Recovery Folks

[ihaveaquestion]

Some AA folks I know consider *ush a "dry drunk," in that he acts like a drunk in his thinking and approach to life, but that he doesn't actually drink. What are your thoughts?

[Dookus]

1. I think there

is no such thing as "dry drunk" outside of AA.

It's a phenomenon that doesn't exist. It's used to disparage those who quit drinking without joining the cult of AA.

[Jacobin]

2. Actually, AA's Big Blue Book has lots of information on

the dry drunk phenomenon.

I know lots of alkies, and oh yeah, they get dry drunk.

[Dookus]

11. The Big Book

is not a scientific journal.

Find me ONE single medical expert who can document the existence of a "dry drunk".

[Marnieworld]

4. AA is a cult?

Amen to that!

[pagerbear]

10. Is it? Is it really?

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

[Dookus]

13. The conclusion that it's a cult?

by spending 11 years in it, then reading such books as "AA: Cult or Cure", "The Real AA", "Truth About Addiction and Recovery" and others.

I learned that AA has a success rate about equal to that of people who quit without using any external support structure. And that rate is abysmal, in both cases.

Most people who quit do so without AA. The vast majority of people who try AA fail to quit.

If a medicine had the same efficacy rate as AA, it would be taken off the market.

[pagerbear]

14. What about the people in AA who DO quit and build better lives?

[Dookus]

16. What about them?

The only reasonable response is "Good for them". I say the same for people who join Scientology and build better lives. Good for them.

[Mountainman]

17. AA is not some miracle cure. You can take the12 steps or leave them

Don't blame AA for someone's not staying sober. I really doubt that someone who really lives the 12 steps everyday of their life goes back to drinking. Some people fall down and get up again The fact that they are trying is the idea.

I'm 21 years sober this year and I don't go to meetings but I practice the 12 steps.

No AA is not a cult and there is no cult leader. It is a recommended way to live with the addiction of alcohol. There are no promises and no claims of success. Each person has to work their own program.

[Dookus]

19. I don't blame AA

if people fail. But the fact is, their success rate is under 5%, and matches the success rate of people who quit without AA.

A leader is not required for it to be a cult. It has a whole culture of group-think, magical thinking, separation from others not in the cult, and other attributes traditionally associated with cults. Furthermore, the worship of Bill W. *IS* in fact cultish. He is the leader, just as L. Ron Hubbard is the leader of Scientology, even though both men are dead.

I'm not encouraging anybody to leave AA. I don't encourage people to leave Scientology, either. But that doesn't mean I can't rightly believe they're both cults.

[Mountainman]

25. You really don't understand AA, you can believe what you want though

No one worships Bill W.

There are no leaders other than those who lead a meeting. And they don't do so permanantly.

Like I said, AA does not claim a success rate. It is not in competition with any other recovery program. It is a suggested way of living.

I really doubt I could explain it to you.

[Dookus]

28. I understand AA very well

having spent 11 years there.

You don't need to explain it to me.

I know they don't "worship" Bill W. Scientologists don't worship L. Ron Hubbard in the traditional sense, either. But both men are revered in very similar ways.

AA does not claim a success rate because to do so would expose how inefficacious it is.

I found this here: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/page/literature.articles.0307a.htm

AA claims as high as a 60 percent success rate. However, this figure is disputed by two external studies reported by Martin and Deidre Bobgan (Prophets of Psychoheresy II, 1990, pp. 251-252):

In spite of the fact that it inspires nearly universal acclaim and enthusiasm among alcoholism treatment personnel in the United States, Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) wholly lacks experimental support for its efficacy. . . .

Only two studies have employed random assignment and adequate controls to compare the efficacy of A.A. versus no intervention or alternative interventions. Brandsma et al. (1980) found NO DIFFERENCES at 12-month follow-up between A.A. and no treatment, and at 3-month follow-up those assigned to A.A. were found to be significantly MORE likely to be binge drinking, relative to controls or those assigned to other interventions (based on unverified self-reports). Ditman and Crawford (1966) assigned court mandated "alcohol addicts" to A.A., clinic treatment, or no treatment (probation only). Based on records of rearrest, 31% of A.A. clients and 32% of clinic-treated clients were judged successful, as compared with 44% success in the untreated group (Ditman, Crawford, Forgy, Moskowitz, & MacAndrew, 1967).


The fact is, AA does NOT really add anything, statistically, to a population of problem drinkers who try to quit. Use AA, don't use AA, the results are about the same over the long term. Over the short term, AA seems to hurt.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. You attended AA for 12 years and you don't drink

(at least I am assuming you don't drink). You sound like an AA sucess story to me. :7

Of course there is a point where some people move on if they can.
I attended al-anon for many years and finally had to quit going because I was sick of the whining, mine and everyone elses. But I don't disparage it, I needed to whine and be self centered for awhile (I had been selfless for so long) and so do all the people who continue to go.

[noonwitch]

23. I don't think AA is a cult per se, but people in recovery are vulnerable

to cult-like thinking sometimes.
People with low self-esteem are looking for a savior.

My dad quit drinking at age 64, after a 40+ year pattern of binge drinking. He never went to AA, but was attending a 12 step program for people with post-polio syndrome. He stopped drinking when one of the members of that group confronted him when he complained about not being able to pull himself up as easily (Duh, you're drunk all the time!). He also quit smoking at the same time.

Synannon, in California, is a cult. I've read a lot about it and it sounds like one big mind-f$@%.

[Cheswick2.0]

30. No dookus, it is a real phenomenon only the name is created by AA

Dry drunks are those who quit drinking but never give up the rest of the lousy behavior. They still control, rage and act like irresponsible angry children.

[Dookus]

32. then please find me

psychologists who have studied this phenomenon and have published peer-reviewed studies on it.

The fact is, people often control, rage and act like irresponsible, angry children regardless of whether or not they ever had a drinking problem.

Do people with severe drinking problems suffer from other issues? Absolutely. But the term "dry drunk" is used in AA to disparage people who quit drinking without using their magic formula. However, it's been shown that people who quit drinking without using AA do as well, or better, than people who DO use AA.

[Cush]

3. stupid question time: What is "dry drunk"?

[ihaveaquestion]

7. I'm not too clear on it.

I think it's a way of thinking - like how a drunk thinks about the world - kind of myopically.

[nosmokes]

9. basically

a dry drunk is white knuckleing your way through without a program.

whether dubya fits the profile or not ain't for me to say, but his inability to admit a mistake isn't a real good sign, ya know?

[GreatScott]

21. My opinion of a dry drunk is someone who has the same

destructive bahvior as an active drinker, but without actually being drunk.

Examples might be like being quick to anger, low self-esteem, lying for no reason.

Whenever I've heard someome say that AA brainwashes you, I always replied that my brain REALLY needed a washing! In other words, if the new life is better than the old, what difference does it make?

[The Shadow]

5. Closet Drinker

I have always felt that Bushhole is a closet drinker, remember the pretzel incident?

I have always thought that that was why he needed so much time away from the public spotlight, he's either at crawford, camp david or k'bunkport. Hmmmmm!

[ihaveaquestion]

8. I think it has to be a consideration.

[Gruenemann]

12. * has been seen reeking, with a glazed expression years after

his supposed jump onto the wagon. He talks the talk, but stumbles the walk.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

6. My husband quit drinking...

several years ago. AA didn't work for him, though, but anyway he seriously didn't have good, clear thinking for about 3 years after he quit. He went through counseling and the counselor explained the "dry drunk" theory to him. Although at that time, he dismissed it as rediculous, now he says that was true. He still functioned like a drunk during those first 3 years or so. He still was quite paranoid and very, very moody. (Luckily, he came out of it)

[Deja Q]

15. "he acts like a drunk in his thinking and approach to life"

Please define this, though I have a feeling I know what the answer is...

[ihaveaquestion]

18. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, never having been a drunk....

but I'll try.

Drunks single minded craving for alcohol is an obsession and this obsessiveness carries on in the dry drunk. He/she is obsessed with something - anything.

Adaircraft mentioned paranoia and moodiness. I think any of the bad qualities the drunk had while drunk don't go away once the alcohol is out of the picture unless a concious effort is made.

Alcohol kills brain cells too. This has to have an effect on *ush, just like anyone else who abuses it.

[Jim__]

26. It sounds like what you're saying is that the alcoholism is a

symptom of a deeper problem; the alcoholism is only masking the real problem. I'm not familiar with the term "dry drunk;" but I've always thought that some people who drink a lot have problems other than the drinking.

[RoyGBiv]

20. "Dry Drunk" Syndrome and George Bush - Link

Ordinarily I would not use this term. But when I came across the article "Dry Drunk" - - Is Bush Making a Cry for Help? in American Politics Journal by Alan Bisbort, I was ready to concede, in the case of George W. Bush, the phrase may be quite apt.

Dry drunk is a slang term used by members and supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous and substance abuse counselors to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking, one who is dry, but whose thinking is clouded. Such an individual is said to be dry but not truly sober. Such an individual tends to go to extremes.

<snip>

First, in this essay, we will look at the characteristics of the so-called "dry drunk;" then we will see if they apply to this individual, our president; and then we will review his drinking history for the record. What is the dry drunk syndrome? "Dry drunk" traits consist of:

* Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity
* Grandiose behavior
* A rigid, judgmental outlook
* Impatience
* Childish behavior
* Irresponsible behavior
* Irrational rationalization
* Projection
* Overreaction


http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html

Edit to Add: Article from American Politics Journal

http://www.americanpolitics.com/20020924Bisbort.html

[ihaveaquestion]

24. WOW - Thanks for the article! I'll read it.

[mopinko]

29. sound more like bi-polar

which is frequently comorbid with substance abuse. thought that for a long time myself. the world will be a better place when mental illness is really understood. we may have a hard time finding volunteers to live at 1600 pennsylvania avenue, then, tho.

[ibegurpard]

22. Here's my experience with AA

I found going to meetings everyday and talking about alcohol actually made me think all the time about what it was I was trying to quit doing... which was counter-productive from my experience. I agree with a lot of the "12 steps" but the meetings were not good for me. I've been sober for 2 1/2 years and if AA works for some people that's fantastic and I support them 100% but it didn't work for me.

[Oddman]

27. Could be . . .

or it might be genetics that explains his idiocy . . .

[Nashyra]

33. I've been in AA for over 8 years now

have not found it neccessary to have a drink. I find that the quality of my life is effected by the consistency of how I work my program including going to meetings. At thirteen months sober I lost a still born daughter and did not have to drink to get thru the pain, I got thru with the help and support of my friends from AA. I remember 5 days after my daughter died my sponsor said as hard as it might be, look for someone who hurts more than you and help them. Well that person showed up at that next meeting, she's sober now for over 6 years and has become a dear friend. The 12 steps are a blueprint for life that would surely make the world a better place if more people would consider following them, drunks or not. That is not to say that every person in AA are "good" people, there are good and bad in every aspect of society. My favorite step is #11, the 11th step prayer is Prayer To Saint Francis, a friend gave it to me when my daughter died. I read it everyday and if I can do 1 thing mentioned in that prayer everyday I feel that the day has been a success. AA makes my existence a softer and easier place when "life" gets in the way. By the way the only thing that could drive me to drink is the * getting re-elected!! Just kidding though it would be tempting.