Immigration poll.

[denverbill]

Poll question: Immigration poll.

I've been wondering what most DU'ers think on immigration. It's a difficult issue for me, in that, as a progressive/liberal, I want better conditions for third world people too, and would like them to have a shot at the American dream. OTOH, massive immigration is costing Americans jobs. And not just jobs in the fields anymore either. Jobs in construction, landscaping, meatpacking, and elsewhere. So where do you stand on the immigration issue?

[Gringo]

1. Unlimited immigration is strictly RIGHT-WING

It grows the labor force too fast, keeps wage pressure down, harms workers.

Liberals who support unlimited immigration are doing so at the expense of workers already here.

Legal immigrants who are already here should be treated like gold. They are a valueable asset to our economy.

Illegals need to be removed from the country, but never abused or demonized. The pressures that bring them here are no fault of their own.

[Gringo]

2. Also, increased population is detrimental to quality of life.

The countries with the highest standards of living have the slowest, or no population growth.

It complicates things like pensions, but the benefits of low immigration far outweight the problems.

(My wife is an immigrant, here through marriage to me)

One million plus LEGAL immigrants per year (the rate for the last 10 years or so) is far too much for the US to absorb.

This is one of those things where I actually agree with Pat Buchannan.

[blondeatlast]

43. I suppose Cesar Chavez would agree with you?

Don't be disingenuous--I suggest you rethink your avatar.

[Gringo]

52. My admiration of Chavez doesn't mean I agree w/him on EVERYTHING.

Any more than all catholics agree with the pope.

I love Chavez because he fought for the rights of farm workers who were here. I don't know what his position was on immigration, but I believe unchecked immigration hurts everyone in the lower half of the jobs pool, including Mexican farm workers. It drives down their wages as surely as it drives down "ours".

[durutti]

47. Nah.

Marx was all for open borders. Free trade too.

[ldoolin]

82. Right on

This is entirely correct, unlimited immigration is the position of the libertarian extreme right. It is a corporate tool to force wages down, replace union jobs with cheap non-union labor, and force more real estate development (sprawl). This makes the current immigration policy of the U.S. both an environmental and a labor issue. Bush's amnesty/guest worker program is no fluke, he's taking his cues straight from the extreme-right-wing Cato Institute.

There are far too many liberals who need to rethink their views on this issue.

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. America can win the war against illegal aliens!

Lou Dobbs had a piece about a guy who makes $9/hr washing dishes.

He shares a rented house with 9 other people, and he is happy!

Americans can beat illegal immigration if they will just be willing to change their lifestyles and work for a globally competitive wage at the jobs that need doing.

Maybe they won't make $9/hr, that is pretty high for dishwashing, but the point is that all work is dignified, even if it isn't what you went to school for. You will always have your schoolday memories, and the real benefits of education aren't about money.

Don't just complain! Start tomorrow. Instead of going to your overpaid desk job, call in Pro-American!

If you're unemployed, stop wasting your money on resumes and laundered shirts and get to work!

Go down to the local convenience store and take your place among those illegal aliens waiting for day work.

It's your birthright! claim it!

Other things you can do to win the war against illegal aliens:

Sell your house. Send the money to Washington to help pay for more soldiers to guard the borders and shoot the illegal aliens who try to get into America to steal American jobs.

Get together with family members or friends or neighbors and go in together on a one-bedroom apartment in a low income area that you can all share. To save space, get rid of bulky furniture and use plastic garbage bags. You'll save money, too!

The illegal aliens think you are weak. They think you can't live without your electricity and your telephones and your fancy food. Prove them wrong!

Beans and tortillas are inexpensive and nutritious. You will be able to feed your entire extended family for pennies a day! Every day, year in and year out!

Once you take these patriotic steps, you'll notice an added benefit - now you can travel light! Relocation isn't the big bugaboo it used to be! Spring is coming, and that means plenty of honest work in the open air - for the whole family! Many growers even provide housing and food, and take the cost right out of your wages - you won't even miss it!

Sure winning the war against illegal aliens will mean some changes, but those changes mean keeping American jobs safe for American workers and being a part of the exciting global economy, which means more good news for the war on terror!

[TexasMexican]

5. Almost sounds like a good idea.

if it didnt seem so sarcastic, too many people live beyond thier means.

Aint nothing wrong with beans, rice, and tortillas.

[BoB Bonnet]

57. You First

And send your worldly possessions to me.

[Taeger]

17. Red Herring

We aren't even TRYING to stop illegal immigration right now. The powers that be are openly encouraging it.

The fact that we don't track down illegals ENCOURAGES MORE ILLEGALS!!!! They come because they believe they can. If they believe they will be stopped and returned, they'll stop coming in such massive numbers.

No one can EVER completely stop the problem. But we can marginalize it by defending our borders. More border agents means good jobs. Decreasing the number of illegals means higher wages for the working poor.

The poverty of Mexicans has NOTHING to do with the prosperity of middle class Americans. They shouldn't look to the working poor for their salvation. They should force the Oligarchy of Mexico to cough up the fair share they deserve of Mexico's wealth.

Finally, you won't ever see a CEO in favor of allowing foreigners to come take THEIR jobs. It's always the people who are LEAST powerful that suffer. Republicans could give a shit less about the health and living condition of illegal aliens. If they cared, they'd pay a living wage. They are only interested in exploiting one human being at the cost of another for their ultimate gratification.

[DuctapeFatwa]

21. No, it is reality. If you want the jobs that people are coming here to do

then it is in your power to see that they go to American citizens instead of undocumented Mexicans.

I am not aware of a large influx of illegal aliens crossing the border and obtaining employment as white collar workers making a living wage.

[Taeger]

25. You claim

Are you claiming that Americans don't want to be carpenters or roofers. Lots of honest men have made their livings in those trades. It's good honest work.

Well, it was until employers decided to crash those labor markets by hiring illegals.


I hate this "dreaming of a job" shit. The fact is that very few people do the jobs that they dreamed of doing. The best that we all can do is to do a job that is reasonable for a decent wage. Sometimes we get lucky and stumble onto the dream.

I would strongly support ANY effort by regular Mexicans to wrest control of their government AWAY from their Oligarchs. I think that America committed a great crime when we sent Pershing to defeat Poncho Villa. I believe in freedoms for all peoples. But I refuse to give away MY freedoms so that I might be a slave.

[DuctapeFatwa]

26. I am claiming that few Americans seem interested in working for the market

rate. If they want roofing jobs, and they are able to do the work as well as the Mexicans, and for the same or a lower wage, they have every right to get out there in the Quik Trip parking lot and wait with the rest.

Ditto dishwashers, hotel room cleaners, oyster shuckers, construction cleanup crew...

The US has a free market. Capitalism. Societies make choices, and choices have consequences.

I would strongly support ANY effort by regular Americans to wrest control of their government AWAY from their Oligarchs.

[Gringo]

30. An unfettered free market always seeks to drive down costs

Even when it means importing scores of workers to depress wages to the point where nobody could possibly live on them.

Most of us are democrats because we realize an UNFETTERED free market is NOT the best thing for a modern society - just as an overly centralized, socialist economy would not be.

Even the people doing the menial jobs you mention are worthy of respect and a paycheck at least sufficient to keep a roof over their heads and food in their bellies.

Edit - I saw your avatar & thought you were muddle off the road. Skip the last part.

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. I wonder if you could be confusing me with someone else?

I have never used the nick "Muddle" nor have I said anything indicating support of the "unfettered free market," or "feudalism," which requires less typing and is more accurate.

What I have done is point out the obvious: a society who chooses feudalism can hardly complain when it functions as it is intended to.

Feudalism is not and was never intended to benefit the serf, beyond the principle that an obedient serf is less likely to be killed.

[BoB Bonnet]

58. racial profiling

Except the "Gringo" foreman won't let the "white" guys jump into the back of his pick-up. He is afraid they will demand a living wage.

[Taeger]

63. Furthmore

I would not feel safe threatening the jobs of illegal aliens. I don't think they'd be too pleased to see me driving down THEIR wages.

It would be an interesting experiment. I've already read comments by illegals that THEY opposed an open border for the VERY SAME REASON. It's seems that EVERYBODY is a little xenophobic.

[DuctapeFatwa]

80. You are not threatening anything. The man needs roofers. He pays $6/hr

If you are able and willing to do roofing from dawn to dark for $6/hr there is plenty of roofing work for everybody.

Now if you are not willing to work for the market rate, or you are not able to get the same square footage per hour completed as the other roofers are, then it is your own employment as a roofer that is threatened, not theirs.

If the roofer hired less productive people and paid them $30 an hour, or even $12, then the price of housing would go up even more.

The house that costs $200K would cost $500 or $800K.

Housing, like your labor, is a free market commodity.

[DuctapeFatwa]

81. Day labor workers do not get to "demand." You take what is offered or

you don't work.

In that regard, it is no different from Wal-Mart. If you don't want to work for Wal-Mart for $6/hr, you have the freedom to go ask someone else to pay you more.

[blondeatlast]

70. Absolutely. But that means going after the those that hire them,

and, you know, most landscaping businesses have HUGE legal departments. Same with restaurants and car washes. Citrus farmers too (actually, that is sadly the truth now, they've all gone corporate).

I know you detect the sarcasm, DF, but in case others miss it:

THIS POST IS DRIPPING WITH SARCASM.

[cryofan]

59. It's not just the GOP that encourages illegal immigration, the Dems do it

, too.

Didn't anyone watch the dems debate in New Mexico?

[blondeatlast]

68. Track down??? Did you really say TRACK-DOWN?

There is only one way to stop the exploitation of these workers, but it will never happen.

The only way is to severely prosecute the corporations who hire (exploit them). Not just fines, make them do hard time--I'm serious.

Do you think for a minute the employers take the time to check documents? Or to verify that the green card is for real?

[TexasMexican]

4. I supporter open boarders between the US, Canada, and Mexico...

As long as those nations have agree to be as strict as us about allowing others from overseas into thier country. I.E. people from the Middle-East.

[mitchtv]

8. how about if Americans be allowed to

own in mexico where they want to.

[TexasMexican]

11. What do you mean?

I dont understand the question.

[mitchtv]

14. Americans as I understand cannot Own land by the coast

must lease it . The laws change constantly, but i know that non citizens can own land unlimited in the US. And I am unwilling to allow Mex. citzens unlimited immigration if I cannot own , where I want to in Mexico

[blondeatlast]

72. Ford, GM, Levi-Strauss, GE--who says Americans can't own in

Mexico?

[morgan2]

6. other

we should do as much as we can to prevent illegal immigration, but not spend time hunting down illegals once they are in the us. The people that should be punished are those who hire illegal aliens and take advantage of their illegal status to treat them like slaves.

[blondeatlast]

41. Start with the coyotes who smuggle them--the modern equivalent of

slave-traders.

[JasonBerry]

7. Here is a MUST READ from LA Times

This was the cover of the LA TIMES MAGAZINE juts this past Sunday. It's well worth the time to read. It confronts an issue we simply don't WANT to confront.
http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-growth04jan25,1,5397335.story?coll=la-home-magazine

This requires a free registration, but I encourage you to do so and read this. It's the best thing I've read on this topic in years. It confronts the very problem the poster is talking about. It's a fine line to walk. Excellent story - well written too.

[Taeger]

16. Freebies

Free Condoms and Free Birth Control. Free Norplant implants for any woman who wants it.

Humanitarians shouldn't loose sight of the long term. At some point we will overwhelm the planets ability to sustain us. At that point BILLIONS will starve in the matter of years.

Moving to nuetral population growth should be the goal of every governmental agency around the world.

But population growth is good for the super rich. It forces everyone to fight for scraps.

Every instance of massive population reduction in history was followed by economic prosperity. Less people place less demands on resources. Less demand makes resources less valuable. That makes the holders of those resources less powerful. It balances the equation and returns powers to the masses.

I don't advocate intentional population reduction. I advocate measures that encourage people to limit their numbers. More family planning. More contraception. Otherwise, will be like China in 100 years where people are limited to one child by law.

[guajira]

64. Absolutely - Birth Control Should be Very Affordable or Free!

No woman (or man) should have to worry about having an unwanted child because they can't afford condoms or birth control pills. That's barbaric!

If birth control usage wasn't a part of religious doctrine, this world would be a better place.

[ldoolin]

83. Right on

For hours of good reading, the website to visit is:

www.npg.org

[Loonman]

9. In order for reforms to be instituted

Immigration should be ceased completely, then restarted with more stringent rules in place.

[spindoctor]

10. An anarchist asking for more stringent rules?

Sid Vicious just turned over in his grave. lol

[blondeatlast]

42. Heh, I noticed that too.

[ldoolin]

84. Yeah, Sid Vicious may have but I'll bet Ed Abbey didn't

Look up Ed Abbey's views on immigration. They are in the very same book where he also has an essay in favor of anarchism: One Life at a Time, Please

[BigBigBear]

12. Hey Bill

have you read much of Frosty Weller's writings on the subject? Rabidly anti-immigration, poisonously so.

Just curious: he's a fellow Coloradoan. From Louisville. I knew him twenty years ago when we worked together at a junk mail processing house, which was set up by a buddy of Richard Viguerie, Phil Wiland.

Me? As long as they work, behave themselves and particpate in the civic traditions of the nation, I think they should be welcome.

[Taeger]

13. The American Family

If you come here legally and go through the naturalization process, you are part of the family.

If you come here illegally, you are an invader in a family home.

I would support plans that offered illegals amnesty for themselves and immediate family in return for military service. I would support a plan that would give preferential treatment to foreigners who want to migrate and join the US military.

I would support a plan that PAID illegal immigrants to go home.

I would support a plan that would increase border enforcement.

I would support a plan that delegated INS powers to state police agencies (federalism). I would support paying bounties to state police for finding illegals and Visa skippers and delivering them to the INS for due process.

I would support national guard deployments along the border to help beleagered INS officers.

I would support more money for the Coast Guard. I would support the Navy acting as "service providers" for Coast Guard operations.

In the post 9-11 world, we must assume that illegals are potential terrorists. We must get serious about defending our borders.

Mexicans are not poor because middle class Americans aren't helping them. Mexicans are poor because Mexican OLIGARCHS aren't helping them. The solution is in Mexico, not in the US. We cannot help ANYONE if we make ourselves poor.

[spindoctor]

15. As an immigrant...

I would like to point out that not all immigrants are third world people.

As a liberal, I would like to point out that "third world" immigrants hardly form a threat to jobs that Americans eagerly perform, let alone jobs that will allow them to live "the American dream", which in itself is more abstract terminology. I would be more concerned about the current outsourcing trend. We bring the jobs that Americans WANT to do to the "third world". That will solve the immigration issue. lol

As an American, I would like to point out that any wealthy country deals with immigration problems and they all require laws and regulations to prevent an uncontrolled flow of immigrants. You need to have some kind of grip on it.

[Taeger]

24. BULLSHIT!!!!

Any job is desirable if it pays well. The strongest unions in this nation is TRASH HAULERS. It's a stinky disgusting job. But through organized labor, they've made it VERY WELL PAYING.

I kid you not. You must get on waiting list FOR YEARS to get trash hauling jobs.

What about prison guards???? It's one of the most dangerous jobs out there. Yet prison guards make as much as a decent engineer. Why???? Organized labor. Like trash hauling, it's hard to get a job in that well paying sector.

Are you honestly telling me that all those Maquiladoras on the border are filled with jobs that Americans DON'T WANT. HORSE SHIT!!!!

America has been the haven of immigration for centuries. We admit more immigrants than any other nation on Earth. We should not be expected to accept any more than we desire as a nation. It is a sovereign right.

I AM NOT an immigrant. I am a descendant of immigrants. This is my home and native land. I believe my nation should be as self sufficient as possible for the sake of general prosperity and national defense.

I believe the same of most countries. They should be as LOCAL as possible and as self sufficient as possible. If a country has an overpopulation problem, IT'S THEIR PROBLEM.

I don't believe in US Corporations sucking the wealth of nations for the benefit of a few in the US. Us average citizens never see that wealth. We have more than enough wealth right here in the US.

The veterans of US wars have given the ultimate sacrifices for the sake of American freedom and prosperity. They did not give their lives so that their descendants could be poor. So that their sovereignty could be eroded by so-called "international organizations".

All peoples must look to their own health first. Then if they are healthy they can help others to make their own health.

The first act of any illegal immigrant in the US is a felony. So don't tell me they are just "law abiding citizens". They follow that up with acts of forgery and impersonation. They don't pay taxes that pay for basic civil services beyond property taxes in rent. They often skirt the basic assumptions of rent by overpopulating apartments. They drive up rents in areas where they have settled. They use hospital services that they have not contributed to. It is all theft and ALL illegal.

Finally, don't tell me your here to help Americans. Your not. Your here to help yourself. I don't blame you. Everyone is has a right to seek opportunity. But I'm insulted by the pretense. I'd rather that illegal immigrants take the actions of American patriots who FOUGHT FOR THEIR RIGHTS in their native land.

[spindoctor]

28. Whoa buddy

Are you honestly telling me that all those Maquiladoras on the border are filled with jobs that Americans DON'T WANT. HORSE SHIT!!!!

Those maquiladoras are on the Mexican side of the border, aren't they? We exported those jobs, we did not import the workers.
This falls in the same category as the outsourcing that I already mentioned.

America has been the haven of immigration for centuries.

Yep. That's how you ended up being an American.

We admit more immigrants than any other nation on Earth.

Proportianally, the top three would be Luxembourg, Switzerland and Canada. Australia too has its fair share.

We should not be expected to accept any more than we desire as a nation. It is a sovereign right.

Yes it is. Did I argue that?

I believe the same of most countries. They should be as LOCAL as possible and as self sufficient as possible. If a country has an overpopulation problem, IT'S THEIR PROBLEM.

What does immigration have to do with overpopulation? I never heard that to be a motive.

The veterans of US wars have given the ultimate sacrifices for the sake of American freedom and prosperity. They did not give their lives so that their descendants could be poor. So that their sovereignty could be eroded by so-called "international organizations".

Sure, play the veteran card. Let me quote veteran Stan Goff: "For a global economic agenda, there is always a corresponding political and military agenda".
Are our future veterans in Iraq defending our wealth, or accumulating Haliburton's wealth. Do you think it will trickle down? HAH!
Did our Vietnam vets gave their lives so that their children could be rich? Or the Haiti vets? Or the Panama vets? Wait...Korean vets?

Finally, don't tell me your here to help Americans. Your not.

Well, I know several people who would disagree. Did I already mention that I am an American, btw? Of course not as noble as a third or fourth generation American, but hey...there's hope for my kids, right?
So are Americans here to help Americans or are they here to help themselves? If all Americans were good-hearted selfless people whos single goal in life it was to help their neighbors, there would be no need for this website and we wouldn't be having this duscussion.

I am sorry, but you can't blame all the problems of the (your) world on immigrants. There are many far more important issues.
Like Janet Jackson's boobs for example.

[blondeatlast]

71. There are a hell of a lot of 1st & 2nd generation "illegal immigrants"

being maimed and dying in Iraq and oh, yeah, that other place. what is it? Oh, yeah--Afghanistan.

They signed on to protect these borders from louts like OBL; now they die for a lie right next to their 6th generation pals.

But once they come back maimed, let's get them the hell out of the US so they don't put a drain on our economy.

With the Bushistas cutting slashing vet benefits drastically, don't think it won't happen.

[JasonBerry]

18. Snippets from LA Times

Here's a few snips from the LA Times magazine story this past Sunday. The numbers tell the story and they boggle the mind.

"In other words, there's plenty of room at the Hotel California as long as everyone doesn't keep checking into the same overused rooms. The Eagles were right: This could be heaven or this could be hell. But the more closely you examine California's plight, the more the heaven part looks iffy. No other state has so many residents (Texas ranks second, but with almost 40% fewer people), and no other state comes close to matching California's annual net population increase. In Los Angeles County and five surrounding counties—Orange, San Bernardino, Riverside, Ventura and Imperial—the population now stands at more than 17 million. That's nearly 6% of the U.S. population, one in every 17 Americans, all within a four-hour drive—if you can find four hours when the traffic isn't bad. At least 20% already live in crowded housing, and poverty levels have increased steadily for three decades. Yet during the next 25 years the region is projected to grow by 6 million. This is not exactly a formula for a Golden State."

"Demographic studies after the 2000 census revealed that from 1990 to 2000, immigrants and their children accounted not for just some, or even most, of California's growth. They accounted for virtually all of it. Of the increase of 4.2 million people during those 10 years, the net gain generated by the native population was just 90,000, fewer than attend each year's Rose Bowl game."

"Immigrants—specifically Latinos, who constitute the majority of the state's more than 9 million immigrants—inflate the population not just by coming to California but by having children once they're here. While the combined birthrate for California's U.S. citizens and immigrants who are not Latino has dropped to replacement level, the birthrate for Latino immigrants from Mexico and Central America averages more than three children per mother."

California's resources cannot sustain this.

[denverbill]

36. My own opinion.

This is one issue that could destroy Republican chances in 2004. If the Democratic candidate came out against illegal immigration, and for stronger border controls, Democrats would win in a landslide, IMO. Tom Tancredo, the wacko Republican from Colorado, was reelected by like a 2-1 margin, largely because of his opposition to illegal immigration.

I believe in immigration. I enjoy the richness of America's cultural history provided by the varied backgrounds and heritages of it's people. It's great to read of success stories - the poor Mexican who builds a business and returns home to help his people, the Nigerian taxi driver to supports his whole family, etc.

I'm going to use Mexico as my example, because Mexican immigration is the biggest issue right now.

In an ideal world, we could change conditions in Mexico, so that the floodgates of illegal immigration would shut themselves off, by improving working conditions in Mexico. But that's not something we can do overnight.

Until standards for Mexican labor have started to approach those for American labor, we MUST restrict immigration to prevent wage and job pressure on American labor and to relieve the enormous burden which rapid population growth is placing on many states and cities.

When the economy in the US is going strong, as it was in the 90's, immigration should be automatically allowed to increase. When the economy begins to slow, so should immigration. However, the only way you can slow immigration is to have some control of it to begin with.

Illegal Mexican immigrants in the US right now are easy targets for employers and swindlers. They pay enormous fees to get here, to cash their paychecks, to get the fake ID's needed for work, etc. Their employers have them by the gonads too. If the employee bitches about harsh work conditions, poor pay, or anything else, he can be fired at a whim with no recourse and replaced by another within hours.

And I also say that most workers who eventually apply to legally work in the US should be those who wish to become US citizens, and that after a defined period of working, with no criminal offenses, an immigrant ought to be granted US citizenship.

But we have to begin by ending the ridiculous practice of so feebly enforcing immigration law that we are being buried in immigrants.

[Kamika]

19. Aslong as they get jobs im for unlimited immigration

I love new people

[Terwilliger]

20. change the world so that people don't need to come here to have money

[JasonBerry]

22. Just can't resist

Terr, Your sig line takes on a whole new meaning for this thread! :)

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. You are coming dangerously close to the Forbidden Question

Why is it that people are starving in Mexico and will come here to work for peanuts and live 12 in an apartment?

Why is it that programmers in India will work for $12 an hour?

Lou will be very upset with you.

[spindoctor]

29. Can't do that

That would make sense.

[Taeger]

34. Like invading Iraq????

We have to accept that we have a limited ability to "change the world".

The best we can do is support democracy when it flourishes. The US has done a VERY poor job in post WWI times. We actively uprooted democracies amongst the "brown" peoples of the world in favor of pro-corporate exploitation dictators.

So support Hugo Chavez. Venezuelan democracy is under assault from the Bush White House. At the same time, Bush is trying to install a puppet government in Iraq who will willingly hand over that countries natural resource (oil) to Bush's buddies in return for position and power.

[JPace]

61. I think we are having an awful time trying to meet

the needs in our own country, and while
I believe in helping other nations when
we can to say we should change the world
so they do not need to come here is very
unrealistic. There is a lot of need right
here, particularly now with all the job
losses and cuts in social programs, we
need to take care of our own with our
limited personal resources. We are about
6% of the world population, we do have
limits.

[SeattleRob]

27. This is a Divide and Conquer Issue

My ancestry were immagrants (wales 19th Century) as were most Americans - except Native Americans. I support immigrant rights to get citizenship.

I believe this is an issue that is here to divide us. I would argue that most Americans have a hell of a lot more in common with immigrants than we do with the ruling elites who help drive down wages.

If we wanted to "solve" the problems of illegal immigration, it would be simple. Come down with heavy fines and punishment for people who hire illegals.

On this thread, I have seen the argument that illegal immigrants drive down our wages and put a strain on our social programs. I think it is more useful and contrsuctive to ask, why are conditions in these other countries so bad that people want to leave? In Haiti, for example, the US Government has a long history of propping up dictators and training paramilitaries. In other countries, corrupt governments rob the people blind, while enriching themselves.

[durutti]

32. Absolutely.

Immigration, religion, marriage, "family values", attacks on affirmative action -- all serve the same purpose.

[durutti]

31. Immigration is not costing jobs.

First of all, it should be noted that even the most massive immigration would never "cost jobs". The fact that you (and most people) say it does reveals something telling about the dominant ideology, however.

Immigrants do not have the power to fire anyone they didn't employ in the first place. Immigrants do not cause unemployment. Greedy businessmen and businesswomen who care more about profits than their fellow humans cause unemployment.

Of course, I'm sure what I'm sure you mean to say is that employers prefer to hire immigrants, who are willing to work for less, resulting in unemployment for those who otherwise would have done these jobs. But this too is false.

Immigrants have a higher rate of entrepreneurship than the general population. Those who aren't entrepreneurs perform jobs that many Americans aren't willing to do anyway.

Furthermore, immigrants invest savings they bring with them, contribute to economies of scale in the production and growth of markets, and fill niches in particularly high- and low-paying sectors, creating subsidiary employment.

The National Academy of Sciences found that overall, immigrants benefit the U.S. economy, adding as much as $10 billion to the economy every year.

[denverbill]

38. Baloney.

Immigrants don't fire anyone, true. Businesses do. If there is a supply of cheap labor, legal or not, some business will exploit it. If one business exploits it, it becomes a major competitive advantage, causing other businesses to either do likewise or risk failure.

You said "resulting in unemployment for those who otherwise would have done these jobs. But this too is false." How the hell is that false? It is EXACTLY the problem and the truth. Nobody can tell me that Americans wouldn't hang drywall if the wages are decent, because there are thousands of Americans doing it nationwide. But in areas where there are large illegal immigrant populations, virtually no Americans are hanging drywall. It's not because Americans wouldn't do it if they could make a living wage. It's because they aren't willing to do it if it means living 10 people to a tiny apartment.

It's an argument as simple as economics - An oversupply of labor pushes down the price of that labor. The capital class always trys to ensure that unemployment never goes below a certain level, precisely to control labor costs. Massive, uncontrolled immigration is a capitalists dream come true.

[durutti]

48. I provided evidence in post.

I can supply more, if you'd like. And it will all be from reliable, peer-reviewed sociological and economic sources -- not xenophobic think tanks.

[Taeger]

49. You will provide evidence ...

You will provide evidence that Americans don't want to hang dry wall or do roofing or carpentry. Surely your not implying that American Christians have an aversion to Carpentry.

[blondeatlast]

74. This isn't the first time I've seen RW sources used here at DU

It seems to be a creeping illness; just look at GD2004Primary.

[PsN2Wind]

45. You seem to feel there would be this great benefit

to the country if the illegals here now are granted amnesty. Vincente Fox said he expected each of these five to ten million to be reunited in this country with, on average, five family members.
That means an influx of twenty-five to fifty million family members, of which, maybe twenty to forty million would be children. How long do the immigrants need to work and pay taxes before the schools we will need to build will be paid for? The additional teachers, and as those of us in border areas can attest, prisons and emergency rooms?
The benefit goes to the employers, the cost to the taxpayer.

[blondeatlast]

73. They may be the last hope of independently owned business

left in the US. Just walk through any barrio and there is entrepeneurship at every turn.

It's really quite impressive.

[karabekian]

33. i have a perfect solution

arrest and charge every executive and business owner that hires illegals. Make it their responsibility to check and not hire them. The job market will dry up and the ecomonic incentive to illegally come to the US disappears. That way you don't abuse or deport anyone and deal with the problem in a humane way.

[blondeatlast]

44. It'll never happen, but it's the only sane approach.

It would dry up the market for the slavers known as "coyotes," too.

[LiberalBushFan]

37. But.. but.. we were all immigrants here at some point

America has been a nation of immigrants. But that's because we've often needed workers. That's why we let people come in. Right now, we DON'T need more workers, so we should not let them in. If Democrats really wanted to win elections they'd run on these simple facts instead of pandering to the small percent of the population that thinks we should let illegals stay.

[Taeger]

50. No I'm not

No I'm not an immigrant. I was born and raised in this nation. It has nothing to do with race or creed. My anscestors who immigrated here did it LEGALLY!!!!! I can supply the papers from Ellis Island to prove it.

I have no feelings of discrimination against LEGAL immigrants. Once they're here, they are part of the family.

[DuctapeFatwa]

88. Unless you are an indigenous person of this continent

you are an immigrant, a descendant of someone who came here either voluntarily or involuntarily.

What you refer to as "Latin Americans" were here when the first Spanish invaders came.

[RebelOne]

39. I lived in Miami at the time that Carter allowed all the Cuban immigrants

in and that was the worst thing he could have done. Castro opened up all his prisons and sent all the prisoners to South Florida. Well, our crime rate doubled at that time. I am 100% against illegal immigration.

[blondeatlast]

40. In Arizona, the economy depends on undocumented workers.

The tourist industry, rightly or wrongly, drives the economy. It would collapse without them.

Give them a chance.

[dumpster_baby]

46. When you say "The Economy", you mean the wallet size of business.

Immigration increases labor supply. RIght? And when you increase the supply of a commodity without increasing the demand for it by as much or more, the price for that commodity goes down.

Immigration hurts working Americans. Period. If we stop immigration, the supply of menial laborers, construction workers, fruit pickers will go down, right? So you tell me what happens to the wages offered for such jobs? The wages will go UP.

Hey, that is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. We WANT high wages in America for American citizens. Our wages are like a business owner's profits. You don't hear THEM complaining if their profits increase, do you? So why should we shy away from decreasing immigration in order to increase OUR wages/profits?

No offense, but try thinking for yourself, instead of letting CorpGovMedia propaganda be your sole input of ideas. It wouldn't hurt if you read and considered carefully the ideas others are throwing at you on this thread.....

[Taeger]

51. TONS of working poor

We have plenty of poor people in this nation. We have no need to import them. Without the "extra help" wages would rise. Rising wages would draw Americans from other parts of the nation. The market would work as it's SUPPOSED TO.

All this open-borders stuff is business propaganda. The supply of unlimited illegals keeps wages low and keeps poor people in America from benefiting from demands in the labor market.

The source of Mexican poverty lies IN MEXICO. They need to take this up with THEIR GOVERNMENT. We have a hard enough time trying to get social justice from OUR OWN government without external interference.

[cryofan]

56. CorpGovMedia wants "Race to the Bottom". We workers want "Race to the Top"

Instead of immigration and outsourcing causing a race to the bottom, where wages dropping causes prices dropping, what we need is protectionist and anti-immigration policies that cause a "Race to the Top" where a scarcity of labor causes rising wages.

[denverbill]

54. Adam Smith knew as much 400 years ago.

"Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations

[Rabrrrrrr]

65. I'd like for the republicans and freeps and rightwingers

to read some Adam Smith.

[blondeatlast]

66. I do--I didn't say I APPROVED of their exploitation.

I just got a warning for a milder personal attack than that "thinking for yourself" line, but I'll let this one pass. Just don't call me a corporate shill based on a single post--if you think I don't "think for myself, I suggest you search my posts.

Sheesh, friend--I'm an anti-NAFTA Kucinich supporter, but I actually have friends who crossed the border illegally, and I don't want them to have to go back. They are hard-working taxpayers that live next door and a damn sight nicer than the rednecks who populate the neighborhood. I help them learn English, they help me practice Spanish.

By the way, my hubby is a LEGAL immigrant from India.

I want to see the demand for them dry up by going after the CORPORATE exploiters and the coyotes, not the workers.

And I truly see this as a RACE issue--if they were coming from Canada, no problem. Besides, if they were, we'd have universal healthcare by now!

[JPace]

53. I was at the grocery store yesterday

and behind the checkout stand was a Mexican
lady being taught by another Mexican lady to
use the cash register. They spoke constantly
in Spanish and when I asked a question about
check cashing the new lady could not understand
what I was asking.

Since when is being a grocery clerk become an
undesirable job for Americans? We live in the
mountains in NC and there are limited numbers
of Mexican workers here but have been increasing
rapidly the last few years. We have also lost
21 manufacturing plants and 4,500 jobs in the
last year as they flee overseas. There are lots
of unemployed here yet they hire Mexican workers
for retail now.

This does not look good for American workers.

[Taeger]

55. Bingo

We have plenty of poor folk already. There is no need to import more.

[resist]

60. So we've just forgotten the Statue of Liberty?

Of course we were all immigrants at one point, and I suspect the current residents, ie native americans, thought it was getting pretty out of hand. But suddenly we've all become the DAR and want to keep everyone else out. Then we might as well all leave because our current immigration policies mock the most beautiful words ever written about our country - give me your tired, your poor . . . .

Odd, isn't it, that the French people understood so much better than anyone else wht this fledging democracy was supposed to be about.

[Taeger]

62. She's still there

Odd, isn't it, that the French people understood so much better than anyone else wht this fledging democracy was supposed to be about.

Yeah, France is the global haven of immigrants. :puke:

We simply chose to install Lady Liberty near Ellis Island. It was supposed to symbolize LIBERTY, hence the name. If what you imply is true, it would be called "The Statue of Immigration".

Yes, it was the first thing that immigrants arriving on ships saw. These days, they see the airport first. It doesn't figure.

We will keep accepting LEGAL immigrants. It's the ILLEGAL immigrants that we're having trouble with.

[blondeatlast]

67. Based on this thread, the "New Colossus" poem excerpt would read:

Give me your tired, your poor, Anglo-Saxons

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free unless they cross the Southern border; they are used to hideous levels of pollution

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore as long as they are Anglo and speak English

Give these, the tempest-tossed, to me, but send those damn Mexicans to Wal-Mart to clean up. At night. So I don't have to hear them babble about me in a language I don't understand.

Please note the DEEP, dark SARCASM.

I despise the racism I see in this thread, but I grew up in a farming community in Arizona, and I'm all too familiar with the attitude.

[cryofan]

76. once again, race card trumps the welfare of, and the will of, Americans

As long as the people crashing our borders, thus breaking our laws and lowering our wages, are darker than the largest ethnic groups of Americans (whites), then certain people and lobbies and special interests (most of whom have personal monetary considerations at heart) will use white guilt to justify the third-worldification of America.

[Gringo]

78. It has nothing to do with race.

Immigrants have been a great asset to our country. There is a limit to what we can absorb without adverse effects on wages and cultural conflicts due to poor assimilation.

My wife is Japanese, and we raise our kids fully bilingual & bicultural, but I'll be damned if you'll ever see my kid or my wife working at a store, getting irked at the customers who have the nerve to not speak Japanese.

That is the state of things here in Miami. I speak some spanish, so I do fine, but it should not be INCUMBENT upon me to learn spanish to live in a city in America.

[ldoolin]

87. This is so typical

The old "racism" name calling.

*What* racism?

Personally, I don't want to see any more immigration into the U.S. at all, and this should be done in conjunction with fully funding global family planning, and unionization and global minimum wage drives in the entire third world - but - if we must have any immigration into the U.S. at all I'd prefer that none of it at all be from western Europe.

There, is that P.C. enough for you? This issue has nothing to do with race, it's a labor issue and an environmental/overpopulation issue.

[Gringo]

77. DAR!?! This is hardly about snobbishness or breeding...

It's about keeping our wages and standard of living at a decent level. Hasn't the continuing 25-year slide been enough? Or maybe you're one of the 20% that'sd doing better. I'm not. I have to work harder & longert for less than my Dad did. Unchecked immigration only makes that worse. It's simple supply & demand. Huge labor supplies equal low wages. Very few of us are in favor of a Pat Buchanan-style all-out ban on immigration, but 1 million legal and a half-million illegal immigrants is too damn many! Also, this is no longer an unspoiled, mostly emptyt continent as it was when the statue was built. Our cities teem with people and sting with detritus as much as the third world. Have you been to Los Angeles lately?

[ldoolin]

85. The U.S. population in the 1800s wasn't...

270 million plus!!!

We have to stop the madness at some point. Both the U.S. and the world population are too high.

[liberalcapitalist]

69. my "other" answer

I support reducing/ eliminating illegal immigration, and perhaps limiting legal immigration in the interests of protecting American jobs and promoting higher wages for American workers. However, I do not support any hostile deportation plans. I think we should work to curb illegal immigration first and foremost by addressing the plight of Mexican nationals and other third-world immigrants in their native lands.

[solinvictus]

75. Seal the border

No H1B's, no illegals, and a complete moratorium on all immigration. We're in a huge recession that's not getting any better. If we don't protect our own job markets, we're screwed.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Make the USA a big Gated Community

But who will operate the leaf blowers?

And who will take care of the children?

[ldoolin]

86. Good websites

And not a one of them is right-wing or racist:

www.susps.org - Sierra Club members should make a point to visit that one
www.npg.org - best site, read their position papers and newsletters online
www.balance.org
www.carryingcapacity.org
www.sprawlcity.com
www.cap-s.org - this one's especially for Californians
www.ecofuture.org - great general environmentalist site with lots of overpopulation info

This is a *liberal* issue. Let the right wing have the Cato Institute's open borders agenda. It's a sure loser.

[cryofan]

90. yes, stopping mass immigration is a LIBERAL issue

Stopping mass immigration brings up American wages, it helps the environment, it forces 3rd world/latin american oligarchies to deal with their poor instead of foisting them off on us, and it eases govt deficits.

[fortyfeetunder]

89. "reverse immigration"

Think it would be any easier for us to emigrate to another country as easy as it is the other way?

[DjTj]

91. I am aghast at the reponses to this post...

...and I'll need time to digest it all.

I am a member of an immigrant family, born 3 years after my parents legally immigrated to America. However, I know many immigrants who made it in this country by illegal means, and I would never support deportation for them.

Without having time to think this through, my general thoughts are this: The biggest problem for American labor today is not illegal immigrants taking their jobs, it is jobs moving overseas. Instead of giving people H-1B's or using guestworker programs that train immigrants and then send them back to their home countries, we should embrace immigrant professionals and give them green cards to live in the United States. That is how my parents became citizens, and it is the way America has been built since the large waves of immigration began a century ago. When we train people and send them back to India, the jobs will follow them.

We need greater border security. Illegal immigration will always be a reality, but we should make it as difficult as possible. Only those immigrants that have a very good reason to get out of their home countries that are willing to work hard should be able to immigrate illegally. Increased border security will make sure that more immigrants come to America wanting to be Americans.

Once illegals are in the country, they generally will manage to find some way to legalize their status. Whether through marriage, forged documents, or some form of sponsorship, there are many avenues to legalization. There is no need for amnesty programs, and there is no need to go on a witch hunt kicking these people out. These are wasted resources. The vast majority of our efforts need to be focused on protecting our borders. Once they're in the country I think I would support punishing the corporations that hire them and certainly deporting them if they are found, but this shouldn't be the emphasis of the INS.

...I've been trying to formulate a clear policy on this for a little while now. I think it's the key to making Asians and/or Latinos a greater political force in this country. Somebody needs to stand up for these groups that are too often left out of the race debate.

[flaminbats]

92. Clearly most of us want legal immigration...

and most of us would like to end illegal immigration. The real question is how can public policy be changed to achieve this?

In a perfect world, with a perfect government doing perfect things..immigration policy would be tied to population growth not foreign aid. If numbers in the census bureau demonstrated that the death rate in the U.S. was higher than the birth rate, then the most logical policy would be to allow just enough immigrants to make up for this difference. If the two were the same or if the birth rate was higher, then immigration would only be necessary to accommodate fleeing political refugees, to reunite family members, or to makeup for critical shortages in the workforce..as found in medicine or in teaching.

A perfect immigration policy would also take in equal amounts of immigrants from each race, gender, income, religion, and continent. But a corrupt policy would hurt those who immigrate here, those who were born here, and those who control such policy.