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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:22 AM
Original message
Clinton Take on Pennsylvania Is Increasingly Detached From Reality
Clinton Take on Pennsylvania Is Increasingly Detached From Reality
by Steve Kornacki | March 13, 2008

The Clinton campaign released a memo yesterday whose first line read: “The path to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue goes through Pennsylvania so if Barack Obama can't win there, how will he win the general election?”



Let’s accept, for a moment, the Clinton campaign’s suggestion that Pennsylvania is the most pivotal state for any Democratic candidate to carry in the fall. Even if that’s true, there’s really no reason to think that Obama would be worse-positioned there for the general election than Clinton would be.

For one thing, a recent poll showed him only running one statistically-insignificant point worse than Clinton against John McCain in Pennsylvania—and another found him doing much better than her against the presumed G.O.P. nominee.

This only makes sense. Candidates can—and often have—won states in the fall that they have lost in the spring. There is no correlation between winning a primary, particularly a closed one like Pennsylvania, and winning in the fall, when independents and cross-party voters provide the winning margin.

This was true in 1980 in Pennsylvania, where Ronald Reagan suffered one of the lowest moments of his primary campaign only to bounce back and carry the state in the fall. Or consider 2000, when George W. Bush won the four electoral votes that put him over 270 (putting the Florida issue aside) in the swing state of New Hampshire—a state that he lost miserably in the primaries while his Democratic opponent, Al Gore, was carrying it.

Obama, in the likely event he does lose Pennsylvania in April, can win it in the fall, just as he can win every other swing state that Clinton has carried. Even though he lost Ohio, for instance, he fares no worse than Clinton there against McCain. And in both New Mexico and Nevada, smaller but still potentially important swing states, Obama runs 16 points better against McCain than Clinton—even though Clinton beat Obama in both during the primary season. It can not be said enough: There is no correlation between winning a state’s primary and winning it in the general election.

But the most historically ignorant claim in the memo came later on: “No Democrat has won the presidency without winning Pennsylvania since 1948. And no candidate has won the Democratic nomination without winning Pennsylvania since 1972.”

The second part is demonstrably false. Ted Kennedy beat Jimmy Carter in the 1980 Pennsylvania primary, but it was Carter who won the nomination. (Carter did win a few more delegates in the state than Kennedy—but, as they told us after Nevada and Texas, this is not the criteria that the Clinton campaign favors in declaring who wins or loses a state.)

more...

http://www.observer.com/2008/clinton-take-pennsylvania-increasingly-detached-reality
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did Carter win in 1980?
Huh?
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I thought it was Reagan!
!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's Hillary's spin
This is an unusual season in that voters are more sceptile than ever before. The old tactics to get them to herd aren't working.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. No, it's my mom's group of elderly women who think Hillary got screwed over
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 09:52 AM by billbuckhead
It's not like working class white's haven't voted Republican before in protest. I know many of Hillary's opponent's supporters hope this group dies off soon but I think they'll make to the polls in 2008.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. fine. offset byt the MILLIONS of new and older voters that Obama
inspired. In my state, its incredible how many people he pulled in.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yeah, Hillary's opponent will win Alaska
:rofl:
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Speaking as a white working class voter, in a big city full of them, I can attest to how
we got over our fear of voting for black candidates some time ago. I don't know who you are, or what makes you spout such an overgeneralization so confidently, but you don't know anything about voters here in the largest city in Pennsylvania.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Do you actually believe that
or are you not as big a racist idiot as you appear?

I'm not calling you a racist idiot. I'm asking if you are one.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Rendell said a black is unelectable statewide in Pennsylvania
I bet he knows better than you do.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yeah but he didn't call him an "affirmative action" candidate
even Geraldine Ferraro wasn't stupid enough to formulate it like that.
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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I'm White, Working Class and Voting For Obama
There is not a Clinton supporter on the floor of our warehouse and many of our working class Republican co-workers, as well as a number of managers, are going to vote for Obama as well.

mike kohr
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. He won the nomination, not the presidency. nt
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I thought that's what she meant in the first place!
Maybe I didn't understand the statement; or, maybe she stated if differently at another time... she's done that before!
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. according to the numbers
obama needs take his name off the ballot for hillary to catch his delegate lead. he picked up 9 more from iowa yesterday and i think texas still has another round of voting....good luck hillary on catching obama`s lead
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. And we have those AA precincts in NYC with zero votes for Obama
an oddity that Mayor Bloomberg called electoral fraud.
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