what's with the idiots comparing Dean to McGovern?

[ButterflyBlood]

I heard him called "the most left wing candidate to run since McGovern". What the fuck? Mondale, Kennedy, Dukakis? Even Harkin who ran in '92 was way more liberal than him. He's not even the most left wing candidate in the current race.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

1. Because...

...If he's the nominee against the Idiot in Chief, he'll get beat as badly as McGovern did...IMHO.

[Upfront]

5. Union Democrat who

do you think can win? Just wondering.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

7. Kerry/Gephardt

Northeast/Midwest. Experience personafied.

My dream ticket is Gephardt/Anyone but I'm not foolish enough to think Dick can win. Unlike Dean supporters, I'm not willing to lose BIG just to make a point.

As far as "Winning" goes, I'd love to see Kerry/Clark but I don't think that's going to happen.

I chose Kerry because I think he's got the best shot.

Personally, I'd like to see Lieberman on the ticket too (He's by far the best on Defense)...But again, he's hated by too many. (Unfortunately, that obvious hatred of religion by the Leftists is going to cost us no matter who the nominee is).

Dean would get slaughtered!!! Probably come close to losing all 50 states. He'd probably carry Vermont and D.C. I supose.

Edwards just doesn't have "It". He's a lightweight.

Graham is just weird. I don't think he could even carry Florida. (And on a side note: I had eight candidates listed...And for the life of me, I couldn't remember who the 9th was. I had to go to www.DNC.org to find out. The 9th turned-out to be Graham. That tells me a LOT!)

Kucinich is the Gary Bauer of the Left. He would lose all 50 PLUS D.C. and more than likey give the repukes 60 total Senate seats and at least 20 or 30 House seat pick-ups...Probably a lot more.

Sharpton is a clown and an embarrassment.

Mosely Braun is only in the race to pull delegates away from Sharpton. She got HAMMERED in her Senate RE-election. Who REALLY thinks she can win after THAT???

[UrbScotty]

10. I think Dick and Dean can both win.

If Gephardt wins his home state of Missouri, then assuming he takes all of the Gore states, I think he will be the next President.

[dmkinsey]

11. Gephart & Lieberman

I like Gep's attitude toward unions,BUT- he was in of the Huse Dem caucus during the 2002 election and due to the abject failure to produce a single idea with traction I would only vote for him in the general election. As for Lieberman, I think he is far too "right" for most of the Dems I know. I would vote for him in the general,but I'd have to hold my nose.
dmk

[TheUnionDemocrat]

15. I'll vote for ANY Dem in the General.

But if it's Dean, I'll cry while doing so and get ready to live through a lifetime with a HARD conservative Supreme Court (And I DO mean a LIFETIME!! The stakes are THAT high!)

[ButterflyBlood]

13. You think any Democrat can lose Massachussetts and Hawaii?

come on

[TheUnionDemocrat]

16. Mondale and McGovern did.

Come on.

[ButterflyBlood]

40. it's not 1972 or 1988 anymore

states are now pretty solidly partisan. look at two states, MA and RI. Bush lost both by almost 30 points. How the hell will he make that up with the economy in the dumps in two states that frequently elect candidates to the left of Dean?

[U4ikLefty]

51. Yep, we will never succeed if we keep looking in the rear-view mirror.

I'm telling you folks, most people are liberal at heart. They just have been fooled/trained into voting out of fear. What they are CRAVING is a liberal (you heard me!!!) who isn't ashamed of it & has the balls (or ovaries) to speak it proudly!!!

[Old and In the Way]

42. No McGovern won Massachusetts

And while it was 49-1, we, as a nation, lost a lot more than McGovern did. Look who won.

[indigo32]

25. UnionDemocrat

I really wonder WHY you think people are going to be inspired to come out for two boring insider Senators. Really.
In all honesty I really like both Kerry and Gep, and WILL vote for whomever gets the nod...
but they are FAR FAR FAR from inspiring.

As far as Dean goes, I don't know how many times it has to be said. The man is a CENTRIST. Will the media try and paint him liberal, yes, but they'll do that with any of our candidates. What makes you think he'd lose 50 states. I'm lost.

Also where do you come up with the idea that DEAN supporters are willing to lose big to make a point?

[TheUnionDemocrat]

30. He's not a "Centrist".

Only on here and at MoveOn.org is he considered a "Centrist".

Just because he's Pro-NRA (Or so he says), that doesn't bring him far enough to the right.

His support of Gay Marriage (I know, I know...It's "Civil Unions") will sink him ALONE! Throw in his bashing of the war on terrorism and you've got him against the two HUGE Armageddon issues since 9-11...

Defense and Faith.

It's THAT simple.


As for the SLAM DUNKS...

Vermont isn't anything more than a fairly large city. And I haven't even mentioned his PATHETIC performance on Meet The Press. That was fucking EMBARRASSING! He's just NOT ready for Prime Time. Not even CLOSE.

His support is coming from pissed-off Leftists. There aren't too many of those in the Heartland. Or anywere, for that matter. (Why do you think you see so many Greens supporting him? THAT should tell you all you need to know).

[ChrisNYC]

35. When did he bash the war on terrorism?

He bashed an idiotic invasion that America is finally starting to realize was based on lies. And you can say that supporting civil unions will sink him, but I think that's akin to arguing in the 1950's that supporting desegregation would hurt someone in the South. Who gives a (*#3? I mean, right is right, wrong is wrong, and equality before the law means just that.

[indigo32]

36. I think you are incorrect in your assumptions

not all his supporters are pissed of leftists, for one thing. Second I don't live on either coast and guess what, I know a lot of pissed off people. My folks for one thing, and no they aren't heavily leftist.

BTW - Dean has made "Civil Unions", no it's NOT gay marraige, a state right issue just like guns. AND Kerry supports gay rights as well.
Damn are we Democrats or not. Have you READ our platform?

I saw MTP with my dad, whom had never seen him before, now I was actually embarrassed (though I'm still a big supporter, he's done better since) anad MY DAD came away liking him.

Oh and I noticed you didn't respond to my comments about Kerry and Gep

[ButterflyBlood]

41. Kerry also supports civil unions

he even voted against the Defense of Marriage Act. And he won reelection that year no problem. And who besides fundies would refuse to vote for a candidate just because of civil unions? in 1992 the GOP tried gays in the military as a wedge issue, and look how far it got them. Most people don't care too much about gay rights for it affect their voting, and those who do are usually solid partisans on either side.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

44. Gays in the military...

...cost us the House and the Senate in 94. And we STILL haven't gotten them back.

Bash "Fundies" all you want at your (And unfortunately mine as a Democrat) expense, but they're not the only ones against Gay Marriage. Not by a long shot. It's like abortion...No one wants to hear about it...Just do what you have to do and shut the fuck up.

[ButterflyBlood]

48. you think that's the only reason we did?

there were many reasons, but the "Hillarycare" fiasco was #1, and the assault weapons ban #2. According to some polls I saw, around 55% of Americans oppose any sort of ban of gays in the military, 20% support Don't Ask Don't Tell, and 25% want the ban reinstated. And we can already assume the vast majority of that 25% are already totally in the Religious Right's back pocket.

And you mention abortion. That's also another issue that makes the gay issue irrevelant, since most people who would vote against someone based only on gay rights will already vote against someone based only on being pro-choice, and abortion is still the top priority litmus test for most of those. We're not losing any more votes we aren't losing with abortion.

Also as I pointed out in my latest thread, about half the population supports civil unions (NOT gay marriage).

[ChrisNYC]

53. That's all anyone wants

The problem is the government actively preventing people from doing what they need to do.

[w4rma]

58. IMHO, it was NAFTA

Dems felt like they were stabbed in the back after NAFTA. NAFTA totally destroyed the factory economy in my home town. Today, my home town of Martinsville, VA has among the highest unemployment rate in the whole state.

[Orangepeel]

47. Nonsense

1/2 the country supports civil unions. 1/2 the 1/2 that doesn't isn't going to base their vote on it.

[Upfront]

28. Union Democrat I Agree

with some of what you say. Being union my self I think that Gebhart has earned union backing. We are nothing if we are not loyal to our supporters. Gebhart is unlikely to win anything, to much Bush Lite, for to long. Now Kerry is another matter, but he lost me with "Get over it", statement, as that won't happen. He is a good man and a true democrat, but he bores the shit out of me. Clark needs to decide if he is running and if it well be as a democrat. I like Bob Graham because he has had the balls to nail Bush hard. He would make a great VP. Dean is my choice because he to is cutting Bush a new one almost every day, and he is right. I think his speaking out is what has started the ball rolling down hill for the Bush gang. His stance on issues agree with me, gun control, yes, gays, who cares but them and the radical right mfs, but he is right on the issue. Health care, yes, ect, ect. Hear this man speak, he lites it up, nothing boring hear. I think they all fear him, because he can win, and no more sameo, sameo, crap. Did not mean to go on like this, but I am 62 years young and this guy is the first one that I truely believe in. I, of course will back any other canidate who wins.:toast:

[TheUnionDemocrat]

32. Keep the faith...

...you 62 year young DUDE!

Passion builds strength, if nothing else. :)

[mitchtv]

46. I wish I could make up my mind

I don't see Dean as a liberal, but I like him, i feel that I owe him for the civil Unions . I like Dick G too, and Kerry too. I am a proud Union activist(retired) and feel Dick has earned my support, but feel he has proven himself unable to lead. That is why I lean to JK. I will make up my mind later. It depends on who is tougher in dealing with the chimp. wes clark would be ood for VP , and (get your napalm ready) Bill Richardson.:hippie:

[IranianDemocrat]

34. Amen.

Glad to see another moderate on the boards.

[ButterflyBlood]

57. Graham is one of the most popular politicians in Florida history

he's even carried traditional Repuke demographics like orange farmers and Cuban Americans in the past. Why the hell couldn't he win Florida?

[JohnKleeb]

2. dont know butterfly

My guy Kucinich is liberal and I dont care.

[SeattleDem]

3. trying to scare Dems into nominating someone else

IMO. If the paint him as McGovern, maybe the majority of us will vote in the primary for someone they would rather face (who they regard as more "defeatable") in the 2004 election. I think they'd rather face Joe Lieberman, or even Kerry, who they plan to smear in a media campaign.

They are scared of Dean and want to make us question his viability.

[ChrisNYC]

4. Just the way the media has decided to portray him

And it will probably never change, no matter how much of a centrist he proves to be on most issues.

[TheBigGuy]

9. I sure hope this changes, but Im concerned....

I know this is going to be the right wing/GOP mantra on Dean...we've seen this in that article in Parade, and elsewhere.

The thing thats now worrying me was that Washington Post article thats been linked elsewhere at DU (in the context of the DLC). This article is in a mainstream press, and it is making the "McGovern--> Dean" connection, more in terms of their supporters, not so much in policy...to the "message' is getting out there about Dean and his lefty image.

The truth really is is that Dean is really not the left wing, not as left as either McGovern or Mondale. But I think whats going to happen is that the issue will be Deans supporters. Dean himself wont be portrayed as a leftwinger, but it will be 'guilt by association"...he will be associated with his lefty base even if his views are different from that base.

This could be a real debacle if there is not strong counterspin by the Democrats and by Dean. I'm almost thinking Dean needs to execute somebody or needs a "Sister Souljah" moment to distance himself from the left & demonstrate his moderate/mainstream cred.

[vi5]

6. Over the past several months....

I've read posts on here about him being from "the democratic wing of the democratic party" which is a line that was most connected to Paul Wellstone, who was an unabashed liberal and as wonderful a man as he was would probably have had a hard time getting elected president.

I've heard people say how he appeals to the progressive base.
I've heard people call him a "true democrat".
I've heard people discuss how he could attract a sizable chunk of the green/nader vote from 2000.

None of these make him some loonie liberal, but each and every one of these things give the impression to the generally undecided, non-political person of him as being liberal. I really hope now that he's getting painted as a liberal and people are using these words and phrases against him, that people don't act surprised.

Like I said, I don't personally think his body of positions makes him a liberal at all. But if you play to the liberal base, use liberal rhetoric, and if your supporters tow this line on messageboards then the danger is that he is going to risk being portrayed that way.

[Friar]

23. the only reason

being portrayed as a liberal is a risk is because the right wing media has made it so. I think it has been well established that most non-political citizens (the majority, unfortunately) are liberal, or at the very least not neocons. The VRWC have worked for decades to demonize liberalism, the very foundation of our political system.

[Old and In the Way]

43. Absolutely right!

The very best thing for this country would be to have about 16 years of liberal politics.....the majority of Americans would never return to the neo-con ideas we are forced to live with today.

Look what happened with 2 years of full blown neo-conservativism.....if this isn't a recipe for national destruction, I don't know what is. A strong liberal social/economic policy would put people first, wean us off the oil enerrgy dependency, and deal with our heath crisis.

Sadly, until we get talking heads and some serious media support, we won't get the "legitimacy" that is needed to sway the impressionable minds.

Now, if we could get Rush to have an epiphany....

[Friar]

52. I only want Rush to have an epiphany

if it hurts.

btw, We've all heard how Rush went deaf and got an implant for an amazing recovery (I don't want him to go deaf). My brother offered an interesting insight; Vicodan abuse can lead to deafness. Was Rush a closet drug addict? And then he lost all that weight so quickly with a "personal chef"? Hmmm. Just an interesting idea.

[Starpass]

8. Butterfly--think I can reply

Look up front---I'm not anti-Dean. I really am not. I'm just a 58 year old poltical science major a zillion years ago in college who pukes at the facts of the situtuation. I heard on Press and Buchanan (and sadly it's true) that the Congressional Dems are scared shitless of this guy getting the nomination. And they are right. I KNOW--as presented here, often, he really is not some ultra-left wing, commie, etc. Not even close. BUT that is what the Nazi press already is labeling him and will hype him all the way to election 2004--and we cannot do squat fucking shit about it. We really can't. They will set the tone. AND that is exactly why all the fucking media whores are trying to promote Dean---so they can cut off his nuts and feed them to him in public to save their precious piece of human shit, Bush. They can't do this with Kerry, or Edwards, or even Holy Joe. But they want him to be the nominee sooooo bad they are pissing in their pants and it is why he is the only Dem they cover in the news. The Congressional Dems have said ( quote Buchanan and Press) that he would be another McGovern or worse (McGover lost 49 states) and they fear (rightfully, 'cause that's how it works) that a whole shit pile of Dems would go down with him. Thus you would have Bush by the biggest landslide in American history and the Congress just totally, overwhelmingly overtaken by Repukes. I feel shitty about this but they are right-----I like Dean but the media wants him so badly they are orgasming about it. They won't present his "positions"..they will only scream to the public that he is a fucking Commie. Like it or not, that is what we have to deal with. We first have to burn Bush before we can introduce a "decent" people person into the presidency.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

12. But wait???

The MoveOn.org Primary and DU are MAINSTREAM!!! And Dean is HEAD AND SHOULDERS ahead there and here.

Why are you spreading such obvious propaganda???

[vi5]

17. Mainstream?!?!?! You really don't believe that do you?

Moveon is a great organization, make no mistake about that. And DU is an amazing place. But there is absolutely nothing "mainstream" about either one of them.

Any organization with less than a million members would barely constitute .30% of the american public. By what definition is that mainstream?

[TheUnionDemocrat]

19. Sarcasm.

I'm glad you agree with me, but where were you when I was getting called a repuke and a war monger by stating the same things you just said??

[vi5]

21. Wow...usually I'm better at spotting sarcasm...

And if I had been around when you were saying that and getting hammered I would have jumped into the fray. I've also been on the receiving end of those invectives and it is no fun, that is for sure.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

24. Yeah...

I think this place would be better named "LeftistUnderground". But, it's the BEST (By FAR) that we've got. :)

[dmkinsey]

14. If that's the way you think

Then it's obvious that the media will castrate whoever we select and we might as well just surrender now and get ourselves some of those cute flag lapel pins.
dmk

[Friar]

20. they will castrate our candidate

It's what the media does. They are fully and completely in the hands of the VRWC. No matter who runs on the democratic ticket, they can expect this treatment in the hands of the right wing media. This election is going to make Gore's vivisection seem like a cake walk. I'm still waiting for the RNC customized lies to be endlessly debated. I bet I won't have to wait long. They've already started with Dean's "dismal" performance on meet the press. Or should I say, the "reporting" of said mythical dismal performance?

I would prefer Edwards but I'm an ABB Democrat.

[TheBigGuy]

22. Well, then we might as well nominate Sharpton

and be done with it.

If it doesnt matter who the candidate the Dems nominate as they are going down, well, heck.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

26. Sharpton would at least carry D.C...

...due to the Black vote. Better than Kucinich would do. He'd probably hurt the house and senate more though...If that's possible.

[ButterflyBlood]

56. You think blacks would vote for Bush over Kucinich?

If Kucinich can't even get the black vote that means he'll definately lose reelection to his House seat in 2004 if what you say is true. If blacks will solidly vote for Cynthia McKinney who's even more extreme on the war issue than Kucinich, they'll vote for him. Kucinich wouldn't win but he would win DC at least, and possibly more states. No Democrat will ever lose DC unless somehow someone like LaRouche wins the nomination.

[SeattleDem]

18. then why start the name calling now?

if the strategy is to have Bush win in a landslide against Dean, then the corporate media would NOT talk about Dean negatively YET. Rather, they'd discuss how potentially dangerous he is to Bush, hoping to HELP win him the nomination.

they don't really believe he's McGovern. If they did, they'd wait to say it until after the primary.

IMO, all that the comparisons to McGovern do is make "faithful" Dems and moderate Dems vote for someone else in the primary! People leaning towards Dean might get to the voting booth and think "Gee, this guy's message really resonates with me, but if we nominate him, we'll lose 49 states, so I better vote for "

[TheBigGuy]

27. The comparisons to McGovern have to do with his campaign.

The more legit news sources, like the Washington Post, have correctly reported that Dean is running an insurgent campaign that is attracting the left wing of the Democratic Party. They do note his actual performance in government has NOT been that left.

The type of election he is running and the type of supporters he's attracting is what is making him a "McGovernite", not his actual politics.

[ulysses]

29. ?

The type of election he is running and the type of supporters he's attracting is what is making him a "McGovernite"

Does appealing at all to the left open a candidate up to the "McGovernite" slam?

[Friar]

33. appealing to the left

is a curse in itself according to the media. They try to make it seem liberal=leprosy. They won't stop. They won't be fair and we can still win.

[TheBigGuy]

37. Thanks..thats what I meant.

Its realy unfortunate and quite unfair, but after reading that Washington Post story tI suspect thats going to be the soundbite.

[TheBigGuy]

39. Heres the article ...Washington Post.

This is I think a pretty good take on whats happening now w. the Democrats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35640-2003Jul9.html

The "McGovern/Modale" rheotrical connection is here:

But for Democrats who remember the Republican landslides of 1972 and 1984, when liberal Democrats George McGovern and Walter F. Mondale led the party to humiliating defeats, the prominence of the left this year is an omen.

"We can't just talk to the true believers; we can't just stoke their anger at George Bush," said Will Marshall, director of the Progressive Policy Institute, a moderate think tank. "We have to persuade swing voters who right now may not be planning to vote for a Democrat."

[hedda_foil]

54. Will Marshall is no moderate.

The Progressive Policy Institute (DLC think tank) is a neocon operation under his directorship. Their only donor of record is the ultra-far-right Bradley Foundation, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Marshall signed the last two PNAC letters, for God's sake, and is a full-fledged member of the neocon Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. This guy is neither moderate nor centrist. He's a true Republican mole.

[davsand]

50. McGovern ran a very grassroots campaign.

It was before the internet, but it was VERY grassroots. If the internet had been available, I suspect the McGovern campaign would have used it as an organizing tool.

McGovern was defined at the time as the uber-liberal, that is true. However, if you look at the social attitudes that year, I'm not too surprised. His attitudes *were* liberal, but they were viewed to be extremely liberal in the time he was running.

I don't really feel that Dean is an ultra liberal, in fact he's pretty moderate in many aspects (IMO.) Guns, the Death penalty, even the issue of military use are alll positions that he's, actually, pretty moderate or even conservative on.

It is odd, whenever I've seen Dean compared to McGovern up to now, i just saw it a a parallel with McGovern's campaign tactics--nothing more...

Hmmmm. I gotta rethink this in the terms as a media assault!

Laura

[Old and In the Way]

45. Do we really believe this baloney????

Look, we won by 1/2 million votes in 2000. Then, Bush was a relative unknown. Now we know Bush....we know his record, we know his friends, we know his past, we know what's not reported, and we know what's in store for us if he's elected for the 1st time.

Does anyone think 1 Democrat who voted against Bush in 2000, will vote for George in 2004?

Now, what about those that did vote for George? Will he enjoy 100% of the people who voted for him last time? More than a few will vote against him and many others who can't pull the lever for a Democrat, but aren't masochistic enough to endure another 4 years of this administration, simply won't vote at all.

The only thing we need to focus on is making sure that our votes count in 2004......if that happens, I predict whatever Democrat wins the primary and convention nomination will kick this Republican Party in 2004.

[Duder]

31. From a small state and anti-war

Otherwise different person and different era from McGovern.
The looney lefty stuff probably comes from WH intelligence.

[deacon]

38. simplistic attempt at dean from the predictable GOP leadership

hmmmm, we need a name transpostiion for bush.


what should it be?


______ bush


fill in the blank :)

[CMT]

49. Dean can win because he is being proven right on Iraq

even when the evidence was being presented by this administration he was skeptical of it--which says more for his sence than that of the pro-war democrats in the race.

[Redleg]

55. That's Karl Rove again.

Sorry piece of puke. Someone should take him out back and beat the crap out of him.

[carpetbagger]

59. Dean's trying to create a McGovern image.

"I'm a democrat from the democratic wing of the Democratic Party".

That's the image he's created for himself. That's why he's got the buzz of the party activists.

Image is incredibly important. Bush ran as a "compassionate conservative", and the facts of his actual views and record in Texas couldn't dilute that. In the current environment of dumbed-down politics, Dean's able to do that, too. Sure, his record might have been centrist, but Dean For President is a solidly liberal image.

The shame of it is that he's burning his bridges. "Democratic wing" arguments don't exactly make a candidate attractive to the large block of voters who do not cling to one pole or the other. I see stuff like that all the time here in Texas. "I'm the real conservative candidate", "I carry the torch of Reagan", "I'll bring Christian values to Austin/Washington". Nationally, that's a prescription for GOP disaster, although it sure makes their party's activists feel good.

What's with the idiots comparing Dean to McGovern? Ask Dean. He's the one who's encouraging it.