"Fixing the Fundies" -- Helpful Suggestions Only.

[IdaBriggs]

This thread has some rules:

1) Assume they are not evil, controlling, rotten, etc. but genuinely decent human beings who are doing the best they can within the limits of their own experiences.

2) Assume they care about other people as well as themselves, even if it doesn't LOOK that way sometimes. Remember historically we burned people at stakes to save their eternal souls, so don't use logic about 'taking care of children' or 'feeding the homeless' or anything else 'sensible' because it doesn't really apply.

3) Take the greed out of the equation. 40+% of the population is supporting Bush, and only 1-2% of the population benefit by his financial ineptitude. He is appealing to them by reminding them they are good people, and we need to remember that, too. Go to www.msn.slate.com and read the article about "The Right Reverend Bush" if you don't believe me.

This thread is being spun off the "Saving Us From Hell (Understanding Abortion and Gay Sex)" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2202314&mesg_id=2202314 discussion because I really believe we can find a way to get through to them if we appeal to their own self-interests in a way that lets them "save face" with their understanding of God's law. And frankly, I'd like to finish this fight once and for all instead of growing more heads on this hydra every time I turn around. Hercules used fire; what do we need?

So, let me start the discussion with these questions:

Is anyone who tries to impose his religious beliefs on others through legislation acting in an illegal or UN-AMERICAN way? In other words, are they NOT rendering unto Caesar appropriately by putting religious beliefs regarding homosexuality and abortion into law?

And also, how did the civil rights people work to get inter-racial marriages become culturally acceptable in areas where it was illegal? Can we use their work as an example?

[trotsky]

1. Sorry.

I don't see how anyone could be a "genuinely decent human being" and still want women, atheists, gays, and other races to be 2nd class citizens at best, some of them executed at worst.

[Bronco69]

2. Sorry, you lost me at No.1.

"1) Assume they are not evil, controlling, rotten, etc. but genuinely decent human beings who are doing the best they can within the limits of their own experiences."

[Neshanic]

3. There is no way to them, believe as them or go to Hell.

There is no grey area with Born-again fundamentalists. They ask if you believe that Jesus Christ is your saviour, and then it's to the Bible for your guide for everything. Non-believers and any deviation from using the Bible as a weapon denotes a one way to Hell.

[Rainbowreflect]

4. I agree with your subject line.

I think all fundies should be fixed.
Stupid people should not breed.

[Joanne98]

5. I wish the fundies were reachable but they won't quit thinking about sex

We'd have to give up the choice issue. They're also denying WHITE women their birth control perscriptions in some places. Even if they came around right now they've did so much damage I can't forgive. They vote to starve the poor, kill the sick, drop bombs on people and give blacks the death penalty. It's APPALLING!!!! So I guess I'll stay off this thread because quite frankly, at this point I hate their guts. Good luck

[noonwitch]

6. Many are good people who are sometimes misled

It is important to understand what they believe and why they believe it.
The good ones believe that homosexuality and abortion are sins that will end with the participants suffering in hell for eternity. They don't want people to meet that fate. The bad ones look forward to seeing their enemies suffer.

Good fundies have done great deeds at times. A good example is the ten Boom family in WWII Holland. They took Jews into their homes and hid them from the Nazis, because they believed that was what God expected of them. Many of the family died or was incarcerated in concentration camps themselves for their actions, but they saved numerous people from a similar fate. There is an excellent book written by Corrie ten Boom called "The Hiding Place". After the war, she worked to try to help former Nazi collaborators and Nazis and their victims heal from the suffering, and move on with their lives and in rebuilding Europe. She also helped the developmentally disabled before and after the war.

When Corrie, her sister and their father were arrested by the Nazis for their involvement with the underground, the Nazis were willing to send the very old father home if he promised not to hide any more Jews. He told them he would never turn anyone away from his door that needed help, and died a few days later in prison. Corrie and her sister were sent to the camps, and her sister died in Ravensbruck.

Corrie always made it clear that it was her family's faith in God and the Holy Spirit that led them in their actions. She lived a long and busy life, serving God and mankind. People like her should always be honored for their beliefs and actions. If you talk to funders about their faith, most know the story of this family and have read Corrie's book, or have seen the movie based on it (It starred Eileen Heckert and Julie Harris). It gives you a topic to discuss with them that increases understanding, rather than one that emphasizes differences. Remind them that the Nazis also killed gays for being gay and ask in they think the ten Booms would also have helped gay people who requested their assistance.

If there was some type of situation in which our country was invaded and occupied by bastards like the Nazis, a good number of fundamentalists would behave like this family did. Just like many of us would, too.

If we don't try to reach an understanding with fundamentalist Christians, we are never going to get anywhere as a society. If we want them to treat us with respect, we need to give it to them, also, even if we disagree with them about religion and politics. Of course, we let them know we disagree about abortion, feminism and gay rights, but anger and hatred has never solved anything in the long run.

[IdaBriggs]

14. Is it wrong to say...

..."I love you?" :) What an excellent way to reach out to them! I just hope things don't have to get worse before they get better.

[greekspeak]

23. They do not understand love.

Their God is a hateful God that only likes them. They love only people like them. They say, "love the sinner, hate the sin." When that "sin" is a core part of who someone is, how can you hate the sin, but love the sinner? Love for fundivangelicals is very conditional, it is a jealous love, a love tempered with hate for varience from "God's Word." "I love you" means something else to these people.

[shimmergal]

20. It is basic Christian doctrine that no one is beyond salvation, no matter.

what they've done.

Don't know how easy it'd be to get through on this to people who're thinking in about hell as your first paragraph describes, but it might give the good ones food for thought.

The other nugget they need to consider is Jesus's saying about "Judge not, lest you be judged."

[iconoclastic cat]

7. Those are 3 completely subjective and fallacious assumptions.

I have an absolute belief the militant Christians are fascists who crave dominion through genocide. They can bite my ass.


On edit: I'm not flaming you; I'm flaming militant Christians.

On edit #2: Sorry, again, but I forgot my helpful suggestion: Expose them for the bigots and fascists that they are and shame them back into the shadows.

[IdaBriggs]

17. Yes, they are. :)

Ain't it great? :) Now, let me pose the question back at you -- would making you feel like a bigot or a fascist help you to change your mind about a belief? In other words, do you really believe that making someone feel stupid and selfish (instead of caring and concerned) is going to help them become a more tolerant person? Be honest, please.

[iconoclastic cat]

21. Ida, why on Earth would you want to pet someone who has declared war

on you and everything you believe? This is exactly why the fascists are now running the show: liberals believed that they the militant Christians could be placated and appeased--this was suicidal, as history has shown. You cannot use kindness to un-condition and un-brainwash a radical who is determined to destroy you.

[olddem43]

8. I agree, many are simply misguided people who

only get information from like-minded sources. I have friends (not many) who vote Repug because they and their families have always done so and they are preconditioned to believe Repug propaganda. We do need to quit preaching to the choir and try to change some minds. Successes are hard to come by but worth it. One suggestion (not original by any means) is to hit the environmental issues with Repug hunters and fishermen. Without environmental protection, there eventually won't be any more places left to practice their avocation.

[PATRICK]

12. Then the generational GOP

since you can't necessarily pass on a psychological type or mindset. In fact the GOP is losing their female progeny and youth, in more permanent ways than the Democrats are losing workers and Reagan money gamers to the "stupid white men" brand of libertarianism. In fact to keep their emotion and money blinded insecure males, they must keep on alienating women and the young.

[EST]

9. I think you are right, but

one must keep in mind that Hitler was a human being who felt he was doing God's will, and looked on his success as having God's blessing of his tactics.
Doing away with queers, Jews, atheists, and anyone he considered weak or in opposition to his policies was a good thing. When he was coming to power, his policies reduced street crime, raised the standard of living and gave the German people a sense of well being and national pride which was very seductive. Those folks were not bad people and they did not recognize the fundamental evil that motivated his regime. Had he succeeded in his plans for the world, we would all be following his example, except, perhaps, for a few dissenters who had learned protective coloration. We need to remember that history is written by the winners. It is only now, in our LIBERAL democracy, that we can look back on our own history and notice that our forebears were guilty of extreme genocide, and all the other horrible violations of human decency, with some sense of shame. Not everyone sees it that way.

[IdaBriggs]

15. If we use Hitler as an example...

...what would have stopped him in the beginning when it looked like he was for "good" things? Before he began making "bad people" (note sarcasm) disappear? Before people were afraid to speak up?

[EST]

18. Maybe what we are doing right now.

See 'vet wife' thread. We have to make more noise, not just cheer when someone else does. Smack the media, starting with CNN. Insist (en masse) on a real fair and balanced media. Write to every sponsor on FOX and tell them we ain't gonna buy their stuff, then DON'T! Starve first. Cut your driving by 50%. Call your cable/satellite provider and tell 'em you are going to cut em off if they don't provide what you want. Contact your senator and representative and tell them what I do-- I know I can influence 50 other voters not to vote for them if they don't take a real gutsy stand for integrity and real values, not this group think and evangelical hard right crap they are allowing to slide by right now. There is much, much more, but this is a start! You'll notice that even the moron is moving more toward us now that someone is pointing out how we (the real moral majority/conservative) are really pissed!

[PATRICK]

10. Worse than converting David Brooks

who apparently can't get the message from his own books on the Right Wing. The problem is that it likely is a psychological type, fixed since high school or college when inflexible people set their brains in their final plaster cast.

You can only appeal to those values as they come up and sigh when they bounce right back to another conservative cause or champion- unless they have been traumatized financially and personally.

But yes, take Mammon out of the equation, the monster in the closet the simple pretend they don't follow. Take the campaign finances and the Congressional pork out. Then get a truce to get the government out of the personal morality bait and switch sham.

Better informing of the masses in general. Get more just balance for social morality as opposed to anecdotal distractions, celebrity worship, cult of the individual, and portrayal of diversity. Almost everyone in America has an almost comically skewed point of view however, nor is the rest of the world substantially different- only by degree.

When the Amish can fall to the "pleasing doctrine" in a way they cannot understand, simply because their values and their alienation from information sources(as bad as they currently are anyway) make them ripe, it is not a sign of their having gone over heart and soul to the dark side. Any religious group should be made wary of making any changes on principles to take political sides as a voting bloc. It can be demonstrated that the more members know about what is going on overall the less they will adopt a nice sounding crusade based on select issues and (for God's sake!) campaign promises.

You can point out how they are being used and abused, at least the ministers. But good luck. Holy cognitive dissonance, Faithman.

[lil-petunia]

11. seriously?

massive doses of psychotropic drugs, serious couch therapy, a force diet of education and reading, and using some professional deprogrammers to wake up the real person inside.

If it wasn't too late, that is.

[yardwork]

13. I know some fundamentalists who appear to be kind people

They sincerely believe that God is punishing the United States for its sinful ways and that W is an agent of God who will turn the country in the right direction.

It is very, very difficult to reach these people through rational arguments. They are offended and hurt by criticisms of W, which they take as personal affronts.

I don't have any answers. I do know that the only way to reach them would be to find some common ground, and convince them as individuals that we are equally spiritual. The whole thing becomes a bore to me after a while. It's like arguing to somebody in a language they don't know. All they hear are noises.

I'd rather spend my time motivating people who have never voted to get registered and vote for Kerry.

[knitter4democracy]

16. As a former evangelical, it is possible

I think the best thing is to get to the college-aged kids. My hubby and I went to a Nazarene college, and toward the end, it was all we could do not to explode. You can talk with them, though, and you can even change some minds if you're patient and you know the lingo. I like the Corrie ten Boom idea, as it's something many have read. Another way is just to keep asking, "What would Jesus do?" It's how I got a mad pro-lifer to stop yelling at me. I just kept asking, "Would Jesus really picket abortion clinics, screaming at those vulnerable women that they're going to burn in hell, or is that something the Pharisees would have done? Would Jesus really condemn someone to her face for a personal decision?" Things like that actually can work.

You're right: these are people who really think they are doing the right thing and are constantly getting reinforced (if you went to a church service 3+ times a week, you'd start wondering about being a liberal too). They get other things from church (like acceptance, rules for living, a structured peer group, emotional highs, free counseling, stuff like that), so they also swallow the political stuff too. I don't think it's so much their fault as it is more their leaders' fault. A lot of those pastors know exactly what they're doing, but the people really think it's all God-led.

Keep talking with them. Keep bringing up the Gospels. Keep bringing up history. They will eventually listen.

[Hamlette]

19. by definition, fundamentalists believe they are under attack

by society/the majority/some other group/tribe.

You have to find a way to convince them we are not trying to stamp them out, only trying to find a way to coexist.

Good luck. If you truly believe, as they do, that there is some force out there which is trying to destroy everything you believe in, you fight back with more vigor. Everything is based on emotion rather than facts or rational thinking. Sort of like conservatives who rallied the masses through emotion to believe the American way of life would be destroyed by liberals.

[iconoclastic cat]

22. "Some force out there"?

Uh, how about this quote: "We are in a culture war."

They do not want non-fundies to exist next to them. They do not want non-fundies to exist at all. They want non-fundies wiped out. They are fascists.

[yellowcanine]

24. Make them repeat Kindergarten? So they can learn to play nicely with

others, hold hands and stay together when they go out, take a nap when they are tired, and have cookies and milk when they are grumpy.