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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:24 PM
Original message
Clinton Bought Bush’s War Talk, Obama Didn’t
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/18/7120/

Clinton Bought Bush’s War Talk, Obama Didn’t
by Stephen Zunes


In determining which of the two leading Democratic candidates would make the most competent and credible commander in chief, it is revealing to compare the public statements of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama during October 2002, when Congress voted to authorize the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Former President Bill Clinton insisted recently that Clinton and Obama had had virtually identical records on the Iraq war and that Obama’s claim that he “had the judgment to oppose this war from the beginning” was “the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen.”

The record from that month, however, shows that there were indeed major differences between the two future presidential contenders, with Clinton supporting the Bush administration’s push for war and its exaggerated claims about Iraq’s alleged military prowess while Obama was opposing a U.S. invasion of that oil-rich country and openly challenging the administration’s exaggerated claims of an Iraqi threat so urgent it required a march to war.

snip//

On one of the most critical policy questions of a generation, a state senator from Illinois was able to figure out what an experienced member of the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee could not — that Saddam was no longer a threat and that an invasion of Iraq would harm America’s national security interests.

That kind of judgment shows itself today in their respective choices as senior foreign policy advisers, many of whom would likely take top policy-making positions if the candidate does become president. Obama has assembled a foreign policy team whose members overwhelmingly opposed the war, in contrast to Clinton’s, whose members overwhelmingly supported it.

Wisconsin voters should keep this in mind in choosing which of these two Democratic candidates has the best judgment to lead this country during this next critical period.



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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hillary on Kosovo: "I urged him to bomb."
Tomorrow's Neocon Today
Why Clinton II wouldn't offer much change from Bush II

Radley Balko | October 19, 2007

... In fact, the L.A. Times reported last week that Clinton has refused to commit even to pulling U.S. troops from Iraq by 2013, which, if elected, would be the end of her first term. TV journalist Ted Koppel recently told NPR that Clinton has admitted the U.S. would still have troops in Iraq at the end of her second term.

The 1990s, remember, weren't exactly a decade of peace. Bill Clinton ordered more U.S. military interventions than any other post-WWII administration, and there's no reason to think any of them were over Hillary's protestations. She supported the U.S. military campaigns in Haiti, Kosovo, and Bosnia.

She once boasted that as the tension in Kosovo mounted,
she called her husband from her trip to Africa and, "I urged him to bomb."



http://www.reason.com/news/show/123103.html
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Accountability sucks, don't it, Hillary?
You are about to become a failed candidate. You deserve much worse for that vote.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. the IWR was not a vote for war
not that that will stop this stuff from being posted over and over and over.

Obama was not in a postition to vote on this.

Period.

I didn't accept that from Dean or Clark last time around, and I think it's bullshit this time around.

---------------


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Donkeykick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You know what?
Amen! :applause:

Obama was not in a postition to vote on this.


(Thinking: I feel that you would have seen a more cooperative Obama if he was in position, though.) ;)
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. February 12, 2003 "We Stand Passively Mute" by Senator Robert Byrd
Senate Remarks by Robert C. Byrd

February 12, 2003

"We Stand Passively Mute"


To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world.

This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust, misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed after September 11.

Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher.

This Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.

In that scant two years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits as far as the eye can see. This Administration's domestic policy has put many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly. This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our long and porous borders.

In foreign policy, this Administration has failed to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time, International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO. This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats, labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have consequences for years to come.

Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil, denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant -- these types of crude insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not just sign letters cheering us on.

The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that remote and devastated land.

Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that after winning the war one must always secure the peace?

And yet we hear little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans, speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq's oil fields, becoming an occupying power which controls the price and supply of that nation's oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the reins of power after Saddam Hussein?

Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq?

Could a disruption of the world's oil supply lead to a world-wide recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more lucrative practice for nations which need the income?

In only the space of two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years.

One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is nearly impossible to exact retribution.

But to turn one's frustration and anger into the kind of extremely destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged with the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the pronouncements made by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word.

Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the nation of Iraq -- a population, I might add, of which over 50% is under age 15 -- this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and biological warfare -- this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.

We are truly "sleepwalking through history." In my heart of hearts I pray that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a rudest of awakenings.

To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always be a last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment of any President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on a nation which is over 50% children is "in the highest moral traditions of our country". This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure appears to be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves in a corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time.


http://byrd.senate.gov/speeches/byrd_speeches_2003february/byrd_speeches_2003march_list/byrd_speeches_2003march_list_1.html
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. so...
that's his opinion.

It wasn't an opinion shared by others, such as Clinton, Kerry, Edwards, etc.

None of them felt they were voting for war - they were voting to put inspectors in and hopefully stop Bush's headlong rush to war.

Bush lied.

Iraq is Bush's war.

Period.

This constant pinning of blame for Iraq on Democrats is bullshit! That Obama would use the IWR against Clinton for his political gain is disingenuous, and it's the PRIMARY REASON I DON'T SUPPORT HIM. Especially when he wasn't in a position to make that decision, and especially because he has said that, if privy to the information the Senate was, he doesn't know how he would have voted!
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. 21 Dems, 1 Independent and 1 Republican voted their consciences instead of limply going
along with Bush. Clinton showed lack of leadership there and then repeated it with her vote on Kyl-Lieberman, which after watching the opposition held in the senate indicates to me she is not ready to make hard decisions.

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent who courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq were:

* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. blah blah blah
you repeat yourself.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. because I was wise enough like Obama and these Senators to stand up against
a rogue president when folks on the ground were suggesting the facts to go to war weren't there.

IWR was a bad choice showing lack of leadership. The Kyl Lieberman vote was inexcusable:

Webb: Lieberman And Kyl’s Hawkish Iran Amendment Is ‘Cheney’s Fondest Pipe Dream’


On the Senate floor today, Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA) made an impassioned appeal to his fellow senators, declaring that the Lieberman-Kyl amendment on Iran should be “withdrawn” because the “proposal is Dick Cheney’s fondest pipe dream.” Webb cautioned that the “cleverly-worded sense of the Congress” could be “interpreted” to “declare war” on Iran. He continued:

Those who regret their vote five years ago to authorize military action in Iraq should think hard before supporting this approach. Because, in my view, it has the same potential to do harm where many are seeking to do good.



“At best, it’s a deliberate attempt to divert attention from a failed diplomatic policy,” said Webb. “At worst, it could be read as a backdoor method of gaining Congressional validation for military action, without one hearing and without serious debate.” Watch it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/25/webb-kyl-lieb-iran/
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. what was Obama's vote on Kyle/Lieberman again?
I must have missed it....
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Read this especially what Biden and Edwards said about her vote:""There's no evidence -- none, zero
September 26, 2007
Read More: Debates

Obama: No on Kyl-Lieberman


He does have a position!

Per press secretary Bill Burton, he would have voted against it, leaving Hillary alone in the field in her support for it.

Here's the statement:

Senator Obama clearly recognizes the serious threat posed by Iran. However, he does not agree with the president that the best way to counter that threat is to keep large numbers of troops in Iraq, and he does not think that now is the time for saber-rattling towards Iran. In fact, he thinks that our large troop presence in Iraq has served to strengthen Iran - not weaken it. He believes that diplomacy and economic pressure, such as the divestment bill that he has proposed, is the right way to pressure the Iranian regime. Accordingly, he would have opposed the Kyl-Lieberman amendment had he been able to vote today.






http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0907/Obama_No_on_KylLieberman.html



On the Iran question, it was Hillary Clinton versus everyone else. When the candidates were asked for their views on the NIE, the debate soon turned to the Senate's Kyl-Lieberman resolution, which labeled the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. John Edwards disputed Clinton's earlier claim that the bill "was clearly a vote for stepped-up diplomacy, not military action." Responded Edwards: "Declaring a military group sponsored by the state of Iran a terrorist organization, that"s supposed to be diplomacy?"(Here's the partial transcript.)

Clinton then defended her vote for Kyl-Lieberman: "In fact, having designated the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, we've actually seen some changes in their behavior." She didn't say where she had obtained that information. Presumably it wasn't from the latest NIE. "The Iranians were supplying weapons that killed Americans. They were supplying technical assistance from the Qods Force, which is their special operations element. So I think we've actually seen the positive effects of having labeled them a terrorist organization because it did change their behavior."

Joe Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, quickly took exception to her claim. "There's no evidence -- none, zero -- that this declaration caused any change in action on the part of the Iranian government," Biden said.

Under fire, Clinton tried to argue that her position was now the same as everyone else's. "None of us is advocating a rush to war," she said. "Our goals are the same: diplomatic engagement with Iran."

Edwards begged to differ. "Among the Democratic candidates, there's only one that voted for this resolution. And this is exactly what Bush and Cheney wanted."

-snip

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?pid=256838
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Obama has a position!
He couldn't be bothered to actually vote that position, but he has a position!

Kind of like his IWR vote. Oh, wait - he wasn't in the Senate, so we don't really know how he would have voted, do we? Same with Kyle/Lieberman.

Talk is cheap, and that's all I see from Obama. Talk. When he's had the opportunity to put his vote where his mouth is, well... that's a different story.

Could of, would of, should of.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. He wasn't in town, wrongly, but WAY better than an endorsement of Bush policy like Clinton!
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Obama voted NO to give Telecoms immunity, Clinton not present:
Sens. Barack Obama (D-IL) and John McCain (R-AZ) took some time from campaigning for Tuesday's slate of "Potomac Primaries" in Maryland, Virginia and Washington to swing by the Capitol and vote on the amendments. Obama voted for the amendments to strip immunity from the bill, while McCain opposed the amendments and voted in favor of keeping immunity.

Hillary Clinton did not vote on the immunity issue at all, although she was in Washington at least part of the day Tuesday, competing in the same primaries as Obama and McCain.

-snip

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Senate_OKs_immunity_for_telecoms_021

BTW she receives the largest amount of all Dems from the Telecom industry:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=B08
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. there's a difference -
and it goes back to my original post - irregardless of the importance of the telecom vote you reference, which is debatable -

Hillary isn't campaigning on that vote!

Obama is campaigning on the IWR, something he never was in a position to vote for. That's my whole point. I think it's dishonest of him. He is also campaigning on the Kyle/Lieberman vote, another vote he missed!

I realize that Obama supporters have no problem with this sort of thing...

I do.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. If I were to run I would also run on that issue because I held it like Obama.
Obama wasn't my first choice but given we have two Dems to choice from, there is NO DOUBT after studying the issues that I believe Obama's positions are far closer in line to mine as a progressive anti war, anti free trade, pro-constitution Democrat.

I also believe that Clinton will energize the Republican base to vote for McCain, while Obama is bringing independents and disheartened Republicans into the party.

Since my main issue is corporatism (which I believe includes the war issue, trade (fair vs "free"), inequality of wealth, healthcare, media consolidation, among others), I truly believe Obama is the best hope. Hillary has run partly on her husbands "accomplishments" which include NAFTA and free trade outsourcing of jobs to China, the Telecom Act of '96 which gave us media consolidation and support of the banking industry which helped create the current mortgage crisis. Her votes on IWR and Kyl-lieberman and leadership role at the DLC all point to business as usual from the current administration. I will be forced to write in a different Dem name should she be the candidate.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, we don't know that. Because he wasn't there.
But I agree, he gets clean away. He wasn't in the Senate. He wasn't subjected to Senate pressures or reasoning. His voting history does NOT show the brave independence you are betting the farm on, however. He's smart. He covers his ass. But maverick independence? Bold leadership? Not happening. Buddying up to friendly fixers? He's an Axlerod product. The real man is no one we've yet met.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obama would be wise to avoid this point.
He wasn't in the Senate when the vote was taken. From what I've seen of the freshman senator, he's a yes-man. He wants both sides to get along, remember? The only way to have gotten along at the time of the vote, particularly during that time when the whole misled country was in a kick-their-ass-take-their-gas stupor, was to give the 'thugs what they wanted.

Harping on this subject will only accentuate the inexperience of Obama. I didn't even know who he was until he became a senator, which is fairly recent.

Buckle your seat belts; this is going to be a very rough ride when the two candidates are declared. Yes, he won the majority of the Democratic primaries. It's been very easy for him so far, & I think it's part of the 'thugs' strategy: they're going to go full-throttle when the two nominees have been announced, then there's no turning back.

What I'd give for Gore to come to the rescue as, perhaps, a third-party candidate.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Obama should bring it up as often as possible......as one didn't have to
in the Senate in order to make their voices heard.

If you think that discounting millions of us and how we tried to stop this bullshit war before it started, including Sen. Obama, you've got something else coming.

We are not fools. We weren't then, and we aren't now.

and keep waiting for the politics of Hate to do your biding so that you can say, "I told you so"....cause you will be waiting for quite some time. Underestimate Sen. Obama and the people that stand behind him (that would be us) at your peril. Lord knows that's what Sen. Clinton did. You see where this strategy landed her, doncha?
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hillary is a Neocon Hawk
She's even more dangerous than Jane Harman.
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