H-1B crisis: Cisco has 1,504 U.S. job openings to fill

[OhioChick]

Thu, 04/03/2008 - 6:33am

As of January 2008, Cisco had 1,504 U.S. job openings that require a B.A., professional degree or higher.

The supply of H-1B visas has been exhausted before the start of each of the past four fiscal years.

-------------------------

"Unfortunately, there is currently a shortage of U.S. workers with the skills necessary to fill certain types of engineering and science positions," said Heather Dickinson - Public Relations for Cisco.

"This leaves Cisco and other U.S. companies at a competitive disadvantage if we cannot access the best and the brightest workers."

"Therefore, we support an increase in the number of H-1B workers allowed in the United States this year as part of an overall strategy to boost U.S. competitiveness."

"We are also advocating for a greater emphasis on math and science education so that U.S. students have the skills necessary to fill these types of positions,"

-------------------------

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/26583?ts0hb=&story=wknd_wir

Now, the big question. What is Cisco willing to pay?

[Amerigo Vespucci]

1. I was one of the 8500 people laid off in 2001, so Cisco can bite me

They also treat their H-1B employees like human cattle.

[marmar]

2. There's a shortage of people Cisco can pay half of what they would pay US workers.....

n/t

[AlertLurker]

3. Microsoft did this last year, too.

When the US government denied them an increase in H1-B visas, M$ moved a series of helpdesks to Vancouver, Canada (promising an employment boom for BC Canadians, of course) - then proceeded to bring Indian helpdesk agents in by the BOATLOAD, because of Canada's incredibly LAX immigration requirements for "skilled" foreign labour.

[Highway61]

4. This is a crock

I was a recruiter for high tech and I placed many excellent engineers at Cisco Systems. The H-1B visas have ruined our economy. The big wigs at these companies can pay half nothing to these foreign engineers and they DO pay SO MUCH LESS. Don't tell me we don't have the best and the brightest. Cisco is opening a plant in India as we speak and closing one here. The Ceo and ALL his cronies should be thrown out of the USA. You want to build in India and stuff your pockets...then get your ass out and go live there! We don't want you here. All they want from America is tax breaks and real estate. Bunch of bull shit is what it is.
I've seen some of the brightest and finest have to go and work at Home Depot and pray that they make it. God, it just breaks my heart what the corporate elite has done to this country. Sorry, I got off on a rant.

[tanyev]

5. B.S.

Nortel is in the process of laying off a few more thousand, so my husband was applying at other companies. He got a few nibbles, but most of them came to a screeching halt as soon as they asked what his current salary is. He was even willing to take a cut, but they didn't want to talk about that. Fortunately, he found something at a different department within Nortel. Fingers crossed that this department survives.

[Joanne98]

6. What ever happened to "on the job training".. There are lots of Americans

who can fill these positions. Other data shows that when they outsource to other countries they don't care what degrees people have and they do train them on the job. They're so full of shit. This is just 'cheap labor', LIARS!

[OhioChick]

7. You're right, Joanne...

It's not about degrees, but who will do the work for the least amount of $$$$.

[antigop]

8. I'm curious about the whole "shortage of U.S. workers" myth

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901661_pf.html

Penn said that he has been cleared of all client responsibilities, except for Microsoft, for the duration of the campaign but that he still relies on a team of about 20 employees to do most of the day-to-day work.

EXACTLY what is Penn doing for Microsoft?

[OhioChick]

10. "EXACTLY what is Penn doing for Microsoft?"

Good question.

[treestar]

9. An H-1B applicant has to prove to the government that it can

and will pay the prevailing wage. When they go for extensions, the government will demand proof that this was done.

The government determines, through its studies, what the prevailing wage is, and often sets it higher than the market really is, due to the usual government lack of competence.

An H-1B thus has to be paid that, whereas a U.S. citizen does not. The employer would therefore be wiser (and greedier) to get these supposedly existing hordes of U.S. citizens to work for less than the prevailing wage, per the government. There would be no law against that.

Anyway, Cisco has opened itself up to applications for employment from all the Americans who could do that job, having publicized it.

[OhioChick]

11. "the government will demand proof that this was done."

That means......put an ad in the local paper and throw the thousands of applications into the trash and say that you "tried" to hire a US citizen but there were none. I've seen it happen time and time again through the years at many companies.

[treestar]

14. Not part of the H-1B process

They have to show their tax returns (the government has no connection to its own records if from another department), and have to show they paid the prevailing wage (at least what it is per the government) if they want extensions.

They have to show their accounting statements to the government.

The idea that legal aliens are paid less is a myth. There are legal protections against that. That's the idea behind the 1952 law. Having to prove to the government there are no U.S. citizens. The effort required to do that is not one that a greedy employer will engage in where it can get U.S. citizens.

The allegedly available U.S. citizens ought to apply to Cisco for those jobs, then.

[OhioChick]

16. "prevailing wage" .......

They're just given a different title.....thus, paid less. Why do you put so much faith in corporations to do the "right" thing? Do you sincerely think that they are? They're in bed with this administration, so don't tell me that there is no way around hiring practices.

[treestar]

24. How can the U.S. citizen be so helpless?

There are at least laws surrounding it. Are you saying you give in totally and that even where there is a law, you won't try to enforce it against a corporation? If the DOL really would look aside, don't you go to the media with that? At least?

If they are given a title to what is supposed to be a higher paying job and not getting paid for that, then the DOL would be interested in looking at their books. The government does not want to hand out H-1Bs. The immigration services post 911 are very enforcement minded and their funding for enforcement is greater than it ever has been. Why so helpless in light of this?

And why not run to Cisco and apply? They should be overwhelmed with applications by now, having publicized their need. How are they going to turn these people away credibly? And if they do, then there is a case for claiming they were trying to get cheaper labor by making fraudulent applications under the H-1B program.

And while this may happen, it does not mean every single application is a fraud.

[OhioChick]

25. Ohiochick vs. Major Corps????

:rofl:

"Go to the media?" :rofl:

Where have you been over the past 7+ years?

I never said that "every single application is a fraud."

Do not put words in my mouth.

The more you post, the more you sound to be on the side of big corporations.


If all of this isn't happening (H1B's coming into the US, while US citizens train them for their jobs/positions) then why the outcry over it?

I guess they ALL must be lying, right?

Also:


While several bills, such as the "SKIL Act of 2006," aim to nearly double the annual H-1B quota, all such bills provide for the legal displacement of U.S. workers by underpaid foreign workers under a flawed prevailing wage provision. The H-1B "prevailing wage" is a sham that allows employers to pay H-1B workers 25% below market wages while claiming full compliance with the law.

Sacramento, CA (PRWEB) July 6, 2006 -- The Programmers Guild, an organization advocating for US-based computer professionals, finds that the prevailing wage protections in pending immigration legislation, such as the "SKIL Bill," authorize corporations to pay foreign tech workers $25,000 below the wage paid to average U.S. workers in the same professions.

The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that the Department of Labor (DOL) had approved thousands of H-1B applications, in spite of clear prevailing wage violations within the applications. But GAO did not consider whether the prevailing wages themselves were flawed. Had GAO evaluated the DOL's prevailing wages against actual U.S. wages, the number of violations might have exceeded one hundred thousand.

In the Silicon Valley, California region, the median wage in 2004 for the occupation "computer programmer" was $83,500. This median represents the wages for U.S. workers with average skills and experience. But of the 9721 LCAs (Labor Condition Applications) for H-1B computer programmer in the region in fiscal year 2005, 2877 (29%) were for a salary of $57,000 or less, and fully 8193 (84%) paid less than the median wage of $83,500.

Proponents of the H-1B program argue that H-1B workers are the "best and brightest" workers in the world, bringing specialized skills that U.S. workers lack. But if wages are an indication of value, the opposite is true: In Silicon Valley only 16% of H-1B workers are earning at least what an average American programmer earns, and this ratio holds across the U.S.

In Fiscal Year 2005 the Department of Labor certified that H-1B computer programmers in Silicon Valley earning as low as $40,000 per year, and these wages were found to be in compliance with prevailing wage requirements by both the DOL and the GAO.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb407549.htm


It's been pointed out to you, but you only want to read and believe what you choose to.

[treestar]

27. If the citizens are still making $83,000 a year I'm not going to cry

over that.

Further, why so helpless where the law is on your side? It would be the government against the big corporations. Or smaller ones, as small companies may also hire H-1Bs.

Are "big corporations" always inherently wrong? They do create employment, and in fact, it appears you take the position they are the only ones who can create employment for you (and that they owe it to you.)

Why all the scapegoating of these H-1Bs, on behalf of really well paid people Americans who are professionals with college educations? I can see the lowest earning Americans being threatened by illegal workers, because that's at the very low end of the scale. But here, you've only got people wishing to make even more than a very high salary, even if your claims are true that the H-1Bs are paid less for the same work and that you are helpless to get the government to enforce it.

It amazes me there is such shrill rhetoric on this subject, and how challenging it always upsets people. It makes me think you have some personal job misfortune and just want to blame somebody and the H-1Bs seem logical to blame.

If the H-1Bs are really willing to work the same job for less pay, then the market for that work really doesn't justify the higher wage. A U.S. citizen can't expect more than the prevailing wage. That's why the laws say that foreigners can't work legally for less.

[OhioChick]

28. Once Again:

The H-1B Prevailing Wage is Substantially Below the Median Wage of U.S. Workers

While several bills, such as the "SKIL Act of 2006," aim to nearly double the annual H-1B quota, all such bills provide for the legal displacement of U.S. workers by underpaid foreign workers under a flawed prevailing wage provision. The H-1B "prevailing wage" is a sham that allows employers to pay H-1B workers 25% below market wages while claiming full compliance with the law.

Sacramento, CA (PRWEB) July 6, 2006 -- The Programmers Guild, an organization advocating for US-based computer professionals, finds that the prevailing wage protections in pending immigration legislation, such as the "SKIL Bill," authorize corporations to pay foreign tech workers $25,000 below the wage paid to average U.S. workers in the same professions.

The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that the Department of Labor (DOL) had approved thousands of H-1B applications, in spite of clear prevailing wage violations within the applications. But GAO did not consider whether the prevailing wages themselves were flawed. Had GAO evaluated the DOL's prevailing wages against actual U.S. wages, the number of violations might have exceeded one hundred thousand.

In the Silicon Valley, California region, the median wage in 2004 for the occupation "computer programmer" was $83,500. This median represents the wages for U.S. workers with average skills and experience. But of the 9721 LCAs (Labor Condition Applications) for H-1B computer programmer in the region in fiscal year 2005, 2877 (29%) were for a salary of $57,000 or less, and fully 8193 (84%) paid less than the median wage of $83,500.

Proponents of the H-1B program argue that H-1B workers are the "best and brightest" workers in the world, bringing specialized skills that U.S. workers lack. But if wages are an indication of value, the opposite is true: In Silicon Valley only 16% of H-1B workers are earning at least what an average American programmer earns, and this ratio holds across the U.S.

In Fiscal Year 2005 the Department of Labor certified that H-1B computer programmers in Silicon Valley earning as low as $40,000 per year, and these wages were found to be in compliance with prevailing wage requirements by both the DOL and the GAO.


http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb407549.htm



"If the citizens are still making $83,000 a year I'm not going to cry over that"

I don't know of many making 83K a year. Wages have really gone down since bush took office.

"It would be the government against the big corporations."

If you believe that, I have some land in Florida to sell you. Corporations run our Government, if you haven't noticed.

"It amazes me there is such shrill rhetoric on this subject, and how challenging it always upsets people."

You're beginning to spew right wing talking points. McCain wants to hike up that cap....just like you. This is my field, should I lose my job (and there aren't a lot out there)....my children don't eat. Who cares though, right?

"It makes me think you have some personal job misfortune and just want to blame somebody and the H-1Bs seem logical to blame."

Don't pull the race card with me. I have many friends who are now working at Home Depots and the like, as they had to train H1B's to do their jobs. What are YOUR feelings of that practice? You seem to have quite an interest...it shows. I've seen many members call you out on that, but you typically disappear.

"That's why the laws say that foreigners can't work legally for less."

Again, read article above. You keep dodging that article.

I can only fathom your views on our dwindling manufacturing sector and those jobs lost. I guess US citizens should be willing to work for 3 bucks a day as they do around the globe.

When your field begins to get outsourced....you'll be the first one to complain. Oh.....and so it begins.....
TIME: Call my lawyer... in India

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727726,00.html

Furthermore, I'm surprised you're a Dennis Kucinich fan.

Dennis Kucinich: "Against H1B program, wants to end it" (I guess Dennis knows jack-shit about the subject, right?)

http://www.techcrunch.com/presidential/candidate.php?candidate=26

[ihavenobias]

34. You suggested she has a vested or personal interest here. How about you?

That line cuts both ways. I remember debating someone who was defending outrageously high CEO pay, to the point where I finally asked if he was a CEO (half jokingly).

He admitted he was, and suddenly his questionable position seemed much more understandable (still questionable, but hey). At any rate, the bottom line is that workers in this country are being squeezed at *both* ends.

On one side there is a labor surplus when it comes to low skill workers, which drives down wages and benefits. On the other side, there is an increasing supply of *high* skill workers, which again, drives down wages and benefits.

While you can make a reasonable point that things are more complicated than that, clearly this is a logical bottom line explanation of the situation. In that context, arguing that there is no reason to complain unless someone is *personally* effected is a rather absurd position to take. Granted, you may find that to be a dismissive misrepresentation of what you're saying, but IMO, that pretty much sums it up on some base level. At the very least that sure seems like at least *part* of what you're trying to argue.

[Selatius]

35. I think you're frankly mistaken.

The H-1B visa program has been and probably continues to be violated in the absence of regulation. There are videos on youtube of paid consultants teaching HR managers how to rig job searches so that they can claim no American is qualified for those jobs, thus necessitating hiring foreign workers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA

Corporations are amoral as entities in themselves. They exist to enrich shareholder value, period. One way to do is to to cut down labor costs.

[treestar]

36. Why is this the one subject I always get so many replies on?

Seems that personal considerations, not general policy considerations, create such passion.

How can H-1Bs (who are legally here) be such a major factor in our economy? The waste of $$ in Iraq and the deficit might hurt in a major functional way, but not a few foreigners.

Hey, I hate competition, too. I wish nobody else were allowed to do my job and I were the only one available to do it. Everyone does. But life goes on.

[OhioChick]

23. See Post #21. n/t

[Skittles]

30. with all due respect, treestar, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about

I'm in the business and I see it for myself what goes on - THEY DO WHATEVER THEY CAN NOT TO HIRE AMERICANS. And HELL FUCKING YES they H1B folk not just less but SUBSTANTIALLY less. Why do you think American businesses are so hot to hire foreigners. If you think it's because they're smarter you're dead wrong. IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE CHEAPER AND MORE EASILY EXPLOITABLE.

[OhioChick]

32. Bingo! n/t

[LoZoccolo]

13. There are ways that they can try to prevent hiring an qualified and interested U.S. worker.

And it's been documented that they are willing to pay for legal advice to find out how to do just that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

[treestar]

15. Why are they so hot to hire a foreigner then?

When they have to do it under government supervision?

The U.S. immigration laws are written with protections to U.S. workers against foreign workers working for less than the prevailing wage. This is true for legal aliens. Only illegals can undercut the minimum wage.

Taking the position that U.S. employers can never hire aliens, even legally, would undercut the U.S. labor market by contracting business expansion.

[OhioChick]

17. "Why are they so hot to hire a foreigner then?"

Cheap labor. Companies admit this. Do you really believe in "government supervision?"

This thread is right up your alley:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x350891

[LoZoccolo]

18. Where can I find this "prevailing wage" for a software engineer? n/t

[antigop]

22. See my reply #21. n/t

[GetTheRightVote]

12. It is that exactly, a myth, I have seen to much to not see the lie

behind the usage of h1-bs to replace Americans who are more then capable of the doing the jobs the corps take away from them. I am one of those American workers who is in fact better the h1-bs they keep trying to put in my place only because I demand the correct wages for my position and education level. It is really sick to see Americans abusing other Americans in this manner and pushing the lies that they do just because their God is money.

One other thing that is totally amazing to me is that the workers from other countries could even believe in the lies and even if they chose to believe in them, lol, they are still wrong in principle and they know it !

[antigop]

19. Hey, did you all see what the ProgrammersGuild is seeking? Plaintiffs...

http://www.hireamericansfirst.org/us_workers.aspx

The Programmers Guild has already filed 300 discrimination complaints against H-1b employers. But in order to seek large damage claims, they need a group of plaintiffs that have suffered actual harm. If you select "Will be party to class action" in your profile, the Programmers Guild will notify you of job ads to apply for. If the Guild files a class action suit against that employer, you will be a harmed plaintiff eligible to share in the damages award.

[OhioChick]

20. Interesting. n/t

[antigop]

21. The H-1B Prevailing Wage is Substantially Below the Median Wage of U.S. Workers

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb407549.htm

While several bills, such as the "SKIL Act of 2006," aim to nearly double the annual H-1B quota, all such bills provide for the legal displacement of U.S. workers by underpaid foreign workers under a flawed prevailing wage provision. The H-1B "prevailing wage" is a sham that allows employers to pay H-1B workers 25% below market wages while claiming full compliance with the law.

Sacramento, CA (PRWEB) July 6, 2006 -- The Programmers Guild, an organization advocating for US-based computer professionals, finds that the prevailing wage protections in pending immigration legislation, such as the "SKIL Bill," authorize corporations to pay foreign tech workers $25,000 below the wage paid to average U.S. workers in the same professions.

The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that the Department of Labor (DOL) had approved thousands of H-1B applications, in spite of clear prevailing wage violations within the applications. But GAO did not consider whether the prevailing wages themselves were flawed. Had GAO evaluated the DOL's prevailing wages against actual U.S. wages, the number of violations might have exceeded one hundred thousand.

In the Silicon Valley, California region, the median wage in 2004 for the occupation "computer programmer" was $83,500. This median represents the wages for U.S. workers with average skills and experience. But of the 9721 LCAs (Labor Condition Applications) for H-1B computer programmer in the region in fiscal year 2005, 2877 (29%) were for a salary of $57,000 or less, and fully 8193 (84%) paid less than the median wage of $83,500.

Proponents of the H-1B program argue that H-1B workers are the "best and brightest" workers in the world, bringing specialized skills that U.S. workers lack. But if wages are an indication of value, the opposite is true: In Silicon Valley only 16% of H-1B workers are earning at least what an average American programmer earns, and this ratio holds across the U.S.

In Fiscal Year 2005 the Department of Labor certified that H-1B computer programmers in Silicon Valley earning as low as $40,000 per year, and these wages were found to be in compliance with prevailing wage requirements by both the DOL and the GAO.

[Recursion]

26. Maybe if Cisco would invest a dime in TRAINING

I'm in IT so I see all the time that, in fact, there really aren't enough trained people to work a lot of these jobs.

So why in the hell is the answer to import people from India rather than training our own damn workforce like we did for decades?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. For the same reason that corporations stopped recruiting

liberal arts graduates for management positions in the late 1970s.

Until then, it was assumed that companies would take graduates with English or history majors and train them in business practices. The typical college graduated very few business majors--three out of my class of 400. Yet many of my classmates went straight to work for banks and other corporations.

By the early 1980s, corporations were demanding that prospective management trainees have majors in business or even an MBA.

[Recursion]

31. The ultimate (fatal) irony being that it was those MBA's who got us where we are today

Sorry. I earned my employability and experience from the ground up, deploying networking systems since about 1989. As a result, I'm almost irreversably skeptical of what MBA's, HR-bots and other "experts" say about a business.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. Definitely

MBA's are taught that the main purpose of a company is to increase profits to the shareholders and that all other values should be subordinate to that, so from their point of view, if you have to destroy an American town's economy and ship jobs to Vietnam to get the investors a few more dollars per share, you should go for it.