Would you consider this a liberal or conservative stance?

[ButterflyBlood]

I don't think gender should be taken into account in auto insurance. Basically a male and female, all other things being equal, should pay the same. Also I'm leaning toward not taking maritial status into account too.

[markbark]

1. The Stats back it up

Actuarial data running back for DECADES point out that unmarried males, on average, will cost insurance companies more money in claims, therefore they must pay more in premiums. QED



--MAB

[TahitiNut]

21. "on average"??

Gee, I love "statistical" language.

Please, tell me, is this "on average" based on per capita? per year? per miles driven? some weighted combination?

How many other population stratifications were analyzed? Height? Hair color? Eyesight? Employment status/history? Education attainment?

Are there any accompanying statistical analyses indicating number and gender of passengers (if any)?

[gpandas]

25. sure there are , thats how insurace companies operate...

why not look at it as one gender gets a discount because they are historically shown to be safer drivers and don't speed, drive intoxicated,tailgate, etc as much as another gender. personally i think this will become moot, because more and more female drivers seem to be speeding, driving agressively, and generally breaking traffic rules, and their rate will rise to males rate. insurance companies are in this for money only, they don't care about equality-it's not in the numbers

[NewJeffCT]

28. they get around it

They will not say it is based on "race" per se. They will say that people living in X neighborhood (a predominately minority one) have a higher rate of - car accidents, certain health problems, etc. They will not say it is because of minorities living there, they will say it is because the conditions there lead to these problems. And, that is at least partially true...

actuaries run *everything* through their tables - ethnic background (one group may be more prone to certain diseases, ailments), religion (certain religions may eat not eat certain foods), height, weight, sex, marital status, etc.

[Mattforclark]

2. Stats also back up that African Americans have a higher chance

of getting sickle cell anemia. So should they pay more health insurance?

[ButterflyBlood]

3. yep, that's mostly my logic

n/t

[Mattforclark]

6. There are so many things like that

that apply to so many different groups of people, that the word "insurance" really stops applying. And as genetic testing that shows what diseases we are all susceptible to grows more common, this will only be accentuated.

[markbark]

8. bad analogy....

...sickle cell anemia. So should they pay more health insurance


I've never heard someone say "Hey, watch me get a genetic blood disease"

I've had plenty of experience (some of it was ME talking) where someone behind the wheel of a car said "Hey, watch THIS" with disastrous results


With the exception of smoking and a lousy diet, health insurance claims aren't as self inflicted.

--MAB

<edited for stupid spelling errors ;) >

[Mattforclark]

11. It's not my fault

that I am part of a group that tends to be more reckless than other groups.

Likewise, it's not the fault of people who have genetic susceptability to diseases that they have such susceptability.

"I've never heard someone say "Hey, watch me get a genetic blood disease"

I've had plenty of experience (some of it was ME talking) where someone behind the wheel of a car said "Hey, watch THIS" with disastrous results"

You illustrate a choice on the level of the individual, and then apply it to a larger group.

[strategery blunder]

16. Would you rather have an insurance co. backseat driver?

Yes, it is unfair that you have to pay more because of the recklessness of others, but the insurance companies don't actually watch you drive. If they could, they could recognize that you do not deserve the 'risky' categorization. But they have only claims data, and they must use some of it in the aggregate to be economically viable.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. they wouldn't go bankrupt if they had to charge men and women the same

and if all companies were required to, it wouldn't cause any unfair advantages.

[Mattforclark]

20. mmmm

"Yes, it is unfair that you have to pay more because of the recklessness of others"

That wasn't what I was arguing. I was arguing that it is unfair that I have to pay more than other non-reckless people to finance the recklessness of others.

If it were possible to charge people every time they made a "reckless" choice, I would support that, though.

[markbark]

24. Life Ain't Fair...

and you are right that it's not your fault that drivers in your age/gender group tent to generate more claims.

Perhaps the solution is to treat car insurance like life insurance?
We've all seen those ads on late night TV for the life insurance policies for folks over 65 with "no medical questions asked" on the application. The catch there is that if you die in the first few years of the policy, you get basically bupkus back in claims. A "New Driver" policy could work the same way. Pay your premiums, but if you have a claim in the first few years of your policy, you only get back the premium paid to date. Lower cost for everyone and the good drivers aren't subsidizing the 17 year old idiot who plows daddy's Beemer into a minivan generating a $250,000 claim.

..... now all we have to do is get the insurance companies on board! <grin>

--MAB

[NewJeffCT]

29. well, not just blacks with sickle cell

I remember when my wife was pregnant and we were going through the lists of tests should could get and there was one that was only recommended if you were of Jewish descent or from a certain part of the Middle East, I think.

And, I am sure other ethnic groups are more prone to other diseases - osteoperosis (sp?) is more common among white & Asian women than it is among blacks.

[MAlibdem]

4. what about age?

Younger drivers vs older ones?

I get KILLED on auto insurance bills b/c they are EXTREME for teenagers.

[doni_georgia]

23. Again it's because of the stats, but what about elderly drivers

they're the worst! Do rates go up when drivers hit a certain age, or would that be ageism??

[freetobegay]

5. This pisses me off!

I see both points as being valid! So what do i do?
:shrug:

[wuushew]

7. Gender differences are appropriate in this case

The issurance companies are making the correct assumption that two populations (male, females) have statistically significant differernces in risk. If these two groups were combined the low risk group would be paying higher premiums and the higher risk group would be undercharged.

This goes against the basic tenet of issurance which is to accurately charge an individual for his annual level of risk, and to provide the lump sum of cash of which an individual would not pocess after an accident.

[sangh0]

9. IMO, you misunderstand the role of insurance

Insurance is meant to spread risk, so the fact that high-risk individuals pay the same as low-risk individuals is not a bug, it's a feature.

That is EXACTLY how insurance is supposed to work. Insurance is not a savings plan for those who will likely end up needing money in the future. Insurance is DESIGNED TO SPREAD RISK.

[Dan-W]

10. I'll be paying more for car insurance.

I was divorced last year. My rates will go up. Single males are involved in more accidents than married males, or females who are single or married.... it is a statistical fact.

If you ran an insurance business... what would you do?
-Dw

[Mattforclark]

12. There's only one thing you can do, because you are competing with other

insurers. Assume group A and group B have the same number of people, and group A has risk = 2 and group B has risk = 1.

If I start an insurance business that charges people from both groups 1.5, the only business I am going to get is from group A, because people from group B would go to my competitors instead, so I would go out of business.

So you have to talk about making it illegal (or not worth the cost), not about encouraging insurance companies not to do it.

[ButterflyBlood]

13. I think the law should prohibit

North Dakota (where my auto insurance is) does. There a male and female with all things equal pay the same.

[progressiveBadger]

15. I think the insurance business is regulated enough

If that type of law went into effect, a majority of people, especially GOOD drivers, will see rate increases.

[ButterflyBlood]

17. well being against business regulation is conservative

that's why I was asking. Because ND is a pretty conservative state, so I was wondering if this would be left or right. Either way I still hold to it though.

[progressiveBadger]

14. Exactly

It is THEIR business. If you don't like the reasons for rate increases, go with another company. For instance, some auto insurance companies base your rate on your credit. Some don't. Insurance is definitely not a monopoly.

[Dan-W]

22. I've been driving since the late 60's.

I've been with many (car) insurance companies. I understand that I have not been dealing with a monopoly; that's why I've shopped around.
My point is that in NH, no matter what Company you insure with, you will pay a higher rate as a single male. Someone mentioned "credit rating". I've been oblivious to that because I've always payed my biils on time.

[seabeyond]

18. its a liberal stance

why should i pay your high risk when i dont benefit from it, individual, me me me ....conservative

all pool in a whole, liberal

[Jim__]

26. Good topic.

Personally, I wouldn't trouble myself over whether a particular position is conservative or liberal.

There are any number of ways to aggregate data. I worked with someone who had worked as an actuary for an insurance company. Not surprisingly, insurance companies aggregate data in ways that prove most beneficial to them

For instance, in the case of higher accident rates for single males - what is the distribution of accidents? Do, say, 75% of single males NOT have a higher than average accident rate and it's the multiple accidents of the other 25% that cause the higher average rate? If so, the insurance companies could factor that into their computations. Do single males who have driven for 2 years without an accident have a lower average rate? Again, the insurance companies aggregate data so that it is most beneficial to them.

Since most states mandate car insurance,I believe they should also have some control over rates, and, how high risk groups are aggregated.

[pnb]

27. First, it is neither conservative nor liberal

Not all things are defined by a political ideology.

Also, there is nothing wrong with taking certain features into account in auto insurance...in fact, it is kind of the point. It can sometimes suck...I was once an under 25 year old single male paying out the ass. But certain groups are more likely to ultimately be making claims and I have no problems with those things playing a part. Besides, driving record will still be the ultimate deciding factor. A person from a low risk group with a crap driving record will still have far higher rates than a high risk group member with no accidents or offenses.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Maybe this inspired your original post - EU proposes this

and also for life insurance and pension annuities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3639801.stm

The brainchild of Anna Diamantopolou, the Commissioner for Employment and Social Affairs, it aims to ban discrimination in the supply of goods and services, including financial services.
...
According to the FSA's estimates, ignoring life expectancy in the calculation of life insurance would increase the premium payable by a woman aged 40 by 16%. However, a man's premium would fall by 8%.

While ignoring life expectancy for an annuity purchased at 60 would increase the annuity by 2% for women and reduce the annuity a man aged 60 could purchase by 3%.

For motor car insurance, young women drivers were likely to face an increase in premiums of between 10% and 30%.