Germany Has Sights on Several Alleged Nazi War Criminals

[IndianaGreen]

b]04/14/2009

Prosecutors Not Just Targeting Demjanjuk

Germany Has Sights on Several Alleged Nazi War Criminals
By SPIEGEL Staff

John Demjanjuk is not an isolated case. German investigators have set their sights on other presumed Nazi war criminals, raising the question of how the law should deal with the aged accessories of the Holocaust.

When he had completed the job, SS Colonel Karl Jäger, filled with pride, wrote in his report to his superiors: "Today, I am proud to report that the objective of solving the Jewish problem for Lithuania has been achieved by Task Force 3. There are no longer any Jews in Lithuania ..."

It was Dec. 1, 1941, and German troops had occupied Lithuania, which was part of the Soviet Union, since the summer. According to Colonel Jäger's meticulous account, his subordinates had killed exactly 47,326 men, 55,556 women and 34,464 children.

But Jäger did not claim all the credit for himself and the 120 men he commanded. He was only able to achieve his goal, the ardent Hitler supporter wrote, because one of his subordinates had managed to "secure the cooperation of the Lithuanian partisans."

The "partisans" Jäger referred to were anti-communist militia units that had once fought against the Soviet occupation and had now become the willing helpers of their new, German masters. One such incident of voluntary collaboration took place on August 15 and 16, 1941, in Rokiskis, a town in northeastern Lithuania, where 80 Lithuanians rounded up Jews, brought them to an execution site and helped lock up the victims. Twenty of the Lithuanian volunteers joined Jäger's men in shooting them dead.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,618966,00.html

[emilyg]

1. I would like to end

Demjanjuk's life with my own hands.

[jwirr]

2. As a German-American I want to see all of them punished for what

they did regardless what age they are. Justice does not have an expiration date.

[happyslug]

3. I liked the Third to the last and last paragraphs:

In the first year <1968> after the new clause came into effect, proceedings against at least 300 defendants were dropped. These defendants included, for example, planners who had worked at the Reich Main Security Office (RSHA), the agency that essentially organized the murder of Jews. A major case against RSHA senior officials failed, and most of their crimes suddenly came under the statute of limitations....

In this sense, it seems almost coincidental that the criminal prosecution of Nazi war criminals is now entering its final round with cases against the smallest links in the chain, namely people like Demenjuk. "In fact, it's embarrassing," says Rüter.

This is the chief problems when dealing with people like Demenjuk, he was NEVER in a position to really say NO. Israel went after him on the grounds he was "Ivan the Terrible" but the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that Ivan had died in 1944 and the camp survivors who ID Demenjuk as Ivan the Terrible (Ivan the Terrible did commit acts of violence against the Jews in the Camps) did so as part of the well known psychological phenomena of survivors, all tend to support each other in anything afterward, so when one said Demenjuk was Ivan they all had to agree, even if they had made statements they saw Ivan the Terrible die in 1944 (These conflicts in testimony is what convinced the Israeli Court that Demenjuk had been nothing more then a Perimeter Guard and dismissed the case against him). Please note the Israeli Supreme Court did say Demenjuk HAD been a Guard and that would have been technically guilty BUT the Israeli Court wanted to convict those in Charge and those that added to the misery of the camps NOT fellow victims who just happen to be given the opportunity to be a guard (This reflected the fact that many of the survivors of the Camps had been police within the camps, also working for the SS against their fellow Jews, and such Jewish Police Officers were as much victims as the Jews they were policing).

People forget the camps were efficiently run, the Ukrainian Guards only provided the perimeter Guard (with order to shoot anyone who came near the wire let alone try to escape), the actual working of the camps were lead by SS officers assisted by trustees (i.e. Jews and other people sent to the camp that the Officers in charge thought could help them exterminate people sent to the camp). Even the Furnaces were run by such trustees. Many, if not most, such trustees were latter shot by the Nazis as the camps were abandoned, but many survived till liberation.

Is what Demenjuk did worse then want these trustees did? Neither group made an extra effort against the Jews, but did assist the SS in exterminating almost anyone who arrived in the Camp. The Israeli Court would have been comfortable sentencing Ivan the Terrible (Who did extra punishment and harassment against the people in the camp he was in) but not a Guard who just stood and obeyed orders (Like the Jewish Trustees). The court would have liked to go after another Eichmann, but many such people were protected while they were still alive, and being in their 30s and 40s by the time WWII started were dead by 1990.

More on Eichmann:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

Organization of Treblinka, typical of how the Death Camps were formed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp

The camp was operated by 20–25 SS overseers (Germans and Austrians) and 80–120 guards. The historic record shows that many Treblinka camp guards were of varied ethnic groups and nationalities not only Germans (Volksdeutscher), but also a number of Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Moldovans, Latvians, representatives of Soviet Central Asia, including a number of collaborating Soviet prisoners of war (POWs). Among them in Treblinka served former Red Army soldiers Ivan Marchenko and Nikolay Shaleyev.

The majority of the camp work was performed on a forced basis by 700–800 Jewish prisoners, organized into specialized squads...

More on the camp:
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/treblinka.html

1993 TIMES article on Demenjuk pointing out the Evidence that Ivan the Terrible was an Ivan Marchenko NOT Demenjuk.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978969,00.html

Testimony about Marchenko and what he did in the Camps:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/Trawniki/trawnikiInterrogations.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goncharov-pyotr/goncharov-001.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=DSHN-uaDnhQC&pg=PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=Ivan+Marchenko&source=bl&ots=jxSKI3xwJR&sig=sYXusoLt7icuXCRgHVWJ135hk9o&hl=en&ei=erHmSerdHZryMqG9jeoF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

The problem with Demenjuk is should we punish him MORE then the people who forced him to do what he did? Remember MOST of the officers that ran the camps were given, if tried at all, light sentences. Now that those leaders are gone, all that are left were the teenagers and twenty year olds who were at the bottom of the system, barely higher then the people in the camps (Especially the ex-Soviet POWs). I hate to say it, but what would you have done given his choice at that time? Stay in an under supplied, inadequate housing of a German POW camp for Soviet Soldiers (The camps for Soviet Soldiers were MUCH worse then for western soldiers, based again on the Nazi's hatred of Slavs and Communists, while viewing people from Western Europe and the US as almost Equals to the Germans of Germany) or take up the option of clothing, heated barracks and adequate food (and some money, but not much) and join the German Army or the SS (The German Army by the end of the war had at least one Russian assigned to every Infantry SQUAD, to take care of the Squad's mule which carried the Squad's equipment, which in the US Army was shipped by Truck assigned to the Infantry Company)? Starve or become a prison guard, tough choice (The Survivor rates of both German and Soviet POWs in WWII are low, less then 10%, it was a bloodbath between those two groups).

My point Demenjuk had two bad choices, he picked the one he thought would give him a better chance of surviving, should we punish him for making that choice? That is the question, and right now the Germans want to try him to show that Modern Germany is NOT racist and will not tolerate racism. That WAS not the first order of Germany when many of the people who issued ORDERS and MADE REAL CHOICES to help or not help kill the Jews were still alive, but now when the people in Charge AND who relied orders and enforces those below them to carried out those orders and now dead, we go after the people who were ORDERED to commit the crime or face execution themselves for NOT obeying the order? Demenjuk and other like him are NOT officers, they were not even NCOs, they are the lowest ranking people in the system and as such had the least ability to stop what was occurring.

Now, even the Israeli Supreme Court would have Executed Demenjuk had he been Ivan the Terrible, for Ivan the Terrible not only obeyed orders HE went out of his way to kill and make the life of the people in the Camps Miserable. That is NOT the case with Demenjuk, all the evidence shows is he was a camp guard. That is it, no reports of him even firing his rifle (Unlike the one suspected war criminal who is reported to have fired four rounds in an incident that lead to at least one Death and other wounded). Should we just leave him alone in peace or should be have to spent his last years in Jail? Not quite the choice Demenjuk faced in 1942 but still a choice between which is the least evil.

[Chef Eric]

4. Why are you posting this kind of trash on DU?

Seriously, is this what you believe? That we shouldn't punish the old Nazi, because he was just following orders? If that's what you think, perhaps you should be posting on one of the far-right political forums.

[RedstDem]

5. Probably Because Liberals Are Inherently Compassionate

n/t

[Chef Eric]

6. Former guards at death camps do not deserve compassion.

At least, they don't deserve my compassion. But apparently, they deserve yours.

By the way, if any members of the Bush/Cheney torture-enablers are ever prosecuted, make sure you show some of that wonderful compassion of yours for them too! Just don't expect me to join you.

[happyslug]

8. Demenjuk is more like the MPs at the prison in Iraq, NOT the people doing the Torture

Now, Ivan the Terrible is like the MPs who went out of their way to humiliated the prisoners, and in many ways that is why Israel went after Demenjuk when he was thought to be Ivan the Terrible. Demenjuk is like the MP in that Prison who just stood Guard and did NOT participate in the degrading acts done to the prisoners.

The people in Charge were all older people with Political connections of some sort (Including Political connections with other Officers). Like many ex-SS Officers who ran the camps, they have NEVER be prosecuted (and may never be). After 50 years, when Bush and the rest of his clique are dead, do we go after the Guards of those prisons for having been involved, by being guards, while torture and other illegal acts were being done to the prisoners? I hope the answer is NO for the same reason Demenjuk should be set free, they ability to refuse to be a guard at the camp ended the day they were assigned to that Prison. If any Guard in the prisons in Iraq had said NO, they would have faced Court Martial for refusing to obey a lawful order. The Burden would have been on the Guard that the Order was unlawful, and as long as the only order was to be a Guard, how is such an order, by itself illegal? With modern Technology those photos came out but while being a guard there was NOT much the Guards could do to prevent the abuse (preventing such abuse was up to the people in charge of the prisons, and the people in charge did NOT want the abuse to stop).

I have no problem going after the people who set up the Prisons in Iraq (and elsewhere) and those people to mistreated prisoners, I just draw the line at those people ORDERED to be there and obeyed those orders and did nothing more. That is the same test I applied to Demenjuk, for all the evidence I have read points out that all he had been was a Guard.

[happyslug]

7. So if a person IS FORCED to doing something bad, he MUST be punished as if he ORDERED it?

No one, not even the Israeli Supreme Court found that Demenjuk had any real choice in the matter. Your statement would treat someone like Eichmann just like a five year old child that happened to slap a Jew on his way to the camp the same. Did the five year old have a choice? Could the Five year old tell his Parents he did NOT want to slap the Jew? The Answer is NO, at age five you do NOT have that ability. NO ONE has come forward and pointed out any act of hostility to anyone by Demenjuk, all that has been shown is he was at the Death Camp and was part of the machine of that camp. No one has pointed out any single act Demenjuk did to anyone. No one has shown he was in charge of any prisoners who he mistreated. No one has pointed out any effort by Demenjuk to make the people in the Camp worse. No one has pointed out any act that Demenjuk did that furthered the goals of the Camps (i.e. he did NOT round up any Jews on his own).

The opposite is also true, Demenjuk made no effort to help the people in the Death Camps he patrolled. Could the camps have survived and operated without him? Yes, others would have played his role, but he did no overt act that kept the camps working.

The Key to Justice is to be FAIR to everyone. Demenjuk, while NOT as much of a victim as the people killed in the Camps, was still a victim of the Nazi Machine. He had NO discretion in his job as a Guard. He was under the Command of an SS Officer who could have him killed if he did NOT obeyed the SS Officers orders (The SS Officer had the right to a Court Martial Demenjuk as a non-German Guard had NO such right). The First real chance he had to change his position he apparently took (He seem to have deserted the SS as the camps round down in late 1944, as the Soviet Army entered Poland). As an Soviet Citizen who took up arms for the Germans, he would have been shot for that crime alone (NOT what happened in the Camps) thus he decided to go West rather then East. Again a decision that is held against today, but not at that time, and NOT applied to the Germans who had command over him.

Sooner or later you have to draw a line, do we want to be like King Charles II, who upon his "Restoration" to the Throne, had Oliver Cromwell Drawn and Quartered (Almost three years after Cromwell's death) and tracked down the last three Judges of the Court that had Sentenced his father to be executed? (The judges hide out in New England tell they died of old age). Or do we do what Charles II did to the Followers of Cromwell, the lead regiment became the his House Guards, and the rest he paid off (Even the troops who stood around and make sure nothing but the execution took place when Charles I was executed). In the case of Charles II, his hold on the throne was not to secure, so he had to walk carefully (as many Germans did after WWII when it came to people who helped with the collecting and killing of the Jews). Now that the most (if not all) of the people who had any POWER to reduce the scale of the Holocaust are dead we go after the cogs in the Machine? We are NOT even going after the Engineers who operated the trains that took the Jews to the Camps. We are even BELOW that level.

My point is if you can NOT go after the movers WHO created the Holocaust, why go after people who could do little if anything to stop the Holocaust. You have to draw the line somewhere and what the Israeli Supreme Court did sounds more and more like the correct cut off, leaving people who did NOTHING but their jobs alone, while going after those people who set up the camps, arranged for the Jews to be gathered up and shipped to the Camps, and controlled the Camps. The Sole Exception is for those low ranking people who went out of their way to make the Camps true hell holes (Thus the Israelis wanted Ivan the Terrible, who went out of his way to harm people in the camps. but not Camp Guards who just did their job).

Remember all the Germans are going after Demenjuk for is the same "Crime" even the Israeli Supreme Court held to be his crime, of being a Guard of a Death Camp. The Israeli Supreme Court ruled Demenjuk had been a Camp Guard, but then decided that, by itself, deserved no punishment and set Demenjuk back to the US (And Israel made an effort to get him back into the US, The US at First refused to permit him back, but then did take him back under Israeli pressure, Israel did NOT want to send him to the Ukraine and did NOT want to keep him, thus Israeli insisted the US take him back, that is how Demenjuk returned to the US).

Thus my point, what punishment do you want to do a a person whose only crime was being a Perimeter Guard at a Death Camp? He did NOT participate in the Killings, he did not participate in shipping the victims to the Camps, he did NOT participate in gather the valuables of the Victims (al functions performed by Jews under even less discretion then Demenjuk had) all Demenjuk did was patrol the outside perimeter of the Camp. What should be his punishment? The Israeli Supreme Court said none was sufficient and I can NOT find a valid objection to that position.