The Pope they loved but could not obey

[kskiska]

John Paul was a Pope who Catholics loved but disagreed with. His long spell in office represents the deferral of a debate about the fundamentals of the faith.

(snip)

He was a charismatic man. The vast congregations at his open-air rallies were dazzled by him. That is not to say they were entirely persuaded by him. They no more took their theology from the words he spoke - many of them - than did the thousands who turned out for the Queen's Jubilee take theirs from her.

The church has lost the argument on contraception. All that fundamentalist ardour and all that theological sophistry has failed to persuade ordinary catholics that the demands of salvation require them to take a chance on conception every time they make love. In parishes, clergy and their congregations first of all worked out an informal, slightly hypocritical way of dealing with that.

A priest with a fretful woman in confession might say that of course the rules forbade her to take the pill, but there was that little clause in the church's teachings which allowed for the exercise of an informed conscience. 'Do you get my drift, Mrs O'Connor.' And then, Mrs O'Connor and millions of others simply stopped going to confession.

more…
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1451208,00.html

[Old and In the Way]

1. Ain't that the truth.

I'll bet 95% of Catholics who receive communion, don't go to confession.

And the teachings on contraception are a joke.
My mom was as a devout a Catholic as one could be....I know she used birth control. My even more devout Catholic uncle was her OB/GYN and he supplied it to her.

[Skittles]

12. it is just a bunch of hypocrisy

I'm surprised so many people put up with it

[cap]

15. the article says it best

What many of them will be looking for in the next Pope is that same charm and energy; they will hardly get that. They will not be looking forward to a Pope who nurtures the same doctrinal fundamentalism as John Paul did. They did not love him for his teaching. They forgave him his teachings because they loved him as a man.

[scarletlib]

2. that is true

i practiced birth control and my priest way back when said basically the same thing as in the article, never went to confession except on about 3 occasions but that wasn't the issue i discussed with the priest.

you can look in the pews and know what is going on: families with just one or two kids as opposed to five or six.

I had tremendous respect for this man. However, he was not good for women. I am one of those divided religious people. I am a converted catholic who is agnostic on most days. yet I love the best traditions and practices of the Church. I haven't been to Mass in years but I do miss it. I think for me the beauty of the service and the love that can come from the service has deep spiritual meaning for me. It is a way i can express my spirituality and love for my fellow human.

but... I just don't go now as I cannot support the direction the Church has taken on women's issues.

[Matilda]

3. Ah, Scarletlib, read these words:

"Great changes in institutions are led by people on the inside.
Those who will change the Catholic Church are those who remained
loyal During John Paul's long reign; the many thousands of Catholics
who gave up and walked away will play no part in shaping the Church
of the future."

I believe that - if you love the Church itself, but not necessarily
the people running it, come back and play your part. I believe that
two things are intrinsic to being a Catholic - belief in the
teachings of the Christ of the Gospels, and the Mass. Everything
else is man-made, and therefore open to error - if I truly believe
the Pope was wrong on certain issues (and I do), I won't let him
drive me out of the Church.

I respected Pope John Paul's tremendous intellect, and his instinct
for communication - only John XXIII rivalled him for being instantly
recognisable all over the world. But I believe he did try to roll
back Vatican II, and the numbers leaving the Church are a testament
to this. If his successor does try to carry on his work to the
letter, I think people will leave in ever increasing numbers.

For this reason, what I mourn is the failure of the intelligent man
of the people who ascended the Papal throne 26 years ago to fulfil
the hopes of Catholics everywhere to carry on the work begun by
John XXIII and Vatican II. I know I'm not alone, and for that
reason I hang on, as do many. Please join us.

[kskiska]

4. I've heard very little, if any, mention of Pope John XXIII

in this 3-day Pope-a-thon. He was truly beloved. Too bad he had such a short time as Pope.

[Matilda]

6. It was exciting to be around when he came on the scene.

Pius XII was Pope when I was growing up, a distant figure shut up
in the Vatican, known only through official portraits. Then along
came John, throwing open the windows of the Vatican and the Church
itself, warm, loving and welcoming to all.

I've heard many people talk over the past few days about JPII
reaching out to people of other faiths, and indeed he did, but it
was a process started by John. During WWII he saved hundreds of
Jewish children in Turkey, where he was Papal Nuncio, by issuing
them with baptismal certificates so the Nazis wouldn't round them
up and send them to the camps. The Vatican was furious, regarding
it as a kind of blasphemy, but he calmly carried on. He also
welcomed to the Vatican the son-in-law of Nikita Khruschev, which
outraged some die-hard conservative Catholics, but how much better
that was than refusing to have anything to do with him because he
was a communist. It later enabled Pope John to assist in reopening
dialogue between Khruschev and Kennedy after the Cuban Missile
Crisis. This to me was true Christianity, in the tradition of the
parable of the Good Samaritan, but there are still those today who
just don't get it.

He was such a wise and good man, and it is indeed sad that we had
him for such a short time.

[regnaD kciN]

10. I might speculate that those who praise John Paul II the most...

...probably would like to expunge John XXIII from the annals of history.

In many ways, JPII's papacy was an exercise in rolling back the Roman Catholic Church to the time before Pope John and Vatican II.

:-(

[scarletlib]

5. your words inspire me

i have been thinking about going back. i do miss the Mass.

[Matilda]

7. Please keep thinking about it -

you have as much right to be in the Church as anyone else.

[SharonAnn]

8. Thank you, but no thank you. I spent decades trying and I'm

now of the belief that as long as women keep supporting it in any way, they have no reason to address the issues that hurt us. They treat us badly, we withdraw, they now have consequences to their behavior. Without consequences, there will be no change in behavior.

It's not been easy, but I know it's right (for me) to do that. No money, no volunteer time, no emotional support, no lending of my presence to make you think that I support it.

[MollyStark]

9. Bravo to you

The catholic church is not the only place to find a word of God. As long as women support the church the church will never change, why should they?

[regnaD kciN]

11. But what if it isn't a matter of _walking_ away...?

What if you're a divorced and remarried ex-Roman Catholic? What if the breakup of your first marriage occured against your will and despite your best efforts to save it? What if your priest informed you that he had no doubt that your case qualified for an annulment, but that you unfortunately had no way of procuring the evidence that would prove it, so "there's nothing we can do?" What if the one option you're given is, quite simply, to live a strictly celibate life until your ex realizes her error, dumps her new spouse and walks out on her family to reunite with you? :rofl: What if you're told that, should you not be able to live such a life, and find a new love to share it with, you're an "adulterer" who must be kept from receiving Communion the rest of your life?

(Yes, there's still a little residual anger there...)

You have to realize that many of those who are no longer Roman Catholics didn't just "walk away" freely -- they were driven away.

:-(

[cap]

14. driven away is the word....

a lot of local priests have a lot of influence on their parishioners and dont have the people skills.

[Skittles]

13. how can you respect a misogynist?

how?

[cap]

16. come back and stand firm

at some point we will rise from the pews and stop the silence that gives the lie.