Am I dreaming? Lou Dobbs is destroying the FAIR spokesman live

[Newsjock]

I wish I was taping this -- I'll have to capture the repeat.

Lou is detroying every one of FAIR's claims that Lou is misreporting about illegal aliens and outsourcing.

It shocks me to say this, but: Go CNN.

[buycitgo]

1. I just taped it......haven't listened

peter hart just took it, laughing weakly at the very end.

curious to see what comes out on tape

FAIR is one of the few places to get another view of the propaganda wing of the government......the entire media

this doesn't bode well for their cred, if you're correct

[kiahzero]

2. Huh?

Isn't FAIR one of the better media accuracy groups?

[Elidor]

3. Some detail would be appreciated

Did Dobbs cite chapter and verse or just throw facts and figures? I don't watch Dobbs but I read FAIR's Extra and consider them highly credible, so a brief breakdown would be much appreciated, thanks.

[buycitgo]

4. agreed,,,,,no chance to watch now....have to go

transcripts will be up at some point, though

[Peachhead22]

6. What's FAIR?

Pardon my ignorance on the subject, but what is "FAIR"? And please don't say it's the word after "fart" in the dictionary. :)

[thinkingwoman]

10. I'll give it a try

I'm going on memory here so bear with me. And I want to say up front that I consider FAIR highly credible as well, but in the end I had to go with Dobbs on this one.

Dobbs was methodical. He cited chapter and verse and used the FAIR director's own words against him.

Dobbs had his people count the number of guests (pro and con giving illegal immigrants a break) he'd put on in the month cited by FAIR and came up with a different result. Dobbs put up his list and the FAIR guy was SPEECHLESS. Either he didn't have his list with him or he knew it was wrong.

Dobbs also threw facts and figures but he sourced ALL of them. Again, the FAIR guy was speechless and empty handed.

Sorry, but that's the best I can do. Wish I'd taken notes.

[ldoolin]

5. I'm guessing

...that this isn't FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) but FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform) that the above poster is referring to.

www.fair.org is the former
www.fairus.org is the latter

[Peachhead22]

8. Wow

That was quick. Answering before I even hit "post message" on the question. :)

[thinkingwoman]

11. no it's the reporting one

It was Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting.

[ldoolin]

14. OK thanks

I didn't see it but guessed it might be the other FAIR since the topic was immigration. My bad.

[thinkingwoman]

19. hey no problem

I'm just excited that I had the answer (lol). Usually I'm the one late to the party here saying "huh?"

[papau]

7. Fair is a solid group - Fair's "Dobbs" below - what was found incorrect?

http://www.fair.org/extra/0402/dobbs.html

Dobbs' Choice

CNN host picks immigration as his ax to grind

By Peter Hart

<snip>The selection of topics, the slanted sourcing and the occasionally inaccurate or incomplete information conveyed on the program all seemed calculated to convince the viewer that the U.S. is in the midst of a crisis that is, according to Dobbs, "changing the very nature of this country" (9/30/03). The title of a series on immigration, "Broken Borders," conveyed Dobbs' political position; immigrants were also routinely featured on his show's regular "Great American Giveaway" segment. <snip>

Skewed guestlist
Immigrant advocacy groups, by comparison, made a total of four appearances in the month, along with two guests from the Cato Institute, which takes a libertarian position on immigration.

Dubious stats

A lopsided guest list wasn't the only problem. In a report (10/30/03) on the economic impact of immigration, CNN correspondent Lisa Sylvester claimed that "researchers at the National Academy of Science concluded that while the gains to the U.S. economy due to immigration could be as high as $10 billion, the cost is higher--as much as $20 billion."....But that's not what the 1997 NAS study found. The researchers estimated that immigration provided a net gain for the U.S. gross domestic product of between $1 billion and $10 billion (see New York Times, 5/18/97)--in other words, that the benefits outweighed the costs. The $20 billion "cost" factoid was advanced by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (press release, 5/19/97), which extrapolated on a set of annual estimates in the NAS report, arguing there is "a total cost to those taxpayers of $15 to $20 billion dollars, much higher than the economic benefits." <snip>

Minutes later, CNN correspondent Bill Tucker said of incarcerated noncitizens: "And while they were in prison, you'd think we'd identify which ones are illegal aliens. We don't." Tucker added that "one-third of the people in federal prisons are not United States citizens. Incredibly, there's no system currently in place to identify how many of those prisoners are also illegal aliens." He finished his report that night by telling Dobbs that there was "no way to know whether they're illegal or not." In other words, Dobbs' claim that one-third of federal prisoners were "illegal aliens" was made up out of thin air. <snip>

[Taeger]

15. FAIR is UNFAIR!!!!

The title of a series on immigration, "Broken Borders," conveyed Dobbs' political position; immigrants were also routinely featured on his show's regular "Great American Giveaway" segment.

They are fundamentally shirking the point of Dobbs' "Broken Borders" reports. He is not addressing LEGAL immigrants. He is addressing ILLEGAL immigrants.

This is the common ploy by ... WHOEVER ... to make advocates for securing borders and DEPORTING illegal residents look xenophobic and un-American. There are indeed people out there who believe that we should close the borders COMPLETELY, but they are few. Mostly, people just want to stop the flow of illegals.

Yes, illegals are chasing opportunity. I cannot blame them for that. But they ARE breaking a myriad of laws to do it. In some parts, constant law breakers are referred to as "criminals."



The researchers estimated that immigration provided a net gain for the U.S. gross domestic product of between $1 billion and $10 billion (see New York Times, 5/18/97)--in other words, that the benefits outweighed the costs. The $20 billion "cost" factoid was advanced by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (press release, 5/19/97), which extrapolated on a set of annual estimates in the NAS report, arguing there is "a total cost to those taxpayers of $15 to $20 billion dollars, much higher than the economic benefits."

Really, they added $15 to $20 billion to the GDP. Wow. And exactly WHO benefits from that gain in GDP. It's definitely NOT the Americans who are displaced, nor is it their fellow workers who's wages are depressed by the unlimited source of servile labor.

Furthermore, isn't it true that Americans doing those jobs would add EVEN MORE to the GDP since they don't work for slave wages AND they spend the money in their community instead of sending it to a foreign country in "remittance".

I don't think FAIR is being fair. I think they are taking a policy position as opposed to simply evaluating journalists.

As Lou Dobbs pointed out, he has plenty of folks on the show to represent the other side. With respect, Lou Dobbs really ISN'T doing journalism. He's doing a blend of editorialism and journalism. Unlike others who claim to do the same genre (Bill O'Reilly) he doesn't bully his guests. He presents them with evidence and data. He challenges their position. He doesn't have on lighweight guests. He invites congressman and industry spoke-persons on his show. They are so used to getting a COMPLETE pass on what they say that they simply aren't prepared to deal with Lou.

Lou Dobbs is an American hero. He's pointing out the things that are happening to destroy the lower and middle class persons in this country. I could care less if he is Republican or Democrat, he's doing America a great service by getting these issues out in the open.

[papau]

20. I agree Lou is on the right side - but Fair has not been shown to be

wrong.

And Dobbs has been shown by Fair to use a bit of "spin".

The immigration adding to total GDP may very well hide a decrease in average GDP per person. And I have not read the study so the illegal point may be something else that Fair's report does not go into enough detail about.

But my only point is that lies on MSNBC and FOX are expected - while Fair has never "lied" - granted fact selection that is limited is in effect a partial truth which is a lie, but this piece seems very clear that all Fair is chasing is a fair debate - Fair is not on the side of more "illegals", and is not trying to push lies as facts.

:-)

[Taeger]

9. I taped it.

It's in standard MPEG-2 off a DVD recorder. Would you like me to transcode it for you??? I'll have to find the right tools and it would take a while.

[theoceansnerves]

12. hmm

i think it was pretty even. i certainly wouldn't say dobbs destroyed him. they both made their points. i will say maybe i'm biased because i don't like lou dobbs at all. but at least he doesn't fly off the handle and scream and yell like o'reilly.

[Taeger]

17. After reading ...

It looks like Lou has blurred between illegals and legal immigrants at time. That isn't right. But these could be instances when Lou simply mis-spoke.

There issue has been heavily influenced by PC. We our brow-beaten into "talking nice" about illegal aliens because they are "desperate" or at risk. So a journalist has to watch his Ps and Qs. Overall, I think that Dobbs has done an outstanding job.

BTW, not ALL illegal immigrants are desperate. Sometimes they are just trying to find a better paying job.

When I want a better paying job, I don't sneak into the bank and pretend to be a teller. Illegals are ALL committing a crime for the sake of financial gain. Furthermore, they habitually engage in identity fraud, violation of zoning ordinances and do NOT pay taxes. They receive services (including education) but do not pay a fair share of property taxes. They depress the wages for others in the community and drive UP rents.

A debate about increasing the number of LEGAL immigration spots is certainly relevant. A debate over giving amnesty in return for a term of military service (and cultural integration) is appropriate. But don't tell me I'm being xenophobic or cruel for suggesting that people enter and leave my nation LEGALLY.

If not, you might find me in your home someday eating your food and watching your TV. When told I shouldn't be there, I'll simply respond "Hey I cleaned the kitchen and washed the windows, I'm an overall benefit to your household. Just make space for me and my kids. BTW, we're out of toilet paper" When you tell me it doesn't matter because I wasn't invited, I'll just laugh.

[Ksec]

13. Dobbs has been on our side lately

Good to hear we actually have one media player over here.

[cryofan]

16. OK, let's see if I understand what is going on here

Dobbs is talking to a person from FAIR (the media watchdog) and NOT from FAIR (the anti-mass immigration organization).

The FAIR spokesperson is saying that Dobbs has been reporting on immigration inaccurately or poorly or misleadingly.

Dobbs countered with massive citation to show that he had indeed been reporting accurately.

Well, I believe Dobbs. The immigration scandal (both legal and illegal) has been the white elephant in the room for decades in this country. FAIR (the media watchdog) only attacks reporting that is politically incorrect. They do not report on politically correct reporting, and Dobbs is being VERY politically incorrect with his expose of the mass immigration scandal.

BTW, see www.steinreport.com for great reporting on FAIR (the anti amss immigration group).

[Taeger]

18. Actually

I think Dobbs is being factually correct but politically incorrect (PC).

I think our society has entirely revolted against PC. It was a big fraud and a reactionary movement of the far left to restrict speech that they didn't like (like banning smoking IN BARS!!!).