US: H-1B workers outnumber unemployed techies

[OhioChick]

Fraud case raises questions about visa program

May 26, 2009 08:44 PM ET

Computerworld - WASHINGTON -- As unemployment among tech workers increases with the recession, the U.S. government is raising broad questions as part of a federal case over H-1Bs about the connection of visa fraud to the unemployment of IT workers.

The government's interest in H-1B fraud-related unemployment turned up in court filings in a case in U.S. District Court in Iowa against a New Jersey IT firm, Visions Systems Group in South Plainfield, NJ, which was indicted in February on visa-related fraud charges.

Visions Systems was included in a sweep that led to arrests of some 11 people in six states. The government, in announcing its action, said the companies and people involved were "displacing qualified American workers," but didn't identify how many. In court papers filed last month, the U.S. indicated it may be getting ready to do just that.

The U.S. said it is "prepared to demonstrate to the court the manner in which the defendant's schemes, along with similar schemes by similar companies have substantially deprived U.S. citizens of employment." The government then points out that "in January of 2009, the total number of workers employed in the information technology occupation under the H-1B program substantially exceeded the 241,000 unemployed U.S. citizen workers within the same occupation."

The U.S. government's brief doesn't explain to what extent fraud is responsible for tech worker unemployment, or cite sources for its data. Estimates of the size of the tech labor force depend on what government labor categories are included.

One analysis by the TechServe Alliance (formerly the National Association of Computer Consultants), found that tech employment was down nearly 200,000 from December, after reaching a high 4.1 million in November.

The exact size of the H-1B labor force in the U.S. is uncertain because of a lack of accurate data. The U.S. sets a cap of 85,000 H-1B visas annually.

In the case of Vision Systems, the U.S. said the company "consistently hired only foreign workers in order to fill information technology positions within the United States." The government said "although the exact amount of loss to U.S. citizen workers has not yet been determined, there is no question that the amount of lost wages and benefits to U.S. citizens has been substantial."

Vision Systems attorneys, in court papers, dispute these allegations, and said "there is no exclusivity to a job's seeker's chance to apply for a job," and that anyone could apply. Vision Systems is fighting the charges and has filed for dismissal.

Regarding the broader issues raised by the government, Vision Systems attorneys suggested that the U.S. is politicizing the case, and that the government is arguing "that there is something illegitimate about the entire H-1B visa program, not just specific applications of it."

There are interesting arguments being raised in the courts by the U.S. over the H-1B visa. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security, in its case fighting the Programmers Guild and others from overturning the extension allowing foreign nationals with technical degrees to work on student visas from one year to 29 months, argued that the H-1B visa is needed to avoid a competitive disadvantage.


http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133529

How fucking nice. With unemployment so high here in the U.S., it's time to do away with this program for now.

[NYC_SKP]

1. Let's do away with H-1B visas forever.

The fact that we've needed to import talent is pretty persuasive proof that our educational system SUCKS.

So, instead of fixing that we perpetuate it by not even trying and getting in talent from outside.

[OhioChick]

2. If our educational system sucks....

Then why are foreign students coming to our colleges in droves?

(Will provide links, if necessary)

[NYC_SKP]

4. K12, IMO.

Our math and science scores in K-12 are dismally low.

We therefore have fewer qualified college and university entrants.

Add to this a different work ethic in our culture and attitude toward the value of education.

My opinion is subjective, but I am speaking from the experience of having attended party schools AND pretty challenging college (Chico State and the Cooper Union, respectively).

Also, I changed careers from architecture to public education, spending 8 years in the classroom and now 4 more working with teachers and schools, and can add a Masters in Education to the mix.

So, it's not like I don't have some experience to back up my observations.

We wouldn't need H-1B Visas if we had the domestic expertise, right?

[OhioChick]

5. "We wouldn't need H-1B Visas if we had the domestic expertise, right?"

It's all about cheap-ass labor.

H-1B visa holders are paid less than US counterparts-from the "Hindustan Times", no less

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=cda81c51-7247-4c2a-8e36-2414c5f9686c

As for education:

The Science Education Myth
Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_827398.htm

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html

[NYC_SKP]

9. I agree fully that it's about labor cost and profit.

And I'm glad that scores are on the rise.

Thanks for the links, good stuff.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. But if the number of unemployed American tech workers is equal to the number of H-1B visa workers,

we have the domestic expertise. The difference is money. I work in the IT department of a state university and we're now 2 H-1B visa hires out 2 job openings. Why is that when we just had a couple of hundred students graduate with IT degrees? Hint: we're a poor state university so our offering salaries are low.

[Oregone]

11. I think they missed that simple logic

The presence of any qualified but unemployed domestic IT workers indicates that the lack of education is not the cause at all. More education and programs promoting IT will only produce more unemployed IT workers. The field is already over saturated, and even moreso when you add in H1-B workers who are paid less through a system subjected to massive fraud.

[Virginian]

14. Uh, because they are accepted at the US colleges?

With tuition prices higher for foreign students, the schools can bring in more funds by admitting more foreign students.

Higher education is not an unlimited resource in the US. These are US schools, not international schools. While having some students from other countries contributes to the diversity of the school and contributes to the learning experience, there should be a per school cap on the admission of foreign students. I don't know how student visas are issued, but instead of lowering the total number of visas, there should be a visa/school connection and only a percentage issued per school.

However, schools (like community colleges) that accept anyone who registers and do not currently reject anyone, shouldn't start now. No student visas issued, students would already be here for other reasons.

[sledgehammer]

21. Tuition is NOT higher for foreign students

At public schools, foreign students pay the same tuition as any out-of-state students.

At private schools, foreign students pay the same tuition as anyone else.

There may be a nominal administrative fee to cover visa costs and the International Students Office, but that's usually quite insignificant and just covers the costs rather than increasing revenue.

[Virginian]

23. It was way back when I was in school. Thanks for letting me know.

Way back in 1970 when I was taking some classes at the community college the prices for Tuition only:

A Full time in-state student(12 credits or more)paid $45 per quarter.
The foreign students were protesting having to pay $200 more.

[sledgehammer]

24. But was that extra $200 just for foreign students?

Or any out-of-state student?

The extra amount (anywhere from 3x to 5x) sounds like a typical out-of-state surcharge at state schools even today.

[Deja Q]

30. Well, what's your solution to the problem?

Apart from supporting something that will only worsen conditions here, or weren't you capable of fathoming that? (irony is so cool!)

Our educational system is overpriced. Most of the problem is with the kiddies, who don't want to learn. Why not tell them what to do.

[cascadiance]

36. India gives FREE undergraduate degree education in their schools...

Much like California USED to do so when Jerry Brown was governor. I think if Jerry runs again for governor he should HEAVILY emphasize that he was ahead of his time of what should be done with college education here and promise to reinstate it...

I was talking to an Indian co-worker who said that though Indian bachelor's degrees aren't the equivalent of U.S. bachelor's degrees to rank applicants for jobs, they are certainly better than U.S. high school diplomas, and for Indian students their decision is that if they want to "go for the gold" to get the extra money (even working for less here in the states, but far more than what their economy would give them) is whether to invest in getting a graduate degree there or not. That or get a degree here in the states to get a job later here.

They aren't faced with the same dilemna that U.S. students are faced with when looking at potentially getting a college degree to prepare for a high tech degree here. When there is so much outsourcing or H-1B employees competing with college grads that pay a ton of money just to get a bachelor's degree up against those with subsidized bachelor's degrees that demand a lot less in salaries, it's a losing proposition. When an Indian engineer can come here and work for a few years and save a lot of his money to build a nest egg for a family living at an order of magnitude less of cost of living over in India, wheres over here families have 10 times the expenses they have to be able to pay, it's not hard to see why Americans won't work for the same salaries that H-1B workers will.

This doesn't mean that I dislike working with Indians. Some of my best friends are Indians, and I value the experience of working with many of them. But this system isn't sustainable to keep our economy healthy.

H-1B Visa should be reserved with a VERY low cap to those companies that absolutely need a very rare combination of skills that they can't easily get here (combinations of foreign languages and technical skill sets for example) and would be willing to pay more than they might pay a domestic worker would get to get those skill sets. The way the system is being scammed now, we know that's not the way this system is being used.

If companies want to hire foreign workers, and foreign workers want to come here, they should have to apply for Green Cards, or even perhaps have to apply for citizenship with the idea of becoming a TRUE immigrant living here and being a part of American society and a voter, etc. and not just come here to get some extra bucks so that they can go back home more well off and transfer their skills to companies in India or other similar places at American workers' expense.

We need to push for global economic reform to help reward people more in their countries where they live so that they don't need to move here to have a decent working life. And those that want to come here and live the *American* dream and not just the dream of getting bucks, I say come here and become citizens like the way our melting pot has traditionally functioned.

Now about the H-1B Visa people outnumbering our unemployed... I could certainly use one of those H-1B jobs right now!!

[hootinholler]

34. H1-Bs have never been about getting talent...

They are about getting talent cheap. When you can import a guy willing to do the job at half the wages (or less) not only do you make money on him, but you also depress the prevailing wages in a skill category. It doesn't matter if they can actually speak English or even write correct code (most can do both) if you depress the wage market enough the H1-B guy can sit on his ass and you still make money.

-Hoot

[sybylla]

37. Not only that - but work him/her 80-100 hours a week in a salaried position and

send him/her on the road for weeks or even months at a time without hearing a complaint(because if they complain you can send them back to thirdworldistan and get another). H1-B workers are more profitable than people think at first glance and they end all employee complaints and scheduling headaches.

The H1-B system is institutionalized slavery. Few people seem to realize that and fewer still even talk about it. It's a system that needs to end now.

[LynneSin]

46. It has nothing to do with education and more to do with cost

That's just a bullcrap line to convince us we need this program

[Phred42]

3. Thanks for keeping up on this issue OhioChick

:toast:

:kick:

:applause:

[OhioChick]

6. Hey Phred...

How's it going? :hi:

[Phred42]

10. Still looking for work....Outsourcing (and H-1B) is good for America

Hope all is well with you...

[OhioChick]

12. Hell.....My job will be given to a foreigner soon......

I feel your pain. Hope you find something soon.

[Virginian]

22. Gave up looking

My IT job went to an H-1b employee in 2003.

I had never had a problem finding a job before, I thought it would be easy to find another one at my salary level. My interviews were few and far between. I was hoping John Edwards would become VP in 2004 and have some influence in this matter. I thought he would recognize that importing foreign workers was contributing to "Two Americas". I also thought that as long as Bush was in office, the H-1b quotas would go up and up.

With over 20 years of IT experience, I finally found an unskilled job. I now work two or three days a week. It was four days but they had to cut back. I have been out of the field too long now. I am older and most schools did not offer IT degrees in my day so, I don't have one. I majored in education but ran out of money, found a job in IT and dropped out my junior year. I worked my way up from operator to Junior Programmer to Programmer to senior programmer and had a lot of other titles which had the words "analyst", "engineer" and "developer" in them. I have even had the title of "manager".
It would be a miracle if I ever found an IT job again.

"What Y2K problem?" - me (1998)
"Importing so many foreign workers to take our better paying jobs is not good for America. Sooner or later, it will have an impact on our economy." - me (2001)

[Grinchie]

26. Same here Virginian. When you realize that this crap is widespread

The hardest part is convincing your spouse that the jobs have disappeared overnight.

That process took me almost 2 years, but finally she realized that the Jobs were gone. It started slowly at first, but it was an inexorbale drain on savings, coupled with slashed wages despite working for successful Government contractors, which starangely seemed to need increased H1-B drones to function.

At the same time, the Bush Administration is Rah Rah Rah Big Buggle Boom Bah, despite the fact that Corporate is moving everything overseas.

The way I see it now, Corporate IT is now collapsing under its own greed. They just don't want to pay for well thought out software anymore, and the focus is on a slightly new application every year or two, much like the Auto Industry model of planned obsolescence.

As I saw Microsoft turn into the same, money hungry, auto industry model, I vowed to not upgrade or be an Early Adopter for them ever again. Especially after I added up my costs for virtually beta testing their crappy software, absorbing my costs in time and aggravation.

When Microsoft finally colludes with Hardware and makes Vista the only thing that will run on newer machines, then I will know that the IT industry has turned into GM.

They want the OS to drive upgrades, and I have no doubt they went to bed with the Bush Administration to pop about a thousand ways to insinuate their way into our systems at will for a look around.

I have found a better career though, and that is growing food and providing tangible assets for myself. Never again will Corporate interest steal my innovations with their Contractual gymnastics.

The biggest trouble I have today is that I see the U.S. Government behaving exactly like a big Corporation. The Board controls the direction, and Americans are the drones that follow the marching orders.

[Oregone]

13. Its great for Americans who make large political contributions and live in fancy houses

[MindPilot]

8. "The exact size of the H-1B labor force in the U.S. is uncertain because of a lack of accurate data'

So the people handing out the visas don't even know how many they've handed out?

Each and every H1B visa issued represents someone in the US government knowingly displacing an American worker in favor of a non-citizen.

Is that a crime? If not, it should be.

[Oregone]

15. Why can't we have an H1-B system for our politicians too?

Or just outsource em.

Clearly, our current ones don't care. Maybe my new (lower paid) Indian overlord will show more care and benevolence to my IT brethren.

[OhioChick]

16. " Why can't we have an H1-B system for our politicians too?"

Now, I really like that idea.

[Azlady]

27. Yep, I agree! n/t

[Deja Q]

31. Be careful what you wish for...

I think politicians elected to serve Americans would be best.

If we are "one global whatever", people need to be reminded of that as well. Or believed that is reality, whatever that is.

[MindPilot]

19. Probably the same reason we don't get the health care plan they do.

you know depends on your caste, er, class, ummmmm we don't have those, wait...station in life, yes that's what it depends on.

[sybylla]

33. That was my first thought

The fees they collect for the visas and the fact that you can't be in this country working without one in the tech industry tells me either the INS has totally lost control or they're trying to hid the real numbers because they absolutely reek.

[MindPilot]

17. I wonder why conservatives are not squawking about this very loudly

They are scared to death that Mexicans are going to take their jobs, use up their schools, hospitals, and car insurance, but the people who really are here to take jobs--and doing it with the blessing of the US government--slip right under their radar.

[dugaresa]

28. because the big wigs in the corporations are donating to their campaigns

so while they may rail against the migrant worker picking lettuce, they aren't going to rail against the Chinese or Indian who takes away an engineering job from a US citizen because the H1B guy makes a lot less and thus benefits mr. big wig at the corporation who has more money to give the politician.

[sybylla]

38. Bingo.

Too much money to be made and too many palms greased for there to be any push back.

Fortunately, this program is beginning to look like such a PR nightmare that I have a feeling the political will to abolish it or reform it is brewing as we type.

[Deja Q]

32. They only remove the superglue from their eyes when a "D" is in power. When a "R" is in power,

back on goes the superglue.

By now, they're blind from all that ripping off and putting back on...

[Bozita]

18. H-1Bs are to tech workers what NAFTA is to the domestic auto industry

[MindPilot]

20. Yes!!!

:applause:

[ihavenobias]

25. Interesting.

Thanks for posting.

[Deja Q]

29. Well, it's nice to see the US leading the pack on putting its own behind...

:sarcasm:

I'm about at 99% now; the H1B system is just one big pus dripping fraud. It had its time and place, but it doesn't. Not anymore. Not like this.

[blue97keet]

35. fraud it not the problem, the entire program is the problem

--" and that the government is arguing "that there is something illegitimate about the entire H-1B visa program, not just specific applications of it.""

That's right, there is something illegitimate about the entire H-1B program: namely that "fraud" is not required to outright replace American workers. As it stands it is perfectly legal to do exactly that without "fraud" thanks to our corporatist government.

[mule_train]

43. the program is functioning EXACTLY as intended

and that's why they have so much 'trouble' 'fixing' it ;)

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. So why is homeland security concerned about "competetive disadvantage"?

The entire government is run for the purpose of assuring narrow-band private profit.

[ChromeFoundry]

40. Abolish this piece of shit program! n/t

[Vincardog]

41. 1 displaced qualified American worker here

[OhioChick]

42. I'm sorry to hear that and hope you find something soon.

Following the article on ComputerWorld is a comment section which you can add your comment and vote on.

Quite interesting. :thumbsup:

[mule_train]

44. Translation: 100% of citizen tech worker unemployment is thanks to our government's H-1b program

and every tech worker tossed out of the field ends up competing for the remaining non-tech jobs, driving down those wages

H-1b is a sledgehammer on the middle class, period

[OhioChick]

45. "H-1b is a sledgehammer on the middle class"

That it is.