Dean supporters, why do you support Dean?

[Cointelpro_Papers]

I used to support Dean wholeheartedly, then I found Dennis Kucinich, and I'm inbetween joining the Dean Maching or the Kucinich Kamp.

I liked Dean for his compative nature, and his passion against injustices. He is a pragmatist, and was one of the few candidates that didn't support the war. But Dean also believes in the Death penalty, voted for the Patriot ACT, and thinks it doesn't need to be repealed.

While he possesses many qualities, he also possesses a few that I don't like. And while Kucinich has all the qualities I like in Dean, he goes further and capitalizes and the things I don't like about Dean, and does things I like. So Kucinich, as I see him is a more liberal form of Dean, or is Dean a more central for of Kucinich.

What is it that Dean does to seperate himself from Kucinich?

[Vis Numar]

1. You don't care about Dean

just another misleading thread title.

[killbotfactory]

2. Dean didn't vote for the Patriot act.

He couldn't. He's also said that he would repeal the unconstitutional parts of it (the searching records without warrant stuff).

[Cointelpro_Papers]

23. Actually, he supports the PATRIOT ACT,

but not how Ashcroft is using it!@!!

[killbotfactory]

25. No, that would be Kerry and Edwards

Both continue to support the Patriot Act, and say the only problem is that Ashcroft is in charge. Dean would remove the unconstitutional parts.

[dajabr]

3. You like Kucinich...

Great! Why even mention Dean, and distort his stance on the issues? I think I know why...

[caledesi]

4. Just watch a video of him and you will understand.

No one in the pack "plays" like Dean.

[Egnever]

5. Its exactly this kind of dishonesty

that turns me away from kucinich and kerry. I realize that it is not them making these leading posts but that fact that the suporters seem to keep doing it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As far as Dean goes its his openness and frankness that draws me to him like a moth to a bulb. His blog is amazing! I saw his campain mamager address at least four different peoples questions today alone.

This is huge in my eyes it gives more than lip service to the notion of being for the people/ It is actual contact with the people.

Besides that I like his initiative. He came out on the liberia situation before the president for gods sake! And made bush look like he was agreeing with him! These are all small steps but together they lead to a giant leap!

[dajabr]

10. You have just hit on one of THE keys...

that makes his candidacy so compelling. Trippi and Dean have been corresponding with the supporters there (and elsewhere)for Months! Not just lip-service either. Complaints/questions/helpful hints are taken seriously and are acted upon. This type of interaction really sets them apart and give everyone a feeling that Dean is THEIR candidate - as opposed to the corporations. It really is "People-powered Howard."

Thanks for putting up the med-marijuanna post earlier - I was hoping someone would after I saw it the other day. It's a perfect example of what we're talking about.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

27. What are you talking about?

Because I said that they both have faults, that makes me un-liberal, and un-Kucinich, and un-Dean.

Where did I personally attack any of the candidates, where did I even make fun of them? It's nice that you can compare me to some ludocris example, when you have no reason for it.

[AnAmerican]

17. So you assume the original poster

is a Kucinich supporter?? I did not see it that way.

The quote "I'm inbetween joining the Dean Maching or the Kucinich Kamp." is pretty clear. I think the poster is undecided right now.

Please refrain from making assumptions.

You like Dean. That is cool with me. I would rather have you voting Dean than say, Lieberman. My point is please do not accuse Kucinich supporters in general of making "dishonest" posts.

There may a few, just like there are a few in the Dean camp who act that way but, for the most part, both candidates supporters are simply trying to get their chosen candidates message out.

The last thing this campaign needs is a pissing contest between the Dean people and the Kucinich people.

You have your reasons for liking your guy, we have our our reasons for liking ours. Let's just leave it at that.

Both candidates bring alot to the table. Time will tell which , if either, is the nominee.


AnAmerican

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

26. Where did I say I supported Kucinich,

And where was I dishonest about anything? I said it how it was, and told why I like both candidates, its to bad that you can't accept anything that doesn't turn Dean into some kind of messiah.

I said I was inbetween Kucinich and Dean, I support Dean as much as Kucinich at this stage.

I find it kind of funny that anytime anyone says anything remotely bad about Dean, even when just telling the fact you become offended.

[Egnever]

29. My apologies

Maybe it was the wording or the way it was laid out that lead me to believe you were being dishonest.

You have gone on from there to clarify your position and I apologize for missreading you.

[lkinsale]

30. It's exactly this kind of assumption that other people are dishonest...

when they seem to be trying to make informed decisions and asking honest questions that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

We don't all agree that Dean's the best candidate. Some of us have made other choices, some of us are still thinking. This really doesn't mean we are deliberately after Dean with knives every time we mention our questions or opinions about him. It means we have questions and opinions about him, possibly not just glowing praise.

[Egnever]

34. I wrote an apology to the original poster

However looking back at the post I see that it was his statement on the patriot act that led me to believe it was a dishonest post.

I am all for finding the candidate that fits you best. In fact i encourage it but misrepresenting candidates stances doesnt sit well with me, Especially Deans as he is the most open about his stances of the lot in my opinion.

[lkinsale]

39. Saw your apology after my post, and some thoughts

I just discovered DU a couple days ago, all rosy-cheeked and thrilled to find a forum for all the candidates (cause my favorite doesn't yet have a big net presence). And I've been kinda put off by some of the Dean supporters' quickness to assume that anything non-positive posted about him is an underhanded attack.

I will certainly vote for Dean if he's the nominee, but right now I have some honest and well-considered negative reactions to him. I'd like to talk about that, not in a attacking way, but as honest criticism--what it is I think are his weak points and why I think he's not our best choice. But I've been afraid to mention them because what I see is that Dean supporters here (and elsewhere) seem to often get really defensive. (Heh, in a way, this is actually my problem with Dean himself, he doesn't seem to handle criticism well or coolly.)

So, your post hit a nerve. I very much appreciate you revising your response, it gives me more confidence in an open dialogue being possible here.

[Egnever]

44. Welcome to DU

I can certainly understand why you would feel that way.

For my part I will try to explain why i was so quick to jump. There are several posters here on DU that are waging a war of misinformation against Dean. I see it as will you over and over. The forums were wiped recently so there is no real record of it at the moment, but they are there. For an example you can look in the politics section and see nic j's post on Deans stance on medical marijuana. He uses old articles with out of context quotes to try to twist what Dean says into flip floping.

The thing that gets Dean supporters riled up about this kind of stuff is the fact that of all the candidates Dean stands alone as an open book. Check his site at http://www.deanforamerica.com/ Pay special attention to the official blog http://www.blogforamerica.com/

The blog is updated daily with campaign hapenings and even postings from his campaign manager and ocasionally Dean himself. This guy is an open book I have never seen a politition take the strides he has to answer any question thrown his way. So the fact that people try to misrepresent him gets under my and other peoples skin when of all the candidates out there he is the most transparent.

You may or may not agree with what he says and thats certainly your choice. But hes not trying to hide anything. Wich is one of the reasons a lot of us support him so stridently.

Once again welcome to the DU you found it at a very tumultuos time with all of the campaigning going on. I for one will be happy when our candidate is finally decided and we can all be on the same page once again :)

[lkinsale]

47. Transparency

The thing that gets Dean supporters riled up about this kind of stuff is the fact that of all the candidates Dean stands alone as an open book.

No no, Bob Graham is even more of an open book than Dean! He's got hundreds of open notebooks, you know. ;) Maybe thousands.

[dsc]

6. Reply

First a couple of corrections. One he is in favor of the death penalty for only three crimes, the murder of a child, the murder of a police officer, and terrorism. Two, he didn't vote for the PATRIOT Act since he was a Governor at the time and he favors repeal of the Unconstitutional parts.

That said, I support him because he has our best shot of winning. We need a person who can compare his great economic record to Bush's dismal one. Of the 10 candidates (if Clark runs) Dean is one of only two who have governed anything and has both the longest and most recent experience doing it.

I also support him due to his doing the right thing on Civil Unions. The anti-Dean claque will try to tell you stories they like about this. That Civil Unions fell out of the sky and that Dean did nothing. There are lots of words to describe such tales. None are synomous with truth.

I also like the way he is dealing with the media and message. He won't let the Drudges of this world, not to mention the liars of the left, tell stories they like. Lie about Dean and he will set the record straight. Every candidate needs to do this.

There are many other reasons but those are my top ones.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

28. Yeah, I tried to take the "voted" part out

but it was too late. But he isn't for repealing the PATRIOT ACT, and the whole thing needs to be repealed right now.

Either way, he supports the death penalty, and I don't.

Yeah, I like the civil union legislation he passed, and the way he presents himself, but the way he gives out his message makes someone like me extra-skeptical.

[dsc]

33. In the future

If that happens reply to your own post with the corrected info and entitle it correction. I have had to do that several times and it seems to be the most common method and usually works well.

And I do have to ask this. Have you read every single word of the PATRIOT act and do you know if you actually oppose the entire thing? One of the things I really like about Dean is that he is careful to seperate the good from the bad.

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. why is the murderer of a child or a police officer different than

the murderer of a firefighter or even me?

i don't get the distiction.

as to terrorist, if they are a citizen, i disagree with capital punishment.

i don't think the state has the right to kill it's citizens. even if they kill a kid.

[Alex146]

7. I liked Kucinich

but he'll never win, I think Dean has a chance.

Alex

[LSdemocrat]

8. Saw him speak . . . love his style of governing

1. I saw the man speak

2. He governs for the long-term: Listen to his story about when he was governor during the first Bush recession and the request made by the department of corrections for a 14% budget increase. To reduce spending on prisons in the future, he started investing in programs to help young children, which now have cut child abuse in Vermont in half!

[JohnKleeb]

22. is that bobby or jack kennedy on your avatar

?

[LSdemocrat]

46. it's bobby

.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Dean was not in Congress, so he couldn't vote for PATRIOT

Back to your question, you should support whichever candidate best represents your views.

If that candidate happens to be Kucinich, Mosley-Braun, Sharpton, Dean, or even Graham, that is perfectly fine!

Now, if that candidate happens to be one that voted for the war in Iraq, or for PATRIOT Act, and remains unrepentant, then please let us know so that we can point out the folly of voting for a Bush-Lite.

[LoZoccolo]

12. Dean support

- unashamedly anti-Iraq war
- strong confident message
- could attract swing voters
- his campaign seems to really have it together, especially with innovation such as the blog, meetups, and internet donations
- responsive to those things that happen during campaigns like attacks

[izzie]

13. Not as middle of the road as some of the others.

n/t

[Eloriel]

38. Nope. DOES attract swing voters plus NEW voters

The comments of his Official Blog are FILLED with people who are Independents, Republicans, people who have never been involved with politics, and even some who've never voted before.

His MeetUps have people signed up literally all around the world. Foreign nationals can't get involved in his campaign, but we've got Americans all around the world and they're active in supporting Dean too.

What I like about Dean is -- oh, where to start?

* Takes a stand, and is able to articulate a good, pragmatic, reasonable reason for it.

* Unapologetic criticism of Bush

* Strong, innovative, INTERACTIVE campaign -- getting people involved at the grassroots level, and keeping them engaged; first out of the box to criticize the latest stupidity from the Chief Smirkster. They listen. They take advantage of EVERY opportunity presented to them, quickly and aggressively.

* Principled and honest. I NEVER feel like I'm being lied or pandered to or smooth-talked with Washingtonese when I hear him speak. His speech is direct, forceful, clear. He's not afraid to say, "I don't know," or "I'm conflicted on that issue." He's not afraid to change his mind. He's not afraid to stand up for controversial positions -- civil unions -- and make mincemeat of the opposition in the process. (I mean HOW can you argue against "equal rights for all" without sounding like a doofus? -- you can't.)

* A vision for America which IMO is THE PERFECT ANTIDOTE to decades of sick Republican celebration of greed and selfishness (See his Announcement Speech of June 23). I like what one blog poster said: Howard Dean makes me want to be a better American.

* I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK! If I hadn't already been a Dean supporter when I heard him shout that out at the California Convention, he'd have had me right then, with that one remark because I've said that myself so many times, as have all of us. Add that to his message of empowerment -- "YOU have the power to ... " -- and it's a really powerful message.

In fact, Dean is a powerful candidate with a powerful message, and a powerful campaign. NOBODY excites the people like Dean does. Usually, all it takes is hearing just one of his speeches.

I sent his Announcement speech to my apolitical, Bush-hating, non-liberal brother, and he told me that just reading it brought tears to his eyes.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RapidCreek]

15. Dean is a governor

As such he couldn't have voted for or against the Patriot Act. Where did you get your information?

RC

[Cointelpro_Papers]

31. I know, thanks

I wrote the post fast, and when I came back later it was too late to change it. Sorry.

[poskonig]

16. I like Dean because he is intelligent, tough, and centrist.

In other words, he can win.

[MercutioATC]

19. Dean for the following reasons:

I like his pragmatism. His stance on healthcare is a great example. Instead of advocating a single-payer system, which would be difficult to get through Congress, he's in favor of expanding Medicare and FEHBP to include all Americans. As he says, his first goal is getting all Americans covered. The battle for a single-payer system can be fought later.

I like his attitude. As he says, you might not always agree with him, but at least you'll always know where he stands.

I like his willingness to modify his position based on new evidence. He has not been in favor of the legal use of marijuana for medical purposes, but he's committed to commissioning a study on the issue and willing to change his position if the evidence warrants. I realize that some see this as waffling, but I'd much rather have a President that's open to looking at opposing views than one that's inflexible. To me, it's NOT a "wishy-washy" thing, it's a willingness to listen, which I feel is a great quality.

I like his positions on most of the issues. I agree with his gun stance, his healthcare stance, his balanced budget stance, and most of the others. I DO take slight issue with civil unions being a state issue. Civil rights should be a federal issue in my opinion. He is, however, the only candidate who has been VERY vocal about the necessity for equal rights for EVERY American.

I had never campaigned for a candidate or donated money to a campaign before Dean. I'm as guilty as any of his supporters for liking his charisma and the WAY he says things, but the deciding factor for me was WHAT he says.

[northernsoul]

20. Dean has a SPINE

Dean doesn't fold like a cheap suit when it's time to stand up to B*sh. He seems to actually understand the nature of what we're up against and he's prepared for the battle to come. I'm trying to restrain myself from taking shots at other Dem candidates, but I feel like they have no clue that we have to act as an opposition party now.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

32. True Dean has been outspoken in his criticism..

but to ignore Kucinich's vocal disapproval of the B* administration is disingenuous.

Kucinich has been a vocal opponent of the admin for a long time.
Well before he announced he was running.

You said:"but I feel like they have no clue that we have to act as an opposition party now."

You

This is from a speech he gave in Feb. 2002( yes that is 2002)

http://www.kucinich.us/speeches/speech1.htm



snip>
"....
Because we did not authorize the invasion of Iraq.
We did not authorize the invasion of Iran.
We did not authorize the invasion of North Korea.
We did not authorize the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan.
We did not authorize permanent detainees in Guantanamo Bay.
We did not authorize the withdrawal from the Geneva Convention.
We did not authorize military tribunals suspending due process and habeas corpus.
We did not authorize assassination squads.
We did not authorize the resurrection of COINTELPRO.
We did not authorize the repeal of the Bill of Rights.
We did not authorize the revocation of the Constitution.
We did not authorize national identity cards.
We did not authorize the eye of Big Brother to peer from cameras throughout our cities.
We did not authorize an eye for an eye.
Nor did we ask that the blood of innocent people, who perished on September 11, be avenged with the blood of innocent villagers in Afghanistan.
We did not authorize the administration to wage war anytime, anywhere, anyhow it pleases.
We did not authorize war without end.
We did not authorize a permanent war economy.

Yet we are upon the threshold of a permanent war economy. The President has requested a $45.6 billion increase in military spending. All defense-related programs will cost close to $400 billion. Consider that the Department of
Defense has never passed an independent audit. Consider that the Inspector General has notified Congress that the Pentagon cannot properly account for $1.2 trillion in transactions. Consider that in recent years the Dept. of
Defense could not match $22 billion worth of expenditures to the items it purchased, wrote off, as lost, billions of dollars worth of in-transit inventory and stored nearly $30 billion worth of spare parts it did not need.

Yet the defense budget grows with more money for weapons systems to fight a cold war which ended, weapon systems in search of new enemies to create new wars. This has nothing to do with fighting terror. This has everything to do with fueling a military industrial machine with the treasure of our nation, risking the future of our nation, risking democracy itself with the militarization of thought which follows the militarization of the budget......"
snip>


He also has led the effort in getting a resolution of Inquiry thru the House of Reps demanding the administration release it's intelligence concerning the WMDs.

He voted NO against the patriot act...

The media is doing its job apparently because you fail to mention him...

TWL

[northernsoul]

40. you are correct

I like DK, but I just don't think he's going to seal the deal for us in a presidential race (I do think he should run for OH Senate a la Wellstone though). I think Dean and Kucinich supporters are going to have to agree to disagree for a little while as things get sorted out.

And deinitely, I'm going to support whoever can beat B*sh in '04.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Hello I am a Kucinich supporter but a former Dean supporter

Do you wanna choose who represents your heart or your brain?
Are you socially liberal? economically liberal? or both then if you are both Kucinich is the one. No offense to the Dean people but Dennis is obviously more economically liberal. If you wanna a guy who opposed the war both of these guys did. If you're against the death penalty Kucinich is better. Tell me your heroes then maybe I might be able to help you out. I prefer Kucinich to Dean for a lot of reasons some may be absurd (I just wouldnt mind having a Catholic president again and Dennis's ancestors are from a country near one of mine. These arent real reasons but kind of but my real reasons are hes a all around liberal. but many in my opinion like the Canadian style health care, repeal of patriot act, and the department of peace are legit.

[TLM]

37. See the problem is this.... you are right Kucinich is to the left of Dean

Dean is a little tot he right of Kucinich on issues like the Death penalty and guns and pentagon cuts... which is why I think Dean can win and Kucinich can not.

Kucinich is too far left for a lot of the moderates and middle of the roaders. He will lose those people, and I think Dean would not. I think Dean will win the support of enough independents and moderates in the red states to win some of those red states back to blue.

[mdmc]

24. I support Dean because he opposed the war.

I'm willing to give him a "progressive pass" on all the other issues that I believe in. I like to say, "First we take the fight to Bush. Then we take the fight to Dean." If in 2004, Dean has continued to bust local medical pot clubs and execute federal prisoners, then we will take the progressive fight to him.

Kucinich, Braun and Sharpton have the best issues. Kerry and Leiberman have the name recognition. Graham and Edwards and Gephardt are not rich Yankees.

I'll get behind the nominee.

[TLM]

35. Well where to begin....

First I will correct you on the claim that Dean voted for the patriot act... you're thinking of Kerry and Lieberman and Gephardt.

Dean did not vote for it and has stated he would repeal the unconstitutional parts of it as well as stopping any attempt to suspend the sunset provisions on the rest of the act.

On the death penalty, Dean supports it only when guilt is proven and the crime is something really awful like murdering a child, or acts of terrorism, etc.


Why I support Dean... there are many reasons.

First and foremost I think he has the best chance of beating Bush because he appeals to such a wide scope of people from far left greens to moderate republicans. His straight forward message rings true with a lot of Americans and Dean is not a Washington insider. Remember bush had to run as a compassionate conservative to get the votes he got... he had to practically pretend to be a democrat. I think Dean can win states in the south and in the mid-west that none of these other dems can win... mainly because of his gun control position.

Dean knows how to compromise progressively, so that while he may not get everything he wants, he moves in the right direction over all. He's pragmatic, and he gets stuff done.

Also he's not afraid to stand up and call Bush out. None of this wishy washy crap... he flat out says Bush lied, Bush ripped off this nation, and it is time for him to go.

[ADD_Savant]

36. Dean, the grass root movement

Dean speaks for a large group of democratics that are not afraid to express their progressive views. He brings back the pride of being a liberal, or a progressive, and mostly a Democrat in a time when conservatives have turned those labels into something which many democrats appear to be ashamed.

I believe what Deans offers to many of his supporters is a choice of difference. How can we say that the Democratic Party has a different viewpoint or different sets of objective when over three-quarters of sitting Democrats vote for Republican issues? Right or wrong, Howard Dean offers the American people a clear choice unlike any that they have had in sometime.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. I can vote for Dean though he's not the best candidate.

Like you, my support for him is somewhat reluctant at best. He's too "moderate" for my taste, but if he gets the nomination I can vote for him. Kucinich, Sharpton, or Mosely-Braun are my preferred picks, but I doubt they have a real chance.

The four sell-out senators make me see Green.

[mdmc]

42. I love your signature, Bandera

:kick:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Gandhi said it.

Nothing wishy-washy or the much overvalued "moderate" about him.

[TLM]

49. I disagree... Gandhi was quite moderate in many ways.

The very core of being a moderate is being able to see the value in both sides of a given position, and that too was a key part of Gandhi's philosophy.


"Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side. Democracy and violence can ill go together.
In true democracy every man and woman is taught to think for himself or herself. Democracy is not a state in which people act like sheep."



It seems to me that one of the sad truths about the right and the left is that they both share the arrogance of absolutism. That’s why there are so many people in the middle who do not want to call themselves either left or right.

[bobthedrummer]

45. Cointelpro_Papers

I will vote for Howard Dean if he gets the nomination, right now I am doing what I can to secure that for Dennis Kucinich, who comes closest to representing my own independent political views. I will vote for the Democratic presidential candidate regardless of who s/he is. No third party vote in 2004 out of frustration either.

I'm going to digress now, not to disrupt or violate the very simple rules here, certainly not to be divisive or start a flame war.

I have a couple of questions to ask you, because I am blessed/cursed with a selective photographic memory-if something gets my attention I remember who, what, where, when and sometimes much more than that.

I'm 53 years old and shouldn't be here, I have survived {like some other DUer's} COINTELPRO/Operation CHAOS type domestic programs from the late 60's-programs that haven't ended--hence my initial interest at your nickname.

A lot of my friends, {including an 18 year old former bandmate} are dead or lead marginalized lives because of direct or indirect results of these covert domestic operations. Some former friends have become extreme RW themselves.

In the Lounge you stated that you are a 17 year old, which means that you will be able to vote for the first time in 2004. The right to vote is sacred to me, that right has been paid for in blood, sweat and tears in our experiment with democracy.

All of the Dem candidates have made contributions to make this a better society regardless of other factors or our own perceptions of them. I'm being super nice and positive to all of them this one post only, perhaps.

My questions, Cointelpro_Papers are:

how did you support Howard Dean whole heartedly?

what are you doing to support my candidate of choice?

will you vote for the Democratic candidate regardless of who that person is?

what inspired you to adopt your nickname?

don't you think that most people older than your stated age, by virtue of more life experiences and contributions alone, are a valuable resource?

Perhaps you could PM me, if you wish to respond.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

50. Dean went after Bush

This past winter when were forced into a war with Iraq, the mainstream of the party blindly backed Bush's little venture. Dean went after Bush full force!!! That's why the base of the party is attracted to him. He was the first person to effectively go after Bush!!!

By the way, I am still undecided at this moment.