I hate to say this but Nader is right on the real issues that affect most

[ladybugg33]

people. He sounds more like Dennis Kucinich and I loved DK. But if Nader were sincere, he would get out of the race and lobby for more influence with the Dems to get Kerry elected and then hold Kerry's feet to the fire.

[apnu]

1. don't be lured to the dark side...

DK is the real deal, Nader is burnt out.

[dzoner]

8. And ANGRY

He spent the last 3 days prior to the 2000 election running around FL blaring out how Gore was no different then Bush, probably will be back again this Oct 29th.

[kikiek]

2. Or if he were sincere he would have worked on a real 3rd party for last 4

years. Just shows up to complain, but doesn't do anything to build it up.

[Hokie]

3. Nadir

'nuff said..

[jadedcherub]

80. heh.

[Atman]

4. Dennise K!

Connecticut was a safe state in the primaries...Kerry already had it in the bag, so I voted for Dennis. He really does have it all together, policy-wise. Too bad he is so...so...unpresidential. Nader is just a crazy ego-maniac.

[SarahB]

26. Me too!

Also in CT and I had been a Dean supporter because I thought he was as left as we could go that was still electable, but by the time our primary came along, Kerry was already well in the lead. Kucinich was my heart, so he got my vote. Kerry is a good man and will get my vote, but Kucinich is closer to what I believe.
AS far as Nadar, after he accepted donations from conservative groups whose only agenda is to "divide and conquer" the left, I lost respect for him. To say there was no difference between Kerry and Bush (or Gore and Bush back in 2000) has also proved to be very, very wrong- dangerously wrong. Yes, election reforms are needed, but I'm not willing to give up my country for another 4 years to a Republican administration to prove a point.

edit:spelling

[Atman]

33. Great quote, Sarahbelle!

I'm not willing to give up my country for another 4 years to a Republican administration to prove a point.

Eff Nader.

[SarahB]

41. Thanks!

:thumbsup:

[Pithlet]

52. I second that.

Great quote :thumbsup:

[susanna]

64. That's what I thought...

after watching Ralph tonight. He is STILL saying there is no difference between Dems and GOPs. What PLANET does this man live on? How can he look in a mirror?

Yes, the Dems have grown too comfortable with the corp $$$$. But would they, by any stretch, pull the cr4p this admin has? I DON'T think so.

Nader needs medication, IMNSHO. ;-)

[Downtown Hound]

5. Nader is the mad prophet

He may say the right things about the issues, but the man himself is a psycho loony.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

6. Dennis Kucinich and Paul Wellstone are "right on the real issue"!

Ralph Nader is in bed with Sean "Hitler" Hannity!!! How can you say that Nade(R) is "right on the issues"??? He is WRONG! He is an opportunist of the worst kind!!!

[troublemaker]

7. For all US progressives thinking of voting for someone other than Kerry

This Berube piece is good to spread around.

For all US progressives thinking of voting for someone other than Kerry

Maybe you’re fond of speaking of the “corporate duopoly” of American politics– and I admit that the phrase does roll nicely off the tongue. Or maybe you like to imagine that there’s a groundswell of hundreds of millions of people around the globe who believe that Kerry and Bush are just two different brands of detergent, even though actual polls show wide margins of support for Kerry in other nations. Or maybe you just think it’s smart, cool, and alternative to dismiss both guys as “millionaires” or “Skull and Bones men,” because you know better than to buy into “the system.”

But your political stance really means one of two things. Either:

(a) you are unaware of the extent to which the Bush crowd consists of kleptomaniac Contra-funding retreads, neo-segregationists associated with Confederate outlets like Southern Partisan magazine and the Council of Conservative Citizens, and Christian fundamentalist jihadists who believe themselves to be the instruments of God; or

(b) you are sublimely indifferent to the fact that the Bush crowd consists of kleptomaniac Contra-funding retreads, neo-segregationists associated with Confederate outlets like Southern Partisan magazine and the Council of Conservative Citizens, and Christian fundamentalist jihadists who believe themselves to be the instruments of God.

<more>

http://www.michaelberube.com/EE/index.php/weblog/for_all_us_progressives_thinking_of_voting_for_someone_other_than_kerry/

[lightbulb]

9. His positions are great for the most part, but

He is a TRAITOR. If he steals one vote from Kerry in this election and * wins, Nader will never be forgiven by this doomed world.

[dzoner]

10. And ANGRY

He spent the last 3 days prior to the 2000 election running around FL blaring out how Gore was no different then Bush, probably will be back again this Oct 29th.

[aquart]

11. Bush tells people what they want to hear, too.

It's time to understand what a hypocrite is. What a liar is.

Nader is a man working to destroy the United States so its pathetic and betrayed people will turn to him for salvation.

You really have to stop your ears against the siren's song, Ulysses.

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Well, vote for Kerry this fall, then come meet up with some Greens and

work for election reform. ;)

[speedoo]

13. So am I.

But that does not mean I should do anything to threaten the country with 4 more years of shrubco.

Fuck Nader. He's a egomaniacal traitor/

[Newkophile]

14. If Nader were really sincere....

he would have run for a lesser office in the past, perhaps having become a Senator by now. What Nader supporters fail to even acknowledge is that, in the very unlikely possibility that he were to be elected, he would not have a clue nor the team necessary to effect a transfer a power, appoint Cabinet members, etc. The man sits on the sidelines for years and gets his ass up once every four years to create havoc. He's a total sham.

[dzoner]

15. Well Put

Well Put!!!!

[69KV]

19. A very good point

Nader could easily have been elected to the U.S. Congress, had he chosen to run for Congress as a Democrat. Maybe even the Senate.

Sadly, he has blown that chance. I say sadly because he is so right on so many issues. Now, he's just ensured that he will be a marginal figure on the fringes, with no influence.

I have reached the conclusion long ago that the place to be working is within the Democratic Party. That goes for Nader, it goes for anyone else tempted to throw valuable time and money down the third party rathole. We have a "big tent" party that has room for the Naderites, Greens, Perotistas, honest conservatives who hate Bush and like civil liberties, and anyone else who is serious about working together on the national political stage to make things better.

[merh]

59. How can anyone say that Nader "is right on the issues" when

he has never had to take action to prove that he believes what he says? He is all talk and has been for years. He has never held an office and been put in the position to have to prove that he believes in what he professes. Actions speak louder than the empty words that Nader spouts.

It is easy to blame all the woes of society on politicians when you refuse to get in the game and take action by holding an office and by trying to work to make changes.

Nader is simply an opportunist that has sold his soul to the evil BFEE. Funny thing is, those repukes that cannot bring themselves to vote for the democratic candidate will vote for Nader over *.

[welshTerrier2]

62. by your own standard then, you're not right either ...

if we apply your standard (never held office and been put in the position to prove what he professes) to all politicians, we would only be able to elect (i.e. re-elect) incumbents ...

no one campaigning on a set of ideas who had not "tested" those ideas in office would qualify ... that's a pretty tough test you've designed ...

[merh]

63. How do you know that I have never held office?

Nader has never put his words into action, at least not in the last 12 years or so. I challenge everyone to try to serve in office, to try to win a post, then they will understand the complexities and the need for nuances.

It is not a tough test, it is reality. Besides, I was talking about the wasted effort that is Nader.

[69KV]

16. You may be right...

But Nader's deciding to run this year reflects very badly on his judgement. There is no room in 2004, not with the national crisis we are in with the Bush regime, to consider anyone else.

The sad thing is Nader could have ensured himself a platform to get his ideas a hearing on the national political scene, if he had decided to work within the Democratic Party and help get Kerry elected. Instead, he has ensured that he will be on the fringes and ineffective for the indefinite future.

I hope Nader reads this. I doubt he will listen because thousands of people have said the same thing, and he hasn't listened yet, just gotten more stubborn. The most important thing he could do right now to salvage his reputation would be to drop out of the race, right now, and endorse Kerry.

[welshTerrier2]

17. i totally agree ..

Nader has much better positions on almost every issue than most Democrats ... every issue except for one ...

he should be working for Kerry like the rest of us ... he shouldn't have run in 2000 and he shouldn't be running now ... to do otherwise, he puts himself ahead of the needs of the country ...

[Robbie67]

20. Frederick Douglass

"Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will."

[welshTerrier2]

44. "people who want crops without ploughing the ground"

it really doesn't matter to me what Nader wants or whether he's willing to honor his beliefs or anything else ... I make no defense of Nader's conduct ... in fact, I think I was very clear in being critical of his conduct ...

but that does not detract one iota from my agreement with his ideas ... i applaud the message, not the messenger ... i have no criticism of the quote you posted except to say that i didn't think it responsive to my post ...

[Robbie67]

53. I think it was

but that's just me

[welshTerrier2]

56. well, that's OK ...

so let's discuss it ... if i understand the gist of the quote, the point was that Nader "wants crops without plowing the fields" ...

i would understand this phrase to suggest that you see Nader as someone not willing to make much effort or have much commitment to his ideas ... perhaps it suggests that you see him as lazy or perhaps too theoretical ... he's not willing to personally invest in achieving what he talks about ... if that's a reasonable understanding, i saw nothing in my original post to indicate that i put any stock whatsoever in Nader's "actions" ...

i certainly made no statement suggesting he was a hard working candidate with deeply held beliefs for which he was prepared to make great sacrifices ... it seemed the quote you posted somehow took issue with what i wrote ... it's not clear to me, however, how it related to my appreciation for Nader's ideas ... even using the phrase "wants crops without plowing the fields", my point using this analogy would be that i support Nader's call for raising crops ... i would argue that we need "crops" ... the fact that Nader may not have a realistic plan to achieve the successful growing of crops was not the point i was making ... only that his understanding of what's wrong with our current system and what objectives he sets have merit ...

how we should go about achieving these objectives or whether Nader is an appropriate standard bearer to help us achieve them is a matter beyond the scope of what i posted ...

[dzoner]

22. 2000 election

If he was honest to his principles he would have opened his mind to the obvious disaster even 4 yrs of Bush would produce and if really worried about those 50% he claims support him he would have gone over to Gore and worked within.

[welshTerrier2]

46. "If he was honest to his principles"

again, i made no commendation of Nader ... i made no statement suggesting Nader was, or was not, "honest to his principles" ... but his understanding of the fundamental struggle we face is more sharply and more accurately stated than what i've heard from most democrats ...

your post repeats what i myself had stated: "he shouldn't have run in 2000" ... could i have stated this any more clearly ??

I have no disagreement at all with those who seek to attack Nader for enabling bush ... what Nader has done is tragic ... his "electoral" strategy is destructive and inexcusable ... but his failure in this area does not mean we should automatically stand in opposition to his ideas on other issues ... each idea should be judged on its own merit ... Nader will never win my vote ... but that's not the case for many of his ideas ...

btw, dznoner, welcome to DU !!

[autorank]

18. I hate for you to say it...and I will not fight to the death to defend

your right to say it.

There is an election in a couple of weeks. The outcome will determine the future and perhaps survival of the world as we know it or would like it to be.

The reason we're in this position is because people voted for Nader in Florida instead of Gore.

Speaking about Nader in a way that may encourage even one voter to feel "permission" to vote for him is aiding Bush.

What a shame!

[Robbie67]

25. Someone needs permission to vote for someone in this country?

My civics class must have been all wrong.

[autorank]

29. Welcome to DU! "Permission" was in quotes because I meant...

it in the personal sense...you know, Kerry is not politically perfect, therefore I'll vote for Nader. This is one you'd learn in psychology. Enjoy DU!

[Robbie67]

39. self-permission?

OK.

Thanks for the welcome.

[autorank]

50. You are correct. I should have used that in the 1st place!

Party on (DEM style).

[DrWeird]

21. LOL.

nt

[RandomKoolzip]

40. *sigh* Oh, how shocking. *yawn*

NewsFlash, everyone! Disruptor Fails to Respond to Drive-by Flamebait Reply Posts! Film at eleven.

[eridani]

23. Compare Nader to Ron Paul

Paul is co-author of the Benjamin Franklin True Patriot Act with Kucinich, and voted against the original one and against the war.

He used to be a perennial Libertarian candidate for president, but finally (unlike Nader), ran for a lesser office in one of the major parties (Republican) and now is a real elected official, who actually had the power to vote against the PATRIOT Act and the war.

If Nader and other people agreeing with his platform would have done the same starting 20 years ago, we wouldn't be in the deep shit we are now in.

[dave502d]

24. Yes, but how would he git any bills passed.

[dzoner]

27. Why Reps want Nader

Seems to me that Nader may be more wanted by the Reps. to confuse exit polls thus making it easier to play with votes,

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

34. and you should be ashamed....

The poster expressed an honest sentiment in a respectful manner. your response was neither intellectually honest nor civil and respectful.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

60. "You should hate yourself."?

A poster has the gall to admire Nader's positions, even though she doesn't agree with his run for the presidency, and she should hate herself?

Wank, wank, wank.

[BUSHOUT]

83. Yep, if she feels the need to post this crap 2 weeks out....

look in mirron and say "I HATE ME!!!"

snif.

[ulysses]

85. here comes the clue bus.

The election isn't going to turn on whether or not someone posts something vaguely positive about Nader on DU in the final two weeks of the election season. Get a grip.

[BUSHOUT]

86. Thanks for that. n/t

[ulysses]

87. you're welcome. n/t

[mike_c]

30. most of these replies fail to address the essential point...

...that much of Nader's commentary about politics in America, his criticism of foreign and domestic policies, and his outing of corporate control of government are right on. Republicans and Democrats really are two sides of the same coin, and although George Bush is arguably one of the lowest life forms to inhabit the White House in recent memory, voting for either heads or tails still gets you the same rotten nickle that's firmly in the same capitain of industry's pocket.

Nader should not have run in this election. Nonetheless, we NEED his voice calling a spade a spade. Dennis Kucinich should never have conceded the race-- he was right in nearly every respect, but guess what?-- Nader is still being heard and Kucinich is not. His message still resonates with progressives, but he has allowed himself to be silenced, and the Democratic party has turned its back on him. Democrats and other progressives expressing support for his message were ejected from the national convention. I wouldn't be surprised if the party leadership turns their back on his next re-election campaign.

I agree with ladybug33-- Nader is right on most of the issues that matter to me. I also agree that he wouldn't be an effective president, but someone has to keep the message alive.

[dzoner]

32. Reply

Message might just live better w Kerry.

[Robbie67]

43. I keep hearing

that as liberal as Nader is he should be within the Democratic party to properly fight the fight from within party unity

Isn't that what Dennis Kucinich was doing? Were any of his policy issues integrated into the party platform?

[mike_c]

91. no they were not....

I fervently hope Kucinich runs as a Green one day, but I doubt it will happen.

[welshTerrier2]

51. "two sides of the same coin"

for those whose central focus is the corporate control of government (as it should be), one must draw this essential conclusion ... the phrase does NOT mean that there is NO DIFFERENCE between democrats and republicans ... but it does suggest that neither party is adequately addressing the war we are in ...

my hope is that if Kerry gets in, he'll move to the left ... my hope is that he'll help us take our country back from our corporate overlords ... this has not been the historical pattern with democrats ... democrats pick at the edges of the battle ... minimum wage, workers' rights, family leave act ... all very good legislation ... but the greater problem is that we have no power ... the real deal is that our democracy has been sold to mega-multi-national corporations ...

i'm with Kerry all the way through the election ... after that, he moves left or the war begins ...

[RandomKoolzip]

31. Wait a minute: weren't you the same person who was here during the debate,

the third one, who said, "Guys! Bush is winning!"

And weren't you the same one who then raised a stink about "free speech" when we dared disagree?






Hmmm...you guys smell somethin'?

[DrWeird]

36. Sure is.

nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. I'm smellin' somethin', too....and it ain't what the Rock is cookin'!!

[Swamp Rat]

35. Here he comes to save the day!

[blm]

37. Really? What are his foreign policy intentions? Has he studied the world's

religions and cultures and how they effect their regional governing policies?

Kerry has. Kerry also has investigated and exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history. Kerry has helped to end three wars.

[Cat Atomic]

38. There's only one vote for liberals this time, and it's Anti-Fascism.

I usually vote Green, and I volunteered time for Kucinich during the primaries- I'm pretty liberal. I have to think most people like me realize that this election is truly unusual. I'm not even hoping for progress this time. I'm just hoping to avoid WWIII.

[sendero]

45. It is quite possible....

... to want to go to a certain place but to have no freaking idea how to get there. George W. Bush is a perfect example, and so is Ralph Nader.

[carpetbagger]

47. Nader's like a fireman who shows up with a rubber chicken.

Sure, he may have the sweetest intentions about saving kitty from the burning house, but that is completely beside the point.

[Old and In the Way]

48. Nader is inconsequential and a distraction.

His message is negated by his need for ego gratification. What issues he is right on is meaningless. He can only help Bush by diffusing the progressive opposition.

Anyone posting support for Nader here must be really starved for attention.

[NightTrain]

49. I agree with about 95% of Nader's stances. However...

...I really, really wish that he had stayed out of this year's presidential race!

[progressivebydesign]

54. Anyone can give a speech!! Even Bush could say those things..

Doesn't change the fact that Nader is a self-promoting fraud, who takes money from the people he supposedly despises. Hell.. I could write a speech just like Naders, just because someone SAYS they support this or that, doesn't mean shit.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. If Nader were sincere, he wouldn't have accepted GOP money for....

...the purposes of running Nader ads in the Northwest during the 2000 Campaign.

If he were sincere, he wouldn't be running as a third party, but HELPING Kerry get elected as the one best hope for supporting environmental issues.

"Hold Kerry's feet to the fire"?? He's not even worthy of TOUCHING Kerry's feet.

[Forkboy]

58. right message,wrong messenger

[ulysses]

66. maybe,

but no one is the *right* messenger for the message that folks don't want to hear.

[Forkboy]

68. This is true

but I think Nader has to much baggage at this point,both deserved and not deserved.People focus on him more than his overall message.

[ulysses]

71. much agreed. n/t

[sangh0]

61. I hate to say this, but "being right on the real issues" is not the issue

It's "who can actually CHANGE things and make the better"

IOW, making right is much better then being right.

[ulysses]

65. it's as much the issue

as winning without any purpose.

[sangh0]

69. I agree

Neither of them are the issue.

uly, you think maybe that's why I said the issue is ""who can actually CHANGE things and make the better", or did I do it just to deprive you of the pleasure of engaging innuendo?

[ulysses]

72. you're agreeing with something I didn't say, you clever soul you.

But you knew that. :)

[sangh0]

73. Silly boy, I never said YOU said it

I just said I agree that it's not the issue.

But you knew that

[ulysses]

74. you agreed in response to my post.

Nice try, though. Good to know that some things never change. :D

[sangh0]

75. Figure that all out by yourself?

"you agreed in response to my post."

Yes, some things never change, like your perceptiveness.

[ulysses]

76. or your desire

to change the subject when you're cornered. :D

[sangh0]

81. cornered?

what are you talking about? This is a new development. You've never been incoherent before

[ulysses]

82. and I'm not now.

You figure it out. :D

[Forkboy]

88. Why bother Uly?

seriously...you can save yourself some hassle and just slam your head into a wall repeatedly :)

[ulysses]

89. oh hell, I'm having fun.

:) Remember, I teach middle schoolers...

[ulysses]

90. it's a neat trick

to edit a post well back in a thread. I guess. You never cease to amaze.

[DuaneBidoux]

67. We know...but let's stop the slide toward fascism first

then we can work on the good stuff.

[T Town Jake]

70. I hate to say this but posts like this tend to be the work of...

...(Deleted Message - Click here to review the message board rules)

Just IMO, of course.

[Sugarbleus]

77. I agree. I think the man has lost his credibility though..

I never paid any attention to him before. I listened to a few speeches he gave recently via C-span and cable news shows. I liked what I heard...............BUT he has lost his mind in that he should have come into the race like everyone else did...FROM THE BEGINNING. Instead of jumping into the fray as a spoiler midstream!

I'm a FIRM believer in a multiple party system. I hope Nader or someone taking up his reins sometime in the future will run again...but do it the right way. Yes, I think he should step down for the sake of the race but I still like what he has to say. I very much liked Kucinich and gave my vote to him first. I'm a firm supporter of Kerry at this time. He is a good man; a BETTER man than Bush by leaps and bounds..but he is also neo-liberal..too much into the corporate thingy than I like.

I'm ANTI-GLOBALISM AND NAFTA ET AL..Kerry is FOR those things. Kerry and Clinton KILLED THE WELFARE PROGRAM and called it "reform". Bush wants to "REFORM" social security...I'm not liking anything that has the word "reform" attached to it these days. x(

I DO think Repubs and Dems (today's Dems) are too similar. I want the old fashioned FDR, LBJ type Dem back...Or some newer, fresher version of same. I'm a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT. I'm proud of that. It's the only way for all people to enjoy their lives and have things run smoother. Nader and Kucinich, so far, are the only ones that come close to those ideals. They aren't running or likely to win anything, so I have no choice left but Kerry/Edwards.........OR *GAG ME* Bush :puke:

I applaud your courage for bringing this up. Sometimes people get really narrow minded about what is and isn't okay to discuss.

I agree too that we, who have more progressive/socialistic ideas, SHOULD hold Kerry's, and other dem's feet to the fire to ensure they don't "forget" us and go off in a direction different from what we expect.

Waiting to exhale, SB

[JVS]

78. Perhaps running is Nader's way of holding Kerry's feet to the fire

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

79. You don't remodel the house...

while it's on fire.

And the house is most definitely on fire.

[NEDem]

84. I agree with much of what Nader says

However I think he's a disgusting egotist and a disgrace to the left. I hate him almost as much as shrub these days. And I actually voted for him last time. (please don't hate me for that, I live in a red state and it just didn't matter in the outcome) This time its Kerry all the way!!