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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:42 AM
Original message
If it’s war you want, vote Kerry
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec270.html

Kerry has committed himself to ‘a stronger, more comprehensive strategy for winning the war on terror than the Bush administration has ever envisioned’ (my italics throughout). Those Americans who are uncomfortable with George Bush’s Patriot Act, and the Department of Homeland Security, should blanch at John Kerry’s proposals to enlist the National Guard in Homeland Security and to ‘break down the old barriers between national intelligence and local law enforcement’. Such barriers are precisely what distinguish free societies from dictatorships. Kerry seems even more obsessed than Bush with weapons of mass destruction, as he is constantly harping on about the danger of WMD being delivered through American ports.

Kerry voted for the war on Iraq and continues to support it wholeheartedly. He said last December that those who continue to oppose the war ‘don’t have the judgment to be president — or the credibility to be elected president’. Kerry does not even say that Bush has jeopardised US security by attacking Iraq instead of facing down the al-Qa’eda threat: he is not Richard Clarke. Instead, Kerry says, ‘No one can doubt that we are safer — and Iraq is better — because Saddam Hussein is now behind bars.’ On 17 December last year, Kerry lent credence to the loony theory that Iraq was the author of the 9/11 attacks, something George Bush has done at least twice. Yet in February, Kerry attacked Bush for planning to hand back power to the Iraqis too quickly — what he called ‘a cut and run strategy’ — even though Bush intends the US embassy in Iraq to be the biggest American embassy in the world, and even though some 110,000 US troops are to remain stationed there indefinitely.

Above all, John Kerry is, like Bush, committed to the world military supremacy of the USA. ‘We must never retreat from having the strongest military in the world,’ says the possible future president. Kerry claims that George Bush has actually ‘weakened’ the military, and so he has promised 40,000 more active-duty army troops. Indeed, Kerry, who drum-beats his ‘readiness to order direct military action’ whenever necessary, has gone so far as to imply that friendly countries might need to be attacked in the war on terror. In February he said, ‘We can’t wipe out terrorist cells in places like Sweden, Canada, Spain, the Philippines or Italy just by dropping in Green Berets.’


...more...

I don't know about you, but reading these articles makes me wonder
what the real deal is behind the scenes. While I can understand the
ABB mentality, I think we need to make sure that when we do (can)
get rid of Bush that we replace him with a complete OPPOSITE. Kerry
is not shrub's opposite...
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. If you believe the lies in this article, vote Nader
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. that's a Kerry QUOTE up there at the top...
...so if it's a lie it's a Kerry lie. Kerry has not been forthcoming about the real nature of the WOT, the occupation of Iraq, or the trampling of constitutional protections in America. Why should we believe that he's planning to do any differently than he says?

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. "stronger and more comprehensive" approach to terror is a GOOD thing.
What kind of moron wants terror to go UNADDRESSED?

Kerry wants to deal with terror as a law enforcement issue, using special military forces only at the point of head to head actions against the terrorists.

Kerry wants the terror war targeted at the terrorists, NOT at innocent civilians of countries occupied by terrorists. Why on earth would you criticize that?

Or.....have you never read Kerry's entire plan and are only assuming these few words validate your OWN assumptions based on your own bias against Kerry?

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. the WOT is a sham, a political marketing campaign much like...
...the WOD, the war on poverty, and the war on communism in the western hemisphere. It's a bogey man designed to keep you afraid. Americans love their wars, so every political objective has to be framed not only in terms of war metaphors, but also with the reality of innocent people dying so that American politicians can win their next popularity contest. I'm sick of it. Kerry is a consummate player of the war card.

What kind of moron wants terror to go UNADDRESSED?

What kind of fool wants unlimited warfare, without winnable objectives? What kind of idiot believes that a "war" can be won against a tactic that is itself inspired by powerlessness, frustration, and hatred for the Amerikan foreign policy boot heel? Terrorism is the Hydra of the twenty-first century. It cannot be stopped by military adventures or by law enforcement. That just breeds more terrorists.

So maybe I'm a moron, but at least I can see that Kerry is using the WOT just as despicably as dumbya is.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Because Kerry.....
will keep troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.... He has NOT stated
ANYWHERE that he would be removing the troops from the ME...quite
the contrary. So, HOW does this affect the so-called "war on terror"?

Anyways...the WOT IS a friggin PNAC scam...so, we place a dem that
continues the PNAC agenda? :shrug: THINK about that.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. A good example of false and deceptive reasoning


I said:
"if you believe the lies in this article"


and you responded as if I had said:
"everything in this article is a lie"



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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. misdirection...
...since you left the clear impression that you contend the article is generally untrue. If that's not the case, which "lies" were you referring to? I referred only to Kerry's statements, which I believe to be true, but wrong.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Yes the article is generally untrue
One blatant lie is the statement that Kerry "continues to support it (the Iraq war) wholeheartedly"

Now if that were a DUer saying that, I'd have to use the circumlocution that it is a misleading and deceptive characterization, but since it is in the original source material, I can be more blunt (and more accurate) and call it a lie.

Does Kerry support our troops successfully achieving their missions? Yes. Does that mean he supports the policy that drives those missions? No.


It is just a lie and misrepresentation of Kerry's views. The article is generally untrue in that it gives the impression that Kerry and Bush's foreign policy are basically the same - worse - it has as it's central premise: "Warmongering will be worse under Kerry than under Bush, and real peaceniks should therefore vote for Dubya."

It's not true. What was Kerry saying - even before the war when most people believed Saddam had at least some WMDs. Listen to Kerry's Georgetown speech:


First, destroying al Qaeda and other anti-American terror groups must remain our top priority. While the Administration has largely prosecuted this war with vigor, it also has made costly mistakes. The biggest, in my view, was their reluctance to translate their robust rhetoric into American military engagement in Afghanistan. They relied too much on local warlords to carry the fight against our enemies and this permitted many al Qaeda members, and according to evidence, including Osama bin Laden himself, to slip through our fingers. Now the Administration must redouble its efforts to track them down. And we need to pressure Pakistan to get control of its territories along the Afghanistan border, which have become a haven for terrorists.

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses.

He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction.

That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war.

As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

And I say to the United Nations, show respect for your own mandates. Do not find refuge in excuses and equivocation. Stand up for the rule of law, not just in words but in deeds. Not just in theory but in reality. Stand up for our common goal: either bringing about Iraq's peaceful disarmament or the decisive military victory of a multilateral coalition.

Third, as we continue our focus on the greater Middle East, the U.S. must look beyond stability alone as the linchpin of our relationships. We must place increased focus on the development of democratic values and human rights as the keys to long-term security. If we learned anything from our failure in Vietnam it is that regimes removed from the people cannot permanently endure. They must reform or they will finally crumble, despite the efforts of the United States. We must side with and strengthen the aspirations of those seeking positive change. America needs to be on the side of the people, not the regimes that keep them down.
In the 1950s, as the sun was setting on European colonialism, a young Senator named John Kennedy went to the Senate floor and urged the Eisenhower Administration not to back France against a rebellious Algeria. He recognized that the United States could only win the Cold War by staying true to our values, by championing the independence of those aspiring to be free.

What's at issue today is not U.S. support for colonial powers out of touch with history, but for autocratic regimes out of touch with their own people.

We as Americans must be agents of hope as well as enemies of terrorism. We must help bring modernity to the greater Middle East. We must make significant investments in the education and human infrastructure in developing countries. The globalization of the last decade taught us that simple measures like buying books and family planning can expose, rebut, isolate and defeat the apostles of hate so that children are no longer brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers and terrorists are deprived the ideological breeding grounds. I believe we must reform and increase our global aid to strengthen our focus on the missions of education and health --of freedom for women -- and economic development for all.

The U.S. should take a page from our Cold War playbook. No one expected communism to fall as suddenly as it did. But that didn't prevent us from expanding society-to-society aid to support human rights groups, independent media and labor unions and other groups dedicated to building a democratic culture from the ground up. Democracy won't come to the greater Middle East overnight, but the U.S. should start by supporting the region's democrats in their struggles against repressive regimes or by working with those which take genuine steps towards change.

We must embark on a major initiative of public diplomacy to bridge the divide between Islam and the rest of the world. We must make avoidance of the clash of civilizations the work of our generation: Engaging in a new effort to bring to the table a new face of the Arab world -- Muslim clerics, mullahs, imams and secular leaders -- demonstrating for the entire world a peaceful religion which can play an enormous role in isolating and rebutting those practitioners who would pervert Islam's true message.

Fourth, The Middle East isn't on the Bush Administration's trade agenda. We need to put it there.
The United States and its transatlantic partners should launch a high-profile Middle East trade initiative designed to stop the economic regression in the Middle East and spark investment, trade and growth in the region. It should aim at dismantling trade barriers that are among the highest in the world, encouraging participation in world trade policy and ending the deep economic isolation of many of the region's countries.

I propose the following policy goals:
We should build on the success of Clinton Administration's Jordan Free Trade Agreement. Since the United States reduced tariffs on goods made in "qualifying industrial zones," Jordan's exports to the US jumped from $16 to $400 million, creating about 40,000 jobs. Let's provide similar incentives to other countries that agree to join the WTO, stop boycotting Israel and supporting Palestinian violence against Israel, and open up their economies.

We should also create a general duty-free program for the region, just as we've done in the Caribbean Basin Initiative and the Andean Trade Preference Act. Again, we should set some conditions: full cooperation in the war on terror, anti-corruption measures, non-compliance with the Israel boycott, respect for core labor standards and progress toward human rights.

Let's be clear: Our goal is not to impose some western free market ideology on the greater Middle East. It's to open up a region that is now closed to opportunity, an outpost of economic exclusion and stagnation in a fast-globalizing world.

These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people? But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side.

We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. We should strengthen the IMF's ability to prevent financial panics from turning into full-scale economic meltdowns such as we've seen in Argentina. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things.

Fifth, and finally, we must have a new vision and a renewed engagement to reinvigorate the Mideast peace process. This Administration made a grave error when it disregarded almost seventy years of American friendship and leadership in the Middle East and the efforts of every President of the last 30 years. A great nation like ours should not be dragged kicking and resisting - should not have to be pressured to the task of making peace. A great nation like ours should be leading the effort to make peace or we risk encouraging through our inaction the worst instincts of an already troubled region.

Israel is our ally, the only true democracy in this troubled region, and we know that Israel as a partner is fundamental to our security. From Truman through Clinton, America has always been committed to Israel's independence and survival - we will never waver.

Israel's security will be best assured over the long term if real and lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East. I know from my own trips to Israel that the majority of the Israeli people understand and expect that one day there will be a Palestinian state. Their frustration is that they do not see a committed partner in peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians must stop the violence - this is the fundamental building block of the peace process. The Palestinian leadership must be reformed, not only for the future of the Palestinian people but also for the sake of peace. I believe Israel would respond to this new partner after all, Israel has already indicated its willingness to freeze settlements and to move toward the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of a comprehensive peace process.

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process. American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area but also critical to the success of our own efforts in the war against terrorism. When I visited the region last year, in meetings with King Abdullah of Jordan, President Mubarak of Egypt, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, it became clear that September 11th had changed the imperatives of these countries. The Bush Administration has missed an opportunity to enlist much greater support in the peace process and needs to focus on this urgent priority- now.

The transformation of the Middle East which can come from these efforts will determine much of our future - but we must also look to the challenges on the rest of the planet. We must build a new and more effective role for the United States in the rest of this complex world.

The central challenge for the United States is to undertake and lead the most global, comprehensive effort in history to deal with proliferation generally and nuclear weapons lost or loose in a dangerous world specifically. It is no secret that there are those lurking in the shadows eager to capitalize on a deadly market for nuclear materials held in insecure facilities around the world.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I don't know what to say....
If you can't see the similarities between the positions Kerry expresses in that speech and dumbya's rationale for invading and occupying Iraq, fighting a perpetual and ultimately doomed WOT, blaming the Palestinians for Likkud fascism and refusing to put real pressure on Israel to change its apartheid policies, and so on, then I think we're simply living in two different, and largely incompatible worlds. That speech scares the hell out of me.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. That's because if you were to say anything specific, it could be debated

But if instead you just make a vague mischaracterization, no matter how false, it can't be effectively refuted.

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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Thanks for posting that speech; 2 quotes make the case:
"And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

And I say to the United Nations, show respect for your own mandates. Do not find refuge in excuses and equivocation. Stand up for the rule of law, not just in words but in deeds. Not just in theory but in reality. Stand up for our common goal: either bringing about Iraq's
peaceful disarmament or the decisive military victory of a multilateral coalition."

A president Kerry would have given the inspectors the chance to finish their job, which would have established no WMD and prevented the war.

We must embark on a major initiative of public diplomacy to bridge the divide between Islam and the rest of the world. We must make avoidance of the clash of civilizations the work of our generation: Engaging in a new effort to bring to the table a new face of the Arab world -- Muslim clerics, mullahs, imams and secular leaders -- demonstrating for the entire world a peaceful religion which can play an enormous role in isolating and rebutting those practitioners who would pervert Islam's true message.

The clash of civilizations is exactly what Bush and his neoconservatives have brought upon us. Anyone who reads Kerry's speech and fails to see the differences between Kerry and Bush is blinded by the orthodoxy of their views and the spin being applied to Kerry.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. He's not Shrub, either
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. Your post makes no sense whatsoever....
but then again, its a classical retort to the Kerry question....
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. The opposite of Shrub is Kucinich
On every single issue. And he's got the voting record to prove it.

http://www.wgoeshome.com
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I agree with that....
Kucinich would have been the complete polar opposite of shurb
and I would have voted for him without a second thought. Too bad the
decision has been made for us... :eyes:
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Amerpie Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. Military Questions
1. Will the 40,000 additional troops being deployed result in an increase in the number of active duty troops currently allowed by congress?

2. If the current active duty troop ceiling isn't raised, then will Kerry's 40K deployment mean a continued overuse of National Guard and Reserve troops?

3. How many US troops is Kerry planning to leave deployed in Iraq?

4. Does Kerry plan to maintain the current operational tempo (time deployed) for active duty military troops, understanding that it is triple what it was in 1992?
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. All good questions....
unfortunately, Kerry hasn't said squat about how he will be doing all
this...
Too bad really.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. If you want a complete opposite, then work for Kucinich
I like Kucinich, but I think the voters have spoken. If he could not get traction within the Dem party, there's no way he could win with independents and Republicans.

You can either vote for Kerry or you can vote for Bush or you can vote for Nader which is really a vote for Bush.


Ask yourself: As the world's only super power,

Was the U.S. right to get involved in Kosovo?

Should the U.S. have gotten involved in Rwanda?

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Classic DISINFO essay spun to attract the gullible and aggrieved.
Same old GOP election year tactic they have used for decades.

Kerry is to the left of Gore and you'd have to be a complete moron to think there is not much difference between Bush and Gore.
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Echo These are Republicans trying to attract idiots that think they are
more sophiscated voters, Defeatist elitist. Pies in all their faces -Bull shit.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Me mongo...me go pull lever in Nov....get an ABB....
:eyes:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. calling something a lie without offering evidence is the...
Edited on Sun Apr-11-04 11:01 AM by mike_c
...oldest lie there is. Kerry's own statements are eviscerating his support from the left. If you think he means something other than he's saying, please offer some evidence, not just platitudes.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Exactly.
Most posters are showing completely "blind loyalty" to somebody
that hasn't provided any real information as to how he will be doing
what he states.
Then, they start immediately calling people that QUESTION "repukes"
and other ilk. I'm sick and tired of this because I fear that IF Kerry
wins, we'll have people on the left start behaving like the freepers
on the right: Kerry is above reproach....just like shrub is above
reproach for the righties.

STOP THAT! :mad:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Nope. I said they take some points and SPIN it to make
those who don't KNOW the full policies of Kerry (and his lifetime positions) doubt the significance of the many areas that he and Bush are VASTLY different.

Gullibility and ignorance breed the same answer every time - "There's not much difference"
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Only in America could the most famous anti-War politician of our
generation be considered a warmonger by "the Left". It's rather humorous to see these "radicals" working so hard to assure George Bush's re-election.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. only in American politics would "the most famous anti-war"...
...politician in the Senate call for increasing our committment to perpetual war. Please see my sig line below.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Please site his call for perpetual war.
Or retract.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Al Gore was the most famous environmental candidate of this generation and
still they voter for Nadir.
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NewHampshireDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
11. Lew Rockwell is NOT A REPUBLICAN!
Edited on Sun Apr-11-04 11:13 AM by NewHampshireDem
He is a Libertarian, and as such has been critical of the * administration--along with just about everyone at Cato, too.

Remember, Libertarians are right on economic issues, left on social issues, and somewhere in between on military issues. The last thing a Libertarian would want would be a president who stomps all over the Bill or Rights in the name of the "War on Terror," no matter which party the Pres. belongs to. They fear a police state more than most Liberals do.

Check out this column he wrote:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/gregory2.html

Oops ... I see he himself didn't write it, but it is on his site.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. But remember....Libertarians "are bad" according to DUers....
:eyes:
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
24. Contrary to popular opinion ...
There actually are such things as terrorists. They may not "hate us for our freedoms" but many of them are hell-bent on destroying the USA.

Look, you don't need to tell me how it's decades of bad US policy that got us into this mess, or how Team Bush has been working the Terrorism card as the most outrageous Wildcard in decades, but there really are threats that have to be "met", whether they are barstool-patriot Christian Identity Militiamen or martyrs for al-Qaeda, Wahabiism, or the Talibs.

The "War On Terror" is a sham and an imposture, but there is terrorism, and it's become much more powerful (yes, thanks to Team Bush in large part), and we'd better stay aware of what's going on with the maniac killers in this world.

We -- the people of the USA, the West, and the World in general -- have a lot of work to do. Much of it involves establishing a world community based on justice and cooperation, but we also need the guys around who will intercept the ideological maniacs before they can kill innocent people.

Kerry is handling this as a political issue with as much aplomb as he can -- he is trying to ruffle as few feathers as possible, because once he gets into office, reality will step in. Should he win the election, Kerry will have to clean up the largest mess in American history since the Civil War. For the radical-chic to blame him for any extention of the war after Inauguration Day will be as bogus as saying "Gore equals Bush".

Lew Rockwell nonwithstanding, we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow afternoon, let alone June 30 or next January. If and when Kerry has to deal with that reality, it's not going to be a matter of immediate military withdrawl and isolationism. Such a policy had already been pursued by Richard Nixon, and resulted in a series of bloodbaths in Indochina. This approach also contributed greatly to the loss of life in Rwanda and the aborted mission in Somalia.

While most radical leftists and "contrarian" libertatians blame both Somalia and Rwanda on Bill Clinton and Bill Clinton alone, a little reading from archived press feeds of the era will show something far different -- Clinton and the UN paralyzed by a surge of "Clean Hands" moralizing over Yugoslavia. And yet, who complained before the military involvement in the war in the Balkans? Who cried that Clinton and the United Nations were too callous to help the suffering people of the former Yugoslavia?

My own hope is that President Kerry would immediately involve the rest of the international community and stop the American-crusade-against-Islam aspect of this war. From there, especially if the Islamic world community is involved in Iraq's stability, and if peace can again be pursued in Israel and Palestine, things might proceed smoothly. But we're talking about a major international Bushpile, and John Kerry is not the cause of it, no matter what Alexander Cockburn or Lew Rockwell will have to say about it.

Bush needs to go -- but we also have to deal with this nest of hornets he whacked. A lot of people have already died because of Bush's own ideological mania. But Bush's errors do not exonorate the Bin Ladens of the world, and blaming John Kerry for ideological apostasy manages to ignore two major problems -- terrorist groups, and the Bush Doctrine. We ought not to let George Bush's policy disasters turn the Mideast into a real-estate development of the Devil.

--bkl
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. very well said, BKL...
...and while I agree with many of your statements, I do still feel that the day Kerry takes office he will become responsible for the future conduct of the WOT, the occupation of Iraq, and American foreign policy in general. Yes, he will inherit a disasterous legacy, but America MUST turn aside from the course that produced that legacy. Kerry will have the opportunity to search for ways to do that, but now he is suggesting that he will pursue that disasterous course more aggressively than Bush. I believe that will be a powderkeg of epic proportions.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. The Iraq War Resolution was a pathetic weasel
...document. It is a shame that Kerry signed it. I've heard his rationalization for signing it, which is that he trusted the bushit misrepresentations. He said he didn't let the executive off the hook for using means short of war. But I think he did. From his prior experiences with this group, he knew they couldn't be trusted. He knew better. But he is a politician playing a game to get elected.

I will probably vote for him anyway because his advisors seem to telling him and he seems to have an understanding about the path to disengage from Iraq. However, if I hear any more of his support for Aristides ouster or that of Chavez, I won't vote.

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Wiscmason Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. Stop the attempts to help Bush win again!
ENOUGH! John Kerry is an honroable man who can get us out of this mess that Chimpyboy got us in. He needs all of our help to take back the White House. Ill take the first 100 days of a John Kerry presidency over FOUR more years of idiotboy and his minions any day. So let's stop this quibilling and get Bush out of office as well as as many Repukes as possible.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. easy 'bro....
Be cool. There are many DU'ers who are so blinded by their hatred of Bush* that they can't see anything else. Can't say I blame them, but you can't really talk to them about larger concerns either. Don't let it get your goat. Keep fighting the good fight.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Trying to chill....
but it ticks me off...as you can well imagine.
I'll try to heed your advice. :toast:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Obviously, you must be cool with Bush
I can't understand why you guys spend so much time conjecturing on what Kerry "might" do when the Bush reality is so obvious. Perhaps, deep down inside, you admire our pResident?
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Obviously, you must be cool with spouting bullshit
Party loyalists endear yourselves to nobody by jumping desperately on any critic like this, especially a very decent fellow like kalian.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Sure you are.
Vote Nader, Kucinich, or the tooth fairy.....the results the same - Bush wins.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. you're SAYING don't vote for Kerry
which is a recipe for 4 more years of Bush. You apparently want to SCREW all of us.

If you REALLY think we have an opportunity to elect someone besides Bush or Kerry in 2004, then you are SERIOUSLY in need of a reality check.

FYI, I voted for Kucinich in the primary, and I consider IRV to be one of the most important things we need to improve our democracy. I would LOVE to vote for Nader 1st and Kerry 2nd.

You assume those who are working for Kerry's election are automatically blind to the imperialism of the Democratic party, and that for us Kerry can do no wrong. Well, you're wrong. As I stated in my previous post, Kerry is the lesser of evils.

I'm aware of his voting record and statements on foreign policy, yet I remain convinced that he is a much better choice than Bush & the neocons. There is no contest when it comes to domestic and environmental policies.

And you seem to be falling for some twisted interpretations of Kerry's statements. Here's a few snips from the snips you posted:

Kerry has committed himself to ‘a stronger, more comprehensive strategy for winning the war on terror than the Bush administration has ever envisioned’
Are you advocating LOSING the war on terror? A strong, comprehensive strategy would include re-connecting with the United Nations and scrapping the doctrine of preemption that provokes terrorism.

John Kerry’s proposals to ... ‘break down the old barriers between national intelligence and local law enforcement’.
If you recall, the biggest barrier to preventing 9/11 was the lack of information sharing between the FBI and CIA. It is possible, and necessary, to coordinate these efforts without infringing on Constitutional liberties.

Kerry seems even more obsessed than Bush with weapons of mass destruction, as he is constantly harping on about the danger of WMD being delivered through American ports.
As well he should be. One of the greatest dangers facing us is nuclear material (possibly stolen from the old Soviet Union) smuggled via shipping container.

Kerry, who drum-beats his ‘readiness to order direct military action’ whenever necessary, has gone so far as to imply that friendly countries might need to be attacked in the war on terror. In February he said, ‘We can’t wipe out terrorist cells in places like Sweden, Canada, Spain, the Philippines or Italy just by dropping in Green Berets.’
First, readiness is a responsibility that does not necessarily equate with unprovoked agression. Secondly, do you really believe Kerry would invade Sweden, Canada, etc.? If so, I remind you again of that REALITY CHECK. Kerry's statement demonstrates his understanding that military solutions do not apply to terrorist cells imbedded throughout the world, NOT his propensity to invade Western democracies.

Finally, kalian wrote:
While I can understand the ABB mentality, I think we need to make sure that when we do (can) get rid of Bush that we replace him with a complete OPPOSITE. Kerry is not shrub's opposite...
It makes ME wonder how an intelligent person could:
1) Buy into the notion that Kerry might invade Sweden;
2) Suggest we don't get rid of Bush except with someone who is a complete OPPOSITE.

Sorry to tell you this, but that would be a LONG wait. And in the meantime, Bush and subsequent RW administrations would continue to inflict destruction on the world, on the environment, and on our democracy.

No, Kerry isn't the answer to our prayers. But I'll take him over another 4 years of the Bush nightmare. I urge everyone to vote for Kerry and continue to advocate for a more just and peaceful United States of America.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
39.  You seem to have bought in to the Bushco philosophy that is is all about
the war. Forget the economy. Forget a woman's right to choose her own healthcare options, forget everything except the war. The polls I jst saw on MTP show that, despite *'s negatives and low poll numbers on everything else, that a majority of Americans think he is effective in Iraq.

Please remember that * was leading this country to ruin before he and Condi ever thought of the possibility of using planes as missles.
Remember Enron, the environment, The "Clear Skies" initiative that allows polluters to swap pollution credits, drilling in ANWR . . .

All of these things and the fact that * was lying about them before he ever had a chance to lie about 911 and WMDs, call for regime change in this country.

:dem:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. lewrockwell almost always just echos RW nonsense ...

and hogwash like this ("Warmongering will be worse under Kerry than under Bush, and real peaceniks should therefore vote for Dubya") is intended to split democrats.

I think it's pretty transparent: pooh on lew.

Why are you introducing a RW source?

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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
41. Too bad you don't propose a viable alternative
Or is voting for Bush your idea of an alternative?
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davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
42. Vote for Kerry
If he turns out to be a captive of the war party too, he'll be easier to impeach.
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Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Let me suggest one way a vote for Kerry on Iraq might help.
Edited on Sun Apr-11-04 10:26 PM by Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
No he won't high tail it and run as you might want. We should have never invaded Iraq but since we've broke this thing we've bought it.

What Kerry could do that G DUHbya cannot is mend bridges with the international community. As such we might be able to form a real coalition instead of a paper one.

Even Kucinich is sugesting bringing in UN troops.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
43. I've read this post twice and still I have the same opinion
Bullshit!
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
46. Can't question bush* because of the WOT,
Can't question Kerry because it is a vote for bush*

I have a question.

Is Coke the same as Pepsi?
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Domitan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
49. Pilger also echoes similar sentiments
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=2089

John Pilger, Australian journalist and tireless antiwar protestor, makes a strong point that Kerry won't release the USA from its current state of war.

I think we need to be careful not to fall into the kneejerk trap that such criticisms towards Kerry are automatically disinformation to boost the Republicans' election fortunes. All that being read and said, I do hope that Kerry will find the spine and integrity to work towards the best and most peaceful/humane solution, should he be elected.
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Conservatives and whacko leftists agree--
Kerry is a warmongering fascist!

..just insane. Backing up your point by linking to John Pilger, of all people, is just hilarious to say the least. This is the guy who basically cheered for America to LOSE in Iraq. You're on that side?
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Domitan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. See here
Can you show me a link that clearly indicates Pilger's hoping that USA loses in Iraq? If so, what kind of loss is that? A bloodthirsty vision of a giant ocean of American blood or an impasse where USA realizes that their agenda won't work in Iraq and withdraws?

Another point: compared to the likes of Dennis K. and Howard Dean, Kerry's track record is very much that of a person who supports the Iraq War. I would hope that Kerry, if elected as president, will choose the wisest course for all involved...but it's reasonable to be leery of what he truly stands for. In European media, he's often considered a Bush-lite...better than Shrub for sure...but still one to be wary of.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Speaking proudly from beneath my wacko leftist hat...

I am offended by your characterization of my views.

Though I usually can't distinguish lewrockwell's "libertarianism" from "life with wingnuts," and though I have experienced some pangs about Kerry, I have never cheered for anybody's limbs blown off, win or lose.

If you wish to oppose the view in the original post, I cheer you on: but don't blame it on us "wacko leftists." Most of us are good down-home folk.
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