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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:11 PM
Original message
Are they really going to reinstate a Draft
I go back and forth on this issue myself, but mostly I want to present an argument I've heard and see if there is a quick answer to it.

"They can't reinstate a draft, not really. Reinstating a draft would take an act of congress; can't be done by executive order. And Congress is likely to remain pretty evenly divided. The political ramifications of signing a bill authorizing a draft would be enormous. Anybody in a contested district, even Republicans, will have a very hard time authorizing a draft because he would then lose his next election. So there won't be a draft."

I'm not convinced of this argument; for one thing, why the hurry to restaff draft boards if there is no possibility of a draft? But I'm curious to know if there is a simple answer to this argument.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. It might take an act of Congress
but it takes the order of a President to do it. And further, the President has to sign it into law, so a draft would need a willing executive branch participant.
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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. If you want to invade Iran and Syria
you need a draft.....
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Kikosexy2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Let's disspell...
the all the myths about the draft. First Dem. Charles Rangel just wants to reform it. Meaning, he wants to do away with any loopholes that exempts anyone from serving. This reform he's pushing for is to make sure ALL eligible young men and women serve in the military should a draft be reinstated. No more just the poor or middle class young ones sent out first--it will be all--rich, poor, college bound, etc. Which means there's no excuse for Jenna and Babs from serving for their country. But if we get 4 more years of the Chimp and the war criminals then get to be shipped out to Iran, N. Korea or Syria.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Bush isn't building 14 permanent military bases in Iraq out of guilt
Edited on Thu Oct-07-04 02:39 PM by rocknation
If he wins, Iraq becomes a base of operations for invading the rest of the Middle East--that will defintely going to require more cannon fodder. And don't fall for that "they're only looking for people with special/critical skills"--unless you consider breathing unassisted a special skill.

:headbang:
rocknation
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PeaceForever Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Exactly right. Right now, we don't have the troops to attack Iran.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bush Inc is salivating over more invasions
and they don't have the numbers now
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I know that they want to have more invasions
That's clear. But can they actually manage it? I mean they also want Abortion completely illegal, and Homosexuality back to being a crime, but they haven't managed that yet. Will this be any different?

Incidently, I don't recommend finding out by giving them another term. They've done more than enough damage to this country within the (few) restrictions they've had.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. well let's see
they are in the White House even though they lost the election; they are in Iraq even though they knew it had no WMD. These bastards can - and will - DO ANYTHING.
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Mistress Quickly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Didn't they pull one of the bills (draft proposal)
Out of committee and vote on it the other day? It died with only a couple of votes for it.

If it were any other Presidency, I would naively think the reason they restaffed the Selective Service boards was because after 9-11, they may have just wanted to be prepared in case something like that happened again.

But since its the bush adminstration...
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm sure they want to, but you're right. The political cost is too steep.
They've done most of what they can to do a non-draft draft, calling up 5000 RRFs and not allowing people to leave since the "war" is still on. But obviously they'll need more troops. One way to get around it is to call up yet more national guard and reserve units, draining the available sources and forcing the states to expand their force sizes without actually initiating a formal conscription.

But on the whole it's still a hot button topic. If they were gonna do a draft, they needed to start it up in October 2001. Too late now.
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Burma Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. No.......But my 68 year old retired Colonel Dad may have to go fight
They will abuse everyone they can unless they're stopped

PS: Freepers, the thing about my Dad, it's a Joke, OK, you guys DO get jokes, don't you? Well, maybe not in Michigan.....
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. Choices are limited
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. The troops have to come from somewhere.
I haven't noticed long lines at the recruiting offices. Right now both Bush and Kerry are trying to get surrogates to jump into the quagmire. A futile quest. Either they're going to have to start hiring mercenaries or start sending out those "Greetings" letters to the cannon fodder.
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IkeWarnedUs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. This was posted on DU a little while ago
I don't remember by who, but it explains our concerns about the draft better than I can (which is why I saved it):

---------------------

BUSH ’04 = DRAFT ’05 SPECIAL ALERT

NOTE:THIS IS NOT THE RANGEL BILL. THIS IS NEW! THIS IS THE BUSH GOP PLAN TO REINSTATE THE COMBAT DRAFT AND START A NEW SKILLS DRAFT. CHARLIE RANGEL HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Please distribute this post and the official SSS draft document, the Feb. 11, 2003 “Issue Paper”, to all college newspaper editors, in LTTEs and mass e-mails.

PRINT THE PDF: http://somnamblst.tripod.com/draftalert.pdf
HANG THIS FLYER EVERYWHERE

This is a SPECIAL MILITARY DRAFT ALERT. In May, the Seattle Post Intelligencer published an article about a document they received through the Freedom of Information Act. It was revealed that the SSS is currently “designing procedures” for the implementation of a “Skills Draft” and had held a top-level meeting on it with Deputy Undersecretaries at the Defense Department. This draft would change the essential mission of the Selective Service and require “virtually every young American”, male and female ages 18-34, to register for the Skills Draft and list all the occupations they are proficient in to fill labor shortages throughout nearly the entire government. If enacted, the Skills Draft proposed in this FOI-recovered document would change America as we know it.

The Pentagon is suffering from immediate labor shortages. Recently, the inactive Ready Reserve had to be called up for the first time since the Gulf War to fill 5,600 job shortages in the Armed Forces. DoD said in the recent IRR callup “20% of the call-ups are truck drivers, 12% are supply specialists who can use a computer to track supplies, 10% are Humvee mechanics, 7% are administrative specialists and 6% are combat engineers” (USA Today, August 8, 2004).

Although Congress would have to approve new legislation to create a Skills Draft or reinstate the combat draft, Family Circle reported in its July 13 issue that Karl Rove has polled GOP members of Congress in September 2002 to see if they would support the President if he requests reinstatement. The Republicans said they would vote for the draft. They would likely support the new legislation needed to create the Skills Draft. While Bush and the Republicans are of course keeping the return of the draft and the new skills draft as quiet as possible, many anti-draft organizations have recently begun warning of a “Coming New Draft”.

The Issue Paper document was revealed through the Freedom of Information Act by Seattle Post Intelligencer reporter Eric Rosenberg, who wrote a partial explanation of it that was printed May 1, 2004.

(http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/171522_draft01.h... )

Rosenberg’s article was edited, however, and some key points about this document were omitted in the published article. What follows is a full explanation of the document and links to the document itself.

The Secret Issue Paper can be viewed at: http://blatanttruth.org/selective_service091304.pdf

This document is real, having been acknowledged by the DoD and the SSS when they said no action is being taken on it at the present time. However, given the current manpower shortages for certain skills and nurses, if Bush gets back in, expect all the options outlined in the Issue Paper to be implemented by the end of December of this year, and at the least a non-combat skills and medical draft to start next year, if not the male combat draft, ages18-25.

Despite Rumsfeld saying the draft is not needed, this is the same neo-con administration that has repeatedly lied to and misled the American people. Draft-age youth and their families are left looking at a “long, hard slog” in Iraq (Rumsfeld secret memo), the neo-con plans to invade still more nations, and then having to take Rumsfeld and Cheney’s word not to worry about the draft, that they “are not considering it at this time.”

Although official word is that this secret list of options is not being implemented—the Issue Paper options have NOT been rejected and the 6-page proposal is rather sitting in the Pentagon, waiting. In addition, the SSS itself has said that it is “designing procedures” (Seattle PI, May 1, 2004) to implement the skills draft, meaning designing the compliance cards and the data fields needed to keep track of “virtually every young American” and their skills. Acting Director of the SSS Brodsky has also said the Skills Draft is the “top priority” of the Selective Service for 2004.

From the FOI document, we now know that on February 11, 2003, Charles Abell, the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, and William Carr, Deputy Undersecretary for Military Personnel Policy, met with Lewis Brodsky, the Acting Director of the Selective Service and some other officials. This is the highest-level meeting you could have about the Selective Service, outside of Rumsfeld and his inner circle. They were there to discuss the urgent “issue paper” now revealed, which starts: “With known shortages of military personnel with certain critical skills, and with the need for the nation to be capable of responding to domestic emergencies as a part of Homeland Security Planning, changes should be made in the Selective Service System’s registration program and primary mission”.

Although it would require changes in current draft law, the far-reaching proposal shows how far the Republicans are going to plan and prepare for a huge expansion of the draft. The Issue Paper options include:

- Change the very mission of the SSS to become a massive conscription service in the War on Terror for the entire government.

- Conscript men and women in a critical skills non-combat draft up to age 34 with no deferments of any kind, except “essential community service” (like the Medical Draft).

- Allow a non-combat draft for shortages in critical skills, without calling a combat draft.

- Fill labor shortages of all kinds throughout not only DoD but the whole government, especially high-paying professionals like computer networking specialist or linguist.

- Create a massive database of “virtually every young American” ages 18 to 34. This database would be used to draft in war and to recruit in peacetime. State and even local governments would be given access to the names for recruitment and help in emergencies.

- Create a single-point, all-inclusive database, in which every young person would be forced to send in a “self-declaration” of all of their critical skills, chosen from a long list of occupations like the Armed Forces Specialty Code. The self-declaration is similar to IRS compliance and the filling out and signing of your tax forms. All young people would be required to keep the government updated if they acquired a new skill. SSS Compliance forms will be available at every Post Office. The usual penalties of imprisonment and/or a $250,000 fine would apply to all non-registrants.

- A draft or recruitment could be for any one of the skills you self-declare on the compliance form, not your current or primary skill. This greatly increases your chance of being drafted if you are 18-34

- Bring the Medical Draft (HCPDS) up to speed and fully test it through readiness exercises.

- Reduce induction time from being able to deliver all inductees in 193 days down to just 90 days for skills inductees.

This secret paper urges the mission be changed “promptly”, meaning they really need it, it would draft for the Pentagon as well as the enormous Homeland Security branches as well as other government agencies, even state and local!

For obvious political reasons, the decision was made by Bush, Cheney and Rove to sit on this 6-page proposal until after the election in November. Yet the SSS was told to go ahead and begin “designing procedures” for the Skills Draft in 2004 and make it their “top priority”. It can be expected that if Bush gets back in, and the DoD and SSS are still asking for the Skills Draft, the “Next Steps” part of the document will be put into action and the most expansive option to change the SSS mission will be rapidly legislated.

In the secret planning meeting document, the next steps strongly recommended by SSS Acting Director Brodsky were:

1. “Promptly” redefine the SSS Mission to draft men and women up to age 34 for skills, and deliver them within 90 days or sooner to the Department of Defense. Program a massive database to be ready to enter millions of names of those registering their critical skills.

2. Expand mission to deliver personnel in skills draft to the Department of Homeland Security and other agencies, including FEMA, NSC, Border Patrol, INS, Customs, Corporation for National Service, Public Health Service and other federal, state and local government agencies.

3. Form interagency task force to provide Administration with recommendation on this skills draft for the entire DHS and the rest of the government.

4. Obtain White House Statement of Administration Policy on the future of the SSS.

5. Be prepared to market the skills draft, raising the non-combat age to 34 and the drafting of women to the Armed Services and Appropriations Committee.

This proposed expansion of the draft, forcing all people under 35 to register with the SSS, man or woman, is primarily proposed, according to the document, because the cost of providing contract professionals, like computer network specialists, would be “prohibitive”. In this way, the proposed Skills Draft would help preserve Bush’s massive tax cuts for the wealthy by lowering the massive budget deficits.

That’s the new Skills Draft and the secret document behind it. But what about the Combat Draft?

Selective Service has been registering young men for over twenty years and at any moment the President can go to Congress and ask them to reauthorize conscription for the male combat draft for ages 18-25. It doesn’t take much to imagine a re-elected Bush going to Congress and saying “We cannot cut and run from Iraq or the War on Terror. I need you to reauthorize conscription.”

And they would not have to pass a whole new draft law to do it. All that is needed is a “trigger resolution”, which could be passed in the dead of night—and bingo! No debate, no regular bill, just a short resolution passed quickly and the draft for men 18 to 25 is back.

That is why the Democratic draft legislation being offered by Rangel and Hollings is totally irrelevant. These are known protest bills and actually propose drafting women for the combat draft, just to make sure they will never see the light of day. Rangel and Hollings offered them to raise the issue and confront Bush. Hollings even said he wouldn’t vote for his own bill!

They are not needed—and the press and the Republicans will bring them up as red herrings to distract everyone from what is really going on: the Republicans, and the SSS are quietly, behind the scenes, oiling up the draft machinery—getting ready to reinstate for the Spring of 2005. Taken singly, each of the clues indicating the return and expansion of the draft might seem insignificant but when you add them all up with what the selective Service is doing to gear up the combat draft, a clear pattern emerges, leading to the inescapable conclusion that a Bush re-election will see not only a Skills Draft, but a return of the Combat Draft as well.

What is the proof? The government’s own document, the SSS Performance Plan for Fiscal Year 2004:

http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

The Selective Service System, or the SSS, has for decades operated at a low level of readiness. Readiness Exercises are conducted on a multi-year cycle but historically these have been little more than getting draft board volunteers together and going over the procedures of what would happen under reinstatement and training new members every summer. And the draft boards themselves have become 80% vacant over the decades.

In the current 5-year cycle of exercises, however, the SSS is clearly ramping up the draft machinery to an unprecedented level.

“Strategic Objective 1.2: Ensure a mobilization infrastructure of 56 State Headquarters,
442 Area Offices and 1,980 Local Boards are operational within 75 days of an authorized
return to conscription.”

Tie that to this objective:

“An annual report providing the results of the implementation of these performance
measures will be submitted by March 31, 2005.”

75 days from March 31, 2005 is about June 15, 2005. According to the 2004 plan, the draft boards will be “operational” then, meaning that they will be set up in 1,980 local offices around the country. If Bush asks for reinstatement on April 1, Congress could pass it that night and the first batch of over one million 20 year-olds would face the national lottery as soon as that date, June 15, 2005.

Here is how the $28 million is being spent according to the official document. Although the Senate rejected the funding request to bump up the SSS budget to $28 million, the SSS says in one paragraph of the Performance Plan that budgets will be “adjusted” to cover the additional cost for 2004:

“Strategic Goal 1: Increase the effectiveness and efficiency of the Manpower
Delivery Systems (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $7,942,000)

Strategic Goal 2: Improve overall Registration Compliance and Service to the Public (Projected allocation FY 2004 – $8,769,000)

Strategic Goal 3: Enhance external and internal customer service
(Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $10,624,000)

Strategic Goal 4: Enhance the system which guarantees that each conscientious objector is properly classified, placed, and monitored. (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $955,000)”

In analyzing each of the 2004 goals in detail it is obvious that there are hidden “activation bombshells” in this so-called “Performance Plan”. Goal number 1 in particular brings the combat induction process up to 95% operational readiness, going so far as to actually hold a mock lottery drawing this year and to issue sample orders to report for the famous medical exam. The document does not reveal the day in 2004 the mock lottery is to be held.
In addition, the Medical Draft, or Health Care Personnel Delivery System (HCPDS in the document), is for the first time brought up to full readiness by next year. This draft would take men and women up to age 44 if they are doctors, nurses or one of 60-some medical specialties. No medical deferments allowed. Previous readiness exercises merely went over what would happen with HCPDS and updated the guide. The 2004 plan actually develops a readiness exercise for the Medical Draft that would be conducted next year. Plus HCPDS must be ready to conscript by June, being part of the system.
Goal number four is particularly ominous.

“Strategic Objective 4.1: Ensure a mobilization infrastructure of 48 Alternative Service Offices and 48 Civilian Review Boards are operational within 96 days after notification of a return to induction.”

“Strategic Objective 4.2: Develop a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for the Alternative Service Employer Network to specifically identify organizations and associations who can, by law, participate in the Alternative Service Program. This network will provide jobs for ASWs at the local level. Prior to activation, SSS will develop a draft MOU for use when obtaining agreements with qualified employers at the local and national level.”

For 31 years, the Conscientious Objector system, called the Alternative Service, has lain dormant. The 2004 plan also calls for this to be brought up to speed and to be ready to decide cases and place COs in the Alternative Service by July 6, 2005 (96 days after March 31, 2005). The SSS is even going so far as to draw up the SOPs, the Standard Operating Procedures which identify local employers eligible to receive cheap AS workers and to also draw up the actual MOU, the Memorandum of Understanding the employer must sign to get their CO workers and allow their mandatory attendance to be monitored. This is the last obstacle to be hurdled before the draft could actually be ready for quick activation under the law.

In sharp contrast to all this preparation for a Spring 2005 draft by Bush, Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry has proposed a military plan that rejects any draft. By adding 20,000 active duty combat soldiers and 20,000 active “reconstruction specialists”. At a Wisconsin high school, Kerry pledged in June, 2004, that the draft would be “absolutely unnecessary”. When asked in April by 130 college editors in a conference call as to whether he would support a draft, John Kerry said unequivocally: “No. No draft” and he has criticized the use of the Guard and Reserve and now the Individual Ready Reserve as a “back-door draft”.

Kerry plans to spend an additional $7 billion to strengthen the Volunteer Army in what is essentially a “No-Draft Plan”. Moreover, Kerry is strongly opposed to the neo-con plan revealed in Wes Clark’s book, in which Clark was told by a senior Pentagon official that invasions of Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Sudan and Somalia were still to come over the next three years.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Take a look at the neocon foreign policy and the missions ..
Edited on Thu Oct-07-04 02:27 PM by gsh999
that the neocons contemplate. Then look at our armed forces manpower situation right now. There will be a draft if Bush is re-elected. Naturally, the neocons are going into passive mode before the election, but you can bet your ass it will be back to aggression and global domination if Bush gets elected.
I speak from a little experience because I was a military planner (among other jobs) in the infantry and also had time as a military recruiter.
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Infomaniac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Logic
I saw Dean on Tim Russert. Russert pressed Dean on the draft issue and Dean said a draft was the logical outcome if events continue as they have been. Recruiting efforts are down across the armed services, the National Guard lags in enrollment and applications are down at the military academies. The armed forces have been talking about lowering standards to bolster recruitment. You have to be either pretty darn stupid, psychotic or both not to get past the current screening process. We are losing forces to career-ending casulties in Iraq and Afghanistan faster than we can replace them. Our military is stretched to the absolute limit. One more event and Bush would have no choice but to call for a draft. What other choice does he have? No other country is going to help us out with troops so long as Bush is president.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Well there is another option, which is scale down the mission
Granted they wouldn't want to do that; they want to wage the war as aggressively as possible.

But if they can't get a bill passed, can they still draft?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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dr.strangelove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. Not a formal draft, but more of the same
Bush will continue to steal reserve forces and activate them for duty. He will use National Guard forces. He will create economic incentives to enlist that will be difficult for poor young men and women to refuse.

I don't see a real draft, just more of the smae draft thats going on today.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. George Bush has three simultaneous wars planned for the next...
...four years:

1) In the Middle East taking on Iran/Jordan and Syria and staged from Iraq using ground troops and air combat

2) In Korea against North Korea using the navy

3) In Central Africa using whatever forces he can put together.

The troop strength in the Middle East would have to be tripled to almost a half a million active troops, North Korea would tie up half the U.S. Pacific fleet and Central Africa will require at least a quarter of a million troops. Bush would also use tactical nuclear weapons. His military goal will be genocide of local hostile populations and relocation and re-population by so-called friendly allies who along with major corporate control over and exploitation of area natural resources. To assemble a trained army to meet these Bush ambitions, the U.S. military command force would have to be quadrupled from present levels within two years. A draft would be the only way to accomplish this.

How does a $1 trillion annual deficit sound each year until 2012? How about 100,000 dead American military troops sacrificed for this cause? The missile defense system that Bush has been building at the cost of a half a trillion dollars during the past 45 months is part of that strategy. Now, all he needs is to build his army of 3.5 million troops. That is George W Bush's secret insane plan for America world domination and war on terror.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. YES !!!


having lived through Vietnam, I can guarantee you that the draft is coming SOON....bush* can't keep enough YOUNG and dumb people in the military without his current 'back-door draft' (holding people in the military AGAINST THEIR WILL, after their service terms are up), bush* is currently 5000 SHORT of Air National Guard recruitment requirements....there'll be a FLOOD of exits from the military ASAP if bush* backs off the 'back-door draft' (called a 'stop order')....OLD guys are being called to duty in Iraq (my friend Dave went, and he is 54 YEARS OLD !!!)....bush* needs YOUNG soldiers, and YOU are it....added plus for reTHUGlicans, a draft reduces the numbers of unemployed, and in their little minds, takes away all the social problems caused by having all those YOUNG whipper snappers running around committing crimes and dealing drugs....go look up McNamama's 100,000 if you want to see how the draft works...it's just swipe of the pen for bush*, if he gets re-selected...

just like Vietnam, it's real simple for the Government...bush* doesn't have enough soldiers to run his WAR-PROFITTEERING madness, and our YOUNG are available.....

didn't YOU already REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT, when you turned 18????
may I remind YOU what that is all about????
it means that bush* can call YOU anytime he wants....the only way to stop bush* now is to VOTE BUSH OUT !!!!
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I do plan on voting against Bush
But thank's for the reminder.

So you contend that President Bush can reinstate the draft by executive order?
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. With a declaration of War
which he has from our repug congress, yes.

In vietnam, technically without a formal declaration of war, the draft became a reality.

However, as I understand it, nobody tested the draft in court on the legality of the war with the declaration lacking. The prosecution would have probably dropped any charges against somebody refusing to go into the service if the inductee had raised that sort of defence, but only if the refusal came before an oath was taken. The procecution knew it was not a legally declared war and to allow a court test would have been a disaster for that administration.

But with Iraq, there is a declaration and with a declaration of war, citizens are obligated to serve if called or face jail. That is why the representatives of "we the people" are the only ones that can declare war. Because that declaration obligates the people.
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Carson Donating Member (560 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. No, no draft.
From www.factcheck.org

"It's quite true that the two bills mentioned would require both men and women aged 18 through 25 to perform a two-year period of "national service," which incidentally could be either military or non-military service. But the bills are sponsored only by Democrats, and there's not the slightest evidence that the Bush administration is pushing for them, quietly or otherwise.

One bill is HR 163 , whose principal sponsor is Democratic Rep. Charles Rangel of New York. It has 14 co-sponsors, all of them Democrats in a Congress controlled by Republicans . . .

The identical Senate bill, S. 89 , introduced by Democratic Sen. Ernest Hollings, and also was DOA. Not one other senator has co-sponsored it. It also sits in committee with no action scheduled or expected.

Both bills in question were drawn up before the Iraq war started, mostly to make a political point... "


I think the point was that not just poor kids would have to go to war.
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. Not gonna happen.
Don't worry about it. Even if they wanted to, there would be a filibuster in the Senate.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am sorry to say, but yes
unless we can get a lot of international help or we just walk away from Iraq, there is no way to maintain peace with the troop level there now.

In the end though, I think we will just walk away, like Vietnam. But it will take many more deaths until the protests here become so large that the politicians will come-up with some slogan like "Peace with Honor" or some other bullshit that we will just pack the bags and leave.

In truth, there is no 'good' solution now. We will leave and there will be a period of peace, then civil war in Iraq with the strongest winning or the country fragmenting.

I doubt the 14 permanent bases will be abandoned though. At least not while there is oil.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. The draft boards are being restaffed
because the terms of the current members are bout to expire. They serve 20 year terms.
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Buck Rabbit Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. Not needed, even for PNAC part 2.
The next PNAC wars, be it Syria or Iran, will be punitive, roll through, crush the locals and withdrawal back to Camp Iraq. No attempt to win hearts and minds, no occupation. Once locked away in the confines of the easily defensible bases, the troops will not be required to fight the insurgents and keep order in Iraq, that bloody job will be up to the Iraqi national guard.

The longer the insurgency lasts the better for the PNACers as it justifies the US presence. A symbiotic relationship develops like that between the Likud and Hamas, each depending on the actions of the other to maintain their popular power base.

The size of the army will be greatly supplemented by private contractors. You give all the army cooks and support personnel rifles and pay Halliburton to do all the noncombat work effectively doubling your combat force. Of coarse Halliburton will charge several more times what it would cost for the army to do it themselves but there is a lot of oil to pay for that, and defecits aren't this generations problem anyway.

I would also expect to see a Kurdish militia loyal to the US to be formed to do some of the dirty work, much like the Montagnards were used by US special forces in Vietnam, or as the British used the Sikhs in India. Another option would be to sell out these same Kurds in exchange for a huge commitment of Turkish troops.

Please don't flame me for spelling out the game plan of empire. I just believe everything is going right on plan for the PNACers and that the insurgency was both expected and needed by them. The only thing that really stands in their way is this election. Once they get their foothold established they can rule by fear and the manipulation of perpetual terrorism and easily pass the torch to Jeb in 2008. We have to stop them this year before it is too late.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. Army isn't meeting their recruit goals.
Right now the Army is not pulling in enough people to meet recruit goals, however they ARE shipping enough to basic to meet quota. That's because of something called the Delayed Entry Program or DEP. Here's the problem, the DEP pool is pretty much completly depleted at this point. Which means sometime this month or next, or if they get really ingenius in December, they will no longer meet ship quota. And when that happens you can expect the shit to hit the fan so to speak.

Does this mean there will be a draft, maybe, maybe not. But right now they can't offer enough to get new recruits. How much would you take to get killed for a pointless war that clearly has no purpose and only appears to benefit the rich? I think if Bush is re-elected there will be a draft, as he has no possibility of being re-elected, and therefore nothing to lose.
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