Gore Vidal: I Knew John F. Kennedy, & Believe Me Barack Obama Is the Better Leader

[oldpol]

Source: The Times of London

His views on the man the Democratic candidate will have to beat are even more brutal than his views on Hillary: “ You could beat McCain! I’ve never met anyone in America who has the slightest respect for him. He went to a private school and came bottom of his class. He smashed up his aeroplane and became a prisoner of war, which he is trying to parlay into ‘war hero’.”

In his view, McCain is “a goddamned fool. He was on television talking about mortgages, and it was quite clear he does not know what a mortgage is. His head rattles as he walks”.

However, in Vidal’s eyes, McCain is just a symptom of the real malaise affecting America today: the cynical subversion of the US constitution. “The Bush people”, he says, “have virtually got rid of Magna Carta and habeas corpus. In a normal republic I would probably have raised an army and overthrown them. It will take a hundred years to put it all back.”

By now he has worked himself up to a crisp fury: “Those neocons, lawyers, the big corporations – worse than that, extremists – want to get rid of the great power of oversight of the executive. See what they’ll try to do to Obama. They’re crooks. They’re just gangsters. They are the enemy of the United States. There’s no such thing as a war on terrorism. It’s idiotic. There are slogans. It’s advertising, which is the only art form we’ve invented and developed. It’s lies.”
Vidal has never been less than fully engaged with the politics of his country – but he seems angrier than I have ever seen him before. This may be because he has returned to live in the States only recently, after spending more than 30 years in Italy. He seems revived and refreshed by his furious reengagement with American politics. http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3952774.ece

Read more: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3952774.ece

[BlooInBloo]

1. "His head rattles as he walks" - HAHAHA!!! Now that Rorty is gone, I read more Vidal.

EDIT: That is, when I'm not re-reading Rorty, which I am at the moment. :)

[PDJane]

2. He's a thinker and a fine intellect,

A man who understands law and the rights of the commons.

We need more of him.

[pnwmom]

98. We didn't need any of his thoughts about the Kennedy's.

Not today, with Ted in the hospital with seizures of an unknown cause.

And Kennedy heartily endorsed Obama. It seems a nasty way for Obama's supporters to repay him -- trying to promote Obama by disparaging Ted's assassinated brothers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. self delete

Having read what he actually said.

[pnwmom]

126. Thanks for making the effort.

As someone who also is guilty of the occasional delayed link-read, better late than never!

[Ken Burch]

150. Vidal wasn't slamming JFK. He was paying Obama a compliment.

And no slight was intended towards Teddy in this at all.

[Ishoutandscream2]

3. Recommended. Vidal speaks blunt truth

"The Bush people have virtually got rid of Magna Carta and habeas corpus." Vidal hits one out of the park.

[sallyseven]

36. Vidal is also an ignorant, obnoxious

damn fool. He is of no consequence. Always hated the Kennedy's.

[cyclezealot]

37. Vidal my be obnoxious due to his frankness.

ignorant, . A little catch up reading is in order should one think that. Vidal is one of the best researchers in the last 50 years.

[pnwmom]

79. And Ted Kennedy is one of the greatest progressives in the Senate.

And endorsed Obama months ago. And yet, in the same day Ted is hospitalized, an Obama supporter posts a Vidal article disparaging Kennedy's assassinated brother, and scores of DUers recommend it up.

[mrbluto]

118. "Lighten-up Francis."

A great line from the movie "Stripes" delivered by Warren Oates.

An all star cast (Bill Murray, John Candy, etc. etc.) - Check it out.

BTW: I'm no super Obama fan, and I find your observation just a bit over wrought.

It reminds me of just after 9/11 when the second Lord of the Rings movie was about to hit the theaters and all these people were up in arms about the title and how insensitive it was:

The Two Towers.

"Change the name!", "Consider the children!" was the hue and cry.

J.F'ing C. - the book had been named that for about a half century and all of a sudden some delicate souls wanted the name changed.

I have the same sentiment for your comment. (except that I wonder if you're sincere, or just grinding a handy axe)

Google my posts - I'm no cheerleader for Obama, but you, or anyone, who injects that sort of crap into the conversation needs to get called on it.

[Raster]

131. Thank you!

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. ...

:thumbsup:

[pretzel4gore]

83. 'Burr' was a great read

'Lincoln' even better! (Norman's friends just won't let go, eh)

[Moochy]

95. wild guess, a hillary fan?

[mrbluto]

116. If he's ignorant - then give me some of whatever he's drinking!

What do you base your opinion on?

Vidal I've heard of, read some of. (I've always had a soft spot in my heart for pagans after reading Julian)

You, I have no idea who you are.

That doesn't make you wrong.

But a little exposition might help us out.

[BlooInBloo]

136. Saying Vidal is ignorant is close to the stupidest possible statement possible in English.

[katty]

148. Gore V always does,luv:"McCain's head rattle when he walks"

mcSame is a nobody, if he didn't switch wives and marry Cindy$$$ he would have no career.

[babylonsister]

4. Crooks, gangsters, amen. nt

[featherman]

5. "War on Terror" is a cynical advertising slogan - exactly

[ooglymoogly]

11. self delete wrong place

[pretzel4gore]

84. War on Tots, more like it...

nt

[shenmue]

6. That's pretty funny... Obama's been in the Senate for three years, JFK was president...

I see the comparison. :puke:

:dunce:

:sarcasm:

The crush famous people have on the very green Senator is unbelievable. It's like handing control of a university over to the kid who has a beanie on his head and can't find the classroom.

[Frisbee]

13. So can I assume...

You are supporting Hillary? Sometimes someone comes along, who despite being less experienced, has the right ideas and hasn't been corrupted by the "system". Frankly, I think we've had enough of the 60+ year old Washington insiders who owe everything to the corporations that have supported them. This election might be this country's last chance to right itself after the last everything it's gone through since Reagan was in office. I doubt Hillary is the answer, and I KNOW McCain isn't.

[greenbriar]

15. very well stated

thank you

[mrbluto]

120. Did you consider Edwards?

Just asking.

[Window]

18. Apparently, they know something you don't.

[HannibalBarca]

19. Perhaps..

they see him something in him that you don't? Blinded by your bias, afterall I will take the opinion of G.Vidal over yours anyday, not meaning to be offensive just that his commentary carries slightly more weight in my estimation. Even the ever cynical polemiscist Chirstopher Hitchens seems to like him (Iraq war support notwithstanding). I heard Obama speaking on Iraq and Mc Cain's plans for it and he deconstructed and ridiculed them so expertly refering to the inevitable generation of hatred and ill-will towards the US, he demonstrated a clarity of understanding I have not seen for a long time.

[Honeycombe8]

21. Obama has almost 12 years of legislative experience, and a decade longer of street-community

leadership work, plus an intellectual and academic pedigree.

Clinton has about 6 years of legislative experience, plus some volunteer work in politics after college, plus First Lady "experience." Oh, and she failed the bar exam the first time she took it.

But the big plus is....the ability to see and know that the Iraq War was a very bad idea. Obama could see that, along with almost half the country. Clinton, alas, was blinded by her faith in Bush (or whatever).

[madrchsod]

29. try google before you make a mistake....

so you do`t make yourself look so foolish....

[tabatha]

32. Someone who was very green with respect to biology

was Darwin. Look what he did.

It has been suggested that because he was not schooled in the way that others were, that he was able to see things from a different perspective.

By the way I would take Vidal's opinion over yours any day.

[hisownpetard]

57. It's not easy being green.

[tabatha]

59. "unschooled".

[eridani]

47. He found 1.5 million small donors, and has the sense to hire actual organizers--

--instead of amoral shitstains like Mark Penn.

[krispos42]

64. He's also a well-educated, self-made person

McCain or Clinton can't say that. McCain's father and grandfather were flag rank in the Navy and he's married to a multi-millionaire that owns a private jet. Clinton is where she is today in poliitics in part because of the success of her husband. This of course does not make him automatically better than McCain or Clinton, but it is a point in his favor.

Also, he's a Constitutional scholar and community leader. He's been elected and re-elected. He's seen what works and what doesn't. And he doesn't have the creeping corruption of lobbyists and big money that affects the other two. I don't believe he has the "Washington-insider" disease that makes Democrats and Republicans alike subservient to the Establishment.

I doubt he's the best person for the job, but he ain't half bad, and he's better than the other two. McCain is in the neocon's pocket and Clinton is a DLCer.

[mrbluto]

121. Why your opinion has swayed me just a little bit.

In your post you say:

I doubt he's the best person for the job, but he ain't half bad

What a breath of fresh air!

You like him, but don't need to shout from the mountains that Obama is the best thing since sliced bread.

It acknowledges that many of the best suited to govern can't stand what a campaign demands in this screwed-up system.

If only yours was the typical tone, rather than the exception, around here.

In my experience radical enthusiasms are insufficient basis for real change.

[uberblonde]

128. If Clinton is a DLCer....

What does it mean that Obama has a DLC senior economist as his top economic policy advisor?

Just wondering about your take on that...

[gmudem]

100. JFK was a Senator for only one term.

But I'm sure you knew that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

113. I disagree that Kennedy was one of our worst presidents,

but he really was no liberal. He was a conservative cold-warrior who pragmatically took on advantageous liberal positions. He started the Peace Corp NOT to do good around the world, but to one-up the soviets who were also offering educational and technological aid to third world countries to draw them into their sphere of influence. He was slow off the mark in dealing with civil rights but, like Eisenhower before him, recognized that WW2 and Korea had brought African Americans into the mainstream as in no other previous time in our history, and there was no way it was going to reverse itself.

I also disagree with him on his characterization of Bobby - just remembering Bobby's work with McCarthy and HUAC there is good reason for his mistrust of him. I believe that his brother's assassination fundamentally changed Bobby from the commie-hunter of his early years. Unfortunately, we will never know.

People who see the Kennedys as icons of the American left really don't know what they are talking about. The only one who comes close to that is Ted - the least respected of the bunch, and possibly the best.

And Ted DID back Obama.

Truth is, this is "throw Vidal under the bus" time for the Clinton crowd.

[Frisbee]

7. Finally...

Someone who sees it the way I see it. "He smashed up his aeroplane and became a prisoner of war, which he is trying to parlay into ‘war hero’.” "

I have been saying this for some time now. I am just sooo tired of being caught by the enemy automatically making him a "war hero". He is a fool, and a dangerous one at that. It seems that Vidal has him pegged, I just hope he will be very visible throughout the campaign.

[Divernan]

28. McCain lost 4 planes before being shot down in the 5th, 2 of them while he was in flight school.

He should have been washed out of pilot training, but for his family connections. And graduating fifth from the bottom of his class in Annapolis, he should no way have been admitted to Naval Aviator Flight School in the first place - but got bumped ahead of many more deserving candidates because his daddy and grand daddy were admirals.

And there's some question about the circumstances of his being shot down, to wit whether he was flying carelessly, as per usual for him. Also, he was only a POW for a short time before the torturing of POWs was stopped - and he was seen as a valuable tool by the VC. There's an account by a fellow POW - a letter explaining why he wouldn't vote for McCain - it was on DU but I didn't save the link.

[klook]

41. "Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain" - military.com

Is this the op-ed you were talking about? http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html
- Philip Butler, Ph.D

A few choice quotes:

"John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy."

"...he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates."

"John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals."

"...many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda."

"...there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor - 8, Service Crosses - 42, Silver Stars - 590, Bronze Stars - 958 and Purple Hearts - 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many - not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe."

"Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did."

"I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button."

[mrbluto]

122. Your sig.

It's funny, but just as much a product of prejudice as many other things I've seen you might not find so funny.

I find it mildly annoying in that it basically discounts the possibility one might have sound reasons (not racially motivated) for reserving one's enthusiasm about an Obama administration.

[dixiegrrrrl]

67. So, compared to King George,

he was a bit braver ( stay IN the military)
but
says dumber things.

Comes out even...they are both a waste of oxygen.

[nicholas9999]

92. caution

I am willing to believe every word of your post, but I also
believe that it leads in a dangerous direction. Questioning
McCain's military service is likely to energize his
supporters. McCain paid a price for his service in the
military, and we should leave it at that, IMO. 

On the other hand, what should be questioned is whether
"war hero" prepares one for anything in particular.
We can for example admit that McCain is an admirable guy for
his service, but there is no evidence whatever that McCain is
executive material. Being a war hero doesn't make a person a
good policy analyst, for example, and certainly doesn't mean
that such a war hero knows how to run a government or even run
a meeting in a way that produces good decisions. Senate
experience is also a poor indicator (although this is also
true for Clinton and Obama).

Being a war hero is an admirable thing, but it is not
diagnostic of presidential competence. As a demonstration of
this, McCain's recent comments about our stance toward Iran
and his plan for Iraq indicate clearly he has not much of a
grasp of how to deal with our problems in the Middle East nor
of how to combat terror more generally.

I believe we should give him the benefit of the doubt on the
war hero thing, but relentlessly build on the idea that it is
fine to admire McCain for his military service, but it is
silly to believe that his experiences in Vietnam in any way
qualify him for the job opening we're trying to fill.

[klyon]

108. good post welcome

I hope people see him your way. War hero is so romantic. The sheep will follow.

[bulloney]

74. Just like George HW Bush was a "war hero" by sending his partners in his plane to their deaths

while he escaped alive.

[pretzel4gore]

86. imagine if the media ever told the people about that?

not to mention his linkage to the JFK murder!...no way would the bush family have ever got anywhere in political power. And the US would be few trillion dollars wealthier (that's just factoring the youngster's costs!) But they hid everything that could damage the bush gang's interest (and the mass media will now have to pretend that fact doesn't exist; thus even more mucking up the historical record!)

[ToughLuck]

8. Thank you Vidal, I appreciate hearing an in your face analysis of these last 8 years

Thank God someone like this speaks out..refreshing is an understatement!!!!

[Kaleko]

20. I was just going to call his outspokenness refreshing.

But you are right, that's an understatement. It's empowering to all those who have lost their voice in America.

[Dr.Phool]

9. Kicked and Rec!

I love Gore Vidal. Nobody can quite say it like he can.

[Benhurst]

10. Gore dislikes the Kennedys intensely. He's one of my favorite writers,

but take anything he says about the Kennedys with a grain of salt.

I remember his saying onetime that the Kennedy brothers were "all profile and no courage," a play on the title of JFK's book.

[many a good man]

17. Jackie O. was his stepsister

He has insider knowledge.

[Benhurst]

26. True; but I think he is still a bit biased agaInst all the Kennedys.

A good one on Jackie: I saw Vidal on a talk show just after she announced she was marrying the Greek shipping magnate. Everyone was expressing disbelief she could marry such a disgusting old man.

Vidal said nothing.

Finally one of the other guests, pointing out that Jackie was his stepsister after all, asked Vidal point blank what he thought of her upcoming wedding.

"Perfectly fitting," he deadpanned.

[pretzel4gore]

87. wow. i just finished 'The Day John Died' about JFK jr!

by some guy named anderson. And the story seemed pretty clear about why Jackie married Ari (75 machine gun totin security men kept intruders/paparazi away, a private island the size of NY City, 1/2 dozen jets and so on, as compared to a 4 man s service detail that shadowed John Junior until he was 16, and was polite to autograph seekers and cameramen)
One complaint: John Junior met Fidel Castro in Havana in his teens, and anderson claims Fidel told John that he 'regretted' denying Lee Oswald a visa to visit Cuba a month before Nov22/63! This is nonsense. How anderson, a former time mag writer who wrote 30 books on famous people etc, could claim Oswald wanted to visit Cuba when he was up to his neck in the belly cracker schemes to murder president Kennedy in the summer/fall of 1963, plus he also had a regular job, his only income, at texas school book depository; iow more typical republican liar shit, exploiting JFK jr story as easy opportunity to lie about his dad's murder! jessus h crist

[bemildred]

141. That's not it.

He just thinks their reputations for public service are vastly over-inflated. If I read him correctly, he considers them to be members of the idle and self-interested ruling classes, like himself. But he condemns them no more than he condemns himself. His point is not so much that they are terrible people, but that they should not be running things and that we should not be worshiping them as political saviours. If we want to be saved, we're going to have to save ourselves.

[ExPatLeftist]

12. No one speaks truth to power like Gore Vidal. n/t

[ooglymoogly]

14. Best political mind of the century

A mind that sees through crap like an all seeing X-ray.

[oldpol]

142. Vidal nailed McCain right there to a 'T'

glad to have him back living in the US! (and hopefully visitng Charlies Rose soon)

[Window]

16. K/R.

Damn. He certainly doesn't mince words. LOL!

:kick:

[Oleladylib]

22. Cheap shot...Obama hasn't come close to being tested or proven..

How dare GV...even insinuate such! Oh..........that's right the source...yup, consider the source.

[phrigndumass]

23. Gore Vidal is God!

Lovin' it! :D

[pnwmom]

80. So you hate the Kennedy's too?

“I never believed in Jack’s charisma,” Vidal says shortly. JFK, he believes, was “one of our worst presidents”; Bobby, his brother, was “a phoney, a little Torquemada”; and their father, Joseph, was “a crook – should have been in jail”.

So much for Camelot. “But Jack had great charm,” he adds. “So has Obama. He’s better educated than Jack. And he’s been a working senator. Jack never went to the office – he wanted the presidency and his father bought it for him.”

______________

Nasty stuff to put on DU on the day Ted is hospitalized.

[phrigndumass]

137. You got that out of four words from me? Pathetic!

I believe you are projecting your inner hate upon me.

[Peace Patriot]

24. Well, I can see why you used the "door-buster" of JFK vs. Obama to get us to open

this thread, and then didn't include Vidal's assessment of them. He lambasts JFK to extremes I wouldn't have thought possible except in a John Bircher. Way off the mark, Mr. Vidal. Refreshing like being dipped into a vat of acid. And his praise of Obama has a curious twisty dagger to it:

"As for Obama, Vidal has taken time to warm to him. 'I liked the idea of him, but he never managed to get my interest. I was brought around by his overall intelligence – specifically when he did his speech on race and religion.'

"In Vidal’s opinion, 'he’s our best demagogue since Huey Long or Martin Luther King.'"

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3952774.ece

Demagogue? He's thinking of the original Greek, of course. That's very Vidalian. But did he really mean to slander both Obama and M.L. King with the modern connotations of this word? It's come to mean little more than liar and hypnotizer of the great unwashed, for evil purposes. Hitler. Stalin. Really, I don't know what to make of it.

As for JFK, he put men on the moon, and got people like me interested in politics and government when I was 16. I don't really care if his daddy was rich. And is Vidal scraping for his meals these days? I usually like Vidal and agree with him, but something's got him down. Gout maybe? Old age?

[Smarmie Doofus]

38. Regardless of *how* he became rich?

>>>>I don't really care if his daddy was rich. >>>>

I do. Vidal doesn't denounce him for being rich. He denounces him for being a 'criminal'.

[Kaleko]

40. See, your post illustrates what I find so refreshing about Gore Vidal.

It's not that I agree with everything he says. Far from it. But there are sparks of sharp-wittedness that he ignites every time he speaks. His words illuminate, they sharply point to hidden doors. It's up to the readers to open them and walk through to see even further than he.

Inspiring, infuriating, thought-provoking, yes - all that and more. An original voice, uniquely American.


(edit typo)

[nicholas9999]

93. old age

I read the Amy Goodman interview in the recent Democracy Now
piece. He _does_ sound as if he's just enjoying being a bit
old and batty! Sorry, not really an opinion, admittedly an
uninformed observation. 

[bonito]

25. It's the damn truth! n/t

[BeatleBoot]

27. I wonder how many Reagan Democrats even know who Gore Vidal is...

[madrchsod]

30. "reagan democrats" is so 80`s

[BeatleBoot]

34. Come take a walk in my neighborhood.

It's so 00's

Alive and well.

Sorry. But true.

Barry can kiss Michigan good-bye.

[Patchuli]

88. Sore Loser?

Get behind the Democratic candidate if you're really a Democrat.

[ima_sinnic]

107. permalinked in my Idiotic/Asinine Predictions file

don't you have an Operation KKKaos meeting to go to?

[verges]

110. Do you really think

the good people of Michigan will think McCain is better? Michigan, that has been hit the hardest by the Bush economy, will support John "I don't understand the economy" McCain? I really hope they are not so short-sighted.

[RTBerry]

31. Sickening, just sickening.

I ask if he thinks Obama has a similar charisma to that of John F Kennedy, whom Vidal got to know because he was related to his wife, Jackie.

“I never believed in Jack’s charisma,” Vidal says shortly. JFK, he believes, was “one of our worst presidents”; Bobby, his brother, was “a phoney, a little Torquemada”

Obama is a nice enough guy, but must we trash the memory of every Democratic hero?

I guess FDR is next in line.

[Smarmie Doofus]

39. No, he liked FDR and worshipped Eleanor. nt

[ToughLuck]

71. I don't agree with Vidal about JFK, its what he said about Bush that I love!

[pnwmom]

78. We shouldn't be putting anti-Kennedy comments on the Greatest Page

on the day the family elder is in the hospital.

It seems a strange way to thank Ted for his support of Obama -- to try to promote Obama by disparaging Kennedy's assassinated brother.

[nicholas9999]

94. thanks

Astute.

[pnwmom]

96. You're welcome. And welcome to DU, nicholas9999! n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## DON'T DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Whatever you do, do not click the link below!

[McCamy Taylor]

35. So good!

:applause:

I love it when Gore Vidal is not afraid to tear down icons. I agree that JFK is not half the man people like to pretend that he was. And Obama is much better. For one thing, Obama is self made. JFK bought his way to the top with his daddy's illegal fortune.

[reprehensor]

42. Vidal on Democracy Now - 5.14.2008

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/14/legendary_author_gore_vidal_on_the

[reprehensor]

43. Ultimate Vidal website...

For anyone who, inconceivable as it seems, is new to this great American treasure;

http://www.pitt.edu/~kloman/vidalframe.html

[pnwmom]

44. A Kennedy-hater on the greatest page on the day Ted Kennedy has a seizure.

DU should be ashamed.

[Straight Shooter]

55. It isn't Kennedy hate that's driving the page. It's Obama love.

Can't you feeeeel the love?

Nasty little comment about RFK by Gore Vidal. That aspect of RFK's character has always been "brushed off" by the left. Check out RFK's history with Joe McCarthy. The man was not all sweetness and light.

[cyclezealot]

109. An unfortunate co incidence, I hope

we don't need to get all defensive. We know JFK was a hero figure , but not a saint. Even RFK had policy differences with JFK. As did Kennedy's speech write recently made famous by his criticisms of JFK.

[Raster]

130. You've. made. your. point. Not all of us are still enthralled with Camelot.

EVERY family has skeletons in their closet, including the Kennedys. And everyone has their opinion, including you and Gore Vidal.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

45. Gore Vidal was AMAZINGLY prescient back in 2000

In this article by Gore Vidal written in December 21, 2000 and appearing in the January, 2001 issue of The Nation magazine, he must have had a magic crystal ball, as he warned us of wars to come, taxation benefitting the wealthy, and the message by ChimpCo that terrorists are lurking behind every tree. We hadn't had 9/11 yet. We hadn't had the Iraq War yet. Bush hadn't even been sworn in, but Vidal saw it coming very clearly.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010108/vidal

"...What will the next four years bring? With luck, total gridlock. The two houses of Congress are evenly split. Presidential adventurism will be at a minimum. With bad luck (and adventures), Chancellor Cheney will rule. A former Secretary of Defense, he has said that too little money now goes to the Pentagon even though last year it received 51 percent of the discretionary budget. Expect a small war or two in order to keep military appropriations flowing. There will also be tax relief for the very rich. But bad scenario or good scenario, we shall see very little of the charmingly simian George W. Bush. The military--Cheney, Powell et al.--will be calling the tune, and the whole nation will be on constant alert, for, James Baker has already warned us, Terrorism is everywhere on the march. We cannot be too vigilant. Welcome to Asunción. ..."



I think he's dead wrong about Kennedy. To me, Kennedy had more intelligence, leadership, charisma, education, knowledge, and Presidential stature than every President since him combined. But no one is always right. Some people like Gore Vidal may have an ax to grind of a personal nature. I don't know. Just because I disagree with him about Kennedy, however, doesn't mean he's wrong about other things. And he was amazingly correct about Bush before Bush ever took office.

[girl_interrupted]

48. Being called a demagogue is a compliment?

demagogue : a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power

That's a compliment?



Obama a better leader, more intelligent?

JFK commanded a PT Boat during World War 2 For these actions, Kennedy received the Navy and Marine Corps Medal under the following citation:

"For extremely heroic conduct as Commanding Officer of Motor Torpedo Boat 109 following the collision and sinking of that vessel in the Pacific War Theater on August 1-2, 1943. Unmindful of personal danger, Lieutenant (then Lieutenant, Junior Grade) Kennedy unhesitatingly braved the difficulties and hazards of darkness to direct rescue operations, swimming many hours to secure aid and food after he had succeeded in getting his crew ashore. His outstanding courage, endurance and leadership contributed to the saving of several lives and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

He also won the Purple Heart, Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal and the World War II Victory Medal



He graduated cum laude from Harvard with a degree in international affairs in June 1940, and his thesis was published in July 1940 as a book entitled Why England Slept, and became a bestseller.

He also wrote Profiles in Courage, a book describing eight instances in which U.S. Senators risked their careers by standing by their personal beliefs. The book was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Biography in 1957.

Kennedy represented the state of Massachusetts in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1947 to 1953 as a Democrat, and in the U.S. Senate from 1953 until 1960. Kennedy defeated then Vice President and Republican candidate Richard Nixon in the 1960 U.S. presidential election He is the youngest man and the only practicing Roman Catholic to be elected president. He is also the only president to have won a Pulitzer Prize.



One more thing, as a Congressman, Senator and President, John F Kennedy refused his salary, donating it to charity.


I like Obama, but no way is he better than President Kennedy.

I think Vidal is senile.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

51. Are you responding to my post?

I never said being called a demagogue was a compliment. Are you sure you're responding to me, as I agree with most of what you wrote?

[girl_interrupted]

54. aint_no_life_nowhere No, not responding to you!

Sorry if I gave you that impression!

[pnwmom]

81. You must have missed these quotes by Vidal in the full article at the link:

“I never believed in Jack’s charisma,” Vidal says shortly. JFK, he believes, was “one of our worst presidents”; Bobby, his brother, was “a phoney, a little Torquemada”; and their father, Joseph, was “a crook – should have been in jail”.

So much for Camelot. “But Jack had great charm,” he adds. “So has Obama. He’s better educated than Jack. And he’s been a working senator. Jack never went to the office – he wanted the presidency and his father bought it for him.”

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

89. Why would you think I missed those quotes?

I don't agree with that view of Kennedy and I stated it in my post. I said that I agree with some things Gore Vidal has stated, such as his precise analysis of the incoming Bush Administration in 2000 and I disagree with others.

[Pooka Fey]

106. Thank you for this post.

I need to read "Profiles in Courage"; I had forgotten it existed, but I remember now that my parents had a copy. I'm putting it on my book list. Thanks for the time you took to put some facts on the table about JFK. I was 3 when he was assassinated. It's nice to be reminded of him in these political days of darkness.

[Glorfindel]

46. Thank you for posting this; Gore Vidal is my idol and my hero

I've been a huge fan of his since I read "Julian" and "The City and the Pillar" in 1966. Everything he has predicted over the years has come true, but, like Cassandra, he's always right and nobody ever listens. I haven't read his two latest books, but they're on my list and I will soon. This month's "Esquire" magazine has a "What I've Learned" column by Mr. Vida and some related material. :toast:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Do People Ever Read An Article Before Recommending It?

“I never believed in Jack’s charisma,” Vidal says shortly. JFK, he believes, was “one of our worst presidents”; Bobby, his brother, was “a phoney, a little Torquemada”; and their father, Joseph, was “a crook – should have been in jail”.

[nichomachus]

53. Gore calls 'em as he sees 'em

Even if you don't like the way he sees 'em.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. If Vidal Was Half The Man The Hero Of PT 109 Was He Would Be Twice The Man He Is Now

I'm just calling them the way I see em...

Ditto for Bobby...

[nichomachus]

60. People you like

aren't always right and people you don't like aren't always wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. I See... As Long As You Trash A Rethug You Can Trash A Dem Also

“I never believed in Jack’s charisma,” Vidal says shortly. JFK, he believes, was “one of our worst presidents”; Bobby, his brother, was “a phoney, a little Torquemada”; and their father, Joseph, was “a crook – should have been in jail”.


If what he says is indeed true the Democrats should rescind their saint like status in the party...

[nichomachus]

65. I think Gore might agree with you

and he was related to them -- and, unlike many people, he has arguments to back up what he says. I don't always agree with what he says, but he does present valid arguments.

I'm afraid, however, that reasoned argument is pretty close to dead in the US.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. He's Entitled To His Opinion, Of Course...

I just think it's remarkable that an article trashing the Kennedys gets so many hosannas on this board...If a right winger wrote it absent the Obama praise he would be lambasted...

It's the , well, hypocrisy...

If my logic is flawed please show me where... I try to be intellectually honest and consistent...

Bobby- "a Torquemada and a phoney"... He knew that running for pres could result in his assassination and he did it anyway... That took unfathomable courage...

[mrbluto]

119. Somehow....

...your comment wouldn't be quite so telling (about you) without your unsupported protestation of truthfulness.

You call them as you see them?

Who appointed you referee? Don't most people? On what scale of "manhood" are you measuring?

Aw shucks - you just wanted to pipe up with your knowledge of fractions, didn't you?

I bet didn't much matter who was being discussed, did it? I'm guessing it just mattered that he was being compared to JFK, an officially sanctioned secular saint of the aristocracy.

I don't have any problem with the Kennedys, but swaggering veneration of modern American royalty is exactly the problem we're having lately.

[Ishoutandscream2]

69. I am a big Kennedy fan, but I agree with Gore's assessment of "Dad"

Never a fan of Joseph. Didn't like his relationship with FDR. I still like Gore's frankness, always have. But again, we can agree to disagree.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. We Can Debate Joseph Kennedy's Character

His remarks about Jack and Bobby were hateful... I suspect the fact that Bobby hated his guts didn't endear himself to Vidal...

[Ishoutandscream2]

72. Yes, I'm a big Bobby fan.

This is the Gore Vidal we have all known. I respect his endorsement of Obama in this article, and he speaks truth concerning the Bushes. I guess one has to pick his spots when it comes to reading remarks from Vidal. He does tend to jump from one topic to another. You find yourself loving him one moment, and disliking him the next.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. I Have Read A Lot Of Vidal

He does not like the Kennedys...

I do not think the Kennedys are saints but I do think they were committed liberals and generally tried to do the right thing...

[pnwmom]

97. I don't think that this was the right day to attack any of the Kennedy's,

given Ted's hospitalization for what could be a serious condition.

And it especially doesn't make sense -- since Kennedy heartily endorsed Obama - for Obama people to try to build up their candidate by tearing down the Kennedys.

[Henny Penny]

50. Next up... an exclusive with Saint Peter... "I knew Jesus...and trust me..."

[beezlebum]

52. "judas!!..."

[FiveGoodMen]

149. That was his fourth interview on the subject, right?

[Xipe Totec]

58. Not to detract from Obama,

because he is after all a fine person,

I wish Obama's supporters would find a better way to promote their candidate, than by casting aspersions on other Democrats.

It seems to me counterproductive.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Why Do You Have To Denigrate The Martyred Kennedys To Elevate Obama?

~

[Xipe Totec]

134. Indeed

my point precisely.

[and-justice-for-all]

61. Merciless and smashing read!! nt

[JI7]

75. i think Obama is better overall than JFK

he doesn't need to be "the next jfk, rfk etc".

Obama himself is unique and appealing and someone others should aspire to be like.

[Faygo Kid]

76. What the hell is this all about on DU?

Why is this highlighted? This is nothing more than drivel.

JFK was great. Barack is great. They are, hopefully, the bookends of my life.

Why is this getting so much attention? Vidal is a great writer, and egotist. He couldn't carry Bruce Catton's water, when it comes to American history, and he knows it.

[wisteria]

77. I support Obama, but I think this comment is over the top. n/t

[Divine Discontent]

82. mouth drops open....

amazing.


KICK!

REC!



New Obama items weekly!
www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable
www.cafepress.com/mamasforobama08

[Robeson]

85. Easy recommend. My wife and I met and talked with Vidal last year...

...it was one of the highlights of my life. Thanks for posting this...:thumbsup:

[lligrd]

90. I Love Vidal. He Is A Great Intellect

and has wonderful way with words. He's also a great truth teller.

[Wetzelbill]

91. Wow, Gore sounds pretty bitter about the Kennedys....

I love Gore Vidal's work, but that's pretty rough. My grandfather was President of the National Congress of American Indians in the 1960s, he was friends with JFK and Bobby. My Uncle was Mike Mansfield's senate page and carried Bobby Kennedy's briefcase for him nearly every morning. When my grandfather died in 2003, Teddy Kennedy had his office get ahold of my family - they called my dad - and said if we wanted he would try to come to a service himself or send Bobby Jr because he considered my grandfather to be like family. So I may be biased, but he sounds like he's even more biased in his hate for the Kennedy brothers.

That being said, there is no way you could say Obama is a better leader than JFK. Obama hasn't dealt with anything like the Cuban Missile Crisis, for example. It's quite possible that he could be, but there is no way to truly know that right now. Obama is a fantastic candidate with limited time on a national stage, he's smart, passionate, thoughtful and has a lot going for him. Can he be great? For sure.

But JFK was a great man, RFK too. If they're overrated it's not by much.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

99. He's past his prime

and the place was filled with gangsters crooks and thieves when Kennedy was president. And he had a loud mouth back than too. In those days he loved to brag about his having been a enlisted man in the Army.Just what the hell do you think was meant by ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country? Do you think it was meant to invigorate the nation or something?Do you think people at that time did not know what that meant? After eight years of Eisenhower? Hell that statement was on a prep school wall , it read this way, ask not what your college can do for you but what you can do for your college. Get real ,it was directed at the crooks and gangsters , a fallow up to THE BUCK STOPS HERE, the republican hay day is over.Maybe you should get to know how Vidal knew the Kennedy's ,who his half sister was. What do you think your going to do, turn Vidal into a Obama saint? His mouth was always his own worst enemy.And that's just what Vidal and Obama have in common.

Sure, Vidal want's back in the lime.And England is just the place to play.

[Wetzelbill]

101. yeah I'm not fully sure what you're getting at in some of what you say

Yeah I know how Gore knows the Kennedys and I know who his stepsister was, not half-sister. And "turn Vidal into a Obama saint?" that doesn't make sense.

I don't know, but did you even mean to post a reply to my comment?

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

102. No it was not a response to your post

yours was the last.
you know how Vidal knows the Kennedy's though.
My point is his mouth is his own worst enemy and it always has been.
Saint-. Obama worshipers ,it's that way. You just can't say anything negative about Obama with his faithful followers around. Unless of course you can and will.And I can and will .

[scarletwoman]

114. Just a heads up -- when you click "reply " on a post, make sure it is the actual post to which you

are replying. If you want to post a response to the OP (the "originating post") of the thread, then you click "reply" on that post, not on the last post in the thread.

sw

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

129. Will do, thanks!

[Douglas Carpenter]

103. interesting article

[dogday]

104. It was only a matter of time before JFK was dissed

along with every other Democratic Leader and President... I am feeling ashamed of what I am reading.. Really fucking ashamed....

[eridani]

105. What you most need to understand about Vidal--

--is his vast loathing for the American Security state established after WW II by Truman. Eisenhower kept it going, and Kennedy put it on steroids. Vidal sees everything through that frame.

[scarletwoman]

112. Thank you for injecting some much-needed reality into this discussion.

So much political conversation here on DU takes place on only the upper 2 inches or so of the ground beneath our feet -- with no reference -- or even knowledge, whatsoever to the massive tectonic plates that underlie all of it.

It's extremely frustrating.

sw

(edited for punctuation error)

[mrbluto]

123. I second that.

The sentiment regarding the discourse on DU - not the editing for punctuation. B)

[martymar64]

138. As we all should

We went completely to the Dark side when we started letting Nazis into our own intelligence services, i.e. Reinhard Gehlen and Operation Paperclip.

[CaptJasHook]

115. I wish Kurt Vonnegut was still alive, i'd like to hear what he would say, too. nt

[billdemo]

117. If you're going to support comments made by Gore Vidal

If you're going to support comments made by Gore Vidal, you should know what else he said about the Kennedys. Anong other things, he accused RFK of being a "homosexual" because, as Vidal's odd logic went, RFK had a lot of children and was using them to "cover up his homosexuality".

So if you're going to use his words as an endorsement of Obama, you should be aware that he is a crank who says things to get attention.

JFK was a congressman for 6 years and a US Senator for 8 years. He was raised by his father to be President, an ambassador who was once considered as a possible presidential candidate himself. JFK was also a decorated war hero who wrote a treatise on why the US was wrong to consider appeasement before WW2.

So please, no more comparing Obama to JFK or RFK.

[mrbluto]

124. I agree with one thing you said.

The word "Please"

The rest of it was you getting on a high-horse and ordering people around.

Charming.

BTW - doesn't "He was raised by his father to be President" set off alarm bells for you?

I'm not dissing JFK, but it's chilling to see people (and you're one of them) in the act of cultivating, and accepting, the definition of a new class of royals.

[scarletwoman]

125. And not just any royals, SAINTED royals, the hems of whose robes we are not worthy to kiss.

One-dimensional, dualistic thinking -- black/white, all good/all bad -- is the death of intelligent analysis.

Mythology is useful when seen in its proper light as metaphor, but people have got to get over the notion that there's such a thing as flawless heroes in the real world.

And, I do not want to digress too far from your central point: ..."the act of cultivating, and accepting, the definition of a new class of royals."

I think a lot of it has to with the authoritarian follower thing: just tell me what to do/think so I don't have to figure it out for myself

We'd generally much prefer to have benevolent despots directing our collective fate, than to take the reins ourselves -- because to attempt to do so, would necessarily mean that we'd need to make common cause with people we don't much like. And the reason we don't much like certain people is because we have been trained in dualistic thinking, to the severe detriment of critical thinking.

sw

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

133. There is a certain responsibility that comes

with taking hold of those reins that remains forevermore. Therefore to find the courage to take that step forward, the duality of your personal conflict may fall between the consequences of your actions ,should you be wrong and the responsibility that comes with taking that courageous or bold step forward.There is no turning back.
Isn't it the safe bet to remain behind? Wouldn't the world as you know it seem to be less tiresome? Why does it have to be so complicated?

When that choice is made and you do step forward, it is not about you.
It is all about how you do what you do and the reasons behind your actions.

[eridani]

127. That is seriously weird coming from someone whose 50 year life partner was male

Vidal had usually rejected sexual orientation characterization, disowning even "bisexual". In his autobioraphy, he stated that he never has sex with friends, and that his 50 year relationship did not include sex for just that reason.

Maybe for awhile he was into that amateur psychoanalysis thing that was popular in the 40s and 50s.

[Raster]

135. JFK was NOT "...raised by this father to be President...." That was his older brother, Joseph, Jr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Jr.

As for Joe Kennedy, Sr.: bootlegger, insider trader, speculator. Not everything that shimmers is gold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy%2C_Sr.

[martymar64]

139. Plus, JFK made Clinton look like an amateur

when it came to banging chicks in the WH while Jackie was gone. He and Bobby were also both doing Marilyn Monroe up to the time leading to her death. He was even banging Judy Campbell while she was also banging Sam Giancana. How's that for compromising national security?
Also nobody talks about his greenlighting the assassination of President Diem of South Vietnam just one month shy of his own murder.
He was charismatic, but by no means a great president. FDR was heads and shoulder above JFK in greatness. Plus I really have an issue with Joseph P's nazi sympathizing while he was ambassador to Great Britain.

[Leo 9]

132. Kd & Rd

Great stuff!

[Rob_4_Obama]

140. High praise indeed from a top figure in left-wing thought-n/t

[JCMach1]

143. This snippet is VERY MISLEADING- Vidal is a Hillary supporter

He said this on BBC Hardtalk in an interview with Bob Sackur (the interview aired today, May 22nd)

In the show he slammed both JFK, for Bay of Pigs and Vietnam escalation.

And, he slammed Obama's rhetoric as a Chicago Liberal cliches...

He also slammed McCain as "Mr. Magoo"...

[ShortnFiery]

144. Yeah, Vidal criticizes ALL. I think he's becoming boorish in his old age.

:(

[JCMach1]

145. He is the GRUMPY OLD LIBERAL now, yes

His praise for Hillary consisted of a (very) funny story...

[Elspeth]

146. Read the article and see if you think this is racist:

"In his view Barack Obama has won; and if the nomination is taken away from him, “I fear what our black population might do. There has never been a revolution of blacks – yet”."

Shades of Los Angeles burning?

[katty]

147. love Gore V - great mind-thank god he is still here at this time