Bush* epileptic?

[trof]

Chatting with a doctor friend this morning.
She says his actions described in Woodward's book, staring uncomprehendingly into space, speaking in no known language (babbling/tongues), the "pretzel" incident, the "bike" incident would be typical behavior for someone suffering petit mal seizures.
It would also explain the twice daily (unknown type) medications he is said to take.

She says you usually don't go unconscious with petit mals (just kind of go blank and lose track for a few seconds or a minute), but sometimes you do. Her son has a similar affliction which is controlled quite well with medication.

In fairness, I'll report that she also says that such condition shouldn't preclude service as president of the U.S. I'll also say that although she thinks Bush* is a disaster, she is a very kind woman who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[Fridays Child]

1. Hmm...interesting hypothesis.

But, even if he does have a seizure disorder, I still believe that he's an active alcoholic, to boot.

[molly]

2. I worked with a guy that had petit mal

we would be having a conversation and his face would just go blank - it was like when you hit pause on your DVD. He could not have a driver's license. He took medication, but he still had "attacks".

[Az]

3. It fits recent patterns

It would also tie in his religious mania. Epilepcy has a history of giving its victims very strong "religious" episodes. There are a number of studies on this including the higher frequency by which epileptics "commune" with god.

[loyalsister]

48. Full of fallacy

The truth is, seizures have a history freaking people out.
Epilepsy was early on known as the "sacred disease" and the response of people to the suffer was that they were having a sacred religious episode or overcome by some kind of demon.
Hypocrates was trying to treat them, and was convinced that the disorder was physical.

[Merlin]

49. True. However, it WOULD explain desparation for a "higher power"

Epilepsy must be terrifying to the sufferer. It surely creates a sense of willingness to embrace religious zealotry as a means of bargaining with Providence for reprieve.

[TheRedMan]

4. Why would he hide it?

I am not saying your theory does not fit the facts, it does. I am just not clear on why on earth Shrub would want to hide epilepsy. My wife is epileptic, and is very well controlled, and it does absolutely nothing to inhibit the rest of her life (not that all epileptics are so lucky).

And really, I think it would be tremendously to his advantage to make it public because that would really throw a lot of his more personal critics into a very negative light. Not to mention the opportunity to educate the nation.

Oh, side note: just use the word "seizure." Don't say "attacks" or "episodes" or any other euphemism. The euphemisms make it sound worse than they are, not to mention they aren't even the correct words.

[Az]

7. It doesn't fit the repub tactic of projecting a strong leader

Its a weakness in their eyes. And a mental one. It would not sell well to the public.

[Bunny]

44. It is NOT a mental illness.

It's a physical disruption of brain activity. There's no mental illness inherently involved in epilepsy or other seizure disorders. Some people with mental disorders CAN also have seizures, but certainly not everyone with seizure disoders has a mental illness.

[Az]

45. I was addressing the perception

This is the motivation for hiding this disorder. It is percieved as a mental flaw. Politics is rarely concerned with the truth and usually concerned with perceptions.

[Lisa]

46. especially among his crowd ...

Some fundamentalist Christians believe that God punishes or rewards people directly -- so if you're afflicated with an ailment (be it dyslexia, epilepsy, paralysis, or an addiction) it's because of God's will. Likewise, if you're rich, God loves you; and if you're poor, it must be because of something you did.

I know it sounds bizarre, but some of my mother's friends have this kind of attitude. They shunned one acquaintance after she was diagnosed with cancer.

So I can imagine that if Bush's people could get an advantage from implying that their guy is disadvantaged (e.g. portraying Al Gore as an unfair bully for "picking on him" when asking questions about his lack of experience and understanding) but without actually admitting to a learning disability (or other "flaw"), they'd do it.

Bush has never actually admitted to being an alcoholic, though his supporters gush on about how strong-willed he was, giving up the bottle like that.

[Carni]

12. No offense to epileptics...

But as far as I am concerned that condition SHOULD prevent a person from being pResident.

The job is too important and to have people fading in and out mentally with no warning.

I would imagine that is why bushit would hide hois condition!

[The empressof all]

20. You are correct--however...

My husband also has epilepsy. Like your wife his seizures are controlled well with medication. As you know however there continues to be a great deal of mis-information about this condition. What astounds me still is that folks (even people here at DU)continue to think of it as a mental illness that affects ones judgment and intelligence. The reality is that people with epilepsy have a wide range of abilities-just like the rest of us. Having epilepsy does not automatically mean that you can not drive, work, have a family or even become President. If Bush has epilepsy he is still an evil bastard--however please cut out the epilepsy bashing here.

[Az]

25. There are still problems

Post Seizure conditions can leave a person in a highly disassocaited state. Their emotional focus shifts drastically during this period. And there can be delusions of epiphanies created by the chaos of activity in their brain after the event.

Because the brain works by emotional association of experience these emotionally charged states can have a great deal of impact on an individual. They can become fixated on irrational things due to these exeperiences. This holds true even when they have cleared the post seizure phase.

It should also be noted that the severity of these events is different for each person. So basing an impression of what George's theoretical epilepsy be like on your impressions of your wife's epilepsy may be completely off the mark.

[TheRedMan]

38. A lot of things CAN happen. Most DON'T

The "post-seizure" period is typically measured in minutes, and, again, from personal experience it is like watching a person's brain "reboot." You see different things come online, like motor skills, memory, higher thinking, etc. This normally takes about 15-20 MINUTES. Typically, by the next day, a lot of the memory of what happened after the seizure event is lost, usually around 12-20 hours or so on either side of the seizure.

That said, who cares?

A lot of people experience a strange procession of emotions in the post-coital period. Also after near-death experiences. Also after ordinary sleep. We all have times when we are not at our best, and just because someone else's are clearly delineated does not mean that they are unfit.

I will agree that it is POSSIBLE that Bush could have an impaired capacity to serve as a result of epilepsy, were he epileptic, but I would also expect you to agree that it is PROBABLE that it would not. I think we can all agree that a lack of intelligence would point more strongly to his inability to govern.

Plenty of people get to be very religious without neurological disorders, you know.

Oh, and to help you along with you knowledge of epilepsy, don't put spoons in anyone's mouth during a seizure.

[Az]

41. I wouldn't vote for someone that was experiencing frequent NDEs

An NDE is not exactly a common occurrence. It doesn't really merrit concern in this case.

The emotional impact of sleep is no where near the level of a post-seizure phase. Yes it is like rebooting the brain. Very much so. But during that unstructured phase distortions can be introduced. Now while this in no way makes them any less of a person it does introduces factors that CAN have a potential effect on their descision making process.

It is not just the epilepsy itself. But how the person deals with their epilepsy. Having the condition is not a predestined path to foaming at the mouth religious zealotry. Many people are quite able to seperate the issues in their own mind. But many are not.

In the case of whether a person is suitable for the Presidency I would recommend basing that opinion on their behaviour. Having epilepsy does not preclude their ability to be president but it certainly raises a flag to examine it a bit closer.

In the case of George it may go some way to explain some of his idiosyncracies. He may be an example of some of worse aspects of epilepsy. But he is not all epileptics and they should not be judged by his representation (if indeed that is the case).

[trof]

5. This brings the question:

Is this something the public should know about a candidate?
Seems we want all the pertinent medical we can get about our chief executive.
Also...I'm sure no Bush* apologist, but could this explain why he didn't show up for his flight physical? The condition had been discovered and he could no longer fly? "They" wanted to keep it hush-hush?
Pass the Reynolds Wrap.
:tinfoilhat:

[BlueEyedSon]

6. Corroboration from source of questionable reliability

"At some time in the past, according to both (redacted) and (redacted) the President suffered what one of his aides called "a very minor seizure" and as a result of this, the President has a very difficult time following any unscripted conversations. For this reason, his staff carefully and aggressively protect the President from "unexpected" questions that he is not capable of answering."

"The President takes oral medication at least twice a day according to (redacted) because of an unspecified "indisposition' and this subject is strictly off limits for any casual staff conversation."

"At one point during a staff conference, the President stood up and began to speak in an unknown language. Mr. Rove was able to stop the President and get him to resume his seat. It was reported by (redacted) hat for a period of time (about fifteen minutes) after this incident, the President appeared to be 'somewhat confused and very inarticulate.'"

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a887.htm#002
scroll down to "THE MADNESS OF KING GEORGE"

[Spazito]

8. I remember the episodes from West Wing where it was discovered...

the President had a disease that had been covered up. Given that many of the people that work on the series are people that previously worked at the White House under Clinton, I was wondering if there was knowledge of something like this re bush? If bush has epilepsy, which I think, given his many "accidents", is very possible, could these West Wing episodes been simply mirroring what is the truth?

[sui generis]

9. absolutely

yes. I lived with one for a while -- on tegritol, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, trouble speaking in public, dislexia, basica meanness, mixed metaphors, poor cognitive function, occasional seizures that left raspberries on face, and, whether medicine induced or not, a sociopath. (hey, I get humanity points for giving it ten years)

But yes, the similarities are all there -- it's just that Bush doesn't want to be seen as physically weak, hence the made up heroic bicycle ride foisted upon us by McClellan or Hughes. Add to that, the guy has arthritis in his hips and knees and he is starting to bloat like Rush on oxycontin and vicodin (well duh), and the frequent use of the brain-vacant "uh" even when repeating his own name - yes, our great pretzeldent is a fritz-brained painkiller addict who can't even stay seated in a recumbent stationary bicycle with a seatbelt and airbag. Is anyone surprised?

[blm]

10. Several people I know suffer seizures from past excessive cocaine use

and I wouldn't doubt that's the case with Bush.

[bloom]

14. hmmm

that would seem like something to "hide" (for Bush*) more than epilepsy IMO.

Being self-induced, etc.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

23. I knew you were a party animal!

:)

[blm]

31. Nah...I was never into drugs....

drugs ruin your looks and make you sound like an idiot when you're around others, so it was a nobrainer that vanity won out. Plus, I didn't like the taste.

Pot is a different story....me like...too bad I haven't had any in over 5 years.

[Veggie Meathead]

11. I have a son who was diagnosed with epilepsy at a very young

age ( when he was 3).He is 14 now.He suffers from these attacks that
makes him go blank and he stares at things.This is what is called an
absence seizure.He takes medication (Depakote) twice a day.Most of the time his seizures are controlled but sometimes all of a sudden he will get an attack that makes him fall.It is at these times that he has had scars on his face and arms and knees that llok surprisingly similar to Bush's.

If this is indeed the malady affecting Bush, I feel a great sympathy for him.I wish he would come out in the open .This would not merely have the effect of quieting his critics who call him stupid but will
educate many Americans who are not aware of the devastating effects of epilepsy on children.

[Lexingtonian]

13. yep

As some neurologist has pointed out, it explains his wierd record with the TANG- they took him off flight duty. (There are two or three threads about 10 pages back in GD about this- the one about Topamax is probably the most informative. It seems like a good candidate for the medication that makes him seem drunk alot of the time.)

The deal with temporal lobe epileptics is that many/most have a personality change to religiosity and such. Bush had something of the kind in the early to mid '80s.

Epilepsy is a also associated with FAE, fetal alcohol effects. I think W has a variety of neurological problems that fit to FAE, beyond epileptic stuff. Tics, dyslexic, and autistic behaviors. Arguably his face looks a bit like those of kids with FAS relative to, say, George Sr.'s and Jebbie's faces.

Babs really shouldn't have hit the bottle while preggers with him. I'll dig up the links on FAS/FAE- I posted them on some thread about a week and a half ago- if you like.

[seemslikeadream]

15. Yes please

There is something wrong with him. It's very troubling, he gives off vibs that I can not endure, I honestly have to turn away.

[Veggie Meathead]

17. I am sorry that you feel this way about a person who is

afflicted with a disease.Just as for my son who has endured
humiliating taunts since his childhood, I feel a sense of great compassion for Bush.It is immaterial he is the President or that he has committed many evil deeds.He is still a human being and if our diagnosis in this thread is correct, he is entitled to our
respect and compassion.

[seemslikeadream]

26. My feelings about bush have nothing whatsoever to do with a

disease. I'm sorry I left you with that impression. He is an evil person. I have great compassion for those that deserve it. I can't wasted my EMPATH on those who don't, it wouldn't be right.

I had a grandson who had numerous birth defects,


george bush is responsible for over 800 soldiers lives and countless Iraqi deaths. I HAVE NO RESPECT OR COMPASSION FOR HIM!

Haiti is in turmoil because of him. Do you really have compassion for someone that is responsible for this



EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...
HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...
BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE

LET AMERICA BE AMERICA AGAIN

http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html



Let America be America Again...by Langston Hughes


Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?
Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.
The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--
Who made America,
Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--
The steel of freedom does not stain.
From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,
We must take back our land again,
America!

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

[July]

40. An epileptic can be president and deserves compassion. BUT

Whether Bush suffers from epilepsy or something else, it is of concern to the rest of us if, unlike many -- most? -- epileptics, he cannot function well enough to do his job. If he is taking medication, it's not helping him enough. Furthermore, if some of his behavior is caused by seizures rather than by pretzels and bicycles, he's lying (surprise!) to make himself look more in control than he actually is, and he's also doing a disservice to anyone with the same illness (on the assumption that he IS ill) by acting as if he should be ashamed of it and hiding it.

If he needs medical help, he should get it. If he can't function fully, what's he doing in a demanding and stressful job? If he CAN function, why would he lie about seizures (again, assuming there is a medical cause to the behaviors and accidents we've been talking about)?

As a human being he deserves compassion. I have a hard time coughing up any respect for him, though.

All please note the many "ifs" here. I have no idea whether he's an epileptic or not; I'm just speculating about the implications if he is.

[notadmblnd]

32. What was it his beloved sister died from?

nt

[NMDemDist2]

35. leukemia

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072699.htm

[T Bone]

16. Could be, so can we call him *Julius Seizure* now ?

JCaesar was the first emporer with this malady. Least that we know about.

[Veggie Meathead]

18. I resent your joke about a genuinely afflicted person. For your

information there are several million children with this affliction
in our country alone who are voiceless to do deal with ignorant
people like you.

[notadmblnd]

33. At this point, we don't know if he is truly afflicted

all there has been here is speculation. The other thing that happens here a lot is GW gets made fun of. Most people here kinda live for it i.e we dont like him!

If reading what people have to say about the pResident here offends your sensibilities, perhaps you've come to the wrong place.

everything about bush is fairgame in my book, even his alledge illnesses.

[BiggJawn]

42. Granted, but those "several million children"...

...aren't destroying the world, are they?

Instead of getting resentful at someone here making a joke at the pretzeldent, perhaps you should vent your spleen on that same pretzeldent, who if he DOES have this affliction, is doing more damage to "The Children" by hiding it than being an open "role model"...

Oh, and I'm not "ignorant", I'm Just. Plain. Mean.
Deal.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

19. it's emperor

[The empressof all]

22. Please educate yourself

And stop making hurtful and offensive jokes- It is not necessary here.

[T Bone]

50. I know plenty about epilepsy

WAY more than any of the general public.
I stand by my joke, and laugh again.

[sui generis]

27. kudos

sorry if some people on this board skulk about looking to be offended. the fact is nobody is making fun of W for having seizures. It's the fact that he's hiding having seizures by claiming to choke on pretzels and falling off of heroic bicycle rides that has us mocking him. Got it? Now let's everyone take their chips back off their shoulders.

[seemslikeadream]

28. Not everyone deserves empathy

I'm sure someone in this crowd suffered from an ailment.


Silhouetted corpse of African American Allen Brooks hanging from Elk's Arch, surrounded by spectators. March 3, 1910. Dallas, Texas.

Tinted lithographed postcard. 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 in.

Printed inscription on border, "LYNCHING SCENE, DALLAS, MARCH 3, 1910". Penciled inscription on border, "All OK and would like to get a post from you. Bill, This was some Raw Bunch."


This postcard, addressed to Dr. J.W.F. Williams, LaFayette, Christian County, Kentucky documents the sentiments of one lunchtime spectator.

"Well John - This is a token of a great day we had in Dallas, March 3, a negro was hung for an assault on a three year old girl. I saw this on my noon hour. I was very much in the bunch. You can see the negro hanging on a telephone pole. "

more
http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

[sui generis]

36. suffering from ailments

does not excuse one from being an asshole though. We all have burdens to bear, especially if honesty about our frailties can be considered a burden.

I really didn't get all the rest of your post. I haven't lynched a negro . . .uh, ever. Are you sure it was appropriate to the topic?

[seemslikeadream]

37. Oh I'm truly very sorry

That was not directed at you. I used it as an example of people who do not deserve any empathy at all. There's plenty of them.

[seemslikeadream]

43. And bye the bye

since you remarked

Now let's everyone take their chips back off their shoulders.

I figured you had

[NMDemDist2]

34. Alexander the Great is reported to be an epileptic also EOM

[Stephanie]

21. "speaking in no known language" - Would someone w/ Woodward book pls post

Would someone please post the relevant excerpt from Woodward on this. This is absolutely shocking and last night was the first I had heard of it, despite seeing Woodward on numerous interviews and reading excerpts from the book. I'd really like to see what Woodward wrote about this. It's incredibly shocking, isn't it?

[Oddman]

24. The only seizures this guy is suffering from

are of the Jack Daniel's variety . . .

[peacetalksforall]

29. I'm going to rant

about something I've been saying for a long time..we should not focus all our attention on him.

He is a front man, whether afflicted with this or that.

If you can come up with an answer about why he was selected by his handlers when they knew his background from drugs by doctors or dealers combined with a playboy life to a radical born-again - then you will know that our problem is with his handlers.

It has been obvious that he doesn't have the educated capability to plan for the U.S. - he is a cheerleading, frat boy, wheeler dealer, video game player who detests any kinds of betrayal and will go after disloyalty with a vengeance and who does value corporate-banker-media-military dominance if explained to him.

Focus on his handlers. They can find someone else, but their agenda does not change.

So, they picked the wrong person in the end, but they got a lot of mileage out of him.

Focus on the hypocrisy of the string pullers, but most importantly their agenda.

[Wapsie B]

30. It was posted here yesterday

that maybe these supposed seizures are coming from all those years of hard living. All that hooch and coke can do that to you. His body may be shutting down. He may not be any healthier than dickie.

[TheRedMan]

39. Recommended reading for all

http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/

Please, please, read the information as completely as possible, and try to spend some time reading the message boards. It would be VERY good of you to have a full understanding of epilepsy before you go too crazy in any direction here.

Thanks.

[Merlin]

47. READ THIS THREAD! It is astounding and fascinating.

I think it is highly possible this theory explains Bush.

My only question would be whether these are epileptic seizures or whether, as some posters noted, it's possible they are the consequence of cocaine abuse. Anybody have more info about that?