I think we're winning hearts and minds

[trof]

on edit: Or at least Bush is "loosing" them.
Read this morning's e-mail exchange with a true conservative friend of mine. (sorry my mailwasher doesn't seem to be working)
Don't quit working now, but if Charlie's coming over, a LOT are coming over.

trof -
> I saw Hillary interviewed on FOX yesterday and was, I have to admit,
> very impressed. She looks and sounds immeasurably better without her
> husband around. I think her views are much closer to mine than the
> French looking candidate; does he have any views beyond the immediate?
> You know I always thought Hillary was going to be nominated in Boston -
> now I hope so.
>
> As a Viet Nam vet, I had a really bad feeling when are troops suddenly
> stopped and pulled back after they had Faluja surrounded and Sader
> trapped. Washington management overruling the generals in the field
> therby rendering the casulties meaningless. That was the last straw for
> Bush with me.
>
> I will be watching the speech tonight with anticipation and baited
> breath (because there is no Hockey playoff game).
Charlie

Charlie:
Re: Hillary and you...hold on...I'll be damned! A pig just flew by the
window. hee

Don't you know watching Faux News is bad for your brain?
Did you catch Gen. Zinni on 60 Minutes last night? I wonder if that was
Bush's "John Dean" moment?

It's interesting (telling?) that
1. Bush's speech tonight will be from the Army War College in Carlisle, PA
and
2. The Big 4 networks won't carry it.

I'll send you a couple of "boots on the ground" pieces. What's happening to
our troops amounts to war crimes.
trof

trof:
Pigs are flying and I can't help but think that if Bush can loose me,
> he's lost the election. But, please not Kerry.
>
> I favor abortion rights; I favor gay civil unions and I can take gay
> marriage; they are only two percent after all and they are citizens;
> and I favor a strong safety net with out getting specific, but I don't
> like career welfare recipients; I dislike government bureaucrats
> because there are three of them for every legitimate job, I hate the
> teachers because they have turned the government schools into a sick
> joke from the envy of the entire world just 50 years ago. I believe
> that going into Iraq was the right thing to do because the civilized
> world absolutely can not let one of these countries get nuclear
> weapons, but I am disappointed that we are not also in Syria and Iran
> by now, and I believe the Bushies are beginning to horribly mismanage
> the war.
>
> Where does that place me on the political spectrum, I don't know, but
> I often find myself agreeing with Dem Party positions, but unable to
> support them because the D's are teachers and bureaucrats and labor
> bosses, ie. the government. I also don't like how the D's can so
> easily put politics ahead of what is so often manifestly in the best
> interest of the country.
>
> I am a registered Independent and perhaps that is where I belong. See
> what you can do in Boston to get us Hillary or Dean instead of J F'in
> K.
>
> Confused regards - Charlie

[barbaraann]

1. I talked to a Republican yesterday who has just about had it.

His daughter was sent to Iraq and NEVER GOT AMMUNITION FOR HER HUMMER-MOUNTED MACHINE GUN THE ENTIRE EIGHT MONTHS SHE WAS IN IRAQ! He said "She's NOT going back." Also, he is wondering where the WMD's are.

This man couldn't bring himself to say he would vote for Kerry and there wasn't a chance he's even going to consider voting for Nader, but I honestly don't think he will be voting for Bush.

Has any country in the history of the world ever sent troops into battle without ammunition? I just can't fathom how they could do this and now I'm starting to wonder if it was intentional.

I spent about 15 minutes trying to convert this man and my husband thinks I succeeded. It was hard to tell because Bush's performance has seriously damaged his pride and I think he will keep a decision to vote for Kerry a secret from the world if he does decide to do it.

[liberalitch]

2. Fuck the guy who hates teachers.....

Sorry, but I'm bored of all of these anti-intellectuals who want to turn the USA into a bunch of yabos.... and my students into their peasantry....
I'll show you a terrorist.... increase my class size or reduce my benefits one more time and I'll give you a mullah that'll make you shake in your boots. I'll incite these kids to riot they're more loyal to me than to this government anyday.
They all know what THIS means and that it pertains to them.... I told 'em so:
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shallseem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

... i know the point is that someone is coming around... but they better be careful... after all when john kerry is elected their next tax cut will be added to my salery instead.

[IrateCitizen]

3. C'mon! We all know teachers are setting education policy!

</sarcasm>

As an aspiring 2nd generation teacher (both my parents AND my wife already are), I too am sick and tired of people scapegoating teachers as the cause of everything that is wrong with educational policy today.

I'm happy for getting people not to vote for Bush, but if I were on the receiving end of dealing with this guy, I'd be tempted to tell him to piss up a rope for making such an ignorant statement as he did about teachers.

[trof]

5. I didn't edit out anything.

Obviously I don't agree with all he says.
He's not one of "us", but he's not one of "them" any more either.
I'll take all I can get.
If enough Charlies just bitch and stay home, I think the repugs are in for a rude (and long overdue) awakening.

[IrateCitizen]

7. I never said you did edit anything out, or that you agree with him

I'm just saying that I find it extremely difficult to keep my mouth shut when I find such ignorant platitudes coming out of others' mouths (and keyboards).

My immediate reaction is to challenge them to produce concrete instances of HOW the teachers are ruining education, followed up with their concrete plan of how to fix it. Most of the time, their plans on fixing it are straight from the Rush handbook, so they are easy enough to shoot down quite mercilessly.

[liberalitch]

6. teacher?

or terrorist?
What grade?
what subject?
I teach Social Studies to 10 -12 graders....
I have registered 85 to vote this year..... mostly black, all anti-bush....
I did register one republican kid.... he didn't think I would.
When he got his registration card he said "Ms. Liberalitch the fact that you, who are obviously a liberal registered a conservative to vote says something.... i'm not sure I'll know what until I'm older, but it says something."
I thought it was cute. :-)
all I could say was "Go on adam with your little GOP self"

[IrateCitizen]

8. Response

I'm getting my Masters of Arts in Science Education, and will be teaching HS Physics (and most likely mathematics as well). I already have an engineering degree, so this is the quickest way for me to get into teaching.

My wife teaches 8th grade science, and is also getting a guidance counselor certificate.

My parents are retired elementary schoolteachers.

[liberalitch]

9. awesome!

welcome to the trenches! :-)
to usurp use a gay rights movement slogan.... Be loud and proud!

[sangh0]

11. From one front line, to another, eh?

I've got to give you your props. You've got guts. No easy jobs for you.

[trof]

12. Good for you!

[Lisa0825]

4. your subject line is exactly what I was going to say.

What a royal jackass that guy is!

[trof]

10. More about Charlie.

Charlie flew P-3s on coastal patrol in Viet Nam.
We flew together in our airline days.
He's a teacher now.
Yep, in retirement he teaches classes at an aviation "university".
He obviously has "issues" with today's education. That's up to him.

I think he's fairly typical of the group of old-time repubs who voted for Bush*. They have a lot of emotional and prideful capital invested in Bush*, and it's just KILLING them to see it going down the drain. They thought if they could just get rid of the hated Clinton, and his hand picked successor, everything would be fine.

And not it's not. Things are very unfine. And now they know they were wrong and this is very painful.

I was kind of surprised that everyone jumped on the teacher attack, and no one mentioned the Iraq nukes. I took him to task on that.
Didn't mean to get everyone's blood pressure up. Just wanted to share what (to me) is encouraging news.
:hi:

[cclark401]

13. I think it's sad that

these people want to rant about teachers. I taught for several years (7th grade math) and loved every minute of it. (OK I did have some bad moments). Now I'm in charge of the state/federal mandated testing that occurs in our district, and am about to be placed as an Assistant Principal (found out today!).

In America we offer education to everyone, not just the bright children. (That's the way it should be in my opinion.) So when our ed. system gets compared to other countries systems the comparisons are not fair. Sure we could do better, but I agree w/ an earlier poster... we need to reduce class size and pay educators more!!!!

[calimary]

14. I think your point is spot-on - that these folks thought all they had to

do was close the door on the Clinton era and things would be just ducky. And MAN-oh-MAN were they wrong! But they bet the ranch and everything else they had on it. It's a pride thing now. Lots of people cannot bear to admit they made a mistake. And this isn't just any ol' garden-variety mistake. This is the MISTAKE OF THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY. This regime is liable to set all of America back a generation or more. We have SO ungodly much to live down because of these damnable schmucks. ALL of America's collective face looks like bush's right now - bruised, bloodied, scarred and scabbed. All thanks to him and his oily, greedy, arrogant, vindictive, power-hungry, short-sighted, narrow-minded, delusional "policies." I hope they're proud. Every last one of them. Because this disaster has THEIR names on it, too, if they were stupid enough to be taken in by him.

I hope they know they're wrong. I fear for the folks who still think things are basically okay. It's like the lady whose radio show I was on, over the weekend. She, too, spouted the same republi-CON pablum about - "well, we're just not hearing all the GOOD things that are happening in Iraq!" Denial runs mighty deep. And it is equally hard to admit you've a) made a huge mistake and b) have been played for a sucker. THAT, I think, is the big stick in their craw. Some of them will NEVER admit they made a mistake, or that they were had. That takes guts and true adulthood, which is asking more of some of these folks than they're capable of.

And on another subject - they damned well better not attack teachers. If only because their precious adorable perfect First Stepford Wife is a former teacher. How dare they?