When Zinni spoke about containing Saddam, I thought of this statement.

[madfloridian]

Zinni was quite powerful and quite damning to the Bush administration. He is courageous.

His description of how we had been controlling Iraq for ages made me think of these remarks Dean made back in March. I get the deja vu all over again feeling.

From Meet the Press:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4515556/
SNIP..."MR. RUSSERT: Dr. Rice said that Saddam Hussein was the most dangerous regime in the world.

DR. DEAN: That was ridiculous. This is a pathetic old man who we'd been containing for 12 years by overflights. We had sanctions on him that were paralyzing him. It turned out that there were no weapons of mass destruction, as the administration--although the administration said otherwise. It turned out that there was no relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda or the killing of the 3,000 Americans at the World Trade Center, even though the administration tried to lead us in an opposite direction. The administration simply did not tell the truth about Iraq. The debate is not about whether we should fight terrorism. I supported the war in Afghanistan because I think we did the right thing in Afghanistan, although I think the conduct of the war is not being very well-managed, after the fact. But fighting Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism...."END SNIP

These statements need to be said over and over again by many people... lest we forget too soon what we have done. I am glad my Belgian friend sent me a copy of a peace rally we had here last year. He said to remember we had tried. I took the picture last year. He sends it to me when I get angry.

[LandOLincoln]

1. So MadFlor, tell us who was advising the good doctor on

foreign policy? Prior to September 2003, I mean?

[madfloridian]

5. Maybe the good doctor read the sites like DU, where we knew about this.

Maybe, who knows.
:shrug:

[LizW]

2. I love your picture

Love the signs. Love the faces of wise people who know lies when they hear them and know what is important in the world.

LOVE. PEACE.

[chelaque liberal]

3. What a bunch if hippies

Great photo. Keep peace alive!

[madfloridian]

6. Thanks, I appreciate that thought.

The group never got above 40 something. They are still meeting weekly, and there will be a Memorial Day service next Sunday. There will be pictures lakeside of the military who have died in Iraq. They are thoughtful, intelligent people who really care.

[Cleita]

4. Another kick for the left coast. n/t

:kick:

[keithyboy]

7. I think if you 'google' you will find Condi and Colon saying the same

BEFORE Bush decided to invade Iraq.

[keithyboy]

8. Here is one 'google' result that prove what Powell and Condi really felt

"Pilger uncovered video footage of Powell in Cairo on February 24, 2001 saying, "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."

Two months later, Rice reportedly said, "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

Powell boasted this was because America's policy of containment and its sanctions had effectively disarmed Saddam."

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=colin+powell+saddam+containment&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D9b57448f16173cbe%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3Dcolin%2Bpowell%2Bsaddam%2Bcontainment%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.smh.com.au%252Farticles%252F2003%252F09%252F23%252F1064082978207.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResults%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Farticles%2F2003%2F09%2F23%2F1064082978207.html

[madfloridian]

9. Thank God for Pilger. I had heard this on DU at one time, maybe 2002

I had looked for it since then, and I couldn't find it. I am emailing a copy of this to myself. Thanks. This is just horrid. I am feeling so sad about what we have done, and the lack of alarm toward it here. Sickening.

[maggrwaggr]

15. yes, the state department website link for that is right here

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2001/933.htm

[oblivious]

10. So Dean thought massacreing Afghanis was the right thing to do.

I supported the war in Afghanistan because I think we did the right thing in Afghanistan- Dr Dean

Bombing the shit out of probably the poorest and most defenceless country on earth, a people who had never harmed America, was the right thing to do.

Well, at least we can thank God this man will not be president of the United States.

[madfloridian]

11. Did he say bombing it was right? Or because Al Quaeda was there?

I doubt he believed we would be so ruthless. We are now turning Iraq into another Afghanistan.

Most Democrats thought invading Iraq was the right thing to do. I asked the candidates' campaigns the day the bombing started in Iraq....you know the shock and awe? They are were sorry for the killing, but they approved of the invasion.

[hellhathnofury]

12. Ya know...

people die in wars. Sometimes wars are necessary sometimes they're not. I think what we're doing in Afghanistan is necessary.

[oblivious]

13. Afghanistan had nothing to do with 911. NOTHING.

Well, it's been proven many times on DU that there was no link between 911 and Afghanistan, with even the head of the FBI himself having said in a speech they have no proof whatsoever linking 911 to Afghanistan. Newsweek reported that five of the alleged hijackers had been trained at secure US military facilities -- NOT IN AFGHANISTAN. The BBC and others have shown that 7 or 8 of the alleged hijackers are still alive.

Read the July 2001 article below and tell me they were not set up. When it happened, they were told to hand over Osama. They were willing to do so as long as some proof was presented. Then we found out later from TIME Magazine, that the head of the Pakistani ISI, the man who was breakfasting with your Senator Graham when the 911 attacks took place, the man who allegedly approved the money wired to finance the hijacking plot, was sent to negotiate the handover of Osama, but instead told Omar to resist.

Taleban Rejects U.S. Warning

By AFP (International Herald Tribune)

July 04, 2001

KABUL: KABUL The Taleban is not responsible for ensuring the security of American interests outside Afghanistan, Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmed Mutawakel said Tuesday.

'We are bound to ensure security within our own country,' Mr. Mutawakel said. 'We are not responsible for protecting U.S. security outside Afghanistan. The United States has so many enemies world-wide, especially in the Middle East, because of its despotic behavior.'
He added that it would be 'absolutely illogical' to assume the complicity of Afghanistan or 'somebody residing in Afghanistan' if American interests were attacked abroad.

The statement followed a warning by the U.S. ambassador in Pakistan on Friday that the Taleban would be blamed if the Saudi militant Osama bin Laden attacked U.S. interests.
(AFP)

http://www.iht.com/ihtsearch.php?id=25024&owner=(International%20Herald%20Tribune)&date=20001114010000

edit: format

[hellhathnofury]

14. Hah.

[oblivious]

16. Exactly!

I don need no goddam proof. My prezeedent, he don't need no goddam proof. He talks to Gawd, see. And if Gawd don tell 'im, his gut tells 'im. The FBI can't find any proof? Fuck dem. Gawd knows al qaida did it.

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East." ?George W. Bush to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas at the Aqaba summit

[hellhathnofury]

17. Alright then,

the way I read that, all it means is that they had a mix up with the identification. I don't find that very suspicious considering that any international terrorist worth his salt knows he needs fraudulent but believable identification. You don't have much proof there. Furthermore, you have no idea how the FBI identified the attackers and neither do I. Until then, I'll take the word of the UN, the world community at large and the United States Government. There is undeniable proof that Al Qaida in fact had massive infrastructure in Taliban controlled Iraq.

----
Al Qaeda claims responsibility for September 11
April 15, 2002 Posted: 9:02 PM EDT (0102 GMT)

(CNN) -- The Arab-language television aired a previously unseen videotape showing al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and his chief deputy Ayman Al-Zawahiri.

Bin Laden did not speak in the tape, but Al-Zawahiri said al Qaeda was responsible for the September 11 attacks.

The following is a translation of Al-Zawahiri's statement:
"This great victory that has been accomplished can only be attributed to God alone. It is not because of our skill or success but thanks to God it was possible. Allah almighty chooses those who are blessed by his mercy. Allah looks in the heart of his worshipers and chooses those who are qualified for his mercy, grace and blessing. Those 19 brothers who went out and gave their souls to Allah almighty, God almighty has granted them this victory we are enjoying now."
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/04/15/alzawahiri.transcript/
-----

Shit man, I don't know what to say. That seems to be Osama bin Laden's Number 2 taking claim for the 9/11 attacks.
:shrug:

EDIT:

Here's the BBC for ya:

Al-Qaeda man claims 11 September

The tape showed what appeared to be dead fighters

A recognised spokesman for Osama Bin Laden's militant al-Qaeda network has made the clearest indication yet that it was responsible for the 11 September attacks on America.

God ordered us to terrorize the infidels, and we terrorized the infidels

Sulaiman bu Ghaith
Sulaiman bu Ghaith said that al-Qaeda had managed to hit the United States "right on its doorstep".

He was speaking in an undated recording aired on Wednesday by a Saudi-owned TV network.

The tape also showed what appeared to be al-Qaeda fighters killed in Afghanistan.

The spokesman, who is among Washington's most wanted men, accused the US of "publicly fighting Islam".

Bu Ghaith said the US was "publicly fighting Islam"

"We have managed to attack the head of infidelity, who deliberately and openly declares his hostility to Islam day and night, in his own country," he said.

"God ordered us to terrorise the infidels, and we terrorised the infidels," he added.

The same broadcast - by the Middle East Broadcasting Corporation - showed old statements made by Bin Laden himself welcoming the suicide attacks, which killed about 3,000 people.

Two of Bin Laden's aides, Ayman al-Zawahiri and Mohammed Atef, also appeared in the video.

Atef, who was believed to have been killed in a US air strike on Kabul in November, is seen to say: "Liberating Palestine starts here."

Another tape was broadcast by the Qatari satellite channel al-Jazeera on Monday, in which al-Zawahiri described the attacks as a "great victory".

Al-Jazeera has promised to air the tape in full on Thursday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1936242.stm

[oblivious]

18. I'm afraid my last reply might have left you with the wrong impression.

I thought you were being sarcastic, sort of agreeing with me in a way, and I was just being a bit silly. I was not mocking you, but I'm afraid that's the way it seemed now that I read your second reply.

I notice the claims you quote are very vague. They obviously welcome the attack and claim it a victory, but they do not say that Osama masterminded it. And one thing that makes me very suspicious is that this al Zawahiri guy you quote mentions 19 hijackers. That tells me he knew nothing about the operation and was getting his information from news sources like the rest of us, because if he really was behind it, he would have known that at least 7 of those 19 alleged hijackers were not even on the planes, since they have subsequently been proved to be alive.

Also, while you seem convinced that these incredibly vague, cryptic quotes are evidence of guilt, you ignore Osama's clear and direct denials of his involvement. Almost like you NEED to believe.

The BBC's John Simpson said a source who had met Mr Bin Laden just two days ago said the Saudi dissident had been stripped of all of his complicated and sophisticated communications equipment.

An aide for Mr Bin Laden quoted him as denying he had planned the attack, but calling it a "punishment from Allah".

'I have no information about the attackers or their aims and I don't have any links with them,' the aide quoted Mr Bin Laden as saying.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1543135.stm

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:

'I have already said that I am not involved in the September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children, and other people. Such a practice is forbidden ever in the course of a battle.'

Source: BBC Monitoring Service

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=2392&TagID=2

Finally, I'd like to point out that the only evidence finally provided to justify the war against Afghanistan was provided byb the UK, not the US. In the dossier, this was the only evidence given to implicate Osama:

'There is evidence of a very specific nature relating to the guilt of bin Laden and his associates that is too sensitive to release.'

That's it. We've got enough proof to go to war, but we can't tell you what it is!!!!!!!!

The dossier also opened with this disclaimer: 'This document does not purport to provide a prosecutable case against Osama bin Laden in a court of law.'

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/binn-o06.shtml

Now doesn't that scare the hell out of you? They abandoned the rule of law. The single most important thing that sets your country apart from oppressive, authoritarian regimes around the world is the rule of law. But here, you accept your country and mine attacking a desperately poor, defenceless country, and in the process killing thousands and perhaps tens of thousands, based on a dossier that would not stand up in a court of law!!!!

I wasn't sympathetic to the Taliban at all, I acknowledge the danger that jihadi groups present to the U.S. and I am as pro-America as you can get. During the Clinton era and even the first 6 months of the Bush era, I defended the US against all criticism. I love the country and I still believe it is our best hope for a better world. But you went to war against Afghanistan, taking Canada along with you, with only the flimsiest of evidence, I realised something was very very wrong. It changed my attitude completely. Conservative to liberal. Apathetic capitalist to anti-war activist.

Something is wrong. We've been conned.

[stickdog]

19. You're right. But Dean was on record as supporting the Afghanistan

invasion as were ALL the Democratic candidates and most of the UN.

So I can't help but wonder why you are celebrating the fact that the next President of the US will have been in favor of BOTH Afghanistan AND Iraq.

[oblivious]

20. That's why I said I was pleased that Dean would never be president.

And I'm certainly not celebrating the fact that the next president will be just another war-monger. I don't follow the votes, but I understand Dennis Kucinich was against the Iraq invasion, so if I were American, he would be the only Democrat I would support.

As for most of the UN supporting the destruction of Afghanistan, they were misled. I don't think many of them really believed that allies would lie to them to get them to approve and participate in a war. They know now these people are capable of anything. I doubt they will make the same mistake again as long as the Blair and Bush people are in control of their countries.

Wasn't it lovely to see them laugh Powell and Straw out of town when they presented their dossier of lies to the UN Security Council? Oh, the humiliation!

[Kiliki]

21. Zinni needs to be quiet already....

and the media needs to stop giving him and his kind a platform to spew their issues.

Someone, somewhere, in the city of Washington DC is getting an elicit blowjob RIGHT NOW, and THAT is where we should be directing out collective investigative energies. All this talk about unjust and poorly planned wars is just an elaborate smokescreen to fool the American people into waving off the investigations, special counsel, congressional hearings, and impeachment process of politicans who commit the most dangerous act a man could commit. The act of receiving extramarital oral sex. Where the hell are our priorities people?!

[MrSlayer]

22. Puts me in mind of what Colin Powell said in Feb. 2001.

"...the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq, and these are policies that we are going to keep in place, but we are always willing to review them to make sure that they are being carried out in a way that does not affect the Iraqi people but does affect the Iraqi regime's ambitions and the ability to acquire weapons of mass destruction, and we had a good conversation on this issue."

And What Dr. Rice said in April of that same year.

"Saddam does not control the northern part of the country," she said. "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt." April 2001.

Video of both here.