My inlaws are in town - father in law and my argument drove hubby

[loathesomeshrub]

and his mother out of the room.
He actually shocked me yesterday. He said he was going to vote for the ugly guy on the independent ticket. I never thought he wouldn't voter for Bush.
Then tonight, he mentioned the effect of a new terrorist attack on the election, that it would benefit Bush. I said yes, unless he would be responsible for it and it was found out. That set him off. "Bush haters will not listen to reason" Then we got into it.
He started on how he regretted that we helped the French in WW2, that we should have let them be German speakers. I said,"Why, because they refused to participate in a war that was wrong? They were right!" Then he said how Kerry had got the purple heart for a scratch. I told him, there he went believing everything those deceivers fed people again. What did it matter what he got the purple heart for? The point is he volunteered to fight in a very dangerous war unlike Bush. Twice. Well then he came back and started talking against the war. I said yeah, because he went and lived it, and saw the hell that it was, and then came back to fight against it. Good for him, and I really admire hime for that. Unlike the people who stayed behind, stayed out of danger and cheerled it! Then he started on the millions of unmarked graves Saddam left. I said fine, no one said Saddam was a good guy, but we had no right to go in there and change a sovereign government. That is up to its people. And on and on.
I am not the most eloquent person in the argument against this guy, but I think I out forward valid points. Not only this but I was totally disgusted when I visited my brothers in Dallas and discovered that they are both Bushies. I tried to change their minds, but the closest I got was one brother telling me that I had made him so disgusted with the whole thing that he wasn't going to vote at all. Suits me.
Not only this but they are all somewhat homophobes, definitely against gay marriage any way and in December I discovered that my 17 year old son is gay. I don't think any of them need to find out about that, although my son wants them to know and I think maybe that might be enough of a shock that it would make them more accepting. They continue to believe that its a lifestyle choice, which is the dumbest thing in the world.
Any advice?

[candy]

1. Nothing you say will change them.

People believe what they believe.

Avoid political discussions when they visit.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. But if you avoid political discussions

with conservatives, you abandon all hope of helping them see the error of their ways. Sometimes it's important to keep the peace, but this year it's so important to get Bush* out that it's difficult to impossible to keep silent.

[candy]

17. I mean avoid political discussions with close family members--

It's just not worth it if it causes trouble.

Just agree to disagree and move on.

[calimary]

2. Whoa! What a story! I wouldn't dare presume to give you advice.

But you did actually score one victory by pursuading one of your brothers not to vote at all. Any vote NOT for bush is a good vote.

God bless your son. He's very lucky that he's in YOUR part of the family. I, too, wonder what the rest of your relatives would do if they found out about him. But I wouldn't know what to tell you to do. I'd just hate to see your son persecuted - and by his OWN FAMILY.

[annagull]

3. About your son wanting to come out

If it is his choice, than he should and you should stand right beside him when he does it, supporting him and (if need be) protecting him from their anger. From your post you seem to be able to hold your own, though! :-). Sounds like you have some bigoted family members, but as it always is with repukes, they never see the other side until it happens to them. Be sure to prepare your son for the possibility that he may not see that part of the family for a while as they either digest it or write him off. Best of luck to you all, hopefully love will conquer all. :hug:

[LoverOfLiberty]

4. The only advice I can give to you

about your son being gay, and this is advice culled from the school of hard knocks:

Don't expect them to change their view about gay people just because they love and respect someone who happens to be gay. Hate and prejudice is a very powerful thing.

- Manny

[Robbien]

5. Sorry about the inlaws. Faux news and Rush should be labeled

as the poison they are. They have so much for which to account. All the propaganda they have fed their listeners is tearing many relationships apart. At least your father-in-law is not voting for Bush.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. Get a new family? :shrug:

I think everybody has this problem with family and/or neighbors, friends. It's difficult to understand why people we know are intelligent are yet taken in by Bush* lies. Some are changing, though, so keep your hopes alive.

[loathesomeshrub]

7. My son is very comfortable with who he is and has not suffered

in any way about this. His friends have been supportive, and though it has been difficult for me, I have too. His dad was the big surprise, took it better than I did, and if they find out, I know my brothers woukd in the end be accepting, the grandparents, both sides may have problems. If they live long enough, they'll probably eventually find out, and if they choose to turn their backs; oh well, we can all live without their bigotry.
Good advice not to have the discussion, but its hard to do. On July the 4th I found out my neighbor across the road hates shrub; I was so excited about that deep in the heart of Texas. I turned her onto DU - I am sure she's been here and registered.

[countmyvote4real]

9. God bless you for sticking it out.

I don’t have much tolerance for willful ignorance. And that sums up every member of my immediate family. My parents only watch Faux. I’m thinking of getting them a DVD copy of “Outfoxed” whenever I can get some steady work. It’s only $10 plus S/H.

http://www.outfoxed.org /

It’s easy for me to say this and hard for me to follow, but keep smiling through your discussions and don’t take things personal. If we can ever get the pod people to think on their own with their Faux brainwashing, we might eventually wake them up.

Anyway, more power to you.

[murielm99]

10. Tell your son to hold off on letting them know that he is gay.

Let him mature in years, and in his lifestyle. Have your immediate family get comfortable with his homosexuality first. Have him ask other gay friends how they have handled coming out to grandparents. Ask other families that you become acquainted with about how they did it.

My parents have turned into fundy wingnuts as they have aged. My dad is worse than my mom. Somehow, they got born again.

Christian forgiveness and acceptance? Forget it!

They are still Democrats. I think that is because my dad is so staunchly union. And they do believe in helping the poor.

Anyway, my daughter is gay. We are not going to tell them at all. She decided not to tell them on her own. They love her and are proud of her, and it would hurt them more than it would hurt her if they found out. It would create divisions in the family that could never be repaired.

They are probably the only people who do not know she is gay!

They are 78 and 75.

Families are complicated. I argue with my parents about abortion and gay rights, and I will continue to express my opinions. I will not hide my politics from them, or anyone. But some things are best left alone.

Another thing -- I have a brother who is a closet case. He will never come out in their lifetimes.

None of this is easy, and maybe all of us are wrong. But remember, it is not up to you, or to me, to out anyone who is gay, even if they are family members.

We do love and respect our parents. We are trying to avoid hurting them. It just is not worth it.

[loathesomeshrub]

11. My dad is dem (in Canada, can't vote) in every way but acceptance

of the gay lifestyle. Both sets are the same age as yours. I don't want to hurt them either, but what happens when your kid and mine have a partner and a relationship they don't want to hide? How do you hide it then?
Edited for sp

[murielm99]

12. My parents know her partner.

She has been with the same woman for several years. My daughter is 24, and her partner is 29.

They think the two of them are just good friends.

If they decide to marry or have a child together, we will just have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

I will follow their lead about whether or not they want to come out to my parents. And I will back them, whatever they decide.

If push comes to shove, my kid comes first.

[comsymp]

23. Absolutely, positively disagree

As you indicted, your daughter made the decision on her own not to tell the family- it's loathesomeshrub's son's -and only his- decision.

You also state that it isn't up to y'all (us) to out someone who's gay- I believe the inverse is true, too. Parents/family don't have to deal with the effects of being closeted and therefore, have no business attempting to attempt to discourage their son/daughter from coming out. Coming out is often a difficult, painful process but there's a reason people do it- even though it might appear much "easier" to stay in.

I would suggest that LS & hubby sit down w/son, discuss the pros and cons. Frankly, hurting Grandpa's pride is small potatoes compared to having her son have to sit quietly and internalize the insults whenever he endures homophobic comments, jokes, etc., being made by unknowing "loved ones." If they choose to see, or react to, him differently, that's their loss, not his.

Sure, some things are best left alone- but some other things, if left alone, can be terminal.

I respect your desire to avoid hurting your parents- just hopefully, not at the cost of hurting your child, no matter how inadverdently.

Best of luck to both of you and your families!


ON EDIT: Just read the last line of your Post 12- looks like you have a firm fix on what should be the bottom line. Congrats on that!

[Zen]

13. Really nice post - you are very good at making your points.

I can only talk about one subject at a time, I won't allow people to change the subject because it is a distraction technique, but you had no choice - very good on your feet there.

The choice about letting the anti-gay contingent in the family know is 100% you sons, though you should explain in no uncertain terms how difficult it could be and that it may be VERY discouraging in the end.

[Spangle]

14. Lots of "depends"

Same situation here. Elderly grandparents. What is the point? For a boy, they generaly will not seriously start pushing the "marriage" thing until the boy is thirty. Until then, they are just teasing, remembering THEIR youth, sex, etc.

For us, it is open. However, our family lives in another state. We just don't bring it up. It would just be gossip. It might be different if we all lived in the area. Where the family would get a CHANCE to see that my child is the same person, no matter the sexual origntation.

Personaly we don't think it matters what sexual orignation a person is. "Coming out" makes a big deal out of it. We plan on handling it when/if it becomes known "Duh! Of COURSE she is GAY. EVERYONE knows."

This way, we can talk about gay issues without them automaticly turning a deaf ear to us. Other wise it would be "defending". This way, its just our opinon. Naturaly we have gay friends. Their lives are intwined with ours. Marriages, children, death. We share their storys because we are invovled friends. For our family, this will slowly point out exactly how NORMAL gay relationships are. And the many way their rights are denied.

We don't make a secret of the fact that there are gays everywhere. And that it's normal. We push that gays are the same as everyone else, just not given then same RIGHTS.

People do figure it out on their own. It's less of a shock that way. And they are more accepting. Those that don't, don't want to SEE. Telling them forces them to see what they don't want to see and accept.

Years ago, people lived in a state of denial and forced people into the closet. People were in denial that so many were gay. And forced social rules that ensured people stayed in the closet. Alot of those rules have changed. Still alot to go. Comeing out doesn't mean wearing it on your forhead. It just means accepting who a person is and not denying it.

[loathesomeshrub]

15. We also live far away - so I guess it shouldn't be too much of an

issue.
Thanks to everyone for the commentary.
I think we argued about several things because he was looking for something that would show that I was wrong, when I'd answer one thing, he'd bring up another, which I'd take down also. Maybe I've planted seeds in his mind.
I wish Bush didn't make me so mad! I can't discuss him, his cabal or the problems he's caused without getting excited. I so miss the Clinton days. The only time I was mad in those days when the pugs tried to continuously stand in his way and hunt him.

[loathesomeshrub]

16. I have to drive them to Dallas to fly out Tuesday. Fortunately this was

a short visit. I always dread the time we spend together. Although I like them they are very blunt, and can say rude things in ways that don't seem so. Thank goodness we live in Tennesse and Texas, not close enough for frequent visits. My parents live in Canada. So things could be more difficult.

[ignatius]

18. Good job!! If you keep convincing Pubs not to vote that is an

awesome thing.

Knowledge is power and being a student of DU enpowers and boldens because YOU have the facts on your side.

As far as the sanctity of marriage, no gays allowed, what about divorce, spouse and children abuse, extra marital affairs..houldn't all those be unconstitutional as well?

No divorce or extra-marital affairs might make the pules shut the hell up.

[findyouranswers]

19. Just support him

and he'll decide when he's ready to tell them. And really, at 17, he may grow to understand he doesn't want them to know.

Sometimes, it is easier to just have "best friends" or "roommates," particularly with the elderly.

However, if he wants to get into it with them, I often find that saying, "I'm gay" stops many arguments.

It's much harder (for some) to insult a group of people if the people are right in front of them.

[noiretextatique]

20. got into a shouting match with a gay freeper

in a gay club yesterday. she kept talking about how bush, inc was defending freedom and that we had even right to "protect" our investments and install governments friendly to our interests. "those people want to kill you and destroy our way of life," blah, blah, blah, etc. i asked her if it bothered her that bushco is using gay people to unify its homophobic base...and she said "some of us ask for it anyway." i left then, so i wouldn't punch out an elder...she mentioned she was 61.

at least he isn't voting for bush....he's a lot more advanced than many.
as to your son, it's really none of his business. but i think it does help people THINK about what they are advocating when it's against someone they know and/or love. i know some of my family members are "against" gay marriage, but i have no doubt that they would support ME if i decided to get married. if they didn't they would lose me, and let's face it, i'm far more interesting than most people they know :D

[kerry-is-my-prez]

21. Keep up the good fight - you're doing better than I am w/my family

They're all rabid repubs and are still voting Bush (my brother saw Fahrenheit 911 also and it didn't dissuade him one bit).

At least your father-in-law is not voting Bush and your brother is not voting. That's some progress.

[UdoKier]

22. Good luck with those freeper relatives!

As for the son, I really have a problem with minor children being labeled "gay" at such an age, even when they do it to themselves.

If one of my sons told me he thought he was gay, I would tell them that the adolescent years should be a time of sexual exploration and self-discovery, and a certain amount of curiosity about the same sex does not make a person gay. I would tell him to be safe, but to try a little of everything and get mack to me when he's 21. 17 is a child. Most of all let him know that no matter what, you love him and support him being who he is.

There's a whole spectrum of bisexuality, but our society basically only lets you be gay or straight, and once you declare yourself "gay", you're pretty much pigeonholed.

I know a lot of people disagree with this thinking and want kids to "come out" in their teens, but I don't think most kids' sexuality is so cut-and dried that they should make an official delcaration at such an age.

I only say so because I fooled around with both sexes in my younger years, but lost interest in same-sex by my early 20s. I am not a Christian or a guilt-ridden "ex-gay". I had a good time, but it turned out not to be my cup-o-tea for a lifetime.

If he is still certain that he is gay in a couple of years, great. I don't know that there is an appropriate time to announce to relatives outside the immediate family that he's gay. It's not like we announce that our straight children are straight!

When and if he decides to marry a man, that's when you'll find out who your real friends are...