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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 12:56 PM
Original message
What Conservatives Just Don't Understand.
One of the things that right-wing politicians in this nation will never understand is how to properly care for the economic concerns of the middle and lower class. Historically, the political system that they run by today would have for the most part worked the best for them. That is, the idea of Adam Smith's invisible hand controlling the outcome of the economy. In short, what he claims is that the economy should be left to its own devices and that it will regulate itself. (Granted it's slightly more complicated than a one sentence answer, but that will suffice for my argument.) In his time, this was a seemingly viable option because of who was important and how they came to be such and how they almost always remained as such.

You see, that for hundreds of years in European hierarchies, nothing much had changed. Sure, the names varied (albeit usually just by a number or familiar name). But, generally speaking, the wealthy few stayed wealthy and the poor stayed poor. There was no real risk for the wealthy elite to worry about becoming poor. The world that Adam Smith wrote about was one in which the economy could shift from year to year, but in general the wealthy elite remained such regardless of what happened. In his world the invisible hand was good enough, because there was no real threat of a member of the wealthy elite actually losing their status.

Many reasons tell us why. Firstly, because they were landed. That is, they owned land and that land was birthright, and not used in economic dealings. Simply put, even if all else failed, a wealthy elite person could fall back on their land and use it and its labor (or potential army) to amass wealth. Secondly, because the world seemed to be a much larger place. Undoubtedly, the fact that communication was more difficult limited the danger of high risk / quick loss or gain investments.

Regardless of why however, the fact remains that Adam Smith wrote about a situation that was prominent at his time and one that is not particularly relevant today. Today there is a middle class whereas in feudal times and through the Renaissance the idea of a middle class as we know it today (one that has higher than subsistence income) was all but non-existent except in a few cases where it was still quite small. And certainly it was ignorable by Adam Smith and the wealthy elite in Great Britain.

Fast forward to today and the fact that we have a large middle class. While the wealthy elite of today may still (many times) ignore the fact that the middle class exists, many middle class people as well as working class people have taken up this Smithian invisible hand theory for themselves and at a detriment to themselves. For, you see, the middle and lower class today (and always) has something very real to lose under the system (free market capitalism) that Adam Smith describes. The fact is that free market capitalism does work, but it works solely for those who have nothing to lose, those that will always remain rich. The middle and lower classes don't have that guarantee. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The middle and lower classes depend (under free market capitalism) on a continuous bull market. But, when the bubble bursts (as it always does) they are the ones that feel the impact worst because they lose enough to put them back into or below subsistence living.

The fact is that free market capitalism was and may still be the best system for the very rich. But it is not the right system for the rest of the United States today. The middle class is an important part of this nation, because it is something that is decidedly "American". That's not to say that it is systemic of America, but that it is one of the things that we as a nation claim to support: the middle class. Because we are all equal under the law even if others claim we're not. There are those who use their desire for a free market system who claim that we are not because it is in their own best interest to do so. But they shouldn't speak for us.

There are also those who claim that communism is the way to go. Even that it is at the opposite end of the spectrum and therefore must be right. Unfortunately, they are just as wrong as those who are for free market capitalism. Both free market capitalism and strict communism fall to the same flaws: personal interest. Those with power are always looking out for themselves. In free market capitalism rich business owners have all of the power and therefore make all of the decisions that must be made. In strict communism, the government has all of the power and makes all of the decisions and incidentally are also the rich because they own everything. In reality, there is no difference between free market capitalism and communism EXCEPT THE TITLES.



Autonomous regulation, that is regulation by outside powers (i.e. a "separation of powers" or a "system of checks and balances") is the only solution to either system's inherent evil: greed. That's all. Regulation by those whose interest is seeing everyone share equally in the profits and debts of the economy of a nation is the only way that everyone is going to gain equality under any government system. In a capitalistic system, government must regulate business. In a communistic system, business must regulate government. Beneath all of that in both systems must be the voices of everyone else. The average person must give power to the regulator to regulate those who hold wealth.

American conservatives will never understand this because they remain stuck in a Cold War mentality. They will never see that not only are the abuses of each system the same, but in all but name alone, each system is identical down to their smallest flaws. Blame cannot fall on them alone however as American liberals/progressives have remained stuck in that Cold War mentality too. They don't see that they actually hold the same views in this respect as conservatives, but with, again, different names.

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* On the graph above, all rights are reserved. Fearless, 2009.

http://unwilling-dystopia.blogspot.com/2009/03/what-right-wing-politicians-will-never.html
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. The US Government Was Created and Designed to Build and Sustain a Middle Class
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 01:05 PM by Demeter
That's the equality they were talking about.

And the battle over the nature of the new government was hard fought, with those of greater wealth constantly trying to build in protection and rewards for themselves because of their wealth, starting with slavery and land and working its way into every facet of life.

It got so bad that the US was on the verge of outright socialism-communism revolution in the wake of the Great Crash and Depression. FDR gained the enmity of his own class, the amazingly wealthy, by rewriting most of the government to re-establish a middle class. And then Reagan came along to undo all that FDR had accomplished. And Dubya returned us to 1929.

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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yup.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. The uber-rich overlords only stay wealthy with the working class who join
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 01:17 PM by valerief
their military. Without the transfer of people from working class to the elites' military, the elites would have no power. Property laws? Phffft!
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I was speaking about feudal lords btw.
And of them I AM correct.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. In a way he is correct - WE SHOULD LET THE ECONOMY 'REGULATE" ITSELF - LET THEM GO BANKRUPT!!!
No more GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION by GIVING THEM OUR MONEY!!!

LET THESE FAILURES FAIL!!!

The problem it, we are saving the wrong people!!!

All these TRILLIONS of dollars should have been spent on SUPPORTING THE AVERAGE JOE while the massive bankruptcies work their way thru the system!!!



Unemployment Fund
Health CARE - not "insurance" - let the Insuranc Companies FAIL and DISSAPPEAR altogether!!!
Etc.


THIS and ONLY this is what the government should be spending OUR money on!!!
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. EXACTLY WRONG!
You must see that people depend on these companies! If they fail, the corporate heads will not suffer. They have their bonuses already. The only people that will suffer will be the poor and middle class who don't have such comforts! I'm sorry, but you completely missed my point.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. No - you just don't get it!!!
We are propping up a dead corpse "weekend at bernie's" like...

Your inaction will only postpone the inevitable.

We should NOT be REWARDING FAILURE!!!

We should be spending our TRILLIONS on supporting everyone else WHILE THE BANKRUPTCIES OF THESE FAILED COMPANIES WORK THRU THE SYSTEM...

You've completely missed the point...

If we allow these companies to DIE, MAINLY these assholes who caused this mess will be OUT IN THE STREET no longer receiving ANY salaries, let alone any bonuses for FAILURE!!!

The poor will still be just that - poor, and the middle class wiil be on their way back to prosperity...

You couldn't be more wrong...
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. What we are doing is (as usual) a half assed attempt...
At getting things right. What should be happening is that the gov't should be buying majority stakes in these companies, firing upper management, reforming the company and gradually giving it back to its workers at the rate of stock dividends. That's what should be going on. All this bull shit about letting them fail doesn't do anything. It's a gut reaction by people who feel hurt or betrayed. The structure of the companies is important because it provides jobs to people who will suffer a great deal more otherwise. Why should the gov't start from scratch, spending more money in both the short and long run creating a new business for these displaced workers instead of just taking over, and doing exactly what I said. Net profit / debt to the gov'v is zero over time and everyone who deserves their jobs gets to keep them.

That's what SHOULD be going on.
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teknomanzer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Show me the money!
You have to consider the idea that American capitalism, and its financial system, is like a game of musical chairs. In this game when the music stops the one left holding the funny worthless paper is the loser. Keep in mind though that someone in this game is left holding all the cash and real assets.

The money didn't just vanish into thin air - someone out there has it.

There is no free market system because someone will always try to game the market, and if there are no laws that say otherwise (regulations) then they get to keep the spoils. Even if the economy fails. As far as the winners of that game are concerned even economic failure works in their favor - everything just got much less expensive.

The game doesn't just affect the players - it affects anyone who has any interest whatsoever in the assets being passed around when the opening bell goes off.
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Right.
And at this point the American public is stuck with the bill. The problem is that we cannot possibly find all of the money that has disappeared. It's not legal, and besides it won't happen. Realistically, the powers that be would be against that. In their minds there's nothing to stop us from taking their money next (whether wrong or right). Over time however there is a solution. It involves buying out the companies that we have problems with. Accessing their books and investigating criminal activity by upper management. Undoutably there will be something found and that should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Then, the company should be restructured so that these things (bad lending etc.) won't occur again. New management should be put in place with heavy restrictions on "bonuses" or "severance packages" (say a cap at $X). Then as the company begins to turn a profit it should be sold back to its workers cent for cent on all profit it turns under government control.
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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. A fascinating read.
There has been so much miseducation exacted upon the people that they cannot recognize when they vote against their own interests. The point lead by Obama in the last election is evidence of this. If the average citizenry knew how the levers are being pulled, the GOP would have never received so much support. It remains to be seen if Democrats are in it to help the middle class. While I am confident that President Obama genuinely cares, I am not so sure about some of our other representatives.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. miseducation lead by a talk radio monopoly- 1000 stations for deregulation
and dumbing down and distortion.

we wouldn't be in this mess, and the GOP would never get much out of the 20% range, if we still had a fairness doctrine-- but the GOP has had 20 years of coordinated UNCONTESTED repetition to a crowd the size of the one that voted for obama.

and it is invisible to liberals who can't stand to listen to the blowhards.
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