Open Letter to "Safe State" Green Party Voters

[welshTerrier2]

The Green Party should receive our thanks and our appreciation for nominating David Cobb as their presidential candidate. Mr. Cobb has indicated that he understands the critical need to defeat bush in November and therefore will not compete in "battleground states".

In the following article, the author, a resident of California where Kerry maintains a double-digit lead over bush, explains why he is going to vote for the Green candidate ( http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0628-01.htm ) ...

I have great respect for those progressives who value the Green platform. It's unfortunate that the Democratic party doesn't feel it can win with such a progressive platform.

HOWEVER, having said that, I want to see Green voters in "safe states" take their thinking on this year's election one step further.

Casting a "safe vote" for Cobb is fine with me. And the only reason it's fine is because of Mr. Cobb's stated position that he will not compete in battleground states. But this "voting strategy" does not go far enough and it does not fully reflect the understanding of the importance of this election that Mr. Cobb brings to the table.

Greens should vote their conscience in "safe states" but it is still important, critically important, for them to do everything they possibly can to bring about the defeat of bush. Greens need to go further than casting their vote based on a "safe state" / battleground state strategy. All Greens need to work for Kerry and help finance Kerry. This is not to diminish any efforts they are currently making to support David Cobb. bush must be defeated. His defeat is the only path to progress.

So, "safe state" Greens, you have my full support to vote for David Cobb. But please understand that your responsibilities to Cobb's essential message go further than that. It is critical for you to do all you can to help get Kerry elected.

[Tweed]

1. How safe is safe?

I admire the policy certainly and its much better then Nader's, but how safe is safe? If you have 10% of the state of Califronia decide, okay, I can vote Green, then Bush could win the state.

[mstrsplinter326]

2. Here at DU there are thousands of calls every week for Greens to

Do their party for the Democratic Party.

How about a call for the Democratic Party to do their part for the Green Party - That would be a new one.

Sorry if I sound jaded - I am.

[welshTerrier2]

3. coalition building

the theme of my post was not to have Greens "do their part for the Democratic Party" but rather to "fully implement" the essence of Mr. Cobb's own statements about the need to defeat bush.

my plea to Green voters in "safe states" was to do all that they can to bring about bush's defeat ... i commend my Green friends in "safe states" for voting their conscience ...

the point of my post was that this doesn't go far enough to bring about the changes Greens are seeking.

it's not about Greens "helping" Democrats ... it's about Greens helping to rid this country of the evils bush has brought us.

I, for one, would be happy to explore more coalition building, including what Democrats could do to help the Green party ... i've been thinking about specifics in this area that might include Democrats endorsing Green candidates in certain state and local elections, more (but limited) Green access to debates, inviting Greens to address the Democratic Party's platform committee, etc ...

do you have specific suggestions?

[mstrsplinter326]

4. As far as issues go

for specific items I will refer you to the green party plaform, namely the ten keys.

And I agree bush needs to go, but I was just making the point that, while you may wish to bridge the gap and co-opt the issues, the leaders of the Democratic party don't. I would love to sit around a discuss policy matters, and I will, but my point is that the policies we agree on WILL NOT be adopted by the DNC or Kerry, assuming he wins.

[Kanary]

10. When does the "coalition building" start?

I'm sure your intentions are fine. But, I ask you to step into the shoes of some of us who aren't thrilled with Kerry, and look at things from our perspective for one moment.

Starting months and months ago, if *any* of us, whoever we "supported", questioned anything about Kerry, or expressed any doubts about Kerry's positions, we got quite a blasting -- called Bush supporters, closet freepers, just about anything anyone wanted to throw out. There was very little effort at listening and *understanding* our reservations. It would have been relatively easy to actually reach out and openly *discuss* matters. It wouldn't have cost anything for true-blue Kerry supporters to make some effort to understand the views of others. Yet, the name-calling and vilification ruled the day.

Now, we're being told to "do our part". Maybe it would be a good idea to back up a bit, and understand what transpired here, and do a little fence-mending. You might notice, for instance, that a lot of people who used to post quite a bit are no longer even here. Many others post only infrequently. The divisiveness exacted a toll. It would be good to start with acknowledging that, and making some honest effort at repairing damage.

"Coalition" implies a mutuality. It's a two-way street. When one part of the "coalition" has been discounted and dismissed, there ae bad feelings that need to be addressed.

Maybe honestly looking at that, and then understanding what some of us are unenthused about would go a long way towards rebuilding a working relationship that you are asking for.

Kanary

[welshTerrier2]

11. seeing the big picture

rest assured, I have as much disdain as you do for those DU'ers who sought more divisiveness ... in unity there is strength ...

several of the posts from Greens in this thread have raised similar themes to the one you raised ... they've raised a question along the lines of "why should we cooperate after the way we've been treated?"

i hope in reading my base post you will consider doing all you can to defeat bush ... that you have been shown colossal disrespect from far too many DU'ers does not, or at least should not, change that essential reality ...

the fact that you have strong disagreements with Kerry on many critical issues makes your willingness to support his candidacy all the more admirable ... I think this is further demonstrated not just in Mr. Cobb's position on battleground states but in his nomination by Green Party voters as well ...

finally, I would say to you that "doing the right thing" this year should really have nothing to do with how the Democrats have treated both yourself and the Green Party ... while it is more than understandable to feel that you have been "discounted and dismissed", and I for one agree that you have been, the "bad feelings" you alluded to should not be the basis of your political activities. Your judgment should not be clouded by the wrongful conduct of narrowminded Democrats ...

I've tried to lay down what I believe to be the best judgment Greens can exercise ... and that judgment, for "safe state" Greens is to look beyond the noise, look beyond DU foolishness, even look beyond Kerry, and do all they can to get rid of bush ... voting for Kerry in battleground states and Cobb in "safe states" is one such idea ... but supporting Kerry in other ways is still necessary ...

[mstrsplinter326]

12. For the record

I live in Indiana - Maybe the least contested state.

And I am campaigning for and voting for Dave Matthews, as I believe he could really turn this country around. Moreover, I don't believe Nader or Cobb will get anywhere near 5%, and I would like to see a strong Bloomington Indiana showing for Matthews, as it would draw media attention and stick it to the Democrats, without hurting Kerry.

I understand where you are coming from and it is def. an ethical dilemma whose outcome only hurts the common man.

It's good to have civil dialogue about this matter, most get so up in arms they stop reasoning ang start cursing.

[Kanary]

13. Thank you for your reasonableness, and the acknowledgement

That many of us have been treated quite badly here. As I said, many have left, for that reason, and many more, I'm sure, will turn up missing in the next weeks.

That said, I do appreciate your willingness to listen, and had that been the case from the beginning, we wouldn't be in this fractured mess. That's one thing we can't blame on the RW -- we fractured ourselves.

I would suggest to you that when you see someone being trashed for expressing reasonable doubts about Kerry, that you speak up, and also gather a few reasonable DU friends to do likewise. That will help to stop some of the ugliness, and show that the Party can, indeed, welcome all. Just asking us to do more, without that support, is most likely an empty exercise.

I will also say that I'm not a "Green". Just someone who doesn't trust Kerry. There are many of us. In fact, most of the people I know IRL have the same reservations that I have. Just trashing us and wanting us to do more won't affect any change at all -- I know the ones I talk with, and I know that wouldn't have the least bit effect on them.

Now, since you were accepting of what I said to you in my earlier post, I'll go further and explain to you why I don't feel any compunction, at this point, to do *anything* in support of Kerry. First of all, I'm quite poor and living on very little, and have nothing left to "give" monetarily. To this, I've even had a DUer say "Then why do you have a PC?" That should give you a clue of what I feel up against. The DEM party used to be the party of support for poverty issues. Those days are long past, and even to have any concern expressed is unusual. There is even a poster here who follows me from thread to thread if I mention anything about poverty issues, and shows complete disdain. Rarely does anyone contradict this poster. Besides statements and attacks like the above, there is complete disinterest. Someone posts a topic about a poverty issue, and it sinks like a stone. A thread asking for people to email and call theaters in support of a movie they all want to see will get *many* responses, and mobilize action. But, asking people to call and write about yet one more cut to the "safety net" gets........ maybe one or two responses, then disappears.

Most people don't get active in something that doesn't relate to them, especially of they feel no support from those involved........ so, if poverty issues aren't important any longer to the Party, don't expect those in poverty to work for the party. Couple that with almost complete lack of support, and acceptance of disdainful posts, and ......... well, put yourself in my shoes for a minute or two.

Kanary

edited to say: I'm volunteering for a local candidate for US Senate, because I know he's very supportive of poverty issues. If he loses the primary, that's it for me. If he wins the primary, I'll keep supporting his candidacy until Nov. Otherwise, that's the extent of my involvement. I've worked my tail off too many times, just to have my own issues ignored or ridiculed... I finally came to the end of my rope. Now, we'll see whether my words get some understanding, or more derision.

[welshTerrier2]

18. Kerry: a means to an end

I would suggest to you that when you see someone being trashed for expressing reasonable doubts about Kerry, that you speak up, and also gather a few reasonable DU friends to do likewise.

i have been involved in many of the discussions about the Democrat-Green divisions ... please be assured that I have argued frequently and forcefully for Democrats, especially DU'ers, to recognize that we need to "heal the wounds" and that you don't win elections by alienating those who could potentially support your candidate ...

And as to your statement that you are not a Green and that you don't trust Kerry, I want you to know that I wrote many, many anti-Kerry posts after his IWR vote ... but now, I think we must do what we must do ... bush has got to go ... there is no alternative !!

bush is not just bad; he's truly evil ... this election is not about John Kerry ... Kerry is a necessary step on a path to progress and reform ...

some people think "well, I'll hold my nose and vote for Kerry ... but I don't like him at all and I won't fund him or work for him" ... it seems to me this is misguided thinking (assuming you can afford to make contributions) ... I think it's dead wrong, dangerously wrong, to try to match your level of support for Kerry with your level of enthusiasm for him ... think about that statement !!! if you understand that bush has got to go, if you understand that there is no alternative, if you understand the catastrophe he's already brought, and you understand that without having to face the voters again things would get much worse if he had another 4 years, then you must do all you possibly can to get rid of him ...

the argument "i refuse to work for Kerry" does not make any sense at all ... bush has got to go and that's that !!

as to people on DU not respecting the issues you've raised, especially the issue of poverty, what can I say ... it's amazing to me that people who call themselves progressives cannot show genuine human compassion for those who are struggling ... i've seen some very ugly traits demonstrated by far too many on DU ... I'd like to think that as progressives, we are automatically instilled with better values ... sadly, that's often not the case ... our politics may be enlightened by our humanity is often lacking ...

hang in there ... work to defeat bush ... better times are coming, and with them, perhaps a greater sensitivity to the issues you've raised ...

[Kanary]

19. well, you heard and .. didn't hear

Yes, there "are some ugly traits"....... at least you heard what I was saying that I'm ignored, and worse, trashed over issues that affect my very survival. Can you imagine what a HUGE thing that is to experience? I mean, it wouldn't be tolerated here to express anti-gay, or anti-minority sentiments........ yet, it's tolerated with poverty issues.

Yet, you still want me to work for a man, and a party, who will continue to cut, cut, cut until I'm dead of cuts. That doesn't seem to have any affect on your thinking, so I will just let it go at that. I think it illustrates what I'm up against.

When the party once again has some concern for me, let me know.

Kanary

[welshTerrier2]

20. John Kerry on the issue of poverty

perhaps you have heard something from Mr. Kerry that indicated to you that he plans to "cut, cut, cut until you are dead of cuts" ...

i've heard him say that he has a plan that could bring healthcare to many of those who can't afford it ... i've read parts of this plan ... will it work? i'm not sure ... but it sounds like it's worth a try ...

i've heard Kerry say that he will undo bush's tax cut for those making over $200,000 a year ... I would hope, and expect, that he will spend a portion of this revenue on those most in need ...

i've heard Kerry say that he wants to make college available to everyone who's willing to put in a couple of years of national service ... a college degree can go a long way to lifting people out of poverty ...

and yet you seem convinced that the Democratic party does not care about the poor ... as I stated, for me, bush has got to go and there is no alternative ... i mean you no disrespect but I do think that your understanding of the poverty issue as it relates to the Democrats and Kerry is not correct ...

and as I previously said, Kerry is not the solution ... he's a very necessary step, a non-bush step, on the path to progress ... Kerry may not do enough to help the poor to satisfy you ... only time will tell that story ... but let me assure you that bush's solution to eradicating poverty will be to exterminate the poor ... you've heard about the war on poverty? give bush another 4 years and see what happens ...

[Kanary]

21. Sure, health care and education are easy..... middle class issues

"I would
hope, and expect, that he will spend a portion of this revenue on those most in need ..."

And that's just it....... "hope".

NOTHING HAS BEEN EVEN MENTIONED ABOUT POVERTY ISSUES.

NOTHING.

As I said before, I bring it up here, ask help in writing and calling about a specific issue, and everyone is "too busy".

I "hoped and expected" that Clinton would halt the cuts, too, but he succeeded in making *MORE*. THere's no reason to think Kerry is any different, and he sure hasn't said anything to that effect, at all.

" I do think that your
understanding of the poverty issue as it relates to the Democrats and Kerry is not correct ... "
Welll, whooooooooopeeee...... tell ya what..... you step into my shoes for a bit. I told you what I face even here on DU with poverty issues, yet I'm "not correct"???? Thanks for the discount. Try living in my situation, knowing that I'm very likely to die in the not too distant future because of cuts and cuts until there's no way to survive, and try to go from day to day with that hanging over my head..... you try it for a while, and then tell me how it feels to you.

" he's a very necessary step, a non-bush step, on the
path to progress ... Kerry may not do enough to help the poor to satisfy you "

What a ........kind thing to say. You make it sound like I'm not only impatient, but demanding, right? So, I'm supposed to work my butt off to see that Kerry is elected, but then when he lets more cuts happen, and I die, it's OK, because he's going to *eventually* make it better, so I can die and it's OK because you "hope and expect" that others will survive.

Oh yeah, I feel better now.

Yeah, that's me....... impatient and demanding........ DAMN IT ALL TO HELL!!

GET A CLUE!!

Kanary

[welshTerrier2]

24. kanary ...

you see yourself as a victim ... the whole world disrespects you and doesn't give a damn about your suffering or the issues you raise ...

you have a real opportunity to do something for the poor but no one is sensitive enough to your issues ... no one cares about you ... there's no point in making any effort at all ... you're just being screwed, screwed, screwed ...

i'm afraid your bitterness has blinded you ...

you stated:

NOTHING HAS BEEN EVEN MENTIONED ABOUT POVERTY ISSUES.

NOTHING.


how can you not see that providing healthcare to those who can't afford it IS A POVERTY ISSUE !!! again your post completely failed to acknowledge the risk posed by bush ... as I reread your last post, i notice that you didn't even mention his name ...

yeah, I know, why the hell should anyone dare ask you to help defeat bush ... you've earned the right to not participate ...

i can't guarantee you, or anyone, that their voice will be heard and their issues addressed under a Kerry administration ... but I can guarantee you that the poor and many others will suffer far more under another 4 years of bush ...

so you stay home ... we have no right to ask you to stop bush ... we have no right to expect you to see that more than 800 Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis have died needlessly in Iraq ... surely your suffering is greater than that ...

you think i don't respect the issues you've raised? you couldn't be more wrong ... you think I can't hear your suffering? you're wrong again ... you think i don't understand that the wealthiest in this country own and control our government? i do understand ... you think i don't see that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer? i do see that ... you think i'm not familiar with the millions who have lost their jobs under bush ... i am familiar ... you think i don't see school budgets being slashed in schools in the "bad" neighborhoods? i do see ...

in closing, i'll say to you that i wish our discussion had ended on a more positive note and i'm sorry it did not ... you say "Get a clue" ... i say "Good luck to you ... sorry we're not on the same page ..."

[Kanary]

22. sure, health care and educaton are easy.....middle class issues......

"I would
hope, and expect, that he will spend a portion of this revenue on those most in need ..."

And that's just it....... "hope".

NOTHING HAS BEEN EVEN MENTIONED ABOUT POVERTY ISSUES.

NOTHING.

As I said before, I bring it up here, ask help in writing and calling about a specific issue, and everyone is "too busy".

I "hoped and expected" that Clinton would halt the cuts, too, but he succeeded in making *MORE*. THere's no reason to think Kerry is any different, and he sure hasn't said anything to that effect, at all.

" I do think that your
understanding of the poverty issue as it relates to the Democrats and Kerry is not correct ... "
Welll, whooooooooopeeee...... tell ya what..... you step into my shoes for a bit. I told you what I face even here on DU with poverty issues, yet I'm "not correct"???? Thanks for the discount. Try living in my situation, knowing that I'm very likely to die in the not too distant future because of cuts and cuts until there's no way to survive, and try to go from day to day with that hanging over my head..... you try it for a while, and then tell me how it feels to you.

" he's a very necessary step, a non-bush step, on the
path to progress ... Kerry may not do enough to help the poor to satisfy you "

What a ........kind thing to say. You make it sound like I'm not only impatient, but demanding, right? So, I'm supposed to work my butt off to see that Kerry is elected, but then when he lets more cuts happen, and I die, it's OK, because he's going to *eventually* make it better, so I can die and it's OK because you "hope and expect" that others will survive.

Oh yeah, I feel better now.

Yeah, that's me....... impatient and demanding........ DAMN IT ALL TO HELL!!

GET A CLUE!!

Kanary

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Just remember, a lot of us Greens who are voting for Kerry

will be losing our party ballot access completely in certain states because we won't have the % of votes needed to be considered a viable party.

So if that comes to pass, I hope our dem DU friends can help us rebuild our party over the next four years and help us get our ballot status back. :)

[mike_c]

6. this is one of the primary reasons that I'll be voting for Cobb....

Coalition building should happen AFTER the election.

[kiahzero]

25. Don't you need to update your sig, then?

I'm from the anti-war wing of the Democratic Party

[welshTerrier2]

7. works for me !!

again, my focus was really on "safe state" Greens ... those Greens in battleground states who are voting for Kerry have my deepest admiration ...

and I would like to see real discussions about how the parties can work together going forward ... it was not my intent to suggest this should be a "one-way street" with "Greens helping Democrats" ...

[Kanary]

14. That's a good point...... something I hadn't really realized

It's all the more reason to expect some appreciation of the sacrifice involved.

Kanary

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Yeah, a lot of Dems aren't aware of that because

their party is "safe" as far as not disappearing off the radar. So they don't realize how hard it is for a smaller party to keep itself alive.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. The last poll that I saw for my state was a 5% lead for Kerry.

Double post - sorry about that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. The last poll that I saw for my state was a 5% lead for Kerry.

That's when I decided (reluctantly) to switch to Kerry. If the lead should widen, I'll switch back to Green. 5% just seems a bit too slim.

[SheilaT]

15. About a month ago I was sitting next to Joe Trippi

at the Take Back America Conference in DC, and he said that he felt the worst thing that could happen for Kerry would be to go into the election with a double digit lead.

Why?

Because then all the Nader people would figure they could safely vote for Ralph, and all the voters who aren't all that enthusiastic about Kerry could safely stay home. And then Kerry would lose.

But, according to Trippi, if Kerry's lead is quite slim on November 1st, then everyone who wants Bush gone will get out and vote for Kerry.

Just one man's opinion.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. I hate to say it, but I think he has a point.

[wyethwire]

27. It was fear of a Bush win

that prompted all the late-deciding voters to break Gore's way in the weekend before the 2000 election.

[wyethwire]

28. That, and the DUI n/t

[Swamp Rat]

23. Good point

And one of the reasons I say there are NO "safe states."

[wyethwire]

26. matching money

Dems could promise to match Green contributions to Kerry with contributions to Cobb.

Similar to the Nader Trader effort at the end of the 2000 election.

[Suspicious]

29. Because I live in a battleground state,

I am left with no choice but to "hold my nose" and vote for Kerry. I don't discuss my feelings with regard to Kerry or the Democratic leadership, as a whole, in this forum very often, simply because I've seen too many thoughtful posters (with valid points, honest arguments and solid facts) smashed against the rocks by waves of angry partisans for doing so.

This has been a very difficult decision for me, and a bitter pill to swallow. I've always been the type of person to choose principle over pragmatism, and I'm angry as hell that I feel I have no alternative, in the current situation, but to vote against my conscience. I'm not a Green - yet - but their platform is looking better and better to me. The Democratic leadership has done everything it can to distance itself, and the Party, from progressives.

Cobb's statement during his speech after the nomination was spot-on, "(People should not) have to vote against what they hate instead of for what they want." (Not a direct quote, because I can't find a transcript, but close enough.)

Watching the unapologetic capitulation of the Democratic leadership over the last three years has left me cold. If we get through November in one piece, if the world's prayers are answered and Bush is sent packing, it will be the last time I vote against my conscience.

[Kitka]

31. I agree with your sentiment

although my state may end up a "safe" state. I am new to the forum, but even in the 2 days I've been posting I've noticed the anti-3rd party atmosphere here. I align with the Democrats locally because of the heavy conservatism there - I have to try to help move the atmosphere to the center before moving it further left, kwim?

But I sympathize. I did vote my conscience in 2000 because it was safe, and have always been glad I did. I just may do it again in 2004.

[Rosco T.]

30. There is no such thing as a "safe state" in this election..... n/m