Britain needs a declaration of independence from America

[struggle4progress]

Tony Blair's successors will have to fashion a foreign policy less obsessed with the US and more concerned with the rest of the world

Andrew Rawnsley
Sunday February 11, 2007
The Observer

... The United Kingdom and the United States will remain firm friends. Their histories, economies and cultures are too entwined for it to be otherwise. They will continue to co-operate in the struggle against Islamist terrorism. Often, they will have mutual interests which will put them on the same side in global arguments.

That said, the relationship will never be the same again. And Tony Blair is one of the reasons why it will change. He has not been the Prime Minister he expected to be. He entered Downing Street as an instinctively pro-European leader who thought it was his destiny to settle Britain's relationship with Europe. He ends his premiership with it most defined by his relationship with the United States. The guiding principle of Mr Blair's foreign policy has been to get as close as he could to the American President, whoever he was. He was Bill Clinton's closest chum, then George W Bush's best buddy. As Mr Blair acknowledges, he has paid a high 'political penalty' for that. What he or Britain got in return is not clear, even to some of his closest colleagues. 'Iraq has been a total disaster,' says one minister who can be normally counted as a great Blair loyalist.

One of the unintended consequences of his adherence to America is to make it more likely that his successors will put some distance between themselves and Washington. Gordon Brown talks coolly, if imprecisely, about adopting a stance which puts 'Britain's interests first'. David Cameron has described himself as 'a liberal conservative rather than a neoconservative' who would be 'solid but not slavish in our friendship with America'. A Conservative government would not join those who believe in 'recklessly poking the United States in the eye', but nor would it be 'America's unconditional associate in every endeavour'. Mr Cameron is not anti-American. Neither is Gordon Brown. But they do sense the demand in Britain for our own declaration of independence from America.

Globescan regularly conducts a massive poll of attitudes towards the United States by sampling the opinion of 26,000 people across 25 countries. The latest survey finds antagonism towards America at an intense pitch. Even in countries such as Poland which are traditionally warm towards the US, public opinion has turned very sour. Britain is becoming almost as anti-American as France has historically been. Just a third of Britons now regard the United States as a force for good. Even if a future Prime Minister could convince himself that it would be sensible to do another Iraq, he would have huge difficulty persuading his colleagues or the public that he had not gone mad ...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,,2010519,00.html

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. run away! Run Awayyyyy!

:rofl:

[Downtown Hound]

2. I will personally help them if they decide to throw a tea party

In my opinion, the more isolated America currently is, the better off it will be for all of us, even us Americans. We need to grow up and start acting like adults again if we want to have friends in the world. The more international pressure and isolation, the more difficult it will be for the fascists over here to implement their agenda. Too many foreign governments stood by and watched while the coup of 2000 took place. We've all paid dearly for that silence.

[melody]

3. This isn't solely an American-caused problem

It may comfort the UK folk to think so, but it simply isn't. This far-right movement is global and includes much of
the right wing of British AND continental European politics (to say nothing of our much-abused cousins in Australia).
George Bush (senior) and Queen Elizabeth have common bank accounts in the hundreds of billions of oil dollars. Their
first allegiance is not to their people, but to each other. There is only one English-speaking government now, and
it's not American-made ... it is global and fascist.

Dividing my mother country and my country would do nothing more than disguise the problem, although I'm sure the rats
are ready to abandon our ship for Europe fairly shortly.

[Prophet 451]

4. True, to an extent

But here, even our Conservative party, easily the most right-wing of the mainstream three parties is politically comparable to the Democratic party. Here, the most extreme-right party would probably be the BNP (a spin-off of the former National Front) but, if you removed the racist element, they look like fairly normal Republicans. No, the extreme-right isn't purely an American problem but here, they're an irritating background noise whose leader (Nick Griffin) spends most of his time fighting off criminal charges (and no, I'm not exagerating at all). In the US, they're running the country. The far-right didn't start in the US but it's in the States that they have become most mainstream and most accepted.

Incidently, I'd like to see some evidence that Her Majesty is holding petro-dollars. As far as I know, her income comes mainly from the civil list and owning half of Yorkshire.

[melody]

5. True, regardless

The extreme far-right has gone underground there, perhaps, but they are not gone.
Nor are they any more "accepted" in most of the US than they are there. I live in California.
Even our Republican Governor walks and talks like a Democrat. Trying to compare the values of
Alabama to California is like trying to explain the French by English cultural examples.

The only reason the far-right is in power here is because they openly stole two elections without a
peep from the international community. The only reasons the Democrats beat back the monsters in 06
is because the tide against the GOP was larger than the Diebold margins they play. We're fighting
for our lives over here.

This is what I find rather sweetly odd about the left in Europe -- you're almost innocent
in your refusing to think the worst of your leaders. That's the custom of the far-right over here.
The rest of us are very, very aware of how awful our own leaders often are.

Queen Elizabeth in Coutts Bank London has a number of bank accounts in common with George Bush. These have
been listed and accounted for elsewhere. One of them amounts to 100 billion dollars. To outline it would
take a lot of explaining. I'd rather PM you the book list. lol

Elizabeth II is oil rich and land rich. For instance, she's one of the largest private landholders in the US.
Granted, those funds are nicely disguised (as are Cheney's, et al), but following the funds back to the source
(to the extent we poor commoners can) reveals their origin.

[Prophet 451]

6. Hmmm

"The only reason the far-right is in power here is because they openly stole two elections without a peep from the international community."

And the international community was supposed to do what, exactly? Given how much the US has manipulated or ignored the international community for, oh, let's say the last thirty years or so; given how freely the US has interfered with other nations elections in that time and given the massive disparity in military power and the gung-ho lunatics currently in control of said power, it would have been near-suicidal to intervene.

"We're fighting for our lives over here."

I do appreciate that.

"This is what I find rather sweetly odd about the left in Europe -- you're almost innocent in your refusing to think the worst of your leaders."

Coming from an American, I have to question that. Blair is currently being investigated and may yet be charged in the cash for honours scandal. Chirac was re-elected under the unofficial slogan "better a crook than a Nazi". Charles Kennedy stepped down as leader of the Liberal party when it came out that he was an alcoholic. The much-beloved Winston Churchill is well-known to have been an opium fiend in his youth. This is compared to teh US which apparently can't even find general agreement to impeach either Regan (over the Iran-Contra affair) or teh openly corrupt Bush admin.

"The rest of us are very, very aware of how awful our own leaders often are."

I'm not sure if you're aware that a very common British comment on politics is "don't vote, it only encourages them".

"I'd rather PM you the book list."

Please do. My allegiance is to the crown, not specifically to any particular holder of it.

I may be being unfair to you here. I don't know you from Adam so it's difficult to judge how I should take your comments. Perhaps you are simply bemoaning the rise of the far-right as a global force but I've also conversed with enough Americans to know that, when the crimes of teh US are pointed out, one of the first reactions of many, many Americans is to play the "you're no better" card.

[melody]

8. I'm not participating in British conversation here ...

I'm speaking to you in an American way. In other words, whatever I state, I genuinely mean, and am not merely wielding
it as an over-the-top rhetorical device to win some abstract debate. I'm hearing you in an American way, so consider that in the
following.

I'm afraid all of your remarks heavily betray a deep dislike of Americans. When someone is so biased against a
group of people, it's impossible for someone from the hated group to truly have a dialog with the haters. I have that
same experience in defending France and the French to my more right-wing friends.

If you need to believe that the US is the big, bad bogeyman and Europe is this poor, little wonderland struggling against
us, then by all means, do so. You're merely falling prey to the anti-US propaganda in the EU media, just as we have our
own Fox News churning out nonsense about "freedom fries" to the simplistic far-right. We're all being played for corporate interests. The EU is as heavily invested in seeing the US demeaned as Bush's "portable public chorus" is in the reverse.

>when the crimes of teh US are pointed out, one of the first reactions of many, many Americans is to play the "you're no better" card.

Probably because simple logic reveals that "you're no better". We're all primates. We will all behave in amazingly similar
ways. Any differences are merely disguises.

>This is compared to teh US which apparently can't even find general agreement to impeach either Regan (over the Iran-Contra affair) or >teh openly corrupt Bush admin.

Well, you have 50 million people. We have three hundred million people. It is six times harder to get ANYTHING done in this country, including impeaching Bush and Reagan. We have different systems -- they are strong and weak in different ways.

I love my country and my people. My family started leaving the British Isles three hundred years ago. The American culture is really all I have that is my own in any real way. I'm sorry, but I absolutely see the relativity of all things in all situations. And yes, I think that European countries have equal and equally extreme flaws to the ones the US has. I say this as someone who has been
researching the Bushanostra for many years.

[Prophet 451]

10. Ah

"I'm afraid all of your remarks heavily betray a deep dislike of Americans."

Ah, the cry of anti-Americanism. I was wondering when that would come up. I actually neither like nor dislike the majority of Americans. I do think the arrogance is a bit much, especially when some relatively mild criticism gets me accused of deeply disliking Americans and I'm wondering if about a third of the country has gone completely tonto but that's not the same as disliking all Americans en masse.

"If you need to believe that the US is the big, bad bogeyman and Europe is this poor, little wonderland struggling against
us, then by all means, do so."

Oh dear, the excluded middle too? I never said, nor believe that Europe is some wonderland. However, on the stage of global politics, the US currently IS the big, bad bogeyman.

"You're merely falling prey to the anti-US propaganda in the EU media, just as we have our own Fox News churning out nonsense about "freedom fries" to the simplistic far-right."

Oh please. What is it about a certain kind of American that assumes anyone not gushing prase for the USA must be listening to propoganda because, heavens forfend, they could actually have a point. I'm British, our mass media is actually fairly pro-American. I also read your media, both the NY Times and the Washington Post (well, the electronic editions of each). If the EU dislikes the US right now, it is not because of some airy "propoganda", it is because we are very well aware both of your government's policies (which, granted, weren't legitimatly voted in) and of teh current cultural climate in teh US.

"We're all being played for corporate interests."

That much at least is true.

"The EU is as heavily invested in seeing the US demeaned as Bush's "portable public chorus" is in the reverse."

Again, you are assuming an unreasonable dislike of the US simply for being American rather than a very reasonable dislike on grounds of policies and you're doing so, well, largely because you want to.

"Probably because simple logic reveals that "you're no better". We're all primates. We will all behave in amazingly similar ways. Any differences are merely disguises."

You've misunderstood although that's probably my fault. I'm not disputing that both the US and Europe have misbehaved. Rather, I am pointing out that the "you're no better" arguement is usually used to shut down discussion as if the crimes of (for example) the British Empire somehow excuses the crimes of the US. It's an arguement which makes the assumption that unless the speaker is absolutely spotless, they have no right to comment.

"Well, you have 50 million people. We have three hundred million people. It is six times harder to get ANYTHING done in this country, including impeaching Bush and Reagan. We have different systems -- they are strong and weak in different ways."

About 60 million these days actually. Otherwise, I'll concede that particular point.

"And yes, I think that European countries have equal and equally extreme flaws to the ones the US has."

A decade ago, I would have agreed with you. Three years from now, I may agree again. With US history in the last six years though, comparing the crimes of the EU to those of the US is like drawing an equivelancy between the crimes of Jack The Ripper and those of Jeffrey Dahmer. Yes, the former's crimes were disgusting but compared to those of the latter, they're kind of insignificant. The EU has done many things wrong but comparing it to the state of the USA in the last few years is like swatting a fly with a Buick.

[melody]

11. Whatever

If by EU, you mean the political body of recent vintage -- to that I say, give them enough time. If you mean
Europe, good lord, you can't be serious. Sorry, but Europe and the US are neck-and-neck in the realm of
atrocities. You seem to have selective amnesia about that whole matter of World War II. And I'd be happy
to tell you all about how my family was dragged out of northern Ireland.

I'd also add the very simple truth that our histories are one. You can't divide out the mistakes of Europe from
the mistakes of the US. We've made those mistakes together. For instance, I don't blame Germany for Hitler
any more than I do the conditions in the US and UK that helped him attain power.

>Ah, the cry of anti-Americanism. I was wondering when that would come u

It's not the cry of anti-Americanism. It's the very real evidence of bigotry against Americans. And
by that I mean American people, not the government. Prejudice exists in all forms. It's no more correct
to be bigoted against Americans (and you certainly seem to be) than it is to be bigoted against French people or Croatians or
Asian people, etc. It's the identical rational idiocy that creates it. It's not simply morally wrong, it's
intellectually incorrect and reveals simplistic thinking.

Your other pre-packaged retorts don't work either. Not fawning praise? I've already stated open knowledge of
ALL our sins. You're the one ducking the tiniest culpability for your own nation, along with a rather sweet
need to absolve your Crown.

As soon as you discuss Europe, you become careful and reflective. The moment you discuss the US, you
launch into generalization and invective. There's no way to have a discussion with someone that unwilling
to see the grays in the matter (so much for your assertion of the excluded middle). You have these tidy
preordained arguments ready to throw back that seem more like platitudes than actual thoughts.

You are what you are because of what you do and think. You can't say "Oh, I think Europe is bad, too" and then
launch into all the reasons it is the holy land and we are the land of evil things. lol YOU are the one rejecting
anything but fawning praise of YOUR Crown and extended culture.

I find it hysterically funny when people on here accuse Americans of being irrationally pro-American
simply because we defend our people as a whole while owning completely the sins of the government.

Deal with it -- we're all human, we're all equally flawed. Even you, brother, even you.

On that note, I see no further need to trade potshots with you. Welcome to my ignore list. You'll need to have the last word, so have it and let's stop talking. It's useless anyway. If you need to hate me, hate away.

[struggle4progress]

15. I found it interesting that the cry of "anti-Americanism" is being raised ...

... loudly by rightwingers in several countries now, notably UK and Australia.

Of course, rightwingers in the USA have always used the accusation "You're anti-American" to try to silence other Americans. But I can't really imagine that the public in the UK or Downunder really cares that much about "anti-Americanism."

So I wonder about who's behind any politician in the UK or in Australia who complains "You're anti-American"

[CJCRANE]

21. "My allegiance is to the crown".

Do you work for the civil service or armed forces?

[CJCRANE]

7. I think you're right...

Of course there is the Rupert Murdoch press in all three countries which pumps out neocon propaganda to a greater or lesser extent.
I don't know much about Australia but it does seem as if in the UK and US there has been a backlash against the blatant neocon bullshit of Bush & Blair (but of course there is still the 30% who can be manipulated by fear to stay on side).

It'll be interesting to see what happens when B & B are gone, will the BFEE/MIC continue behind the scenes (most likely) or will there be a real resurgence of democracy in both countries...

[melody]

9. exactly, thank you

That is precisely my point.

[oscarmitre]

12. We're waking up, slowly and probably too late

but we're waking up. Oh and our apologies to the rest of the world, we gave you Murdoch, but don't hold that against us please.

[Prophet 451]

17. We're still pissed you gave us Neighbours n/t

[oscarmitre]

22. Sowwy.....n/t

[fedsron2us]

13. The dysfunctional relationship between the USA and Britain

goes back at least as far as the Suez crisis in 1956 and the blame can not be laid entirely laid at the Americans door. Indeed, one of the few favours Bush has done to us in the UK is to lay bare the true nature of the relationship. Much of the fault is due to the fact that British politicians use the USA to stimulate their own mastubatory fantasies that they are still a power in the world when in fact they count for almost nothing. The cartoon images of Blair as a demented poodle shagging Bush's leg are not too far from the truth. Washington does little to discourage these delusions because having the British on board adds an extra vote on the security council at the UN, a little token legitimacy for claims that ventures like Iraq are 'international coalition' operations and a few extra troops to die in these wars. In reality the UK is merely a client kingdom on the borders of the US empire.

[marmar]

14. Bet they never thought the colonies they fought so hard for....

would turn out to be such rogue puppies. :)

[Briar]

16. Another excellent article on the same theme here

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ian_williams/2007/02/special_relationship.html

Some extracts:

There was a rare moment of candour last year by a US State Department official, Kendall Myers. "There never really has been a special relationship or at least not one we've noticed," he said and added: "We typically ignore them and take no notice. We say, 'There are the Brits coming to tell us how to run our empire. Let's park them'. It is a sad business and I don't think it does them justice."...

In the second world war even my old man's aggrieved veteran friends were glad the

"Americans were there, "blue on blue" notwithstanding. It was a war that Britain had worked very hard to drag the US into - and not just for selfish reasons. Knowing that Britain only had the resources to fight the war on its own until 1943, the cabinet in 1940 decided not to cut to a deal with Hitler, which could have left the economy and empire intact, and instead fought on, even though it meant effectively selling the country to the USA. Washington took full advantage of the fire sale.

"Even at the height of the struggle against Hitler, once Canadian and American troops began to arrive in Britain, the US Treasury unilaterally cut off lend-lease whenever their spending brought Britain's dollar reserves above $300m.

"Britain handed over to the US all its technology, from penicillin and radar to its nuclear bomb research. Washington rewarded it in 1946 with the McMahon Act, which stopped British access to the joint research product of the Manhattan project, and a sudden stop on lend-lease terms as soon as the war was over."

[struggle4progress]

20. Thanks for the link!

[MasonJar]

18. I fail to see what the queen owning land in the US has to do with

anything. Since Bush became Resident, Japan and China own 60% of America. As to the elections which were stolen by Bush, what did the international community have to do with it. We Americans did nothing to stop this Bush charade, so what could other nations do. We are culpable, not Queen Elizabeth or Putin or Castro or even Blair. Our putrid government might go to Venezuela or some other country and overturn their democratic elections. However, most countries are simply not into that.

[struggle4progress]

19. The article in the OP doesn't say anything about the queen:

the topic of the queen was introduced by a poster who apparently also believes that Americans are more honest than Brits -- 'nuf said