Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton Take a Dive

[Demeter]

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/carpenter/043

No matter what else happens between now and November I'll give John McCain credit for at least one act of wisdom: He refused to attend that anticonstitutional abomination -- the misnomered "Compassion Forum" -- on CNN last night. It was the closest thing yet to a religious test, which the U.S. Constitution does not specifically ban, but does frown on pointedly: none "shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

We are treading on perilous ground. We have, for the first time to my knowledge, now lined up major candidates for the U.S. presidency and grilled them on personal, religious faith. The founders would have been appalled, and for good reason. It is precisely the kind of church-state entanglement that severed and factionalized Europe for centuries -- something the founders hoped to avoid by establishing the world's "first wholly secular state," as one scholar of the early American republic has put it.

But you wouldn't have been reminded of our secular founding from watching the "Compassion Forum," sponsored last night by Pennsylvania's Messiah College and characterized this morning by the NY Times as "an exercise in earnestness on pressing moral and social issues, a 90-minute break from the political thrust and parry of the presidential campaign trail" in which "candidates ... address religious beliefs in at times starkly personal terms."

And Brother, did they ever. They had to. That was the whole point. They had to wear their Christian religion on their sleeves (an act I could swear Christianity's founder admonished) so as to gather up as many Christians-cum-Democrats as possible.

It was more than an embarrassment; it was an insult to the Constitution. It was also -- and this is just one more reason the founders declined that whole religious-test business -- an embarrassment and insult to religion itself, since it dragged the theologically fanciful down into the mud of earthly infighting.

[leftofcool]

1. Good point

On the other hand, when you have been viewed as "godless libruls" for such a long time, getting your "faith views" heard might be just the ticket.

[papau]

2. Nosense - Freedom of religion or non-religion is NOT freedom from religion

[Demeter]

4. Separation of Church and State Is The Issue

It is unseemly to drag religion into secular government. Unless of course this is no longer the US of A, which I am willing to consider at this point, what with Habeus Corpus and the Bill of Rights become dead letters.

[tridim]

6. "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust..

..under the United States" -Article VI, section 3

While the forum didn't require the participants be Christian (Or did it?), the questions did assume that they believed in God. This event came dangerously close to a flat-out religious test.

[Dhalgren]

3. I agree 1000%! That was a sickening display.

With Democrats like this, who needs Republicans? :puke:

[MercutioATC]

5. It's inappropriate as a "test". It's completely valid as a forum.

...and that's what it was, a forum.

I'm atheist. I think it's unfortunate that some judge their leaders by their religious beliefs...but many people do.

This was an opportunity for people to hear candidates talk about their personal beliefs. I think it helped our cause of getting a Democrat into the White House.

[Demeter]

7. Some Phrase About Camel's Nose Sneaking into the Tent Comes To Mind

Biblical reference, I thought at first, being an atheist myself, but it's just a Middle Eastern fable:

One cold night, as an Arab sat in his tent, a camel gently thrust his nose under the flap and looked in. "Master," he said, "let me put my nose in your tent. It's cold and stormy out here." "By all means," said the Arab, "and welcome" as he turned over and went to sleep.

A little later the Arab awoke to find that the camel had not only put his nose in the tent but his head and neck also. The camel, who had been turning his head from side to side, said, "I will take but little more room if I place my forelegs within the tent. It is difficult standing out here." "Yes, you may put your forelegs within," said the Arab, moving a little to make room, for the tent was small.

Finally, the camel said, "May I not stand wholly inside? I keep the tent open by standing as I do." "Yes, yes," said the Arab. "Come wholly inside. Perhaps it will be better for both of us." So the camel crowded in. The Arab with difficulty in the crowded quarters again went to sleep. When he woke up the next time, he was outside in the cold and the camel had the tent to himself.


http://camelphotos.com/tales_nose.html

Wikipedia claims it's a Victorian invention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel's_nose

[MercutioATC]

9. I see your point, but that can be said about anything...

The fact is that forums like these are a chance to appeal to those would not normally vote for a Democrat without being beholden to anybody.

I think it's a silly dog and pony show, but it causes no real harm and it makes some people feel better.

[Barb in Atl]

10. I was making Demeter's argument this morning...

to a co-worker that was pleased by the forum.

When did this start? Carter with "I have lusted in my heart" or did it become hardcore with Raygun? Why is someone's religious faith even an issue? Didn't compassionate, christian, conservative gwb teach us anything about folks that claim faith and act in a most evil way?

In any case, the harm it does is make it acceptable and, like the camel story, likely to take a more prominent role in the feature.

...Imagine, you have have great policies, great ideas for single payer health care, better schools, better care for the elderly, better national defense and better diplomacy. But no one will listen to you because you're an atheist, wiccan, buddhist or just plain agnostic.

[susankh4]

8. There were some ridiculous questions asked, to be sure...

but, all in all, it was more of an open forum about issues that are hard to grapple with in a religiously diverse society.

I was pleasantly surprised at what I saw this morning. Posted all of the segments on Hillary's interview in my journal, except the last... which was out and out stupid on CNN's part.

(and, as a disclaimer.... I am not a member of any of the mainstream religions in this country.)

McCain was strategically correct to stay away, tho. Because many in his party would be intolerant of diverse opinions.. and I am sure he know that.