Let's Get Rid of the Home-School and Voucher CRAP *NOW*

[UTUSN]

I'm a Dem and home-schoolering is NUTS. I would like to raise a GENIUS kid the way I had to FIND OUT FOR MYSELF, but it ain't goin to ahpp3en, o.i.?

The people I've encountered who want VOUCHERS want EWXTRA INCOME of some kind. My sister (and her husband) had 8 (EITHGHT0 children and PAID the cATHOLIC CHURCH to sent them there. So WHY are my acauaintnanteces wanting WQBOUCHERS? Ehhhh?

On Edit: Had to gret rid of a typeo NOW!. In the headline. Have I told my DUE-ers I love you now?

[foxglove1]

1. What's your problem with homeschooling?

I homeschool my son and it suits us just fine

Sue

[preciousdove]

13. Since you asked...

The sniper with the Jamaican kid was homeschooling. Now of course that is the extereme but it is more possible than if there are other people around paying attentions to what is going on with a kid.

Also there are a lot of mentally ill and just plain evil people with children out there. Having kids go to school gives them an alternative reality and a beter chance they will be ok.

Homeschooling is a godsend to people into incest and physical abuse. So much of US religion is based on fantasy that does not work in the real world. It might work for the parents but destroy the child.

So your son (and my neices) may be thriving and I can't say that things are OK in the public schools especially with the Republicans trying to shut them down and so many people homeschooling rather than fighting them, but I can't say homeschooling is the answer to everything.

My daughter-in-law is an ESL teacher who got forced into the High School setting by budget cuts. I cannot see how the public schools are managing when kids never see the same faces two years in a row and teachers never get a chance to perfect a grade level before being forced into another setting. In my gradeschool the teachers retired from the school.

It is insane to dismantle the Public School system on purpose or by neglect. It is a small world after all.

[Lady Freedom]

18. Wait a minute!

quote:"Also there are a lot of mentally ill and just plain evil people with children out there. Having kids go to school gives them an alternative reality and a beter chance they will be ok.

Homeschooling is a godsend to people into incest and physical abuse."

Not all home schooled people get abused!

[aquart]

46. No, they just get completely controlled.

By a single viewpoint.

[The_Golden_Child]

52. That's right-- their parents viewpoint, which...

even if I may disagree with it-- is far better than everyone being controlled by the state's viewpoint. Read Brave New World recently?

[trogdor]

47. No, but it sure makes those bruises less visible to the public.

A lot of fundies are into control, and homeschooling allows the parent to exert a gigantic degree of control over their children. Whether this is a good thing is left as a topic for class discussion.

The thing that makes me shake my head is people who have no credentials after high school who think they're somehow qualified to homeschool. They pick up the kit from Bob Jones University (the world's largest supplier of such materials) and think it's as simple as baking a cake.

Hell, my wife and I have three bachelors' degrees between us, but we wouldn't do it. For one, the opportunity cost is too high; might as well send the kid to private boarding school.

[zoidberg]

21. What a poorly reasoned post!

Well, didn't the kids who shot up Columbine products of public schools? Using your 'logic', shouldn't we ban public schools because of this?

Just because you have a bone to pick with religion, that doesn't mean that parents (many of whom are secular by the way) shouldn't have the right to raise their children as they see fit.

[foxglove1]

32. uhhhh yeah, ok

Whatever .... my husband and I took our son out of 6th grade 2 weeks into the school year because from the first day of middle school, he was being persecuted by evil little fucks. My son is mildly autistic and was in a *special* class ... meaning that the learning disabled kids, special needs kids, and anti-social juvenile delinquent kids were all stuck in the same classroom together. My son, being very tall and big boned, and also very gentle (just the way we raised him) was a perfect target because we've always taught him to respect others, be kind to others, and never say or do anything to anyone that he would not want someone to say or do to him.

The very first day he came home and asked me "Mommy, what does "snuff" mean?" I told him that it means to put something out, such as a candle. He then told me that some kid told him he was going to "snuff" him. Very nice.

The next day, he comes home and says that some other kid keeps making comments about "your momma." My son wanted to know why he kept insulting me, when he obviously had never met me before.

A couple of days later, he comes home to tell me that he doesn't like going out into the schoolyard during lunch because the same kid and 3 of his buddies had invented a new game ... gathering around my kid in a circle and spitting on him. A quick phone call to the school counselor brought a less than satisfactory solution ... from that moment on, my son ate lunch everyday in the counselor's office, and was not allowed to go outside. Let's see, my kid gets picked on and SPAT on, and they penalize HIM instead of punishing the little shitheads doing it?? I DON'T THINK SO.

She also told us that ALL children are evil at that age and that if "Jesus showed up in middle school, they'd make fun of him, too." Maybe MOST of them would, but my son most certainly would NOT, because he has not been raised to prey on others for sport.

We then made an appointment to talk to our son's teacher, who informed us that she didn't know what the problem was, but that she didn't want any trouble because she was nearing retirement age, and could we just tell our son to stay away from those harassing him.

We then called the principal and told him that if he didn't take immediate steps to stop these children from harassing our child, we would tell our son to fight back the next time he was hit, tripped, or spat upon. We then got a lecture on how violence never solves anything LOL

But the last straw, the final last goddamn straw, was the following week when our 10 year old son was ARRESTED ... yes arrested.

Seems that the leader of the pack terrorizing my kid decided to sneak up on my son and punch him in the side of his face while the teacher sat at her desk with her head down as she wrote something. My son stood up, grabbed the little plastic chair and threw it at the kid, whereupon it bounced off his head and gave him a bump. The mother of said demon, upon being called and told that her son had gotten a bump, insisted that the school press charges against my son. My son, being mildly autistic, never told the teacher or cops that the other kid had punched him in the face. When his face visibly swelled and bruised that evening, we called the cops and told them that our son had been punched, but they pooh-poohed it and said he should have spoken up sooner.

And so, on my son's 11th birthday, we had to appear in COURT. My sweet little boy, who had never done or said one hurtful thing in his life, and had only fought back after all other avenues were exhausted, had to go to court on his 11th birthday and be terrorized by the judge describing in lurid detail what would happen to him if he was found guilty, and how he would be taken from us and locked in a room for years. I can still see the tears running down his cheeks as he shivered and squeezed my hand until I thought my fingers would break.

I called the principle and gave him holy hell and all he said to me was "Please don't use cursewords .... what can I do for you?" I then informed him that he could clear out my son's locker because it would be a cold day in hell before he ever stepped foot into that godforsaken hellhole again. And thus began our adventure in homeschooling.

Sue

[Shanty Oilish]

37. Horror story

I'd do more than remove my child from ps for that. I'd sue.

Yes, that could turn into a life's work, and I understand why you might elect not to.

And you were his champion. He knows that. :thumbsup:

[KamaAina]

53. Stand up for your son's rights under IDEA!

if the Repukkkes haven't repealed it yet, that is :puke:

There's no reason you should be forced to assume the burdens, financial and timewise, of homeschooling just because that @#%^^&*)%^$@##!! school is violating your son's right to a free, appropriate public education (FAPE) to which he is entitled under Federal law.

There are steps you can take:

* Call an IEP (Individualized Education Plan) meeting. The parent is allowed to call for one at any time, not jst at the end of the year. If the district can't or won't accommodate your son (hard to imagine, since you specified he has mild autism), then they have to pay for a private placement. It's not just a good idea -- it's the law.

* Contact your local autism society. The moms (and a few dads) there may well have similar horror stories and may well know of some resources you can use. They may, for instance, have worked with lawyers who just love these kinds of cases 'cause they're like free money: the families are right 99% of the time, and the school district is wrong 99% of the time. Cha-ching!

A list of local Autism Society of America chapters is here:

http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=chaptermap

P.S. If you feel you can handle the homeschooling, go for it. I can't imagine my own (single) Mom homeschooling her autistic son (yes, he is the one who grew up to be a four-digit Evil DUer!), but that doesn't mean it's not for everyone.

[gully]

38. Well as a formerly abused child of a mentally ill parent...

I think Homeschooling can be a very good thing. Although, your points are quite well taken.

And, I don't think homeschooling=dismantelling the public school system.

I plan to homeschool for a time for many reasons. I think kids should be individuals who are encouraged to learn at their own pace etc...

[stitz58]

22. There is nothing wrong with home-schooling.

That is your choice. I didn't do it with our children, but that was my choice.
Just don't ask for tax breaks. If the home-schoolers get tax breaks then they would be hurting MY children.
It just wouldn't be fair.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. They are HELPING your children

If they are in public school, as they have a right to be, they are taking resources away from your kids. If they go elsewhere, the parents should benefit.

[MadHound]

51. Does this mean that you believe . . .

That childless couples shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools? I don't think so, I think the whole community benefits from having a literate populace, no matter where they were educated.

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. No

But if everybody went and enrolled their kids in public school, the system would collapse. So they ARE making things easier.

[SoCalDem]

2. Can you spell...S C A M ??? I Knew you could...

These silly-assed homeschools are just trying to funnel money away from the public schools.. This is phase one..

phase two will be as the funding gets tighter and tighter, and the unions are on the ropes.. Once they break the unions, and defund the schools, you will see a "REBUILDING of a public school system, BUT the NEW ones will be offshoots of the fundy schools..

The cookiecutter schools will not HAVE to educate ALL the kids.. They will be able to pick and choose, once the infrastructure is broken down..

Remember how they all chant..."The constitution does not guarantee a public education"

[foxglove1]

3. Are you referring to private schools or homeschooling?

Homeschooling to us is me and my son, working together at home. Are there private schools for homeschooled kids? If so, that's not homeschooling ... it's private schooling.

And we're not christian, btw. It burns my craw that nearly every homeschool support group I come across is run by wingnut holy rollers

Sue

[SoCalDem]

11. I am talking about the voucher schools that spring up

to cash in on the "faith based" educational programs..:)

[Lady Freedom]

17. But I was homeschooled...

and my parents payed school tax at the time too. So How can you say that their trying to funnle money away when there paying the tax?

[Shanty Oilish]

30. I've heard that schools receive funding per student

And a local ps teacher explained to me that homeschoolers, by not attending, lower the amount of money funded to the ps. So that is funneling money away from the school. The fact that it was funneled away from the taxpayer first is another matter.

[Skittles]

43. um, I don't mean to be rude Lady Freedom

but your two sentences have several major spelling and grammar mistakes. You could use an English CLASS.

[aquart]

49. Was it done because you had a learning disability

And they felt your school system was inadequate to provide for you?

I have dyslexic friends who spell like you. Was that why you were homeschooled?

[sandnsea]

4. homeschooling was a liberal idea

Actually that's where it started years ago. Liberal hippie types, for lack of a better word off the top of my head, wanted to teach their children without all the trappings of regimented, rote education. Alot of these kids began doing brillaintly because their education was so much more broad-based.

Eventually religious people began keeping their kids home for their own reasons and homeschooling really took off. So now the monied interests are seeing it as an opportunity and selling programs to these homeschoolers and using school funds to make millions. These people never wanted anything original in the first place so the regimented curriculums spewed out by the likes of Bill Bennett are perfect for them. It stinks that funds needed by schools for building, curriculum, teachers, etc., are being used to make people rich.

But I did want to add that bit of background because apparently liberals had a good idea once again; that fundies took to extremes and corporate America took to rip the taxpayer off.

[UTUSN]

15. So Were 1st-Amendment-Zones (a Liberal Idea)

to protect pro-Choice clients entering clinics. Lots of our ideas have had unintended consequences.

[wellstone_democrat]

5. As someone who gets too many of 'em in college

these days, let me say that for every single broadly educated and enriched home schooled freshman I see, I see (at minimum) four who are ill served by untrained parent-teachers.

Overall, the secular homeschooled are the most thoroughly educated and prepared for college, the religious homeschooled the worst. Are many people doing a wonderful job for their kids? You bet, but the scams with homeschooling programs that are proliferating are amazing in both their number and their poor quality. many are bringing back books from the early 1800s. "Values" they say. OK, but science HAS progressed and your college would like you to know that disease doesn't spread from "miasmas from cemetaries" and from "invisible agents in the fog"---sure, we can extrapolate to modern germ theory but...they aren't and they aren't prepared.

I've had "honors" diploma children who either are nearly illiterate or have read ONLY the Bible. How do they get in? The credentialing services on the web and through churches who are either paid, in collusion, or have not yet caught up with the scams. The average from high school courses counts and many do not have to take SATs. Even those who do and score adequately often have NO background in anything (as one said) but "reading and arithmetic"---

I think the genius of this nation was free public education for an educated electorate. Look at the elites: they want a refund for the education they would already buy their children. They are not sending THEIR children to home schools, to schools that teach only to standardized tests or to the commercially run schools. That surely ought to tell you something. They are invested in the dumbing down of the electorate while their children reap the benefits of the best and they get the tuition refund.

AND for those of you who home school responsibly and thoroughly, please read my qualifications before you come at me. Many do well by their children, many simply don't know how or are seeking only to give them too narrow an "education" to survive outside Sunday School.

[UTUSN]

10. Public Education Needs to SURVIVE

The lady who wants vouchers wants "quality education" for her grandchildren. i sayk, I want it for ALL the children. It's a scam, VOUCHERS are extra $$$$$$s. My Democratic sister and her Democratic husband WORKED and PAID for CATHOLIC school because they THOUGHT it was BEST???? Was It????????????

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. They paid twice

Is that fair? You want to really see public education collapse one day? I know exactly how to do it.

Every single private school child and homeschool child in the U.S. signs up for their legally required education at a public school. No major school district in the U.S. could handle it. They wouldn't have schools, teachers, books or money. Then, as soon as they start to build those schools, hire those teachers and buy those books, those families should pull their kids out. Point made. Maybe then people would notice what impact they have.

Parents who homeschool or send their kids to private school are doing you a favor. They are paying twice. They are keeping the public school system from collapsing from its own weight.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. oh come on

nice side lateral arabesque. The public pays for public education because it is in the public's best interest not to have uneducated public.

People who pay for private schools are doing it because they want to. They are not paying double, because they could never pay enough in taxes to cover the cost of their kids education in a public school.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. OK

Then let's go back to my point in another post. What happens to your precious public school system if all such people show up in the public system? How fast does it freakin' collapse?

[UTUSN]

6. I Would Love to Teach MY Child PERFEDT

But dislike my Dems wanting "vouchers" to "private schools". What we Dems are about is PUBLIC SCHOOLS. For me. I don't know, maybe I'm an elitist public person.

[Shanty Oilish]

16. We Dems are about public schools...

Which of the Dems running for president went to public schools? Where do/did their kids go to school?

[Yupster]

36. Jimmy Carter sent his daughter to public schools in DC

he is a rare duck indeed.

Bill and Hillary wouldn't let Chelsea near DC public schools.

PS - my kid is in private school too.

[Clete]

7. I really don't understand homeschooling unless

you're out in the bush somewhere miles from the nearest school, then it would make sense. Other than that I have seen it as a tool by the dogmatic to teach children only what they want them to know like maybe Creationism. Also parents, who are poor and can't buy their children new clothes to wear to school, seem to home school a lot too. Besides that, one parent told me that it was a way to instill their values in their children, but can't they do that after school?

I think the social skills a child gain from school and having to compete with other children and deal with children different than themselves makes a child more aware of the world he will have to live and work in one day. There are ways to make sure kids are getting the most from school.

This is where I credit Asians with knowing how to educate their children. Asian families I have known send their kids to school everyday, but they also have them get extra tutoring after school and saturdays if they feel the public schools aren't up to their standards, but I have never known an Asian families that home schools although maybe it happens.

[slackmaster]

45. I know a very liberal atheist couple who sent their kids to...

A parochial school because the public schools in the area where they were living in northern Virginia (Alexandria???) had terrible discipline problems. When my friend sheepishly told me his kids were attending a Lutheran Elementary School I was stunned. I'd always had the impression that area had good public schools.

This was several years ago. I hope things have gotten better.

[tjdee]

8. Wow, a lot of typos there.

What are "acauaintnanteces", LOL??

The voucher nonsense is just that. But, this is exactly the kind of Pandora's box you open when you come up with such an asinine idea--another great Republican idea!

Republicans (and Joe Lieberman) want to start touting vouchers, they'd better be ready to respond to parents who are homeschooling their child/children because the public school is inferior (even if that's not really their reason for homeschooling).

Why don't Republicans actually *think* through their policies?
Oh that's right--the homeschoolers weren't their target with this. It was Poppy's friend's kids who pay 30K to send their kid to school, and the companies that are waiting to start private school franchises and destroy the public schools.
Sigh.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. So much to comment on

From vouchers to homeschooling.

First of all, homeschooling. Lots of parents homeschool because they don't like what's taught in the public school system -- from a lack of values they share to a lack of decent education. I've lived in D.C. and a more screwed up public school system never existed. It is atrocious. Sure, rich folks can opt out and send their kids to some preppie academy. Poor folks can't. They either send their kids to the drug-infested ratholes D.C. calls schools, or they teach them on their own. Don't criticize them for it, thank them for trying.

Vouchers are an attempt to equalize things out a bit for those same people who have no choice. It might be better to try and save the D.C. system, but that will take a long time. Meanwhile, what happens to the children (mostly black and other minorities) who are stuck going there? Vouchers help give parents an option.

As for public education, it suffers from many things:

* Fractured families
* Parents who don't get involved in teaching their kids
* Parents who dump their problem children on the school system
* A bureaucracy more concerned with processing children than teaching them
* An educational establishment more concerned with politics and political correctness than teaching children
* Mainstreaming problem or disabled children to the detriment of others

[Shanty Oilish]

14. Charter schools

A few weeks back I posted a thread asking what anybody knew/thought about charter schools...got NO response.
Here's what I know. Cyber charter schools are legal in PA, which is comparatively restrictive about homeschooling. The child learns at home, primary teacher being parent or other non-certified teacher. It is FREE. Tax money pays for it just like public school, and it is considered public school though it occurs in the home. You get a free computer and books and learning material, all free.
PA isn't the only state that permits it.
I'd be interested to hear from DUers on the subject. The info available on the net is, near as I can determine, all supplied by the schools themselves. No pro/con.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. follow the money

my tax dollars and yours are going to one of the bushes and fat ass William Bennet. They are profiting from their own efforts to distroy public education. They are the ones selling this software.

It's great when people can get their kids eduction for free, but the tax payers are paying for it and that software could be used by many kids rather than just one.

The few kids who are schooled this way take money out of the system because it's not like the school can hire less teachers or other staff. I have no problem with private and alternative education. I do have a problem with my tax dollars going to fund private business.

[SoCalDem]

27. Don't forget Neil Bush

and his scammy little "curriculum"..

If there's a buck to be made, they will find a way to get their grubby hands on it :(

[UTUSN]

20. "...got NO response..."

All of my thoughtful posts get "...got NO response..." - get used to it, Baby. ---------Hey, goodnitght, my beloved DU-ers, I really really menan it.

[Shanty Oilish]

25. I am used to it, and it wasn't a thoughtful post.

I was looking for information, said nothing at all elevating myself :)

[dodger2371]

33. For a gift one is always beholden

If you take Tax Money then therefore you must beholden to the rules of Separation of Church & State which accompanies the voucher and is followed by the public school system.

So people taking voucher money beware!

Assume Nothing!
Don't jump to the conclusion you won't have to pay or follow the state rules!

YOU WILL! Believe me You WIll!

[Cheswick2.0]

28. vouchers do not give parents an option

Most kids can not get into private school voucher or not. There aren't enough private school spots for all the kids suffering in bad schools. The only solution is to fix the public schools. Vouchers are nothing more than another right wing tool to break the teachers union and privitize education so corporations can profit.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Vouchers

Trust me on this one. You come up with a voucher plan and businesspeople will fall all over themselves trying to provide education to fill that need.

Unlike the public school system, such people would react quickly and have schools up and running right away.

Your solution is wonderful for the long term. Meanwhile, kids in the worst schools are totally screwed.

[indigo32]

35. Amen Cheswick

Amen

[ewagner]

26. Milwaukee Experiment

When Gov Thompson (now infamous Sec'y of Health and Social Services)got a waiver to try the voucher program in Milwaukee, it was an obvious ploy by the Gov to do three things:

1. Pander to the Republican Party
2. Bust up the teacher's unions, and
3. Get money into the hands of his fundie buddies.

Vouchers are not a good idea because they are a simple way of getting public money into religous institutions. Vouchers are not a good idea because they cherry-pick the best students away from public schools and leave the special ed and mediocre students to the public schools. Vouchers are not good because they create a separatist attitude among private school, public school and faith-based schools. Vouchers allow parents to send children to schools that do not have to meet state (and now federal) standards.

Home schooling isn't quite the same ball of wax although parents who accept vouchers for home schooling, should be required to have their children pass the same exams as other students (5th, 8th and 12th grade?)

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. A couple points

I know lots of poor Democrats who want vouchers because they have lousy schools that can't be fixed any time soon.

I don't care if we do weaken the teachers unions. Might be a good thing to get them to be more flexible.

Money is already flowing to religous institutions. The difference is some families would get the money back. Others might be able to afford the schools.

There is already a separatist attitude among private school, public school and faith-based schools. So?

It would be easy to make voucers good only in schools that state (and now federal) standards.

The hard part about having homeschool children pass the same exams is not all homeschooling follows the exact same patterns. I would say they should have to pass some sort of eighth grade and 12 grade general exam.

[TrogL]

39. There is nothing wrong with home schooling, per se

If you're using a balanced, government approved curriculum.

The problem is the wacko fundamentalist crap many homeschooling parents use for a curriculum.

[Shanty Oilish]

40. That, and this current govt...

As Cheswick points out, busting the union and corporate profits are factors. Particularly now. :(

[Undemcided]

42. Come again?

If you're using a balanced, government approved curriculum.

The government doesn't own children. Surely it's up to the parents to decide what's in a child’s best interest. Home schoolers aren’t all kiddy diddling, right wing, whackjobs.

[donco6]

41. I don't want any of my tax dollars going to . . .

. . . religious groups that would just as soon lock me up in a concentration camp. As a gay man, the thought of my money going to some fundie school where the kids learn that being gay is an "abomination" makes my blood boil.

[zoidberg]

44. What about Pell Grants?

Do you have a problem with students receiving financial aid to go to religious universities? Is there a conceptual difference between that and vouchers?

[Blue_Chill]

55. Your money goes lots of places that suck

Such is life in a nation as big and diverse as the US. The real issue is how can one throw money at private schools without harming public schools and who would get the vouchers and how?

[qanda]

48. I homeschool my children

and I think more and more people who lean left are keeping their children at home to educate them. Talking in absolutes is what gives the Democrats a bad name. One size does not fit all and if the Dems keep pushing that way of doing things then they are going to keep losing elections all around the country.

[The_Golden_Child]

50. Children were taught at home long before there were...

school systems, public or private. The way things are going to the right in this country, we may all want to homeschool our kids someday. Who knows what propaganda they might be hearing in the so-called "public" schools.

[Blue_Chill]

54. How about - NO! and YES!

Homeschooling is fine, so there. Yes my argument is 'so there'. You got a problem with that? eh?

As for vouchers I tend to agree with you. Until I see a way where we can help kids get into better public schools without destroying the public schools I can't and won't support it.

Good topic BTW.