Am I being awful?

[salinen]

I live in California. Many Californians work in the defense industry. When I meet someone who works in the defense industry, I think "they build bombs that kill babies" Some work directly on making those bombs. Some work as subcontractors who make the screws for those bombs. They are all the same to me. I have always avoided being hired to design a home (I'm an architect) for these people.

What do you think?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. You're a little too harsh.

We're living in an economy where ideals aren't putting food on the table. Many of these people don't have a choice in where they work.

[kayell]

2. No, you are being reasonable

Why associate with people who are ammoral at best?

[Philostopher]

3. Maybe.

But I turned down a job, after months of unemployment, for a company that did this kind of research. They were going to pay me above market salary, the job was right down my avenue and wasn't too far from home.

I just couldn't bring myself, with Bush* in office, even though it was 'back back office' stuff. I envisioned myself turning on CNN some morning and seeing people being killed with the product this company made, and I apologized and walked out of the interview. I kind of felt bad -- I guess, though, I must not have been the first. They were offering more money than usual for where I live, and they didn't seem too shocked I wasn't interested.

on edit: I did have the luxury of continuing to look, though, and I wouldn't ever let on if someone I knew had the same job. I just couldn't, personally, do it and was able to turn it down.

[Misunderestimator]

4. Speaking as someone who works for a company

that does have some subsidiaries involved in defense contracting, but whose job has nothing to do with that directly, I wouldn't say you are awful, but I would point out that almost ANY job can probably lead to some product or service used in defense either directly or indirectly. You would be excluding a whole lot of people. I've battled with the fact that I work for a company that I don't necessarily respect, but I enjoy the specific work I do, I'm compensated well, and I have the opportunity to infiltrate my liberalism among my colleagues (and that has definitely had some very positive effects).

:shrug: Now would you design a home for ME?

[salinen]

10. Indirectly, and directly

I know that I also support the defense industry. I own a Mazda, built by Ford, and I'm sure Ford has it's fingerprints all over the place.

Some years ago I was asked to design a home for a guy who was a scientist who worked in the defense field designing laser weaponry. I declined. But then I began thinking of the people who serve lunches at the defense plant. Are they just as responsible because they feed them?

Scratching head

[Misunderestimator]

13. And you could take that even farther...

Are farmers who grow wheat that goes into cereal that the people who serve food at the defense plants serve to scientists who design laser weapons also at fault? :shrug:

I think that all Americans are complicit in the defense industry.

[salinen]

18. good point.

[candy]

17. I think you're being silly.

Many businesses are intertwined in something we don't like.

Animal experimentation and cheap overseas labor annoy the hell out me me but it's almost impossible to avoid giving the companies that do it some business.

[PeaceProgProsp]

26. I think we're all responsible, but we have to be strategic.

If you were building the best detonation switches in the world and you refused to sell them to anyone but construction companies, that would make sense.

But if you don't build these houses, it will have almost zero impact on society. By building the houses, you can rechannel some power in ways that can create some direct and positive social changes.

But you really have to steal your nerves and be ready to pass on the ad valorem you charge these people. It's going to be easy to justify holding on to that money once you get it, and then you'll be complicit because you will be part of the whole BAD system. You'd be just like your state and the Republicans who treat weapons manufacturing as pork-barrelling down the road to hell.

[RivetJoint]

28. A laser wepon used to shoot down

theater ballistic missiles (think airborne laser) that COULD save your life...

[hippiegranny]

5. I think

you have the right to choose your clients as you see fit. If you are financially able to do that, more power to you.

[mairceridwen]

6. what about the people that answer the phone?

that is too harsh.

I mean, more power to you in choosing your clients.

But then, what of a defense contractor who supports Kerry.

Would you turn him/her down?

There is also a need for an industry that deals with "defense"

What about people in those industries who feel sincerely that it should be about defense and not offense.

What about the rogue environmentalist/pacifist who eats lunch all alone but keeps working in the industry because he knows how badly they need to be kept in check

[salinen]

19. Yes

It's very complicated.

[skygazer]

7. Tough issue

There are a lot of people who don't have the luxury of taking a job or not taking it on moral principles. Not everything the defense industry manufactures can be characterized as "bombs that kill babies". It's kind of a black and white view of a complex issue and smacks somewhat of a "shoot the messenger" attitude.

[T Wolf]

8. Not awful at all!

This is an individual decision that you are making and action that you are taking. It may or not have any kind of impact on them, but I applaud your thoughts, and actions. You are paying a real cost in denying yourself jobs. If more people took actions like you are doing, maybe things would change for the better.

It is the "ability" of people to disassociate aspects of their life that enable some to do things that might otherwise cause them discomfort. Simply put, bomber pilots do not see the damage they do, therefore it is easier to drop the bomb on people.

Your behavior is exactly the kind of individual action that I wish more people would take. In the best scenario, people know that you are a great architect and realize that they are suffering a consequence of their choosing to be a part of a destructive industry. At the least, I am sure that you sleep better.

Think globally. Act locally.

On edit - Each person makes decisions for themselves, according to what they want to do and what they can do. My vegan/environmentalist daughter has stated that the very best thing that any human can do for the planet is to kill themselves and thus, stop contributing to the destruction of the planet. Fortunately, she has not taken that extreme step. But I see her point of view.
Life is compromise. When you see someone commuting to work on a bike, what do you think? "There goes a wacko-enviromentalist" or "There's someone who is more serious than me about saving the earth."

[salinen]

20. I know many people

who are much more environmentally conscience and socially conscience than myself. They could almost see me as a menace for driving a car, heating my home, eating meat.

[gpandas]

9. YES n/t

[robcon]

11. Your dilemma is understandable, but unresolvable, IMO

Like the old, discredited practice of identifying species as being either positive or negative (from humans' perspective) there is no end to the permutations of whether a company/industry/organization/administration is a positive or negative force in the world. Just do your best, and only worry about the direct effect of your actions, IMO.

[salinen]

21. Thanks. Good idea.

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. These people are simply glorified "workfare" recipients

They go through life pretending that they are performing some kind of meaningful productive work, when in reality the world would be a better place if the government would simply pay them to stay home and out of trouble instead. A life spent in that kind of pursuit is a waste of a life.

[Ravenseye]

14. I'm Reminded of the movie Clerks

Anyone remember the discussion in the movie Clerks about Star Wars and blowing up the Death Star?

It's been awhile but I think the conversation basically had two sides. One of the guys said it was good to blow up the Death Stars, the other said that blowing up the first one was fine because it was filled with stormtroopers, but the second one wasn't completed so a lot of innocent people died. He said they didn't have stormtroopers out there doing welding, and that for a job that large there must have been contractors and sub-contractors. Innocent people just trying to support their families.

Then a guy in the store piped in, saying that he was a contractor. He said that he disagreed, because contractors KNOW who they're working for, and that they can make the decision about whether or not to do what they're doing. Any contractors working on the Death Star knew what they were doing, what they were building, and had made the choice.

What I'm saying is that I agree with that. I don't care if you are actually assembling the bombs or just making a screw for them. The people KNOW what they're doing, and they choose to keep doing their part to make bombs.

Now as for refusing service to these people...I wouldn't say you're being awful. That's your decision. If you don't want to help people that do things that you consider evil, you shouldn't feel bad about it. Refusal of service for any reason is your own perogative. It does sound however like you can AFFORD to make this decision. Many of these people might not like making the screws but the contract might be the only thing keeping their business afloat. It's a complicated world.

[salinen]

22. It's complicated

confusing, and confounding.

[PeaceProgProsp]

15. Design the home. Charge a lot. Take the defense industry $

and donate it to causes and politicians who don't want to give taxpayer money to the masters of war.

[salinen]

23. I'll do that.

[PeaceProgProsp]

24. Money is power, and I can't think of many better ways to

rechannel that power into avenues that could undo the damage those companies are doing.

I think if you could take 10% of all the money those defense industries make and use it to finance campaigns to change people's minds about Republicans, you would be successful.

So get your 10% and promise yourself that it will go to a good cause.

[MUSTANG_2004]

16. Not awful, but

it's poor judgement IMO. However, if you have contempt for the workers, then it's best for both of you that you don't sell your services to them.

You may disagree how weapons are used sometimes (I certainly do), but I think a national defense is a requirement and would never look down on someone who is a part of it.

[Nordic]

25. you're being hypocritical

since if you're an American, you pay taxes to pay for the slaughter currently ongoing in Iraq.

5 babies killed in Fallujah in the last 24 hours that we know of.

Here are photos:

[Zhade]

27. Well, yes, but not intentionally.

I now work for a certain unnamed corporate media baron (hint: most-hated 3-letter "news channel" on tv) after he bought my company.

I go to work feeling like a traitor to my principles, because I make this neoconservative b*sh supporter/funder richer every day. Makes me sick to my stomach. But I can't quit - no other jobs out there.

So yeah, you're aiding and abetting, but I'm assuming it's NOT because you want to, but because at this point you're stuck.

Sucks, huh?

[Kenneth ken]

29. no you're not being awful

you're trying to live your principles as best you can; and from other posts on this thread, you know it is ultimately impossible to be ideologically pure.

Someone mentioned taking the money and donating it to worthy causes, that's an option. It may or may not be a good option for you. Live, learn, grow; if learning and growth lead you to a place where you can accept the idea of building for bomb-makers, then accept that too.

I would point out it is entirely possible that a home you designed for a non-bomb-making person was subsequently sold to a bomb-making person, so in a sense you may have already designed a house for a bomb-maker.


The best you can do is the best you can do, in anything.