The downfall of America will be Religion

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

Now this was before the fervor (pre 9/11)



http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/cretinism.htm



Two out of three Americans believe in the existence of Satan with 85 percent of the Evangelical Protestants taking that position, a Newsweek magazine poll shows.

More than one out of three people polled, 37 percent, said they had been tempted by the devil while 61 percent of the evangelical Protestants said they had, according to the magazine, which will reach newsstands Monday.

Among the general population, 27 percent said they did not believe in Satan, while only 13 percent of the evangelical Protestants did not.


A new study being published this month by a leading political scientist shows that Americans have a significantly stronger belief in the idea of divine creation than Europeans or citizens of other advanced countries. University of Cincinnati professor George Bishop conducted an extensive cross-national study of attitudes, and initially presented his findings at the May conference of the American Association for Public Opinion Research. His complete report will be published in the new issue of Public Perspective, a journal of the Roper Center. He noted, "Nearly a third of college graduates in recent Gallup polls still believe in the biblical account of creation," and that about 45 percent believe that God created human beings "pretty much in (their) present form at one time or another within the last 10,000."

About 39 percent believe in a form of so-called "theistic evolution," where evolutionary processes developed over millions of years but were "guided" by God.
Only about 10 percent subscribe to evolution without any form of divine guidance or intervention as an explanation of how life began.

Americans also fared poorly in their knowledge about the science behind evolutionary theory. Respondents in Norway, Russia, German and the Netherlands all showed a significantly lower rate of literalist belief than those in the U.S., and Americans lagged behind 21 other national groups in understanding the concepts behind Darwinian evolutionary theory. Bishop also found that those most likely to accept a scientific evolutionary explanation were white Americans, male, college graduates, Jews, political liberals and political independents, and young adults under 30. Conversely, his research showed that those most predisposed to believing in Biblical literalist accounts were "women, older Americans, the less well-educated Southerners, African Americans and fundamentalist Protestants," according to the Cincinnati Post. In addition, "A sizable negative relationship exists between knowing the scientific 'fact' of evolution and beliefs in God."

[mike_c]

1. OMG....

"Nearly a third of college graduates in recent Gallup polls still believe in the biblical account of creation," and that about 45 percent believe that God created human beings "pretty much in (their) present form at one time or another within the last 10,000 (years)."

As a university zoology professor, I am utterly appalled.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. And 20% of fundies believe feminism is caused by the devil.

I say say we hold an intervention.

[pollock]

52. Appalled? That seem rather low.

If only one third and one half respectively held those beliefs, that would still be fine. Seems the right wing fundamentalists have far more influence than those numbers indicate.

[gmoney]

2. "So many people have died...

"So many people have died in the name of Christ that I can't believe at all." I think that's how the song goes.

Reminds me of my favorite new oxymoron: abstinence education (or for that matter, "Religious education")

[Raster]

3. Religion...

"It is usually when men are at their most religious that they behave with the least sense and the greatest cruelty. Ilka Chase

And of all the plagues with which mankind are cursed, Ecclesiastic tyranny's the worst. Daniel Defoe

So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake...Religion is bunk. Thomas Edison

When a man is freed of religion, he has a better chance to live a normal and wholesome life. Sigmund Freud

Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founders' than any other agency in the world. Richard Le Gallienne

In all ages, hypocrites, called priests, have put crowns upon the heads of thieves, called kings. Robert G. Ingersoll

Religion is induced insanity. Madalyn Murray O'Hair

After coming in contact with a religious man I always feel that I must wash my hands. Friedrich Nietzsche

I think there is an immense shortage of Christian charity among so-called Christians. Harry S. Truman

Religion is the source of all imanginable follies and disturbances; it is the parent of fanaticism and civil discord; it is the enemy of mankind. Voltaire

[candy331]

5. "Religion is the opium of the people"

I think this is attributed to Ghandi but correction is in order if wrong.

[Raster]

6. I believe it was Karl Marx

[Yupster]

21. Marx is right, but

how easy it is to confuse Marx and Gandhi.

[flowomo]

8. and it's "opiate", not opium, I believe

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

9. "Religion is the opiate of the masses" Karl Marx

[Cheswick2.0]

46. I am sure he meant to say the Internet is the opiate of the masses

or Gameboy is the opiate of the masses.
:eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

45. Since Gandhi himself was relgious

that makes no sense. In fact it was Marx who wanted people to opiated by the state instead.

[billyskank]

49. Indeed, Ghandi was deeply religious. n/t

[Servo300]

53. Groucho Marx? :-)

[pollock]

56. Marx wanted people opiated by the state?

First time I've heard that. Fill me in.

[kodi]

4. priests and preachers are nothing but parasites, preying on the stupid

never met a one with a fucking brain, but met a lot with bullshit on their lips and their hands out for an offering.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kodi]

18. well, boo fucking hoo to you too.

priests and clergymen provide false hope and expect money in return from those too stupid to think for themselves.

yes. i've seen it all my life, some priest/minister talks about jesus and the promised land then there's his hand out for a little silver.

religion is the opiate of the masses and clegy are just the drug pushers.

you must think that a minister lives and eats worse than his worst parishioner. he doesn't. most live high on the hog compared to those jesus admonished us to help.

i wouldn't trust a priest with my kids and i sure as hell won't trust them with my money.

[bobthedrummer]

22. Well there's organized religion/cults and then there's faith and beliefs.

There's a difference imho that should be respected.

[varun]

39. What about the hate spewing from the "religious right"?

How many more gay and lesbian citizens of this world will be victims of the religious nuts?

[Texican]

27. I Have Just One Word For That

Amen

[TankLV]

40. Well, the priest in my home parish is a fantastic human being.

Unfortunately, he is so rare and so good, that the higher-ups had him reassigned to other, more troubled (financially, etc.) parishes.

When I was growing up, our married priest and his wife were an institution - were so for around 50 years until his death. There was a real sense of family and belonging.

He lost his only two sons fighting in WWII.

[QC]

43. Was MLK a parasite? Were his followers stupid? n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

47. yah, gotta hate that Martin Luther King Jr.

:cry:

[TroubleMan]

7. I always thought America would be brought down by greed

The "religion" your talking about really has it's root in greed. The leaders of the fundies fake religion and exploit the followers for money and power.

Two sides of the same evil coin I guess. Maybe that's why "In God We Trust" is on our money.

[myopic4141]

93. The quote should be

"In God We Trust, Everyone Else Pay Cash"; however, that would not have fit on the coinage very well.

[wtmusic]

10. One step further: stupidity

Back when natural selection required intelligence for survival, intellectual progress was a certainty. Nowadays, the old gray matter is quickly becoming a cranial appendix.

[oblivious]

11. America's downfall is its debt - 30 to 40 trillion????

[bloom]

13. Lack of morality won't help, either....

and I'm not suggesting that religions have a lock on morality... but I think it could be a serious problem.


The lack of community... of people not feeling they are a part of group without participating in sadistic rituals... the whole bullying/shunning thing that happens in schools, already.

There is a odd mindset developing like in the Survivor shows and I don't see anything good coming from it.

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

14. religion destroyed morality

I myself believe in egalitarian hedonism.

[Astarho]

16. I think the greed/stupidity combination

will do us in first.

[dolo amber]

19. Y'know how to solve the stupidity problem, right?

Just take the warning labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself. :evilgrin:

Bad dolo...:spank:

ps- I totally stole that off of bash.org. ;)

[TroubleMan]

20. Hasn't worked for cigarettes or beer

Labels on or off.

I know beer is bad for me, am I gonna stop drinking?... I doubt it.

[Astarho]

26. Unfortunately

I've met a lot of lucky stupid people in my life. :evilgrin:

People that by all logic, and laws of nature should have been dead a long time ago. :shrug:

BTW have you ever read "The Marching Morons" by C.M. Kornbluth? It's eerily prophetic

[bobthedrummer]

17. Col. Michael Aquino of US Army MI and Defense Intelligence Agency

when not working national security/PSYOPS ministered as a Church of Satan priest. When there was division in that cult/religion he took it over and replaced it with his own Temple of Set in 1975 while on active duty.

Temple of Set Statement to US Armed Forces (see Temple of Set)
http://www.nightspell.dhs.org/

Temple of Set history
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/satanism/tempset.html

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id163/pg1/

Claims of Nazi and fascist ideologies in Temple of Set "refuted"
http://www.necronomi.com/magic/satanism/fascist.set.txt

What US cultural values and beliefs are reflected in some of the pics and videos that have been publicly released?

[thebigidea]

91. Grinnin' Graner apparently claims to be Christian

Christians: the worst kind of Satanist.

[maggrwaggr]

23. don't blame religion. Blame stupidity, ignorance, and fear

n/t

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

24. which is why people turn to religion/are religious in the first place(nt)

[maggrwaggr]

25. No. I consider myself religious.

but probably not in the ways you would think.

I don't "turn to" religion, I find my own religion to be one that celebrates the mysteries and the magic and the beauty of the world and the universe.

Which is what religion is supposed to do.

For instance, the more I learn about the laws of physics, and the mysteries thereof, the more I appreciate my own religion.

The more I find in the world to be completely mystifying, the more in awe I am of the spiritual reality of the universe.

Unfortunately religion has been abused by not only its users, but its proponents.

People realize that by being religious leader they can have power over people. It attracts the wrong kind of people on both sides of the fence.

[RapidCreek]

92. No that is what a healthy mind is supposed to do

One need not have religion to celebrate the mysteries and the magic and the beauty of the world and universe.....quite the contrary...religion seeks to replace those things with infantile explanations, intended to preclude thought. You've mistaken cognitive dissonance for spirituality.

Show me a religion which employs the laws of physics to explain anything and I'll kiss your ass.

RC

[RapidCreek]

90. What's the difference?

RC

[maggrwaggr]

94. to me, religion is a private matter

we obviously have two different definitions of the term "religion".

To me, organized "religion" isn't "religion" at all. It's dogma and it's a way to control people.

What I'm talking about is the relationship between an individual and the universe.

That's religion and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[Jacobin]

28. Hey, look what religion did for Europe in the Middle Ages

I for one am still upset that the sun does not revolve around the earth (as the bible implies) and wish that the church had held its ground and tortured or murdered all "scientists" who were "trying to prove the bible wrong".

Life would be so much simpler now if only the church had not relented and had stayed strong in the face of the attacks on the bible from all these evil scientists.

Of course, George Bush* is trying very hard to turn the clock back to the good ole days of yore....Dark Ages!! YES. Heresy can be met with torture and imprisonment!! We can use TAXES to fund the churches and no longer have to rely on tithes.

Yes indeedy, the good ole days are returning and you can thank Mr. Boosh for that.


(sadly, I've discovered that I have to footnote here on DU sometimes to note this is sarcasm) :shrug:

[Quahog]

36. Chapter and verse please?

I'm looking through Genesis right now, and I can't find a passage anywhere that "implies" that the sun orbits the earth. Could you educate me?

Or is it just that this sounds good in your argument, so you thought you'd just throw it in on the chance that no one would ask for clarification?

The problem is, you don't need biblical quotes to make your argument... the Catholic church was indeed very slow to come around to understanding the scientific evidence, and to understand that that evidence did not, in fact, say anything one way or the other about God or the way the universe was created.

Also, I notice that Europe has had no "downfall." After centuries of Christian devotion, after surviving two world wars and the holocaust, Europe is still there, its nations are still there, its cultures and societies and economies are still there.

Come to think of it, I can't think of ANY nation that has "fallen down" because of religious or spiritual belief, ever in history. It's always something to do with economics, or natural resources, or shifting demographics, or over-extension of military might. But I can't think of one example where religion in and of itself led to the downfall of a nation or culture or society or empire.

Can you?

[TankLV]

41. Then you aren't trying very hard, or are just trying to be obtuse.

The examples are overwhelming.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. name one

?

[pollock]

54. The United States, right now.

Falling down; not collapsing.
Bush declared, basically, that god wants Iraq demolished and controlled by the United States. That's falling down.

[Jacobin]

58. Here's one link. There are thousands if you'd google

Galileo Galilei formulated the basic law of falling bodies, which he verified by careful measurements. He constructed a telescope with which he studied lunar craters, and discovered four moons revolving around Jupiter. The Italian astronomer, mathematician, and physicist was educated in Florence, in Northern Italy, with which Arab Sicily had shared the study of such science as there was in his day. But Florence preferred literature to physics, so Galileo moved to Padua to teach to a multitude of approving students there. He later taught at Pisa and studied the laws of falling bodies, disproving Aristotle's view that the rate of a falling object is proportional to its weight

It was a Dutch optician's fitting of lenses to either end of a tube that led Galileo to improve on, and experiment with, the first crude telescope. With this instrument he applied his mastery of mathematics to a study of astronomy. It was because of his discoveries, and his failure to keep silent about them, that the 67-years-dead Copernicus was brought back into public discussion.

The subsequent "war on Galileo," that is, the attacks of the Roman Catholic Church on the science of Galileo (to a lesser extent the upstart Protestant Church vied with the Roman Church in orthodoxy) is told excellently in White's Warfare of Science With Theology. It is retold here to put to rest some late apologetics and misinformation. The conflict is an apt illustration of the inescapable irreconcilability of theological doctrine and science.
http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/archive/warongal.htm

Typical response.

I know not how to respond to you.

Have a good day.

[pollock]

60. Technically, the question was about the Bible itself.

so you're talking past each other.

[Jacobin]

64. Here ya go

The earth was seen as being flat with four corners (Ezekiel 7:11, Isaiah 41 , Revelation 7:1). An expanse or firmament, also called heaven, separated the waters below the earth from the waters above (Genesis 1:6-8, Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 5:8). The sun, moon and stars moved about in the firmament (Genesis 1:14-18). The earth was supported on pillars (1 Samuel 2:8, Psalms 75:3). Sheol, the abode of the dead, was a pit under the earth

[pollock]

65. hey, wasn't arguing against you.

[Jacobin]

63. Oh, here's what yer lookin for!

The earth was seen as being flat with four corners (Ezekiel 7:11, Isaiah 41:9, Revelation 7:1). An expanse or firmament, also called heaven, separated the waters below the earth from the waters above (Genesis 1:6-8, Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 5:8). The sun, moon and stars moved about in the firmament (Genesis 1:14-18). The earth was supported on pillars (1 Samuel 2:8, Psalms 75:3). Sheol, the abode of the dead, was a pit under the earth.






Other things about the condemnation of Darwin by fundies and related attempts by the church to confound and belittle scientists and otherwise to hold back the spread of any knowledge that challenged literal biblical interpretation.
http://www.twopaths.com/faq_BibleTrue.htm

[BrotherBuzz]

29. The downfall of the world will be Fundamentalism

I feel like painting with a broad paintbrush.

[opihimoimoi]

31. There is hope in the upcoming ET visit.

[BrotherBuzz]

34. LOL, I thought they visited once, already....

I am beginning to believe civilization is a disease from outer space. Hey, if they do visit again, let's get an operator's manual this time.

[opihimoimoi]

84. Nope, WE are the Disease. We Humans demonstrate the inability to manage

our own Planet responsibly. Xrist, we don't even know how to pick Good Leaders with accruacy. Instead we go for the BS spun by the PR Psyops brain washing Unit.

A manual?? Thats coming up soon from the ET guys coming soon. They will reveal the secrets of reaching the Stars far beyond our Milky Way. Are Humans Mature enough to comprehend Logic and Reason? Thats the prerequisite for Paradise.

Come, we set out the flares.

[jpgray]

30. I'd say indolence and ignorance beat out religion (nt)

[Nlighten1]

32. Agreed.

And I will take it one step further...the downfall of humanity will be religion.

[jus_the_facts]

33. Exactly....because religion is based on comparin' ourselves to perfection.

....and we are animals...NOT perfect beings...and untill this is accepted and taught as FACT instead of how we're a GODLIKE species..then we're doomed to repeat history instead of ever learning from it....religion is used as a scapegoat to absolve all responsibility for our actions by invokin' GOD's will instead of our own.

[BonjourUSA]

35. Actually, that's very frightening

[indigobusiness]

37. Spritual bankruptcy ...more likely

Materialism and God are like oil and water.

Materialism won.

[DerekG]

38. Religion has led to America's UPLIFTMENT, as well...

The fiery Christianity of the abolitionists--whether it be the pacifistic Garrison or the radical John Brown--was vital in freeing our brothers and sisters from bondage.

The Social Gospel was elemental in forging progressive legislative programs during the first half of the 20th century.

The Civil Rights movement was FUELED with religosity, whether it be the Islam of Malcolm X, or the Christianity of Dr. King.

And it ain't over.

[QC]

42. Nah, the problem is...

people who arrogantly believe they know what's best for everyone else, and they are found among both the theists and the antitheists alike, as this thread so amply demonstrates.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. The downfall of America will be ignorance and hate

thanks for contributing.

As someone around here used to say, this thread ain't nothin but shit.

[Az]

61. You are right (long list of quotes)

Ignorance and hate. Nasty things indeed. One should always remain open minded and accepting of others views. Unfortunately there are religious institutions (not all) that are teaching the exact opposite of this. They are organising around the idea that they alone have the truth and that all that disagree with them are evil.

Lets look at some quotes.

Christianity is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you, a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. -- John Ashcroft

Unique among the nations, America recognized the source of our character as being godly and eternal, not being civic and temporal. And because we have understood that our source is eternal, America has been different. We have no king but Jesus. -- John Ashcroft

We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe. -- Gary Bauer

God has ensured that those who question his existence, along with those who reject him out of hand, have not a shred of moral integrity in doing so... The Bible makes it clear that those who reject God outright, and those who claim to be sitting on the fence, are refusing to acknowledge what they know to be true. -- John Blanchard

The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God. -- Boy Scouts of America

The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship. -- Boy Scouts of America

We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America. -- Pat Buchanan

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God. -- George Bush

I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision. -- George W. Bush

The wall of separation said to have been erected by the First Amendment exists only in the mind or rather in the imagination of legal students smoking the opium of secularism. -- The Catholic World

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. -- Ann Coulter

One ecclesiastical denomination should not be given preference by the State over others. But theism should be preferred by the state over atheism. -- Kevin Craig

Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of "Where did I come from?" "Why am I here?" "Where am I going?" "Does life have any meaningful purpose?" -- Tom DeLay

Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity. -- Tom DeLay

Don't you understand, mister, you are royalty and God has chosen you to be priest of your home? -- Tony Evans

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being. -- Rev. Jerry Falwell

We're fighting against humanism, we're fighting against liberalism ... we are fighting against all the systems of Satan that are destroying our nation today ... our battle is with Satan himself. -- Rev. Jerry Falwell

The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country. -- Rev. Jerry Falwell

If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth. -- Jerry Falwell

AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals. -- Jerry Falwell

This is another step towards the secularization of the United States.... The frammers of our Constitution meant we were to have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. -- Billy Graham

I've heard they drink blood, eat babies. They have fires, they probably cook them. This is unbelievably wrong. -- Rev. Jack Harvey

This is war. -- Rev. Jack Harvey, threatening to run Wiccans off the military bases

Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work. -- Adolf Hitler

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people. - Adolf Hitler

I'm against anything atheists represent because I believe in God. -- Rep Alvin Holmes

Behind this judicial wall of separation there is a tyranny of lies that will fall... I say to you, my friends, let it fall! -- Fob James

The only way those Ten Commandments and prayer would be stripped from that Courtroom is with the force of arms. -- Fob James

A good butt-whipping and then a prayer is a wonderful remedy. -- Fob James

Under no circumstances would I ever vote for an atheist because they are terrible no moral code. -- Star Jones

If I had my way, I would have the Book of Genesis taught in all our elementary schools. -- Bill Keith

Rights come from God and only from God. -- Alan Keyes

The ACLU hates Christianity, the Christ of the Bible and we hate the ACLU. -- Rev. Mickey Kirkland

I'll tell you what is wrong with America. We don't have enough of God's ministers running the country. -- Rev. Tim LaHaye

I shall never be in full sympathy with our system of compulsory education until there is set up side by side with it a system of compulsory religion. -- Rev. W. D. Lewis

I could go on. But the point here is that there is reason for concern about religion. Not all religions are bad. Not all parts of all religions are bad. It is perhaps better to look warily towards institutions that insist their dogma is absolute and the only valid one. It is here that the trouble comes in. Liberalism implies accepting all views. This carries with it a hidden failing. How do we embrace a belief that everyone else is wrong and must be changed?

[dawn]

48. I think the downfall of the world will be religion...always has been.

Imagine the wars that would not have occured if not for organized religion.

And with people in power who are just dying to bring about the end times ala the Left Behind Series, religion could certainly mean the downfall of the world. it's truly scary.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. nonsense, I know a radio talk host who thinks the same thing about

not having enough religion. Your arguments sound equally banal.

[arwalden]

55. On The Whole... I Believe There Is Much TRUTH In That Statement

Others will counter by pointing out all the "good" religion has done for America, but it seems to me that any good was done to counter the EVIL that was originally taking place... all in the name of their god and their bible.

Considering all the greed, manipulation, controlling, bigotry, prejudice, violence, crimes, brainwashing, hatred, abuse, torture, war and murder that takes place in the name of the Christian god... I find it very difficult to find any good in Christianity.

We would be better off without it. (And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass so much.)

But... this is the world we live in and unfortunately Bush is a fundie who believes that he is a tool of his god to bring about the "end times" that are predicted in his bible. DANGEROUS DANGEROUS DANGEROUS.

He has absolutely NO incentive to act responsibly. His irrational belief only serves to guide him towards disastrous actions... all in the foolish belief that it's pre-ordained and part of the "master plan".

WHAT AN IDIOT! A FOOL!

He's insane you know? Quite honestly and LITERALLY... INSANE. He believes that his god speaks to him and tells him what to do. He believes that he can do no wrong because "god told him" what to do.

INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, yeah! I know. "Not all Christians are bad... blah blah blah." Sure, whatever. So where ARE those 'good-Christians"?? And what are they doing about all this? Why are they so ineffective? Why does the bigotry and slaughter continue?

-- Allen

Flame me if you want. I do not care. I already know who's going to do it, so flame away... it won't be any surprise to me... we've already gone through this before. I already know how little regard you have for me.

[TreasonousBastard]

85. I answered some of this...

in another thread started by the same person that's now locked.

Much of the evil that has been done in the name of religion has been done by those who perverted it and completely lost the messages those religions had. With or without religion, they would have undoubtedly acted the same, but may have had other rationalizations.

Most religions, including Christianity, are philosphical schools of thought which include some aspect of the supernatural. When whinging about the excesses and abuses of these religions, far too many seem to forget the underlying messages that most of the believers live by.

There are one and a half billion Christians in this world, and many of them are leading lives of love, peace, and charity just as Christ implored them to in the Sermon on the Mount. You rarely hear about them, though, since they are too busy building schools in Africa or running soup kitchens in East St. Louis to gas on about politics.

Those are the Christians who don't consider Pat Robertson or Fred Phelps to be among them.

[arwalden]

87. You Argue That The Evil Doers Would Have Done Evil Anyway...

... and that religion was just a means to an end (essentially)... but couldn't it also be argued that the good-doers you mentioned would be doing good anyway WITHOUT religion? Cannot good be done for the sake of the human condition and not in the name of gods?

I think it can.

Why are these "love peace and charity" believers so silent? Why do they do nothing? Why do they permit their religion to be represented by the likes of Phelps and Falwell and Robertson and the myopic and backward and REGAL 'gilded' institutions of some larger churches?

The world would be a much better place without people worshiping and believing in gods. (You do know that Bush* believes that he's a tool of his god. He 'hears' his god speaking to him and guiding him and telling him what to do. He is convinced that he can make no mistakes because of his divine guidance and inspiration. --- THAT'S FOOLISH and DANGEROUS. He's insane. Quite insane.)

-- Allen

[TreasonousBastard]

88. Yes, you make a good point...

people tend to lean one way or another in all sorts of things, and the "good" don't necessarily need a god to show them the way.

But, we all need some form of moral framework to live in, and religion has given us an epistemology and ethical system to work with. Secular philosophy does the same, but there is usually less authority about it. The mystical aspect of religion is very appealing, and does have quite a bit of value for many.

We are, after all, a seeking and wondering species, and many of us prefer to do our seeking and wondering in a spiritual context. This in no way excludes science, of course, for the truly spiritual, as opposed to dogmatists.

Quite frankly, I don't fully understand why the gasbags, charlatans, and hatemongers get all the air time. I suspect it's largely because the pitchmen, charlatans, and thieves are simply much better at it than the rest of us. They are also more newsworthy, in the "man bites dog" sense.

The Catholic church makes the news when a bishop screams about abortion or homosexuality, but little is ever heard from the Pax Christi people who have been working for peace for years, or the parish priest comforting the sick and dying, sheltering and feeding the homeless, or dealing with the realities of the unwanted pregnancies and homosexuals in his flock with love and compassion and trying to find a middle ground with the faith. These daily grinds are not worth the news-- just the pedophiles and the gasbags are what we hear about.

No, the world would not really be a better place without Augustine, Aquinas, Buber, Buddha, Confucious, Lao Tse, Mohammed, Tillich...

But, you are right about this-- it would be a far more agreeable place if the madman in the White House didn't listen to the Robertsons of the world and be deluded into thinking he was actually taking instructions from God. And blind belief is delusion for so many of those other fundies.

As Mark Twain noted, Christanity is a wonderful religion, it's just too bad there aren't all that many Christians around.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. And, then Mark Twain said..

"Man is the only animal to have discovered the ONE TRUE GOD...several of them."

[mvd]

59. No, not unless people like Bush..

..remain in power. Until now, we've been able to separate the fanatical aspects of religion from foreign policy. People like Bush lead already religious people astray. Again, the problem is not with religion - it's with the fanatics. I'm a Catholic and am very against the Iraq war. You can't generalize, even though I've never felt a need to be part of organized religion.

[pollock]

62. The problem is not religion?

Why don't philosophers get property tax deductions, for example?
Or motivate people to change public policy because of what "god" wants for us mortals?

[mvd]

66. I am a liberal Catholic

Yeah, right - I'd be like Bush. :eyes: Again, there are many Christians with a good heart. The problem is too many people see Falwell and say, that's a Christian. The word Christian needs to include liberal Catholics, Episcopalians, etc. And the word religion doesn't inherently mean "destroy the country or other countries because of what I believe."

One of my heroes, Kucinich, is an example of someone who can do good things in the name of religion.

[Hubert Flottz]

67. Amen to that!

I believe in the forces of Good and Evil! What we have in and around the White House now, is true EVIL!

[kvnf]

68. i think its all about death

I think American culture ignores the concept of death. American culture perpetuates this belief that if you somehow eat the right food, go on the right diet, drink the right drink, you can somehow live forever.
I think people cling to religion because the best thing it offers is this notion that you'll go to heaven after you die...in essence never really dying, but rather living on for eternity in some happy place.

Personally, I don't believe in that, but I think some people couldn't live their lives without it. As a consequence of having to cling to this notion of an afterlife, people agree to believe other central tennets of religion as well, because, hey, only believing in heaven and nothing else would kind of invalidate the whole thing, wouldn't it?

[mvd]

69. Now I think that's a good point

I believe in an afterlife, but in order to have that paradise you shouldn't be intolerant and bigoted. Not enough religious people realize that.

Religion will continue to cause problems (it has in the Middle East for centuries,) but I think people will evolve before all is lost in countries that are supposed to separate religion from their policies. I've always been the optimist. :-)

[pollock]

70. Cause problems?

Let's start in our own country. And Middle East has little or nothing to do with "religion." It's about control of land.

[mvd]

71. But people in the different religions are fighting for land

There's still a connection. They aren't fighting against royalty or anything like that.

[pollock]

72. Don't see it.

Not a theological debate is it?

[mvd]

73. I don't see what you're saying

Religion is all part of it. Surely there's animosity because of their beliefs. I edited my last post - see that.

[pollock]

74. Germany and France were christian nations.

Why did christian Germany invade France in WW2?
Religion is just part of culture; doesn't determine what a nation does politically, usually follows.

[mvd]

75. The cases aren't the same

The Middle East has Isreal and Muslim nations where culture has a lot to do with the problems. Maybe we're misunderstanding each other.

[pollock]

76. Oh, did I get you wrong?

You were not talking about conflict of different religions?
What did you mean about Middle East, then?
My point was that religion and culture are secondary to the actual politics of a nation: I mean not theory,but what it does.
Christian or whatever, nothing to do with war, peace, etc.

[mvd]

77. In that case I disagree

In the Middle East, I doubt Isreal would be fighting the Palestinians if they were all Jewish or all Muslim.

In the case of Germany, it was about them thinking they were a superior race.

Of course religion doesn't have to do with all wars, but sometimes it does.

[pollock]

78. No.

Germany and France(europe)all christian, didn't mean a thing:war is never about religion. It's about land and control of resources.
Everyone's religion says god loves you and don't kill for no reason; doesn't mean a thing.

[mvd]

79. We agree to disagree then

Fundamentalists have no problems thinking killing is ok in the name of their religion. The Crusades certainly had killing. Just one example.

Also, look at the "holy wars" that are called.

[pollock]

80. Yeah, if you don't want a discussion.

[mvd]

81. I feel I have made my case

We'd just go around in circles. No offense, but it's true at this point.

[pollock]

82. No problem on my part ending politely.

But you haven't provided much argument; why would I be offended?
You haven't said a thing as to why religion causes the conflict. Nor have you addressed my point that religion only follows the action of the nation.

[mvd]

83. I think I have said enough

It is obvious to me. I haven't seen much to persuade me from your argument, either.

I have to go, anyway. So let's call a truce.

[BiggJawn]

86. "Tempted by the Devil"???

Yeah, Flip Wilson used to say that..."Th' Devil made me do IT!"

Devils....Evil Spirits...Imps....Oh, yeah, sounds like the kind of logical, ordered system *I* wanna be associated with...

Been a while since I said this, so here goes...

READ CARL SAGAN'S "THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD"!!!! MAKE YOUR KIDS READ IT!!!

Whew! A little better now....

[catzies]

89. Downfall will be religion running the government

If I wanted to live in a theocracy I'd move to Tehran.