What are your thoughts on sex offender registries?

[LostInAnomie]

Is it a modern day scarlet letter, or is it a pragmatic way to keep an eye on perverts?

[tinanator]

1. people overreact and persecute sick people

I personally think parents and society should be held responsible for the safety of all children. Preventative security is the only kind.

[x-g.o.p.er]

6. And one of the ways to safely protect your child...

is to know where sex offenders live, and not move into the area. That's why I personally think making them register is a good thing for a community and a neighborhood to know.

As a dad with three girls, it's something I am very concerned about.

[tinanator]

19. another one

is to know where they are (your kids) because NO WAY do you know where all the pervs are, so that list means nothing in the end.
Schools, teachers, churches, preachers. Those lists are a means to the wrong end.

[Ladyhawk]

33. Sex perverts are very good at luring children away.

I know. I was molested by a church-goer when I was 8. Even though my parents kept tabs on me, they assumed their fellow church-goer was clean. He wasn't. I wanted to yell, "Don't let me go alone with him!" but I was too afraid.

One of his excuses? He wanted me to help him find his bible.

Yet another child molested in a church...

[ArkDem]

38. When I was growing up the son of my Pastor

killed my pet king snake. You can't trust christians.

[tinanator]

40. holy cow that really sucks

Ive been through similar experiences. How sick people can be. I would hate to have my gray banded killed by some messed up punk. When I can do it myself if Im not careful...

[Ladyhawk]

44. Gray-banded king? How beautiful. :)

Here is my Aragorn, the Arizona Mt. King:

[tinanator]

72. awesome!

Someday Id like to have a zonata. Gave one to the local zoo breeder guy. He forgot all about it real quick. Shoulda kept it. I just got a Brazilian Rainbow Boa baby female. Beautiful snake, I really like it. Used to have Mojave Greens and an Arizona Blacktail.
take care!

[Ladyhawk]

43. I know...my Christian gym teacher killed my garter snake. :(

Just one of my many memories of fundy life. :(

[eissa]

86. Parents can't watch you 24/7

My parents were incredibly strict, but a pedophile still managed to get to me. As a mother, I want that list available. Wouldn't you want to know if the government started dumping cancer-causing chemical waste next to your home? How is this different?

[Skittles]

57. sex offenders are EVERYWHERE

most often in the child's OWN HOME

[SoCalDem]

60. Craving the sexual attention of children is not curable.

These offenders are always dangerous.
I was molested as a child, and I can tell you that I was not the first, nor was I the last..

Jail time is more significant these days, but it's the kind of "sickness" that never goes away..


I would prefer that the age of the child abused time 10, be the sentence.

Sorry..but that's the only way to protect kids..

You can be assured, that most offenders are not "first-time offenders" when they are "caught"..

No matter how well you teach your kids, they are ALWAYS vulnerable to people who prey on children..

It;s no surprise when a "respected member of the community...father of 4...cub scout leader....teacher...pastor...priest... etc" are the ones caught.. People who "need" children, deliberately choose professions/lifestyles that keep them close to their prey..

If parents want to keep their children safe, they just need to make sure that they are never "alone" with males above the age of 12 (sorry guys, but MOST offenders are male)...

Family members "can" be offenders too, so keep that radar active..

[philosophie_en_rose]

71. No one deserves child molestation.

According to your statement, child molestors are like wild dogs that roam around and it's up to parents to prevent molestation. First of all, most child molestors molest someone that they know. They gain the trust of the entire family and then abuse that trust.

Second, many child molestors rape their own children. There is nothing that "society" or "parents" can do about that until it happens. Nothing. If the children are brave enough to report, it's the first notice to anyone that something is wrong. In the mean, the predator's nieces and nephews and other family members are at risk. Who would suspect?

Parents have an obligation to do what is in their power. Sex offenders lose the right to privacy.

The sex offender registry is not a scarlet letter. It's community awareness, so that rapists don't work in nursing homes and schools and neighbors are aware of the risk.

Sex offenders could be anyone and parents need to make safe choices. However, let's not excuse child rape by blaming anyone but the perpetrator.

[movonne]

2. This is one of those that I can't decide...It seems from what I heard

that a great number are repeats, so what do you do in this case, we have to have some way to keep track of them..any suggestions??

[Shoeempress]

3. Sex offenders are the most likely to repeat and more like to kill their

victims next time so they won't get caught. Happened in a suburb outside of Boston last year. Released sex offender went to house near girlfriend's, raped and killed Mom & daughter. Since these are one of the least redeemable of offenders, society needs to protect itself. Don't have a problem with convicted rapists, especially with sadistic tendencies having to Id themselves. Also, you have to go and look for the registry to see who is on.

[tinanator]

4. there seems like a good solution and deterrent

Its called castration. But not in this patriarchal society.

[DrWeird]

7. The 8th amendment is patriachial?

Anywho, there was a DUer who's son was a "registered sex offender." Can't remember the details but he was 19 or so and his lover was 16 or 17, just a couple months from that particular states legal limit. Her parents decided to press charges for statuatory rape. Now he's a convicted sex offender, will never have a decent job, and every few month they bring him in for testing and show him pictures of child pornography to make sure he doesn't get aroused. Seems pretty draconian to me. How castration would improve that I have no idea.

[tinanator]

11. dont think for a second Im suggesting that would be appropriate

but repeat serious offenders (much older vs much younger for one thing) deserve to be put on notice.

[abburdlen]

23. No it isn't a good solution

Most sex crimes aren't really about sex. There are about power and control. If a sicko can't get it up, he'll use a foreign object.

Personally I think if as a society we believe someone is still a threat then don't let them out. I think some people can be reformed, but others are just not right and never will be.

[serryjw]

5. Life in prison WITHOUT parole

sorry, we have no idea what causes it and the majority do re-offend. You can not keep woman or children safe from them. This is far worse than any murder. MOST murders are not random and here are extenuating circumstances. they serve their time and can easily become a member of society (except for lack of jobs!) but sex offenders can't.
I remember a case of child abuse that they cleared the father........and later found out if was the grandfather in a wheel chair!

[tinanator]

8. how many falsely imprisoned or falsely charged?

I dont think relying on a corrupt system is a good idea.

[Shoeempress]

10. No argument here, but try and get legislators agree to that. Too busy

putting some kid in jail for a joint and let the violent offenders go to make room. The laws are so f'd up.

[George_S]

25. Common misunderstanding

Contrary to the generalized view of sexual offenders as predatory strangers prowling for victims in public places, relatively few sexual crimes (23%) involved a stranger to the victim. When the victim is a child or a youth, the rate of stranger victimization is even lower, at 16%. In over one-third of the incidents involving a child or youth, the accused was, in fact, a family member. Most sexual assaults, over two-thirds, occur in homes, with the remainder occurring in public areas (17%) or commercial/ public institutions (16%). A sex offender registry will not protect people from victimization by a parent or other family member in their homes.

A common belief, and one that seems to have been critical to the development of sex offender registries and other notification systems, is that all sex offenders re-offend sexually. A followup study of sex offenders released from federal penitentiaries in Canada found that less than one in 10 were convicted of a new sexual offence during the follow-up period which averaged 3.5 years. A review of 61 studies dating from 1943 to 1995 relating to sex offender recidivism found the overall sexual recidivist rate was 13% over a five year follow-up period. One longterm follow-up study in California found that 20% of sex offenders first arrested in 1973 had been rearrested for a sex offence by 1988. This means that 4 out of 5 sex offenders did not re-offend sexually over a 15 year period

http://www.johnhoward.on.ca/Library/Fctsheet/16-3.htm

[serryjw]

39. Sorry ...you didn't convice me.......

Bushit also has proof that Saddam had WMD! I don't care if it is a family member or a starnger, they do re-offend.This is a crime of violence and cant be stopped...NO ONE RAPES ONCE!

[George_S]

47. Nothing ruins a good theory like...

... a few facts. :)

Proposition 66 in California is set to fix the Three Strikes Law. The strikes will have to be violent if it passes and that will release a lot of inmates sentences for non-violent, non-serious 3rd strikes.

Added to it is a 1 strike against child molesters.

Sex Offenders of Children Under 14 Years of Age

This measure increases a prison sentence to 6, 8, or 12 years for the first conviction for sexual penetration or oral copulation with a minor who is under the age of 14 and more than 10 years younger than the offender. However, if the victim is under the age of 10, the district attorney has the discretion to seek imprisonment of 25 years to life. This measure requires that a second conviction for these offenses shall result in a sentence of 25 years to life. It also requires the state to provide counseling services for these offenders while they are in prison and for at least one year following release from prison.

http://www.voterguide.ss.ca.gov/propositions/prop66-title.htm

Probably what will happen is that incest offenders will be the most likely to be sentenced under this law since they commit the vast majority of offenses against children, and they are the least likely to re-offend.

True, rapists are the most likely to re-offend: 19%.

Google is cool :)

[serryjw]

52. OMG are you mixing multiple conversations

I have not read the specific 3 strikes bill on the ballot in CA BUT I am against a mandatory 3 strike for NON violent crimes.


Probably what will happen is that incest offenders will be the most likely to be sentenced under this law since they commit the vast majority of offenses against children, and they are the least likely to re-offend. this is absolutely Bushit. Most incest offenders do it ONLY because it is convenient, victimize all their children and move on.


The problem is we don't have a good batting average for finding them. Kids don't usually tell their parents,offenders are in positions of trust and are not easily identified.
There is no way I am going to believe that a rapist only re-offends 19% of the time. I doubt if any serious 25 year studies have been done. They are not tracking nationwide the offender.I think it is possible that the rapist is more of a life long problem than the incest offender
http://www.feminist.com/rainn.htm

[George_S]

55. Studies have been done

And some organzations are doing something about it. It's a terrible problem even if not as bleak as so many seem to think. Breaking the chain of abuse is what will solve it.

http://www.stopitnow.com/comquest.html#Q6

There are differences in recidivism rates for different types of offenders; rapists were more likely to recidivate sexually (19%) than were sex offenders (13%) (Hanson and Bussiere, 1996).

http://www.stopitnow.com/csafacts.html

19% is still too high. Treatment can cut that way down.

Can Sexual Abusers Ever Be Cured?

With specialized treatment, a sex offender who accepts full accountability for his or her crime can learn to control his or her abusive behavior. The public holds the myth that sex offenders have the highest recidivism rate of any crime. In reality, the recidivism rate for most sex offenders is similar to the recidivism rates for other crimes, and significantly lower when the abuser gets specialized treatment as part of his or her criminal sentence. (Hanson, 2000)

The incest stats are also at that site.

Where does everyone get the 90% to 100% recidivism stats? Karl Rove?

[sandnsea]

56. This study disagrees

The problem with sex offenders is that the damage they inflict is different and has more psychological effects than other crimes. We're nowhere near being able to discern who will and won't reoffend. Until then, with recidivism rates like this study shows, life without parole. Which doesn't mean we have to put them in the worst facilities possible. But it is the surest way to reduce all kinds of future criminal problems in this society.

http://www.johnhoward.ab.ca/docs/sxoffend/page1.htm

[George_S]

59. What happened?

That's the same site I linked to in the beginning.

http://www.johnhoward.on.ca/Library/Fctsheet/16-3.htm

This is getting confusing. Where does the 13% come in? Why is stopitnow.com stating 13%?

Given the stat in your link, you're saying out of 10 people, 6 should get life because the other 4 will re-offend and deserve life for sure. Even if it were 50/50 I'm not sure that's the way our penal system and Constitution were designed.

Anyway, your link has different stats I don't understand so that changes things. It won't matter in California soon because with the 1 strike law most won't be getting out anyway and there is no reason for a dead person to register.

[sandnsea]

77. I understand

It's difficult and not totally fair. I suspect there's a certain amount of what a person was initially convicted of in the first place, especially these days. Young men really are being convincted of sexual offenses that would have been considered the pains of dating a few years ago. I'm not talking about real date rape, rather confused young people. Stuff like that probably skews the recidivism rates. But I think there has to be a way to identify the true child molestor and when we do, they truly don't seem to rehabilitate. Their damage to society is just too great, I don't see anything more harmful than the molesting of a child. That seems to me to be the root of most of the heinous crime that is committed by adults. Victims acting out their rage, creating more victims, viscious cycle. That's why I've come to my personal conclusion that life is the answer, although I would be more of a 2 strikes kind of person in that regard myself. Left to the discretion of a judge.

[George_S]

90. We agree

If only there were some way to sort them out, and those stats still don't make sense. Why the discrepency? What is amazing is that the panic started with false charges and spread across the county like the Salem witch hunts and has been very profitable for some.
----

While only a handful of ritual sexual abuse day care hoaxes have actually led to convictions (most of which have since been overturned) even those that resulted in acquittals, like Akiki's, reflect hundreds of children and their family members who were referred to counseling.45 In many of these cases, the families were limited to a handful of approved counselors, who also helped police and prosecutors investigate the cases by eliciting testimony from the children.46 One must wonder what these counselors counsel these children about, particularly in the cases in which the allegations were later proved to have come from them rather than from the children with whom they worked — and considering that the children in these cases began showing symptoms of abuse only after disclosing — the reverse of abused children's usual responses to counseling.47

Another less recognized result of the day care hoaxes was that they forced other day care centers to obtain heavy insurance coverage, which forced many out of business entirely, and may have increased the incentives to defraud the remaining ones.48 As a result, some areas of the country, particularly southern California, have limited if any congregate day care. This requires working mothers to pay more for individual day care (which actually makes child abuse more likely and less easy to detect), and is another hidden cost of the false allegations of abuse.49

Why do victim compensation agencies refuse to recognize (or acknowledge) that many of these cases were fabricated by the very mental health professionals who are the only people to benefit from them? Perhaps because the federal government and the National Association of Crime Victim Compensation Boards have encouraged compensation agencies and victim advocates to form partnerships.50 These partnerships have become so cozy in some states that victim advocates hold a majority of seats on advisory councils, plan and present workshops at state conferences, train police, prosecutors and compensation and child protection agency staff, evaluate victims to determine whether abuse occurred, treat those whom they determine were abused and then verify that the abuse constituted a crime reimbursable by the state victim compensation program,51 and even coach victims' testimony.52

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume9/j9_3_2.htm

[serryjw]

80. Listen to a lifetime of experience ...........

from my friend whom was a police shrink until she recently retired. You are dreaming if you think this can be helped. We are not talking about ABUSE, this can be helped with counseling. Rapists and incest perp can not be. I'm sorry the liberal sensibilites are offended, but I look to people who KNOW these preps not some PHD whom does studies in academia.
quote-------me
We are debating online if sex offenders re-offend? Can they be let out?
Your opinion,please
end quote........
quote.......answer
Absolutely, sex offenders continue to perpetrate! It is not about sex, it is about power through violence. Once a perp crosses the line into sex offender, there is no turning back. The ultimate act of victimization is to violate sexually, as that is also an act perpetrated upon one's soul. There has never been one case of a sex offender reforming nor recovering. They usually continue and advance into serial torture murder, until they are caught, and done away with within the structure of the prison system, or they are murdered through S&M, or snuff films.

Ms. Shrink
end quote...........

[George_S]

85. Link to stats that support that?

Please? I've provided links to reputable sources with studies that say differently. If you can provide studies that support this, then fine, I'll shut up. This sounds like melodramatic mumbojumbo though.

By no means does every criminal equal Richard Allen Davis who kidnapped and killed Polly Klaas and it serves no constructive purpose to equate everyone. It was this kind of hysterical panic that got California's draconian 3 strikes law passed in the beginning and that spread all over the country, though no other state's is as severe.

[serryjw]

88. That's exactly the point.......

I'll take real life over any academia study anyday.I have already said that I was opposed to a mandatory 3 strike for non violent felons...it serves no one.

By no means does every criminal equal Richard Allen Davis who kidnapped and killed Polly Klaas yes they are, just not as well know.What would you like to do with all the Catholic priests whom have been accused by dozens? Send him away for 10 years and then give him an ankle bracelet?

[George_S]

91. Still no link?

If what you say is true, there are studies to support it.

If there are no studies, then it is not true and only interferes with the solution.

Sorry, but you saying "An expert told me" doesn't cut it.

[serryjw]

93. Personally I don't care if it 'cuts it'

this is Americas little dirty dark secret that no one wants to talk about...My friend has not responded to me yet...BUT try this....Funny Oprah did a show today on child molestation..maybe you show read it.3 daughters each molested by their minister/father for over 10 years each.They FINALLY have the courage to prosecute their 66 year old father...he will spend the rest of his life in prison.....after how many victims?.
http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200410/tows_past_20041021.jhtml

Interesting article:
quote......
Approximately 1 out of 3 girls and 1 out of 5 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18.The offender who rapes and is incarcerated has had an average of 65 victims during his lifetime.The average pedophile will have an average of 244 victims in his lifetime. 42% of pedophiles begin their sexual abusing behaviors before the age of 12. 75% of all perpetrators begin offending before age 13.Abel calculated the chances of getting caught for child molestation at approximately 3%. Fewer than 1% of offenders are arrested, convicted and imprisoned.
end quote....read the article
http://www.goodtouchbadtouch.com/getinvolved.html

[George_S]

98. serryjw,

It is devastating. No one doubts that. Abuse, not only sexual, leads to personality disorders, drug and alcohol abuse, failed relationships, lack of trust of society or authority and much more.

The question is not if something needs to be done, but what would work best for the future of all children.

However, I think saying the future of an abused child is hopeless can be nearly as devastating.

We all need hope.

[Djinn]

94. I know this is a sensitive subject

but to say there isn't a case of a sex offender reforming is just not true - they aren't "cured" (I assume we're talking about offenders against children) because its very hard to change someone's sexual desires even if they are twisted they can however control those and often it's not so much a desire to abuse as a reaction to abuse of themselves which needs therapy. I'm not excusing anyone, I'm just wary of the "hang 'em" hysteria.

"They usually continue and advance into serial torture murder"

this is an absolute crock I'm afraid, yes the vast majority of people who end up torturing and killing start out with smaller abuses but the overwhelming majority of offenders do not progress to serial torture and murder, it's the same as while most heroin addicts also used marijuana at some point not all pot smokers become smackies.

I don't know how I feel about a sex offenders register - there are people who end up on it who really shouldn't be - like the case of consensual statutory rape that DrWeird outlined, less likely where I live because as long as the person you're sleeping with is no more than 2 years older than you the age of consent is quite young but in the US the laws seem a little more arbitrary.

[LuminousX]

9. Good idea, except

When that 19 year old kid gets labelled a sex offender because a 16 year old girl's parents are upset by the relationship. Yeah, yeah, I understand age of consent etc., but I'm not worried about that guy around my daughters but he has to live with the stigma of being equivalent to a rapist or pedophile.

[Shoeempress]

13. But that's not what I am talking about. Guys who get busted for peeing

outside get bagged for indecent exposure. Them i have no real concerns with, although they are pigs. I'm talking about violent sexual assaults. They should be put away forever not just to punish the crime, but to protect society.

[LuminousX]

24. I think we are on the same page

I don't think registries work because they don't really identify the dangerous individuals.

Mandatory life sentences for sexual predators would be a difficult thing to get instituted but I would be for it.

[serryjw]

46. Separate conversation........

when it is concentual and with in a few years of the minor.

[intheflow]

12. I think like all human social controls

it has the possibility to become corrupt.

I love the idea of kid-diddlers and rapists being put way, but some guy peeing by the side of a road or couples parking are not a sex offenders (http://archive.aclu.org/news/w101196b.html).

As with everything, common sense needs to be applied.

[teryang]

14. I have a positive opinion of them: story

But they don't go far enough. Here's a story:

I didn't think much about my neighbor until I asked him a computer graphics question one day (I was told that was his work) and he proceeded to inform me about some vendor who accidentally sent him two computer peripheral products by mistake when he only paid for one.

He told me with a chuckle that he wasn't going to return the other. He was doing some work for a close friend of mine, so I advised my friend that I thought he was dishonest. I did this because my wife had referred him and I didn't want either of them to be hurt. My friend informed that my neighbor had given him some bullshit story about getting caught by police with his pecker exposed in a public area adjacent a middle school grounds and being unjustly accused of indecent acts with a minor or some such. He got five years probation.

I went to the FDLE site and plugged in my zip to see if my wonderful neighbor was on there. (I have children). He wasn't. However, I found out there was a child predator living across the street and 4 or 5 more child sex offenders living a few blocks of my house! I was glad to know. Well, I didn't know what was wrong with Meggan's law because my next door neighbor wasn't on there, but I found out about a year later.

A year later, national and local law enforcement did some kind of child pornography sting. I came home after picking up my child at the bus stop and saw mayber a half a dozen police cruisers loading dipshit's hardrives into their patty wagon with him in cuffs.

About two months later, dipshit's photo and personal info appears on the FDLE website, with his address right next door to mine with the notation that his probation was revoked, he was adjudicated guilty and sent to prison for five years.

Apparently, if you have a withold adjudication on a sex offense against a child they don't put your picture on the neighborhood hall of shame. If you violate then your picture goes up when you are adjudicated guilty. So my kids were around this threat for years without knowledge. I asked his girlfriend where he was. She said he was "on vacation."

[69KV]

15. Oppose

On the grounds that once somebody has completed their debt to society they should not have to go through the rest of their lives wearing a scarlet letter, and also because one purpose of the correctional system, besides punishment, should also be rehabilitation. If sex offenders have to register and have offender notifications posted around any neighborhood where they want to live, it means there is something wrong with the correctional system as it is. It isn't working.

Edit: On the other hand, why not require them to undergo so many years of counseling after their prison term as part of their sentence? Also, in the case of violent rapists I have no problem with a zero tolerance, harsh policy. Registration? No, sterilization.

[Evergreen Emerald]

21. I prosecute sex offenses

In my state the severity of the sentence depends on the nature of the offense, the age of the victim, and the criminal history. We have a two-strikes-law for sex offenders. A second strike, puts them in prison for life. Only certain offenses count towards the second strike, and it has to occur after he is done with his prison/probation for the first one.

We also have a law in which certain sex offenders are sentenced to range minimum - maximum. They must show that they have made improvement such that they are no longer a threat to the community (counseling / treatment /etc) before they get out and could be held up to the maximum of the sentence (which can be life in some cases). If they get out they are on probation for life.

Treatment is mandatory. We also have a sexually violent preditor law in which we can have the dangerous ones civilly committed indefinitaly

I think registration is a great idea. And, of course one can in many cases petition the court to stop registration...so the 18 year old who diddled the 14 year-old can get the registraton recinded. In our state there must be 48 months difference in age between the perp and the victim if the victim is 14 or 15 years of age. 16--she can consent. So, I wonder about those horror stories you hear regarding the 17 year old and the 15/16 year old. I think there is more to the story than you are hearing--like she was lots younger than 15!

Your point is well taken that if they are required to register the system of rehabilitation and paying the debt to society is not working. I think the system has evolved because sex offenders are different than thiefs or bank robbers. The system of rehabilitaion doesn't always work with sex offenders. And, our children suffer if we refuse to deal with the reality of sex offenders.

So, should it favor the sex offenders or should it favor the children?

[Walt Starr]

16. Let me put it this way, if a politician said he'd get rid of them

I'd vote for the opposition. PArty labels wouldn't mean dick to me on this issue and it WOULD be my SINGLE issue to vote on!

That's how strongly in favor of them I am.

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

17. Drunk drivers are a bigger threat to kids

But you won't see republicans wanting them registered since they're all DUIs themselves.

[tinanator]

18. and most likely

also child molestors (see unauthorized bio GHWB)

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

20. I've read about poppy and the kids

Conspiracy authors like david icke make incredible accusations against poppy in his books. Lot of people think that most of the world's leaders are involved in child abuse.

[tinanator]

26. who needs Icke? Theres plenty of hard facts and WaPo articles on it

dont make it look unlikely when it is most likely exactly what that little girl said it was.

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

32. The WP has talked about this????

That bush41 is a child molestor?? I'm gonna have to do some research. Never thought the mainstream media would touch this story no matter how strong the evidence.

[tinanator]

35. where do you think the story broke?

you need to check the cited sources in the unauthorized biography of George Bush. Loads of articles from the day, and the whole story is best explained in that chapter anyway. My personal favorite.

[tinanator]

42. dammit my mistake! Check this out! The Washington Times!

On the morning of June 29, 1989, pandemonium erupted in the corridors of power in the nation's capital. ``Homosexual Prostitution Probe Ensnares Official of Bush, Reagan,'' screamed the front-page headline of the Washington Times with the kicker ``Call Boys Took Midnight Tour of White House.''

The Times reported, ``A homosexual prostitution ring is under investigation by federal and District authorities and includes among its clients key officials of the Reagan and Bush administrations, military officers, congressional aides and U.S. and foreign businessmen with close ties to Washington's political elite.''

The exposeé centered on the role of one Craig Spence, a Republican powerbroker known for his lavish ``power cocktail'' parties. Spence was well connected. He celebrated Independence Day 1988 by conducting a midnight tour of the White House in the company of two teenage male prostitutes among others in his party.

Rumors circulated that a list existed of some 200 Washington prominents who had used the call boy service. The Number Two in charge of personnel affairs at the White House, who was responsible for filling all the top civil service posts in the federal bureaucracy, and Secretary of Labor Elizabeth Dole's chief of staff, were two individuals publicly identified as patrons of the call boy ring.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush21.htm

[smirkymonkey]

96. What is that about?

World leaders/Child pornography abuse? Is it all about power?

I hear bits and pieces about it, but can't get my mind around why they do it and how they get away with it. It's just sick beyond belief.

[Ms. Toad]

22. Lousy idea

Speaking as a rape survivor and as a peer counselor for other survivors 10 years.

Yes, there are is a very high rate of repeat offenders. Most of them have never been caught. It has been too long since I looked at the statistics, but by the time a pedophile as been caught the victims number somewhere around 100. There are repeat rapists if adults, but they rape far fewer individuals and they are much more likely to be caught early on.

When we start pointing our fingers at the labeled guy, the hidden message is that everyone else is ok. We get less diligent about teaching our children about how to protect themselves because it creates a false sense of security - which is dangerous.

Aside from that, it makes it virtually impossible for a rapist to ever move past that behavior. He is labeled forever, with no way to move beyond being a currently dangerous rapist - where is the motivation to change?

[tinanator]

27. thank you

very much what I am trying to say, only whos gonna listen to me?

[philosophie_en_rose]

76. People deserve to make informed choices.

Sex offender registries are not complete lists. If it's true that 'pointing the finger' makes people complacent, then it's not a good excuse to not have a list. It means we need more than the list.

Rapists have a choice about their actions and the list is a consequence of violating a survivor's rights. No one says that they can't have a good life or a good job, only that people deserve to make informed choices.

[sangh0]

28. A surprising fact that you probably don't know

is that some of those who are required to register as a sex offender committed actions that had little or nothing to do with actual sex, such as kidnapping a child.

[progressivebydesign]

29. It's a viable way to protect yourself and your children..

considering most sexual offenders re-offend.

[tinanator]

30. its an illusion

If you think that will protect you against an unknown predator in a school or church setting, youre totally unprotected.

[porphyrian]

31. Mixed.

If our justice system were fair and accurate, I would be strongly behind publically-accessible sex offender registries. After all, we deserve to know if our family is in preventable danger. However, with the number of people who are wrongly convicted in our current system, which is obviously classist, I fear that innocent people may be permanently branded sex offenders with these registries.

[BiggJawn]

34. They don't go far enough.

They don't require the offender to be branded with big "M" for molester on each cheek.

<sarcasm>

[shraby]

36. Recently it was published that police

don't know where most of the registered sex offenders are. They just kinda drop off the radar screen after a period of time.

[BiggJawn]

41. So are they ALL "Ticking time bombs"?

Hmmm...the "Law and Order" RetHUGlicans would have us believe that they can tell us what time of day they crap and how much Charmin they use when they do.

Bet they pop back up on the scope when and if they re-offend, don't they?

[Occulus]

37. I oppose

on the grounds that it is FAR FAR FAR too easy to get someone convicted of such an offense. It's *almost* as easy as calling a phone number. ALL it takes are two willing parties, one being a "child".

I say "child" because if a twelve year old hate his stepdad, for example, it's OH so easy for him to ruin his stepdad's life. Same goes for a stepmom, but it doesn't stop there. Any teen can get their parents wrongfully convicted; it doesn't take much.

I live with a man- let's call him Bob- who was wrongfully convicted. In truth, he pled guilty; his lawyer told him he'd spend up to 30 years in Jackson State if convicted. In truth, he would likely have been murdered within a month. Child sex offender aren't looked highly upon in that prison.

Don't let his guilty plea fool you. The prosecutor told him he'd be able to see his (natural) daughter if he pled guilty. He didn't know about and wasn't told about this state's sex offender registry, but that's beside the point.

He was framed. How do I know? I read the initial deposition. The "victim" climbed up on the couch Bob was sleeping on, and Bob's hand moved over the kid's crotch to make room. Both were fully clothed.

THAT was the "sex offense". As a result, Bob got three years probation, and had to pay over $3000 in restitution. Due to the felony status this brands him with, he can't get a job. Even when a job ignores a felony conviction, his was a sex offense, so he STILL can't get a job.

Ever. Period. At all. Without exception. He tried, for two years. HUNDREDS of job applications. "We'll be in touch."

Never heard a word.

Bob was actually told by the lieutenant governor of our state that he would have to commit a crime to get job training, mostly because he was a sex offender. As a sex offender, his address (AND mine, and I have NOT NOT NOT been convicted of a crime) are on the internet, as is his photo. He pays for that "privilege".

He can't even get it expunged- because, as a sex offense, his conviction is not eligible for expungement.

For the next twenty-one years, he will give up some of his freedom so your kids- so far out of reach- can be "safe". This, AFTER he "did his time".

How is that just?

[Evergreen Emerald]

54. Something is fishy.

I am sorry, but I don't buy it. It has been by experience that police and prosecutors do not want to convict innocent people. They are extremely zealous in gaining all the facts before taking a case to court. It is lots easier to spot someone who has been coached or who is lying than you may think.

With the facts you relate, there is not sufficient evidence of a crime. The touching has to be for sexual gratification. Inadvertant touching does not count.

[MadHound]

68. Your faith in the law enforcement community is touching

Misplaced, but touching nonetheless. There are literally millions of cases in our history where police and prosecutors not only wanted, but have convicted innocent people, on crimes ranging from minor to capital, with the death penalty involved. Police are biased and bigoted, prosecutors rise through the ranks with convictions, it is a set up primed for misuse. Look at the number of innocent African Americans arrested and prosecuted nationwide on little or no evidence. Look at the number of death sentences that have been overturned. Look at the manufactured arrests made not only during the protests of the sixties, but for the past forty years, up to and including those made at this year's Republican convention.

Sorry friend, but you assertions fly straight into the face of reality.

[Occulus]

79. It was Judge Potts

in Oakland Cty, MI. I think. Her name's on the deposition. It was an election. Oakland County is riiiiiich, and this was right before an election.

His ex-wife's lawyer was her father. She/they managed to get the divorce hearing timed somehow so that Bob was sitting in jail on the sex crime count when the divorce hearing went through. THAT judge awarded "all possessions currently held by either party" to remain with that party, or some such. I'd have to look at the divorce order.

She got EVERYTHING, he got the clothes on his back. Even things that were demonstrably his- a comic book collection valued at several thousand dollars, a knife collection containing several katanas and swords, ALL the credit cards, the house, the car, AND their daughter... all went to her.

I've actually read the court documents to verify this. It happened in exactly the way I'm telling. ALL they had was the testimony of the "victim". No physical evidence, and both parties were fully clothed the entire time.

You should know that one of the criteria for a sex crime in the state of Michigan consists of "touching a minor child between the knee and the groin." That's straight from the State regulations/laws regarding sex crimes- or was at the time of his conviction. That's the part that got Bob to plead guilty.

Oh, the "victim" testified in the deposition that Bob was asleep when it happened. The "victim" also testified that Bob's hand was still after the back of Bob's hand touched the kid's groin. IOW- a movement made during sleep. Grounds for dismissal? Of course, but it was an election year and that conviction made Judge Potts look that much better on paper to the voters.

You may also want to read up on the "point system" related to convictions, judges, lawyers, and public defenders in Oakland County. Verrrrrrry interesting reading.

(aside: it would appear that information has been scrubbed from the Oakland County website. Judges and lawyers were awarded "points" based on number and types of convictions; public defenders had a system whereby it was in their own financial best interest to see their clients get a conviction. You read that right. The page seems to be gone. Whodathunkit?)

Basically, the prosecutor and his own lawyer scared him into pleading guilty for a crime that never happened. There wasn't ANY evidence. He got the shaft anyway.

Let me reiterate: accusing someone of a sex crime and turning their life into hell is as easy as making a phone call. ALL you need is an accusation to ruin someone's life, and if you have a willing second party to back you up, you can get them convicted fairly easily. Actual evidence is not necessary to convict someone of a sex crime. Bob is proof of this.

If you don't believe me, give me your phone number. I can have DCFS knocking on your door by the end of the week. Yes, it's sick. Yes, it's wrong. But that's the way it is.

Bob's accuser? He's now in juvenile detention on drug charges, I think. This was a kid who had threatened Bob's life. Bob then threatened to send the kid off to a military academy (trust me, this boy needed it). That's when the sex crime accusation surfaced. Friends of his have told him she was going around saying how she knew he never did anything, but he's gone and she got it all, so she's happy.

This one was about greed, pure and simple. Apparently, Bob's stepson's natural father had the same thing done to him by this woman. Talk about a black widow- this is almost like murder without death, or something. Bob's life is totally ruied, of course- he won't be hired for any job (fast food even turns him down because of the CSC 2nd degree conviction) and everything he knew how to do before the conviction he is now prohibited by law from doing.

But she got what she wanted out of it, so it's ok.

NOT!!!!!

[Occulus]

82. They do when it's an election year

ESPECIALLY in Oakland County. There, they presume you guilty of a sex crime, and you must prove your innocence.

[AngryAmish]

89. You must be kidding

You cannot imagine the pressure on prosecutors to win cases. Imagine running for office and you opponent says "She lets accused child molesters go without a trial." Then you lose the election.

Police lie on the stand all the time. For those who do not understand, let me repeat: Police lie on the stand all the time. Usually in good faith, ie they believe the guy is guilty of something. But they lie.

[philosophie_en_rose]

75. Criminal charges are hell for victims.

First of all, how would really know what happened? Obviously, there must have been more evidence than that for prosecution to take the charges seriously.

[Occulus]

81. There wasn't.

The court records clearly indicate that the ONLY grounds for this were "improper touching". The "victim" even testified that Bob's hand wasn't moving, but was still. The "victim" also testified that it was the BACK of Bob's hand.

Bob has the papers around here somewhere. I could dig them out, but I don't need to; we spent weeks together looking for some way to get this overturned or expunged. Unfortunately, by the time I found out just how flimsy this all was, it was past the date to challenge it.

Oh, yes: Bob pled guilty. Pled guilty to nothing, really, but entered the plea just the same. He was scared; his lawyer told him he'd lose his daughter and spend thirty years in Jackson State, which meant he'd live for about three weeks. They told him if he pled guilty, he'd be able to see his daughter. Hid lawyer did NOT tell him about the registry.

There's nothing at all Bob can do now; MI has a statute of limitations on claims of incompetant counsel and besides, no lawyer here will sue another lawyer. We've asked, and asked, and asked.

Bob's productive life is OVER.

[FlaGranny]

45. Couldn't you come with with an easier question?

Gee whiz. I would certainly want to know if a child molester lived near my grandkids. On the other hand, I think it is barbaric for people to know who they are and "shun" them. I have no real answer to the question.

[Nordic]

48. I was told I could be arrested as a "sex offender" for peeing in the trees

in a huge park along the river in Nashville. I was working there and thought hell, if I had to go pee, I could do it back in the forest. I was told that the cops were on a lookout for that, and could arrest you and that you'd be charged as a "sex offender" for "public indency" and, well, if that's the case, then I'm against it.

As far as child molesters, well, I'm all for it.

[JasonNeedlemeyer]

49. Well as a gay man

who is constantly put in the same catogory as the sickos who molest kids by the pugs.Even though I was the victim of molestation by someone in the church my parents forced me to go to. I think that the public should be aware of those who will do horrible things to children.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. I am against this all together

There are two reasons I am against this. Reason 1: It is applied UNfairly to gay and lesbian people. Although sodomy laws were struck down, there are several states that will brand a CONSENTING gay adult as a "sexual offender." Reason 2: Where does it stop? Why not "brand" thieves? Aren't you concerned that your neighbor may steal your stuff? What about DUI's? More people will die in an auto accident with a drunkard than will be molested. Will this lead to public disclosure of those with AIDS? You know, protect the public. Where does it stop?

Child abuse is an horrible thing. Children need to be taught to respond by telling someone they trust. Children need to be taught caution, not fear. WE, as Americans, seem to live our lives always afraid of what's around the corner, how is this healthy? Instead of spending that money on making people register and follow-up and prosecute when they fail to register, why not spend that money on education programs for children and FREE counseling for those abused?

[Djinn]

95. A good start is to NOT teach your kids to "respect" adults

I see so many kids who have been taught that adukts are always right, that you must never "talk back" to an adult (particularly an authority figure, parents, teachers, cops, religious leaders etc)

You need to teach your kids that if ANYONE makes them feel uncomfortable then they should scream their heads off, don't force them to kiss uncle john goodbye if they don't want to, don't make them sit on someones knee if they don't want to. Let them know that if ANYONE including mummy and daddy EVER hurt them they should tell someone.

[Behind the Aegis]

100. Excellent point!

When I was a child, my parents NEVER made us hug or kiss anyone if we did not feel like it. We were also not made to feel guilty if we chose not to kiss/hug someone. I see see people say," shake Mr. Jeff's hand." I put my hand out, but if they don't want to, no biggie. If the parent says, "that is not nice, you will hurt his feelings." I always say, "My feelings aren't hurt! IF you want to shake my hand later, that is cool with me! But you don't have to!"

We were taught to be respectful, unless we felt scared, for what ever reason. We also had a 'code word' that we only knew. If my mom or dad sent someone to get us, they were told the 'code word.' If the person didn't know the word, we didn't get in the car with them and just walked to the nearest adult we trusted. My brother and I were young boys in Atlanta during the child murders and although we are white, we were all scared.

Children have good instincts (much of the time), they should be allowed to follow them if they feel scared and follow-up later.

[Barney Rocks]

51. I just found out that

I have a sex offender living in my apartment complex! And it is a woman! Hee hee. should I be afraid?

[Andromeda]

53. Personally, I think sex offenders should be...

castrated, but that's just me. They do use chemical castration and that seems to work but in some cases it doesn't. They also use tracking devices but I don't know how long they are required to use them.

In California, all sex offenders have to register. The public should be notified if a sex offender lives in their neighborhood and I don't know if that's done everywhere. Even if it infringes on the offender's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness the safety of the public outweighs the offender's right to privacy.

The recidivism rate is almost 100% in these kinds of crimes and the public at large hasn't had much luck in integrating these criminals into society because they almost always fall back into their old ways.

[Djinn]

97. castration may work as a punishment

but it's absolutely useless as a deterent - chemical castration stops you getting a hard on, it doesn't stop anything else

[sherilocks]

58. You cannot cure pedophilia

You can, through aversion therapies, teach pedophiles to control their impulses, if they are highly motivated.

If the first sexual experience is with a pedophile, the result is often, but not always, the creation of another pedophile. If one pedophile molests 100 children, how many more pedophiles does he or she create? One is too many.

Castration does not cure the sexual desire for children.

There are different type of rapists, and some rape for power, some out of rage. But to the person being raped, it doesn't matter why they rape. It has a brutal life-long effect on the victim.

I believe that sex offenders who rape children or violent rapists should be kept on a public registry. Since lesser charges such as peeping toms, flashing, masturbating in public often are committed by sexual offenders in their early development to more serious sex crimes, they should be kept on a watch list available to law enforcement, but not made public.

[sbj405]

61. I think for violent sexual offenders

it's ok. My concerns are, like the other poster said, a 19 y/o having sex w/ a 16 y/o. The list, at least in my state, lists the court code as to the offense. So it's a little difficult to tell the difference. My other concern is that I don't really think the list are effective because there are no resources to follow up. As I understand it, it's up to the individual to register when he/she moved.

Incidentally, I received an automated phone call one day letting me know that there was one living within 1 mile of me. I checked the list and the person was residing across the street from the elementary school.

[rooboy]

62. Yes, but with some qualifications...

because there is such a high rate of repeat offending and the profound damage it does, I believe there is no choice but to have a register. However, if anyone harms or persecutes a child molester who has served their time, then they should get 10 years in jail (minimum) for vigilantism.

As soon as a reliable, safe way of preventing this behaviour can be found, then I would do away with the registers altogether.

[Rockholm]

63. Isn't that jaust another name for FREEREPUBLIC.ccom

[noonwitch]

64. I think it's good, for the most part, especially around Halloween

Parents can know where they are and make sure their children avoid any kind of contact with them.

I do think that the registries have been abused-consensual sex between a 19 year old boy and a 16 year old girl should not result in the boy being put on the list. Prostitutes should not be listed on it. It should be reserved for those who have committed sexual assualts or who have sexually abused a child or dependent.

Mary Kay LeTourno should definitely be on it.

[DaveSZ]

65. I'm only against it in "age of consent" violation cases

, where there is consent by both parties and only age is a factor.

For those who rape or otherwise sexually assault anyone, I am not against forcing them to register as a sex offender.

[DaveSZ]

66. This is exactly what I'm talking about

This is simply wrong:


"Anywho, there was a DUer who's son was a "registered sex offender." Can't remember the details but he was 19 or so and his lover was 16 or 17, just a couple months from that particular states legal limit. Her parents decided to press charges for statuatory rape. Now he's a convicted sex offender, will never have a decent job, and every few month they bring him in for testing and show him pictures of child pornography to make sure he doesn't get aroused. Seems pretty draconian to me. How castration would improve that I have no idea."

[Southpaw Bookworm]

67. They miss a big point

Most often those molesting children are a family member or close friend of the family. Sex offender registries give a false sense of security, and I think parents might be more likely to miss the signs of abuse in their children.

[MadHound]

69. In a perfect world, with perfect justice, I would be in favor of it

However we all know that our justice system is far from perfect. One only has to look at the number of prisoners released from death row in order to see that(never mind the much larger number released for being falsely convicted of lesser crimes).

In addition, this could be used to punish people who are labeled as sex offenders for such offenses as peeing in public, or being an eighteen year old having consensual sex with a sixteen year old. I can easily envision how such registeries can be used against gays and lesbians(since there are still some states that have laws against sodomy, etc.)

Also, I can see such registeries becoming a slippery slope, much like the drug forfiture laws have. Twenty years ago laws started being enacted that enabled the state to(unconstitutionally IMO) seize the property of people convicted of drug crimes, even minor possession cases. Now we are starting to see the creep of forfiture into other area besides drugs crimes. I can easily see us sliding down that slope vis-a-vis registeries so that in time, thieves, dope smokers, and those convicted of bad checks would be put on a registery. Once there is precedence in this country, it is awfully hard to reverse.

So yes, in theory, I support registeries. But in the real world application, no, it is opening up a can of worm s we shouldn't go into.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. this is the one issue in where i REALLY REALLY side with the potential

victims.

sorry but every crime is defensible under some context (murder if its self defense) but rape/molestation are without excuse and these people should suffer for the rest of their lives.

[Occulus]

83. Even if they have been railroaded into their conviction?

Read my above posts. These crimes are WAAAAAY too easy to get someone convicted of. Evidence appears to be optional- completely. Disagree? Let me get your name and number, call DCFS, and they'll get back to you.

They would likely put you under supervision based upon the accusation alone. You could easily lose you kids if you even so much as pick them up "wrong" in the presence of a DCFS official. In MI, touching a kid between the knee and the groin- no, it doesn't specify where- is a potential sex crime.

These statutes go WAY too far, IMO. Actual physical evidence should be required, but self-consistent testimony is all that's needed.

[skygazer]

73. They bother me

The purpose of the penal system is supposed to be for a person to pay their debt to society. If the debt is paid, they are supposed to be able to restart their life.

If they're forced to register as a pariah, they do not have that opportunity. If they are not fit to be in society, why are they released?

The truth of the matter is, you probably have sex offenders or people who are likely to commit sex crimes in your neighborhood already. You just dont' know it because they haven't done it yet.

I'm not saying I have a solution but the idea of registry bothers me on many levels. Here in my area we have seen a couple of guys hounded out of one town after another - it is like a witch hunt. I don't have sympathy for their crimes but they've been released. There has to be a better way.

[Aiptasia]

74. both

I think it's both a scarlett letter and a way to keep a discriminatory eye on your community.

Some perverts should be kept on a short leash, and others perhaps are being harmed by this system of registry. For example, if you were an 18 year old male and dating a girl that was 17 (technically underage), and you got her pregnant, her parents could bring statuatory rape charges against you. You're convicted, you do two years of time and are released on probation. Maybe you still love her and you get married at that point, but since there was a conviction when she was 17, you have to register as a sex offender.

This scenario (and others like it) have happened before, and I think it's an un-necessary stigma to bare in situations like this.

But... if you're a pervy that can't keep his hands off of kids or a habitual rapist or something, then I believe the community has the right to know if they and their families are at risk.

[Susang]

78. I'm torn on the issue

I don't think all offenses deserve that stigma, however, pedophiles and certain other offenders are highly likely to repeat offend. Perhaps it should be decided at parole on a case by case basis? I really don't have the answer.

[H2O Man]

84. Two thoughts:

There was an 18 year old male in an upstate NY county near me, who was charged with having had a sexual encounter with a female aged 15.
Their difference in age was just over 25 months, or two years and a month. It was his first such offense. He was black, she was white. She admitted she had initiated the encounter. He got a life sentence. He served over a year and a half in state prison, before the sentence was over-turned in the NYS Court of Appeals. (I had asked Myron Beldock, Rubin Carter's attorney, for assistance, as it was such a racst decision.) Though he is out of prison, this young man is a sex offender.

I worked in human services for decades. I had the pleasure of working with some of the most open-minded people, educated in the state-of-the-art methods for dealing with the true sexual predators. And they all were very clear that while some treatments may reduce rates of recidivism, there are no "cures." The true sex offenders will always be at risk of re-offending against defenseless victims.

The issue should be having the system be able to separate the people who have errors in thinking, judgement, and behavior, versus those who are clear in their thinking, anti-social in their judgements, and vicious in their behaviors.

[sadiesworld]

87. Judge's discretion with the first offense...

mandatory on the second.

[George_S]

92. California Dems cave

Legislative Republicans kept pushing for more sex-offender information to be made public. It appears likely that Republicans will continue that push next year, as Schwarzenegger urged. Even as the Legislature approved the Parra bill, some GOP lawmakers tried to make it even more sweeping.

Parra wrote the bill, and Democrats wanted to give her a good re-election campaign issue. To that end, Assembly Speaker Fabian Núñez, D-Los Angeles, personally intervened, swaying some wavering members by invoking his fatherly concerns for the safety of his three children.

And influential Senate President Pro Tem John Burton, whose fears about possible vigilantism had helped block previous Megan's Law expansions, instructed his staff to work with Parra on her bill. The resulting measure tries to balance a community's right to know with fears about demonizing people who have served their time and are trying to rebuild their lives.

A struggle for some

Burton, a San Francisco Democrat, said he and some others struggled with the thorny issue. He sat out the Senate's final vote on the bill.

"The theory of it is kind of tough, when people get out of prisons and neighborhoods get, you know, not quite cross-burning," he said. "I'm truly torn. But, I mean, it's pretty tough to argue with a parent who might want to know who is living next door to their kids."

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/education/TeachingwithCurrentEvents/ConstitutionNewswire/12539.shtml

[NashVegas]

99. This Is Tough

When you think back to life before cities became huge and people didn't know their neighbors, that was a time when everyone knew everyone's shit. So in that regard, it's not that big a deal. The shunned life was the punishment.

OTOH, I hate the idea that these lists might lull some parents into thinking they won't need to have "the talk" with their kids.