If the "Insurgents" run us out of Iraq

[TA]

Israel will be next.

We have given them (Al Qaeda) a huge boost in recruitment, confidence and strength. If they can beat the United States, they can beat anyone. Israel and/or Bush can bomb Iran, Syria or anywhere it won't help it will only increase their numbers. They are not a country that can be destroyed with bombs they are an "anger and hate" that is growing and spreading among all Muslims. We have slapped a hornets nest and the world is going to suffer for it.

Bush and his gang of neocons said to OBL and the terrorists to "Bring It On". Well they are and our soldiers and our treasury are paying the price. Now New Zealand is pulling their troops and the UK is pulling a third of their troops. Soon we will be the coalition of one.

What a fine mess you've gotten us into - Ollie.

[skooooo]

1. well...I think Israeli soldiers would put ours to shame...

Face it, Israel has been a fighting machine since the late 1960s.

[da_chimperor]

2. That and they've got nukes

and I think they'd use them if they felt threatened enough. Nuclear war is never a good thing. There's a quote from Sharon I just read on this subject

"Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches." - Ariel Sharon

[Toots]

9. Don't be to sure the Arabs don't

We know Pakistan has them and it is Islamic and popular opinion there is on Bin Laden's side. There is also a chance that Iran has them but one thing for sure is Iran is best buds with China and China sure as hell has them. If Israel were ever to use a nuke on anyone I do believe it would be their demise. They are a very tiny country. It really would not take that much if a concerted effort were ever to be made.

[da_chimperor]

11. The thing is . . .

if any Arab countries have the capability to produce nuclear weapons, they can't match the Israeli arsenal. Israel has been working on it's program since the 50's, and it's estimated that they have between 200 and 500 warheads. From what I've read they have some of the most advanced warheads in the world; primarily neutron bombs. The real Israeli ace is their nuclear capable cruise missiles, that can be launched from a few of their submarines. I'm no expert, but because of this I think that the Israelis have, for the time being, an insurmountable position as the only real nuclear power in the region.

Another factor to consider is how good the Israeli government is at keeping a secret. Until Mordechai Vanunu got out, it was thought they only had a few dozen nuclear warheads, when it was more like a few hundred. My guess is since then, Israel has improved it's capability, and I'm pretty sure they have an 'oh shit' plan for if they're attacked from every side. They have their own space program after all . . . and that means long range missiles.

I also don't think that the Chinese would step so far as to provide any meaningful nuclear assistance to Iran. They'd get everything they would need from Pakistan and north Korea. I get your point, but I don't think that Israel is in such a weak military position due to it's nuclear capability. The political and diplomatic results of using their weapons though . . . may just make Israeli wish that they hadn't used them after all. Whew! I'm done!

[TA]

14. The question is - where do you drop the nuke.

Nukes and bombs are useless. Al Qaeda is not a place or country it is an army of hate filled terrorists. They are individuals located throughout the world. There is no way to "BOMB" them. This is for the most part a man to man face to face war and it is in their territory.

[da_chimperor]

17. I see where you were going with this

From what I read above, I thought you were going more along the lines of Al Qaeda turning more into of a conventional army of sorts, based in Iraq, so my response was based primarily on Israel dealing with conventional military forces.

Honestly, I think they're doing a pretty good job at stopping Al Qaeda as it is. I haven't heard about any terrorist groups attacking the country with the exception of their home-grown organizations such as IJ, hamas, etc. and Lebanese Hezbollah. They are still a factor, but I haven't heard much from them as well. Evidently they're happy to sit in Lebanon and shoot from across the border. It's true that many of them (maybe all of them) have links to Al Qaeda, but I doubt that there is any serious fundamentalist Islamic terrorist organization in the world without some contact with Al Qaeda. Since Israel has begun it's security barrier, the number of attacks has gone way down from what I've observed. I personally think that the barrier is illegal, but I cannot deny it's apparent effectiveness.

Israel is doing it's best to turn itself into a fortress. They're never be free of terrorism as long as there isn't a mutually agreed Palestinian state. Even if Iraq descends into chaos, I don't think that even an increased number of terrorists in the region would seriously threaten the survival of Israel as a state. You are correct in saying that nukes are not very useful in fighting Al Qaeda, but nukes in being nukes are always a part of the equation, no matter what the situation.

[ROC]

4. June 14, 1775

The date the United States Army became a fighting machine.

[skooooo]

22. lol..yeah with George Washington..

..retreating from the British umpteen times. Hardly a fighting machine, we surprised them. Not that I'm complaining.

[ROC]

28. We won

[skooooo]

29. no kidding??

lol..thanks for the news flash

[ROC]

33. You're welcome.

We re still fighting mchine.

[KG]

3. are you equating the iraqi resistance with al q?

got some proof of that connection?

[TA]

6. No the Iraq insurgents and Al Qaeda are separate groups

But their methods of resistance are the same. Nuclear bombs and massive weapons can't beat a guerrilla war. They have huge numbers of fighters willing to die via suicide or face to face.

It boils down to soldiers or boots on the ground. Israel has the technology but again not the number of troops to match.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. There is nothing more passionate and that drives a man to defend and

kill the enemy, than the destruction of his country, his rights, his economic stability, and seeing first hand his wife and children slaughtered and left in fifty pieces all over his front yard. Not to mention in a tribal society, the bombing to bits of his relatives and their homes.

It is this overwhelming passion to defend that which is his very existence, that is causing the resistance fighters to win.

It is far more motivating than a superbly equipped military who is there fighting for some abstract cause such as our "freedom". Or, for some well connected corporation to establish itself there.

AS someone has said in another thread, we have ten thousand nukes--not one of them were useful in preventing the attack on the WTC.

[Disturbed]

7. 30 thousand nukes...

but never enough money for Health Care, Education, or other Social Programs that help the less than wealthy.

[TA]

8. Well said

No one could defeat us here on our soil. Think of our feeling on 9/11. It would never happen. In Iraq and the Middle East they are fighting for their land and their beliefs.

[sweetheart]

10. I think you presume their intent is aggressive

They are fighting against a criminal invader. If "we/usa" leaves,
then there will be no need to defend further. Their demands to get
the yanks out of their countries is rather clear, and you've expanded
it to suggest that they are like the USA and plan an invasion...
hardly.

The US army is playing empire, and this whole thing is blowback.
Just like the american revolution, they are fighting a guerilla war
against an empire gone evil... and we deserve to lose... and "we"
are. God help the poor boys on the front line... imperialists never
win wars like this... History teaches that imperialsts lose guerilla
actions in other places, as in war, the will to win, is on the side
of those whose home is being attacked.

As you say, the "coalition" partners are withdrawing, as they know
their history better than ignorant repukes... the british
rembember the last time they tried to conquor iraq... and are
looking to get out. Blair has just announced that there is a new
war there... Duuhhh... wow, it takes a ton of bricks to move his
brain cells.... get out now... it is the only solution when criminals
invade another sovereign nation.

Good luck to the insurgents, may you kick the US military's ass,
and prove the generals wrong in their imperial ambitions.

[TA]

12. My point is to compare the Iraq fight against us and Al Qaeda's

fight against "infidels" in the Middle East. Iraq now probably does have some Al Qaeda elements or support in it. There's many reports of foreigners entering Iraq for the war. Al Qaeda is certainly growing because of our attacking Iraq. If we pull out Al Qaeda is not going to go home. They will be energized to continue the fight throughout the Middle East and Israel is a major thorn over there.

[AlCzervik]

13. I'm sure there are some foreign elements in Iraq

and i've heard the WH say that but remember by them claiming it's the foreign fighters causing the trouble than the average American won't realize that there is actually a full scale insurrection going by Iraqi's.

[sweetheart]

24. rebellion not "al queda"

What have you in iraq but the very situation you would have were the
tables reversed. If an occupying army were bombing "insurgents"
in los angeles, new york and washington, would they be american
patriots defending their nation from an invader or canadians
fighting an ideological war? The propaganda line is to call them
al queda as it paints a simple bush-glaze across the whole situation.

Remember putin tried the same tactic with that breslan school attack,
calling it the work of foreigners, when it turned out to be people
from the area where his own military has murdered many times more
innocent civilians.

No imperial power wins against freedom fighting guerillas who
really are fighitng a war of independence, and in the spirit of
the american war of independence, i wish those who fight for their
freedom from evil empires godspeed.

[Zhade]

26. Bold words. I commend your courage.

This is why I never wanted the troops sent - because now I am in the position of having to choose between my love for my fellow citizens and my humanity.

The soldiers are pawns in an illegal war, and it really infuriates me that b*sh has put me in this position. I don't like having to hope the troops DON'T succeed. Not die, just don't succeed.

Damn b*sh to hell for this!

[leesa]

15. No. No. No... I srael is last in line. PNAC declares that Iran, Syria,

SA, Egypt, Jordan have to come first. Actually Egypt is called the prize...presumably for the waterways. We, of course, would smash Israel eventually, but since we're both not done using each other, it's just our little secret for now.

And this is all a funny fantasy since we are being creamed by Afghanistan and Iraq, two countries who don't have a military force at all.

[manic expression]

16. Umm...

since when do RESISTANCE groups invade other countries???? The Iraqis fighting the occupation want their country in their hands, I doubt any of them would do anything to Israel. Al Qaeda and the Palestinian fighters are the ones who care about Israel, not the Iraqi fighters. What connection do you have to give your claim ANY credibility?
(off topic)>>>If Israel does "fall" to Palestinians or whoever you're talking about...I wouldn't be able to find a better example of justice.

[Disturbed]

18. The US will never leave Iraq.

Neither Repubs or Dems will leave. To much is at stake now.

Iraqis will be bombed into oblivion or until the Insurgency is defeated to a point where only a few incidents are occuring. There is no way the US Oligarchy will allow Iraq any freedom. This will be an ongoing war for many years. Most military experts have stated 5 yrs. minimum to subdue Iraq. The 14 Military bases will be there for centuries.

[manic expression]

19. We will never be able to

truly "subdue" Iraq. No matter how long we stay, they will fight us. If we bomb cities into oblivion and commit (more) blatant massacres, we will lose ALL our allies and turn the entire world against us. The NATO countries would cease to support us at all, and countries such as China may cripple us economically or militarily. Terrorism will become commonplace, we will be fought everywhere. If the U.S. tries to cross this Rubicon, it will no doubt drown in its own arrogance and greed.

[TA]

20. Sorry, I haven't been very clear

The point I'm trying to make is because the resistance groups (insurgency)in Iraq are kicking our ass Al Qaeda is going to see we are not so tough and therefore will be energized to team up with the Palestinians and take on Israel.

[manic expression]

21. Ahhh....OK

I misunderstood you...sorry.
It is very true that the success of the Iraqi Resistance could encourage similar struggles to other countries. Israel has made it apparent that it has no problem mowing down harmless crowds, and so I don't think such a bloodthirsty nation such as Israel could be toppled by such a movement easily. This predicament gives rise to "terrorist" bombings of civilian targets because there is virtually no other way to fight such a menace. We (Israel in particular) need to stop oppressing others to stop this violence, as we are the true source of it.

[davhill]

25. Some day

When the United States having squandered it's wealth, exhausted its people, and has ceased to be a world power, some wise leader will find a way to extricate us from the Middle East. It will be like Portugal leaving Angola or Belgum the Congo.

[Zhade]

27. Have a care...I hear what you're saying, but you went too far.

The attacks on Israeli citizens certainly is terrorism. Attacks on the IDF or the illegal armed-and-willing-to-kill squatters in the West Bank (adults there of their own free will, not children!) are legitimate acts of resistance.

Sharon is a murderous war criminal, but please remember that innocent Israelis who don't approve of his actions die in terrorist attacks, too. All innocent life is sacred and worth protecting - on BOTH sides.

[Yupster]

23. Iraq sent troops to fight

in both the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War.

In the Six Day War an Iraqi division was sent to fight in Jordan.

In the Yom Kippur War, two MIG squadrons fought in Syria as well as the Iraqi Army's Third Division.

They performed very poorly. On their first mission over the Golan Heights, four Iraqi MIGs were shot down mistakenly by Syrian SAM missiles.

The Iraqi army met the Israeli army without plans or reconnaisance, and had not even set their radios to the Syrian frequencies. It was badly mauled.

[DrWeird]

30. Oh, horseshit.

1. Al Qaeda has nothing to do with the resistance in Iraq. That's the same kind of bullshit Bush used to justify the invasion.

2, You invalidate your own point by saying an attack on Iran or Syria would help Al Qaeda. If that were true then invading Iraq would have helped Al Qaeda. But for some reason you want us to stay.

3. Israel was around a long time before we ever went into Iraq.

4. We should be run out of Iraq.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Not "if" but "when".

The war is lost. BushCo is in up to their necks and sinking fast. The next step is to try to crush the "insurgents" by brute force, thus increasing the "insurgency" and supplying yet more "insurgents" throughout the ME.

Or, if you smoke the same stuff as Wolfowitz, the Iraqis will joyfully welcome the bombing of their cities and killing of their relatives and happily line up to vote for the puppets as ordered. Then will follow demands from Syria and Iran for "liberation" by our heroic troops.

Anybody feel that draft at the back of your neck?

[Comadreja]

32. Draft and massive incarceration

It's the Likud solution. Only the US will not have to police the iraqis as closely as the Israelis because there are no settlements to protect...just oilfields. I believe that eventually the US will string a massive high-tech fence or wall across the country to separate off the oil fields and terminals from the Iraqi people. Remote surveillance and air patrols would then ease the necessity of troop deployments. Hallibacon will get the fence contract.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

34. My Jewish mother is convinced

Bush's plan is to destroy Israel. I'm not sure where she got this, but she says his religion believes the world can't end until the last Jew is either dead or converted.

Weird stuff, but I'd buy anything. Think about Grampa Prescott and the Nazis!

Destabilizing the hell out of the Mideast is a good way to eventually destroy Israel, and maybe the rest of the world along with it.

And note, the suicide bombings began after Bush trashed the Clinton-era peace process.