"why don't you just fail?" re: vouchers

[ulysses]

A direct quote from the principal of the school in which I work, a private, Christian institution. The comment was directed at a 9-year-old African-American child on the occasion of his turning in, last Thursday, a homework sheet that had gotten somewhat folded and spindled in his book bag.

"If you're going to turn in homework like this, why do you even try? Why don't you just fail?"

To my eternal shame - this happened in front of me, in my classroom - I said nothing. I should have pissed on her leg. I did (along with the creationist science teacher, who overheard the event and who also recognizes that the owner of the school is a nutcase) help the student in cleaning out his book bag. I also accepted the homework (mine), which was done correctly.

Can someone please explain to me, again, how it is that private schools are supposed to be so much better for students, especially African-American kids? "Why don't you just fail?" This is an improvement on the great disaster that our public schools represent?

[DarkPhenyx]

1. See? This is why I don't teach.

I would have verbally snatch jerked the principal, in front of the student, defended the student loudly and harshly then made the principal apologize. Then I would have also apologized to the student.

I've been told I have an attitude problem. Personally I don't see it.

[drkedjr]

5. The movement

(read rightwingnut) to destroy public education, not only as we know it, but for all times and
to change a "free & public education" as we have experienced, is on a non-stop train wreck
that only the publicans know how to achieve.

[Wapsie B]

10. Same here.

Except that I would've backed that prinicpal up against the wall and performed my best Lee Ermey impression while defending the student.

[tom_paine]

46. You DON'T have an attitude problem, DarkPhenyx

You are a "stereotypical" Free American. You don't suffer lies and you don't suffer unfairness and you don't suffer bloated aristocrats and you can't keep silent (even if that is the prudent move) in the face of injustice.

There are damned few of us left in this nation of Imperial Subjects.

I also don't see your "attitude problem", pal. Yeah a "problem" like the Founding Fathers.

Everybody should be so lucky to have such a "problem".

:toast: :toast:

[DarkPhenyx]

75. Thank you!

*dipping head slightly in acceptance*

that may well be the best thing anyonew has said to me on this board. Maybe even in RT as well.

:)

[DrWeird]

2. I've never believed that bullshit about private schools being better.

Don't take any guff from these fucking swine.

[w13rd0]

3. They aren't better...

...they just boot or falsify the underperforming. Ask Ron Paige about Houston...

[ulysses]

7. it's why I'm here

If I have one identifiable issue these days, this is it. :)

[The Zanti Regent]

4. I heard the same crap from public school teachers

It's awfully difficult to support public schools after all the abuse I got from so-called teachers.

I lost count of all the times I was called Dummy, Stupid, Asshole and Moron.

Repeatedly told I was not college material.

BTW--I hold an MA in economics so I can't be THAT stupid!

[ulysses]

6. so you support...what?

I'm sorry for your experiences, but would you advise parents to go the route of schools run by fundamentalists who do the same shit just with less oversight?

[Sparky McGruff]

18. That's why I worry about PRIVATE schools...

I spent junior high at a "christian" school. I learned a lot, up to that point, in my public grade school classes. Yes, I had a few really lousy teachers, but at least half of them were really good.

At the private "christian" school, I had some of the worst teachers imaginable. To their credit, I also had the best US history teacher, who was an amazingly wonderful person in every way.

But, I also had to endure the biology classes taught by the woman who had been the bus driver. She was promoted to teaching Girl's PE, then biology. She was convinced that I was somehow cheating since I seemed to know all the answers (couldn't be that I'd had this material in THIRD GRADE?). Along with several other "public school" kids, I was berated in front of the class for cheating, forced to take exams with my desk in the corner, and ridiculed at every turn. She repeatedly told me in front of the entire class, in no uncertain terms, that she KNEW I was cheating, and she was by gosh going to figure it out and have me thrown out of school.

She was the worst. But, the rest of my classes were taught by an amazing collection of untrained, poorly educated, uncertified, "good christians". A few stood out as decent people, and even decent teachers. But, overall, education was an afterthought.

I learned that fundamentalist christians are just as petty, just as mean, and just as cruel as the schoolkids in the public schools. The fact that they pray in the chapel doesn't change the fact that they prey on other kids.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. Thanks for bringing this topic up.

Private schools are so over-disciplined that they destroy the human spirit for most. For others, it heightens their air of superiority and encourages intolerance.

[napi21]

11. OH, I disagree with that completely! All schiils are far to easy

on the students! What happened to respect for authority, follow the rules, do your homework correctly, and yes, call the teacher Mr. or Ms. Smith instead of Mr. Brad or Ms Shirley.

I don't believe in the physical punishment, but children need to be taught right from wrong from birth through adult.

I'm not sure when all this "don't make the kids feel bad about themselves" started, but the real world isn't that way.

I see the same thing happening in private and public schools and it's producing coddled adults who maybe do their job, but absolutely nothing more.

[ulysses]

12. what a load of crap.

Please, tell me how explicitly inviting a 9 year old boy to fail is going to produce a better worker down the line. Please.

[napi21]

13. Of course that was wrong! That's not what I meant.

I'm saying explaine what is expected of the students. Yes, it should be neat homework, not crumpled inside of a backpack.

No the Principal should not have said that to any student, but the teacher should have said, you'll have to do this homework over bacause it is not aceptable this way.

[The Screaming Icon]

14. Uptight much?

I have a college degree and am going for my master's right now. I can't tell you how many times I turned in homework on mangled sheets at all levels. I find it deplorable and utterly inhumane that you really want to chastise and fail some kid because their homework got crumpled! Good grief! Kids are not just just mini-adults. It's not that big a deal.

As for private schools: they are overrated and can choose their students. Of course they do well. And with increasing use of uniforms and Nazi disciplinary tactics in public schools, it all seems to be turning into one flaming fecal pile anyway. No child left behind!

95 percent of debate on education is conducted by smug adults who have forgotten what it means to be a child in a frighteningly authoritarian world.

"She's a good kid. Because they're all good kids. Perosnally, I don't want to know any 6-year-old who is 'serious about her academic career.'" --John Candy, Uncle Buck

[napi21]

17. Good luck to you on your Masters.

I don't know what your major is or what you pland to do after you get your Masters. If you plan on teaching, you will probably be fine. If you plan on a different career, you will understand what I mean fairly early in your career.

[cmd]

25. What a nice slap in the face to teachers!

When you have walked in my shoes for over thirty years, you will understand what I mean.

[cally]

36. That's utterly absurd

I turned in crumpled homework, lost papers, rushed through homework. I have a Masters, graduated with highest honors from UC Berkeley with a BS and MPP. One has nothing to do with the other. I now work in business and am doing very well.

Quit insulting others and being so condescending. Many of the teachers I know are utterly brilliant, did superb in school, and work horribly long hours for little pay to teach our children.

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. Expect quality

And you get quality. Expect the opposite and that's what you get. If you tolerate inferior work from students, you set them up to fail in the real world sooner or later.

While I would not have chastised the child in that way, I also would not have accepted the homework. If the problem persisted, his parents would have heard from me.

In my experience, private schools are quite good. And discipline is a lot better than drug sales or shootings in the classroom. Both of those problems are ones I fled when I left D.C.

[ulysses]

24. I did get quality.

He did the homework correctly.

[cmd]

26. Last week I bought two expensive sheets of vellum

The clerk in the store put them in a plastic bag along with some other very light weight items. It was raining that day. I did not hold the bag close to me because I didn't want to squash my expensive paper. When I got home, I discovered that rain had gotten in an destroyed my purchase. I now must assume that I am a failure!

Thank you, Uly, for accepting the child's homework. When someone has gone to the trouble to do his work correctly, a wrinkle can be overlooked.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. In the real world, that isn't enough

By tolerating an inferior result, you are setting him up to fail later.

[ulysses]

29. how???

Most 8 and 9 year old boys are slobs by nature. What would I teach this kid by sending him home with a fairly challenging sheet of homework (long division) that requires easily an hour of his evening to do and then not accepting it, even though the work is correct, because it's not in pristine condition?

Would you have me not accept the work if it were in pristine condition but incorrect? No, I'm there to teach him math, not to act as a projection of some future employer.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. The classic academic response

"I'm there to teach him math, not to act as a projection of some future employer."

I'm sure he will thank you for that later in life. He'll probably have the time, sitting at home and all.

[ulysses]

32. yes, I keep forgetting

that allowing him to turn in homework that's been folded up a bit will make him unemployable ten years from now.

:eyes:

Hogwash. Generations of American kids have turned in work that you, evidently, would not accept were you in the classroom. Most of us have somehow managed.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. then how would you suggest

teaching and enforcing a level of quality that is acceptable? I can see where this doesn't cause problems for you...and it was not a criteria for the successful completion of the work in your mind. But, at some point, you might want to consider teaching that neatness can make a ton of difference. When I write for my work...it had better be perfect...

theProdigal

[noiretextatique]

41. is "why don't you just fail?" an appropriate reponse

to a 9 year old child? i think not.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Nope

Telling him that this is unacceptable work is the appropriate response.

[noiretextatique]

43. i agree with you

no argument from me.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. not at all...I agree

sounds like an adult who belongs in ADMIN and not in the classroom. I couldn't agree more with you there. But I don't see anything wrong with explaining to the student that THIS time you will accept the work but for subsequent assignments, please turn them in on a neat sheet of paper...

I know this sounds picky, but PEOPLE ARE PICKY. It might not bother you, but someone in the future of this child's life will most likely demand work of a quality that might be a higher standard. Does that make me harsh? No, it makes me a realist.

theProdigal

[noiretextatique]

48. i have no problem with requiring neatness

i have impeccable handwriting because my third grade teacher was such a stickler. i have a problem with adults who lack self-control and bully people (including children).

[ProdigalJunkMail]

52. agreed...

the Administrator handled it entirely incorrectly...thus my comment about him NOT being in the classroom!

Cheers!
theProdigal

[ulysses]

47. do it when they're ready.

Once a kid's in junior high, I can see the value in requiring a certain appearance in schoolwork. They're ready for it then, and *they're* able to see the value too. A nine-year-old child generally has other things going on upstairs that need to take precedence, like laying in the foundation of knowledge. Their gross motor functions generally just aren't very well developed at that age, particularly with boys, and requiring neatness and organization at the level that we'd require it of a 25-year-old in the workplace is unreasonable.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. It is too late by high school

Good habits need to be reinforced all along the way.

[ulysses]

54. good habits within reason.

The student in question has lately acquired a habit, which he just likes doing because he thinks it's cool, of barely holding his pencil when he writes, so that his work is illegible. That I erase and make him do over because he knows better and is capable of better. To expect someone his age to never fold, bend or spindle a piece of paper that he takes home with him, though, is not reasonable.

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. Funny, we did it in school

Homework had to be turned in neat and not folded up or balled up.

Again, expectations...

[ulysses]

73. and a lot of us

turned in material that wasn't pristine - as I say, we've somehow done ok.

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. The world is more competitive

We compete on a world stage now.

[ulysses]

77. that's quite true.

Thus my focus, as a teacher, on academics.

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. Work doesn't focus just on academics

Presentation, timeliness, etc. all matter. Teaching a child that the right answer can be delivered in the wrong way is foolish.

[ulysses]

79. what's foolish

is to reject a piece of hard-won work because a child does not adhere exactly to form. What's foolish is to stifle any fledgling sense of accomplishment in what is, for many, a difficult subject because a goddamned piece of paper gets folded in a book bag.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Too bad, but that is what goes on in the real world

To teach kids Ivory Tower fantasies is to leave them unprepared for the real world.

As for sense of accomplishment, having managed dozens of staffers in my career, I would say it would be easy to use that as a "teachable moment." To praise the work and to point out that the form is unacceptable. That the form would be unacceptable in the work world and that the student is fully capable of doing better.

[ulysses]

82. are your staffers nine years old?

This business model applied to elementary school stuff is insane. I'm sure that your actions are appropriate to your employees. They would not be appropriate to my students.

Also, I think your use of the phrase "real world" is hilarious. I assure you that my classroom is as much the "real world" as is your office.

[DrWeird]

83. I feel compelled to remind you

of how this poster thinks of special needs children.

[ulysses]

84. I hadn't forgotten.

:) I really want to follow this "schools should follow a business model" thing to its logical conclusion.

[Kool Kitty]

57. Yes, good habits need to be taught and reinforced.

But a personal attack on a child is completely uncalled-for. it wouldn't hurt to teach a little self-esteem.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. a nine year old IS capable of that level of work

and you don't have to beat them about the head to get them to understand. Do you have to be an ass about it with a Zero Tolerance policy? No. But encouraging the better work is the point.

And by the way, if you are waiting for them to not have other things on their minds before asking for better work presentation, you better just never count on it...especially with boys.

theProdigal

[ulysses]

55. heh

And by the way, if you are waiting for them to not have other things on their minds before asking for better work presentation, you better just never count on it...especially with boys.

Adolescent hormones work in our favor, actually - it doesn't take too many "slob" comments from girls to make a kid see some value in organization. :)

Encourage neater work, sure, but how much time do you spend on appearance when the kid's struggling with remainders?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

64. good point...

Like I said...encourage. It is important to understand that there is a level of expectation not just on the answer but also on the presentation. You don't have to fail or reject them because of not being neat...but they REALLY need to learn it...but you know that.

theProdigal

[enki23]

53. my assignments were always sloppy as hell

covered with scrawls and doodles with ink blots from broken pens, the paper folded, crumpled, and covered with sometimes-unidentifiable stains. of course, i was a kid. i also didn't brush my hair or wear matching socks.

proper appearance is the cardinal virtue of the uninspired.

[ulysses]

56. thus your loser existence now, right?

;-)

[enki23]

59. that's for sure

though, i wish i could sit around at home more...

as for the original issue though... anyone who can say that to a child under their care has absolutely no business working with children.

[ulysses]

61. get crazy with the Cheez Whiz

How's school going?

[enki23]

62. well enough

looking at my PhD program next. i'm told i can pretty much go wherever i choose. (side effect of being such a sloppy bastard? you make the call.) looking into a pharmacology program, likely in seattle, with the intention of doing cancer research.

[enki23]

65. seems your life is keeping things interesting as well

god bless administrative idiots, christian school and otherwise.

[ulysses]

72. true enough.

:D

[noiretextatique]

69. i work with a lot of morans

in a government agency. they screw up constantly, and they still get paid every month. not that different in the private sector either (that's why i stay employed as a consultant) :7
it is a complete myth that only "the best" can acheive and be 'successful.'
your average idiot (that fellow in the white house comes to mind) can do just fine. i think it's silly to hold all children to some inflexible standard of 'neatness,' for example, while ignoring the quality of their work.
but of course, there are many jobs for people who conform to "the rules" without having the ability to think.

[noiretextatique]

34. that woman had no business speaking to a 9 year old child like that

if she had a problem with the condition of his homework, she should have admonished him for THAT. asking "why don't you just fail" (in front of the entire class) is not a recipe for success.
if she did that to my child...it would be the last time she ever did it to any child.

[cally]

38. See my post above

I now work in business and do well. I'm known as the person who is one the best at the final review and edit of reports because I ensure quality. In consulting, only the most senior and experienced folks do this because it is so important to send out accurate, quality work. But as a child, I constantly turned in crumpled work. Wrote papers where I was too lazy to edit and spell check. I was a child and now I'm an adult and my behavior is different.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. OK and I got that you did not want the kid publicly berated BUT

if he performed the academic part correctly, then he LIVED up to the contract of doing his homework.

I think it is a disservice to change the terms of the deal after the kid has performed. If ironing one's homework is a requirement then make that clear up front.

[ulysses]

58. right.

:thumbsup:

[Wonk]

20. Nice spelling and grammar there, and elsewhere in this thread too. I guess

yours was too easy, if they let you graduate.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Online grammar and spelling

Is typically handled under hasty posting situations. To criticize such is to undermine your argument.

[Ysabel]

66. ick...n/t...

[ulysses]

9. kick

:kick:

[keep_left]

15. the real goal of vouchers is largely unspoken...

It's to destroy not just public education, but also labor organizing--by attacking possibly the most successful labor organization in the US today, the teachers' union. The other goal which dovetails nicely with this is their desire to create a completely at-will employment system, so that there will be no academic freedom, and then they can just ram fundie education down everyone's throat. If you dissent, you're fired with no recourse to a grievance process, and so you go along with cr@p like "the Earth is 6000 years old; the Bible says so, and that's that" because you're homeless otherwise.

A site I recommend DUers visit: http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/

It outlines a lot of what these people are up to.

[KG]

16. the great fallacy, that private schools are somehow 'better'

why people just accept that as a given, i'll never understand.

[DianeG5385]

19. Why do you work there

and perpetuate this crud????

[ulysses]

23. I'd been out of work for nine months

when I took the job. I'll only be there for another five weeks if I can help it.

[buddhamama]

28. heh-

as i see it, is the lack of oversight.

i attended private schools for my education,
my son however attends public school. i can compare, and in the end
i do not see much of a difference, except, as i said above, the oversight or regulations.

in high school there were one or two teachers who acted irrationally,
and lashed out at students inappropriately. there is never, ever, a good 'reason' to disrespect a student in this, or any manner. never. it is unacceptable.

i am frustrated daily by our educational system.

it is not the fault of public school's that our children are not learning. It is the fault of the Nation that chooses to invest its money in weapons/war, bogus tax-cuts that benefit few,...

my biggest gripe with the educational system in our country,
and the proponents of voucher's are part of the problem,
is the Clone mentality that has entered our classrooms.
Instead of valuing the individual and, teaching to their strengths and weaknesses, we expect children to learn, behave etc etc exactly the same.

Now, voucher supporters will tell ya' that private schools are better because of smaller classrooms, *cough* better teachers, higher expectations blah blah blah.

The public school system can do the same IF, we are willing to invest in our public schools. We need more schools, more teachers and more flexibility, not less.

Again, i have attended private school and, it was the individuality and wider berth private schools are given in curriculum, time-line,
oversight that made the difference.

[bluestateguy]

31. I have had public school teachers with equally bad attitudes

A gentle reminder that homework should be turned in neatly would have sufficed.

Some adults, however, get their rocks off on Dr. Laura style shame therapy.

[ulysses]

33. so have I.

My point is not that p.s. teachers are saints, but that private schools are not the cure for the problems in education. imho, the one that I work in is actively dangerous.

[MissB]

35. I hope you're able to find a different job

In another post in this thread, you said you hoped you would only have 5 more weeks at this school. Does that mean you're looking at a different school?

I hope you get out of there!

[ulysses]

37. I interviewed Saturday

with the Atlanta Public Schools. Supposed to find out May 1. :)

[LoZoccolo]

44. What her phone number?

:)

[ulysses]

49. LOL!

Wanna enroll? :evilgrin:

[LoZoccolo]

63. Bwahahahaha!

"Yes, I'm wondering, my son turns in his homework all messy; I'm wondering if this is the kind of place where you could slap him around a bit and ask him why he doesn't just fail instead of turning it in like that...is this the kind of place where you could do that for my kid?"

[geniph]

60. I work for a large public school district

(I'm a network manager, not a teacher). The big difference I see in something like this is the potential repercussions. In a public school district, there are more avenues for parent complaints. In our district, if a principal was stupid enough to say something like that (and it was a stupid and unkind thing to say, and a bad way to motivate a student), the child's parent could go to the school board, to the superintendent, and in the last resort, run for the school board themself to try to effect change. Believe me, complaints made to the superintendent or to the board - particularly in a public board meeting - are taken very seriously. The offending staffer would at the least be reprimanded.

Both public and private schools have people working in them who are dedicated and wonderful, and both have people working in them who should probably have gone into another field.

In a private school, the principal is the final authority. If the principal is a good administrator, that can be a good thing. On the other hand, if they're this kind of sadistic asshole, that can be a horribly bad thing.

I believe students should be taught appropriate expectations, and held to them. Had the student already been cautioned about turning in sloppy homework, and had it been explained that another recurrence would result in their homework not being accepted, then it's okay to reject the offending paper, but it is still not acceptable to berate the child. What on earth could possibly be a positive outcome of that?

Hang in there, Uly. There are better places to work, and I have faith that you will find one soon.

[tnlefty]

67. Gee Uly, thanks for understanding the developmental stages of 8-9 yr.

old males! I wish you could teach mine!

Encouraging as opposed to berating a child who CORRECTLY completed an assignment - how dare you! Quality of work is important, but I'm much more interested in what my kids know and what they're curious about and whether or not their school environment is continuing their desire to learn instead of snuffing it out and making them hate school.

I've been pressured by a few relatives to send my kids into private schools and my response over the past three years has been, "Even if I could afford to send all 3 of them I wouldn't do it. Look no further than the Oval Office to figure out why I don't think that private schools are superior to the public school system". I know I'm just mean.;)

[Skittles]

70. that principle is a f***ing abusive asshole

who has no business dealing with children

[democratreformed]

71. Ulysses, IMO, it was the not the TYPE of school that caused this problem

but the person involved. I taught for six years in public schools. I taught in two different districts under five different principals.

At my first school, my principal was a "no frills" type of guy. He was strict but fair. He was very serious about his job and worked very hard to make both the teachers AND the students better. I didn't understand that until I moved to my second school.

At that school, each year, I was under the authority of two principals b/c I had classes in both middle school and high school. My first two years, the high school principal was close to retirement and simply did not care - the middle school principal was strictly "for the school" (who cares about the students anyway!!). My last two years there, the middle school principal was a very caring and kind person. She worked very hard to promote the students' self esteem and work FOR them. At the same time, she stood up for her teachers when it was called for. She didn't last very long b/c being that kind of administrator DOES NOT fit in the system.

IMO, the person who did that to the student you talked about is a power-loving jerk who serves as a school administrator b/c it's an easy place for him (her?) for exert authority over "lesser" people (children). That, to me, is one of the most distressful things about a school - when it does not exist for the good of all involved. The last school I taught at (and which my daughter attended until graduation but my son only one year), did not exist for the good of all involved. It existed for MONEY. That school has all kinds of fine distinctions from the state b/c the superintendent was good at making it "look good". In my experience, though, it was not a place that promoted learning and what was good for students.

[ulysses]

74. the t ype of school that it is

helps her in covering things up.

I know bad things happen in public schools. It's not my contention that they don't.

[TNMOM]

80. Christian schools are the worst

I went to a Christian school my freshman year in high school. And I heard many similar comments. The teachers were racist. One of them actually discouraged my brother from going to college. I can't believe my parents paid for the privilege. I will never send my kid to a Christian school.