directly transmitted plague to humans. Some of those cases involve humans shooting and skinning prairie dogs. The chances of getting plague from a prairie dog are much less than the chances of being struck by lightning. Plague in humans is easily treatable with standard antibiotics, the recovery rate is high, and recovery time is fairly brief. Companion animals, however, should be kept off prairie dog towns in order to minimize the risk of contracting plague.

The Colorado Department of Health recommends against poisoning prairie dogs to control plague.

To see what John Pape of the Colorado Department of Health and the Environment has to say about the plague topic, click here. For more information, read Rocky Mountain Animal Defense's Prairie Dogs, People and the Plague fact sheet. To download a PDF version of the fact sheet, click here. To learn more about PDF files, click here.

MYTH: Prairie Dogs and Cattle Can't Coexist
Contrary to what many farmers, ranchers and the livestock industry assert, prairie dogs and cattle have a mutually beneficial relationship. Prairie dogs improve the forage for cattle, and cattle grazing allows prairie dog colonies to expand in mid-grass prairie. Both cattle and prairie dogs have demonstrated a preference for grazing together, just as bison and prairie dogs have historically preferred each other's company. The Journal of Range Management has published several articles that confirm these findings. 8*

Cattle-grazing, however, causes extensive ecological damage and is a poor substitute for nature's intended bison/prairie dog relationship.11* To learn more about how your diet could harm prairie dogs, click here.

MYTH: No One Will Miss Prairie Dogs When They're Gone
Those who directly depend on prairie dogs–ferruginous hawks, burrowing owls, golden eagles, coyotes, and black-footed ferrets, to name a few–would miss them dearly.

Ferrets inhabit prairie dog burrows and depend on prairie dogs for more than 95 percent of their dietary needs. The war against the black-tailed prairie dog, which began at the beginning of the twentieth century, is the main reason the black-footed ferret is endangered.

The swift fox and ferruginous hawk also depend on prairie dogs for food, and their numbers have declined along with the prairie dogs'. The mountain plover and burrowing owl depend on the habitat prairie dogs create, and their numbers have also declined throughout their ranges. There are many others–small mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, plants, and insects–whose worlds are crumbling as prairie dogs and their towns continue to be destroyed.

Of course, all of us who respect and cherish life in all of its wondrous forms would dearly miss the prairie dog too.

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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Great information!
Thanks for posting.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. dearly miss the prairie dog
So would I. My dogs have been here as long as i have. I don't shoot them like some ranchers do. Their population hasn't changed since i bought this place. I do try to control the coyotes, they seem to do more damage to my young deer and calves than any other predators. I have some great pictures of Burrowing Owls with young sitting on the sides of dog holes.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. It's more than ranching interests.......
..the cowboys just don't like the inconvenience, plus they like shootin' at 'em ... Thanks for posting the information!
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. super post, meant to say that, thanks n/t
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. I find other Florida drivers a nuisance
Edited on Wed Nov-10-04 02:17 PM by Jen6
but I never consider exterminating them!

If we can't understand that all nature is interconnected, then we'll soon see ourselves on the Endangered species list (at that point, it'll be too late to save any life).
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. the Bush administration doesn't care about this
the earth was given to them by God to rape and strip bare.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. The GOP shouldn't mess with their namesakes!
The environmental groups should put a call in to these guys



Rested, Relaxed and Ready to Rumble

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. black footed ferret
The Black footed Ferret is the real issue here. Prairie dogs are taking it on the chin, to be sure they occupy only a small percentage of their former range and latter day advocates of manifest destiny won't be happy until the range is as sure a money producer as the feedlot. Prairie dogs certainly need the protection and should be repatriated to portions of their former range, but they are not in immediate danger of extinction.

The Black Footed Ferret, on the other hand, is on the verge of extinction. Reduced to a handful of individuals twice in recent decades and susceptible to introduced distemper, they exist now in a few locations, totaling a few hundred individuals last I checked. They are listed Endangered, requiring full protection. They feed exclusively upon prairie dogs. In order to fulfill the ESA sufficient prairie dog populations must be maintained. It's all a question of how much.

bu$h and his greedhead rancher buds will lose this one. If they don't change the rules.
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cubsfan forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thank you for the information!
It's always better to have the facts before acting. :-)

Professor 2
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm surprised - when I was
Edited on Wed Nov-10-04 10:28 AM by FlaGranny
in Montana a few years ago, prairie dogs were ubiquitous. We were horseback riding and there were so many prairie dog holes that we had to go slowly to protect the horses. The ranch owner said he lost horses and cattle to the holes regularly. It's hard to imagine they need to be protected, but perhaps they are disappearing in farmed land. If they need some more prairie dogs, I know where they can get them, but perhaps the ones I saw were the other species.

Edit: I see from the post above, that the reason there are so many prairie dogs in the area I visited may be that there are no ferrets there to eat them. It's best to not mess with mother nature.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The ranch owner said he lost horses and cattle to the holes regularly
I've been ranching in west TX for close to 25 yrs now and I've never seen or heard of a local rancher loosing livestock to prairie dog holes. Talked to the vet, he's never treated for broken legs due to their holes. I think it's more the ranchers trying to stop the competition for grass land.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Interesting. I believe you, but
Edited on Wed Nov-10-04 12:13 PM by FlaGranny
I also believe that it would be very, very easy to lose a horse to a prairie dog hole, if you're not very careful where you ride and how fast you go. The only safe ground on that ranch where I visited was stony ground. There are mountain lions, a few wolves, and lots of bears which can spook the horses and cattle into running and forgetting where the holes are, when they predate the calves and foals. I know that livestock are very savvy about the prairie dog holes, but we all know what livestock are like when they panic.

Do you have many predators where you ranch in Texas? Maybe that could be the difference.

The ranch I visited had 8000 acres, that butted right up to the Continental Divide. He leased grazing to a few hundred head of cattle and had separate grazing for his horses. The bulk of his income came from hunting big game and from "dudes." The ONLY thing that the prairie dog holes could do to damage his income was injury to his own herd of horses, about 50 of them.

Edit: The rancher also had income from logging on his property (which, interestingly, also increased the prairie dogs' living quarters.)
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. if you're not very careful where you ride and how fast you go.
Don't ride through prairie dog towns. Unsafe practice, endangers you horse and your life.

(Do you have many predators where you ranch in Texas?)
Mostly coyotes, bobcat, very few cougars.

(The bulk of his income came from hunting big game)
I have a hunting operation and run cows.

I share a small town of dogs with the ranch to the west of me. My side covers about 1/4 mile, his about1 mile. Neither of us have had any livestock injured due to prairie dog holes.
Prairie dogs keep the weeds and trees from taking over good grass land by eating when plants are young.

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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Indeed, we were very careful where we rode.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-04 02:13 PM by FlaGranny
The only safe places were on the stony roads.

The ranch I visited had prairie dog towns EVERYWHERE the ground wasn't stone hard and rocky. Every pasture and hillside was absolutely riddled with holes. We rode over the hillsides at times, but always letting the horses pick their way. The horses are better at that than their riders are. ;-)

I certainly believe you 100%, but I also believe this Montana rancher. I saw the thousands and thousands of burrows simply everywhere the ground wasn't too hard for the prairie dogs to dig them. He had absolutely no economic interests at stake other than the loss of his horses (only about 50). The cattlemen who leased a small part of his property absorbed their own losses. His property certainly wasn't overgrazed, with less than 300 animals on about 3000 acres (the rest was mountains) of good grassland and rotated pastures.

I believe the difference might be in the predator population - which is high on the slopes of the Rockies. Cattle and horses are not hard to spook, as you know, into running willy nilly and getting themselves hurt. Horse are hurt all the time because of being spooked and running into and through fences, falling off cliffs, getting hit by cars, etc. When that happens and the horse happens to step into a hole and break his leg - well, I can't believe it doesn't happen when there are as many as I saw. It is perhaps a different kind of prairie dog which spreads out its towns over wider areas? Must admit I'm not that familiar with them. My horse and cow experiences are mostly from areas where there are no prairie dogs.

As an aside, also went riding in Colorado and did not see one prairie dog town in the places we rode.

Edit: Would you believe this is the most extensive prairie dog discussion I've ever had. :-)

Another edit: I love all animals and would hate to see the dogs hunted to extinction.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. you nailed it
Edited on Wed Nov-10-04 12:20 PM by blindpig
Dog colonies can take up a few acres but relative to the amount of space its insignificant. Geez, ride your horses elsewhere people!
Yes, they can consume a good bit of vegetation but these things are relative. To the ranchers who can't abide a little competition from our native wildlife I would ask 2 questions. 1)How many cattle are you grazing per acre? Are you leasing federal(my)land?

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bendeminga Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. here, they're an erosion problem...
They build close to the elevated railroads and burrowing a maze of tunnels beneath the tracks! They are in the kudzu mainly and blamed for lots of crop depravation here.
Leasing land comes with responsibilties and rights as well. If I were leasing your land and there were non-endagered species of animals causing problems you would either: Stop leasing the land to me or do something about the animals or give me the right to do something about the animals.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. leasing
many western ranchers seem to feel that it is their god given right to use federal land as they see fit. These leases are priced under market. The holders of leases often treat them fiefs, passing them down over generations. These federal lands are often abused to the point of desertification. Clear streams become diseased mudholes. My point is that these ranchers wouldn't have it any other way. Other than having the land deeded over to them directly.

By all means deny prairie dogs the use of your railroad embankments but allow them some place where they can continue their existence. They were here first.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. You have prairie dogs in Georgia?
Based on your username, and the reference to kudzu, it sounded like you were talking about prairie dogs in Georgia, but there are no known colonies of prairie dogs in Georgia, as far as I've ever read of. And I've also never heard of kudzu growing on the Great Plains where prairie dogs to live. Are you thinking of some species of gopher instead?
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Very well stated.....
Also, there have been many studies done on irradicating prairie dogs will muck up the ecosystem. It will affect many species in the food chain.
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Goathead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wasn't this a big issue in the South Dakota Senatorial race?
The Daily Show did a skit a bout it last night and I didn't know what they were talking about. This obviously the government kow-towing to ranchers.
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