Be sure to read Mother Jones' article on Hillary's Prayer

[JDPriestly]

page 48, October 2007 Mother Jones

"Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are a part of a secretive Capitol Hill group know as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R. Kans.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. 'A lot of evangelicals would see that as a cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation REscue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't . . . there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."

There is no link. I quote from the hard copy.

The U.S. Constitution prohibits a religious test for office. I think that the reporters asking questions in debates are way out of line in asking questions on religion. I was particularly offended by Stephanopoulos's question about prayer this morning. It was over the top offensive to a Unitarian like me.

Had a religious test been applied, I assure you Jefferson would never have been elected. That goes for many other presidents, possibly even John Adams who was deeply religious, but who saw through the hypocrisy of political leaders who invoke religion to support their crimes.

Here is what John Adams had to say on this:

"You ask, how it has happened that all Europe, has acted on the principle 'that power was Right.' I know not what Answer to give you, but this, that Power always sincerely, conscientiously, de tres bon Foi, believes itself Right. Power always thinks it has a great Soul, and vast Views, beyond the Comprehension of the Weak; and that it is doing God Service, when it is violating all his Laws. Our Passions, Ambition, Avarice, Love, Resentment etc. possess so much metaphysial Subtility and so much overpowering Eloquence, that they insinuate themselves into the Understanding and the Conscience and convert both to their Party. And I may be deceived as much as any of them, when I say, that Power must never be trusted without a Check."

This is from The Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams edited by Lester J. Cappon (1987 edition) pages 462-463.

Hillary's response on prayer rang really phony with me this morning. She plays her piety for all it is worth. I do not doubt that she is religious. I think she should keep her prayers to herself, however, as Jesus taught people should do.

Frankly, after Bush, I have had enough of charlatans who claim that God tells them what to do and then do horrible things and who call blame God rather than take responsibility for their own mistakes. I liked Edwards' answer in the debate this morning. It showed genuine humility. Prayer does not always prevent what we humans perceive as tragedy. It just does not. Prayer can help us bear tragedy better, but it does not always prevent it. If miracles they are, and I believe there are miracles, they are not caused by our prayers although we may sometimes perceive them to be. Let's face it, by definition a miracle is something we cannot explain -- and leave it at that.

The problem with mixing religion and politics is that, as Adams explains and as we have seen with Rove, the religion is too easily subverted into service of the politics of "might makes right." Let's abolish religious tests and questions from our political discourse. Let religious beliefs stay in the private realm of the politicians. Let's judge our leaders by their policies and their actions. Each candidate's relationship with his or her family as well as his or her stance on public matters speaks volumes about the politician's values, faith and capacity to respond to challenges. We cannot know the hearts of the candidates, and their own statements about their beliefs and piety are self-serving. Let's look at how the candidates live and relate to others and to the world around them. Those are the tests we should apply in selecting a candidate. Personally, I think all of the Democratic candidates pass this test.

[saracat]

1. What a great post.Thank you JD!

[JDPriestly]

3. Thank you. I recommend the book from which I quoted.

The letters of Jefferson and Adams leave no doubt about their intellectual curiosity. They did not accept easy answers to anything and read widely in their search for understanding and truth. What great men.

[TomClash]

2. Secret Capitol Hill group?

The Fellowship? Sounds like a cult.

[RufusTFirefly]

4. Mother Jones. Well known Rove mouthpiece

:sarcasm:

[tularetom]

5. Questions about religion are not out of line but

the cnadidates' answers should always be: "My personal faith is just that - personal. It has no bearing on the office I seek and it is quite frankly nobody's business but mine."

I don't give a flying fuck if any candidate is religious. I just want to know are they competent. One has zilch to do with the other.