Let's face facts. It's not kerry's fault. This is how America is.

[Robin Hood]

The fault lies at the feet of the American electorate, We have to face the fact that this country has taken a hard right since 1980, and the only reason that the conservative Democrat Bill Clinton ever won was because of Perot(A spoiler on the repub side).

It does not matter who we run or what we say. It does not matter how many innocents die because of a lie. It does not matter how bad the economy gets or anything else. This country made a turn for the far right long ago.

It is time for us to either concede these truths and live in a brown shirt society with our lips zipped and our eyes glazed, or move the hell out. If not Canada or Europe, at least move to a state where more like minded people exist, but that really isn't good enough.

I am done fighting against the night. because despite all imperical evidence that should have brought Bush down, here we are with four more years. This time, Four more years with a mandate, four more years of controlling both houses. And who could forget a lifetime of right wing wacko supreme court judges that were appointed by George Bush. can't you just wait to see Clarence Thomas at the head of the bench?

The dream is over folks, And i'm afraid that it has been for some time. America the beautifull has become America the stupid full. Fillled with seas of people that constantly vote against their interest. What's really sad is that it appears that this experiment in Democracy called America is just as prone to dictatorship rule as any third world country in the world.

Maybe we are not so great, maybe the dream/illusion never existed, after all, it was all a dream, a beautifull dream, but a dream none the less.

sigh...

[OrwellwasRight]

1. Word. n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

2. I agree, and will not blame the victims -- Senator Kerry, our party...

or ourselves.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

3. kick

The "dream" is a MYTH.

[Emboldened Chimp]

4. Since 1980? Try 1606.

That's when we first settled this nation at Jamestown. A flood of religious crazies continued to cross the Atlantic and settle the New World, wherein they eradicated a native population and enslaved an entire race from another. This country has been steeped in blood, racial bigotry, and religious insanity since its inception. Will it ever change?

[info being]

5. I couldn't agree more.

It's good to finally know exactly who the enemy is. Sure, corporations are evil, sure our educational system sucks. But the primary enemy is ignorant, bigoted American. I'm tired of trying to stick up for them. I kind of hope Bush sticks it to them.

[Dzimbowicz]

6. I agree

sadly, I think the country I once knew is gone.

[Robbie67]

7. Kerry was not a great candidate

I appreciate that people need to find a more systemic and cultural explanation for things, but let's not forget that Kerry did not inspire many people and that he was running against someone with a terrible record that was getting worse and worse, and he still could not rally enough people together for a simple majority of the overall vote. Kerry's nomination to be the candidate sprang from a tired old notion that the answer to electoral woes is to act more like conservatives because that's where the vote is. I think that's a horrible mistake and I think Kerry was quite comfortable to reside in that niche. He figured (or was told) that he just had to be steadfast and conform to a right-driven notion of leadership and he'd sail to an ABB driven win.

[Robin Hood]

9. It doesn't matter who we run.

Like I said. Clinton won because of Perot. If Perot hadn't been there, Bush Sr. would have won in 92 and 96.

[Robbie67]

16. and that's the problem, isn't it?

If the party continually puts up candidates and policies that won't win...I don't know....maybe it's time to change the party?

[Robin Hood]

18. I don't think that it matters who we run.

I think that the American electorate identifies themselves with the Republican party. I think that it's over. The supreme court appointments will be the nails in the coffin of what was once the new deal.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. I Thought This Forum Was For HELP & Support

You can be chicken little if you want, but when the vote is 51:49, i would suggest your whole thesis is flawed.
The Professor

[tjwash]

35. Not exactly...

...Bush Sr. was running for his second term in 92, he could not have run in 96. However, there were a lot of freeper nitwits talking about running Dan Quayle in 96, and if Bush the first had won in 92, it would not have been so far fetched.

[OrwellwasRight]

15. We can't out-conservative the conservatives

I'm tired of everyone saying that the answer is to buy guns and become religious (See Nicholas Kristof's NYTimes Op-Ed: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/03/opinion/03kris.html?th).

If we do that, they win on so many levels:
1) They completely control the dicourse and the public choices presented.
2) It is impossible to compete with a Republican by dehaving as a pseudo-Republican.
3) What would we be fighting for anyway?

We must take back the word liberal, be proud of it, and instead fo palying the 5th Avenue Corporate Media brand of politics, actually engage in public discourse and education to show people why our views and our solutions are better.

Anyway, well said. The advice that Kerry should act more conservative was bad advice.

[goclark]

24. He was a great candidate here Sunday

We loved all his rallies! His family, his message, his debates, his tough stance, his poll numbers at the end, his comeback, his openness, his honestty, his war record, his intelligence, his basic goodness.

How can we dare trash him like this, you all sound like Rush Limbaugh!

[serryjw]

40. Robbie.............we need to face facts

JK was not my first choice, BUT he had 3 great debates and came out slugging since then. NO ONE could win against Bushit if 79% of Americans voted AGAINST their interests and only cared about moral issues. F*CK jobs, healthcare,Iraq or education BUT Gay marriage and ROE was the only important issue. They love the reborn 'sinner'

They voted for the father,son and holy ghost Nobody could have beat that!The problem is the country not our candidate

[Mr_Spock]

8. Yes, how does one beat ignorance?

If they are ignorant and won't listen, only a really bad experience will wake them up.

[info being]

10. Stop bailing them out.

The Dems have always been there to stand up for these people and bail them out. Forget it. Let them have a draft, let them lose social security, let them lose jobs.

In short, let them learn for themselves. The responsibility has been lifted off our backs. They talk of personal responsibility, give them what they think they way.

[Cobalt Violet]

13. I agree.

That will be very painful but they have all the power now and they may some day be held responsible. If not by this generation of people, may be the next.

[Patiod]

11. But they do listen

To Faux, MS-GOP, Rush, Hannity, Scarborough, etc.

[Robin Hood]

14. That's no excuse.

I've heard and watched all the right wing noise machine. it doesn't mean that I buy any of that bullshit. Furthermore, The right wing noise machine would not exist if there were no appetite for it.

[Mr_Spock]

33. I don't think that is listening.

More like a zombified trance

[cmf]

12. I agree somewhat, but the question is

Why have we taken a hard turn to the right? And what can we do about it?

The Republicans control the discussion, they frame the debate. They have many more think tanks than we do, and they control the media. People vote Republican against their own self interests because they are being told to. This didn't happen overnight. It's been in the works for many years. We should have woken up after 1994, but we didn't. We've counted on people to come to their senses, but this won't happen. We have to go on the offensive to gain control of these things. This is war.

[fshrink]

17. The scariest part is

that the stupid part of society, which is around a third, at worst, anywhere else in the world is over 50% here. Which would take about half a generation to change. So, yeah... this is not only 4 years, it's probably more like 16, at least. In the mean time, anything properly packaged by the owned media can be sold to this country. Anything.

[noiretextatique]

19. nah...it's just ANOTHER STOLEN ELECTION

mark my words. * is not the people's choice.

[goclark]

25. It ain't Kerry's fault that they stole this election

It is our fault that WE let them do it!

[noiretextatique]

28. no, not kerry's fault...and not our fault

it's THEIR FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's time to hold them accountable!

[Nicky Scarfo]

20. You were right to bring this up, we need to face reality, but you forgot

about a vital second part-- how can we change it? The state we're in now didn't just happen by accident. It took years and years of organizing work (of the non-glamorous kind) for the reactionaries to get this kind of organizational and cultural strength. We could do the same, but it will be a long, hard road.

[Robin Hood]

21. Yes, but..

Bush's record of incompetence, negligence and criminal activity should have been more than enough to get him kicked out of office. Instead, The American electorate gave Bush a mandate.

[calico1]

22. I disagree.

I do not believe the country has taken a hard turn to the right. Maybe it appears so depending on where you live. Almost everyone I know who voted for Bush is a Moderate, not a fundy. They vote because they believe in the traditional view of Republicans on taxes, and are under the impression that Democrats tax and spend and Republicans don't. Many carry on the beliefs passed down from parents.

I think there are a number of things that contributed to this defeat.

The media for one is whorish and is not a serious, dedicated media like we had in the 60's and 70's. They are more concerned with being stars that with doing their job which is to keep us informed in an unbiased way. Deregulation was a disaster and allowed for huge corporations to buy TV and radio stations. Most of the media now tempers whatever it reports based on what the heads of the corporations that own them believe. The media today also get paid more so unlike the peons of the past who's main reward was telling the truth, todays media whores report based on ratings, in addition to spinning it the way the corporate owners want the news spinned. A lot of stories we never even hear about. That we know from sites like this one.

People today, so many of them continue to be disengaged from politics and world events. Even though we have more access with cable, internet and the like we seem to be much less informed than previous generations. A lot of Americans don't like to think and research a lot. Why should they when you have Rush and the Fox network feeding them "news." Its the #1 "news" station in the country last I heard. They are so complacent. If it doesn't affect them personally, they don't care.

The Christian right are less in number than we are but they are very well organized. How many Democrats or people who believe in Democratic ideals don't we all know that like to bitch, moan and complain, but then don't bother voting? I think we all know people like that.

There are a lot of other things going on but the main thing is the majority of Americans are not hard right Christian wingnuts. Not by a long shot. But they have not reached the point yet where everything that is going on has gotten personal to them. WE are different because we can see it coming. They don't. Until they start losing jobs, homes and their children get drafted they won't take it personally and won't care. This is a very selfish society we live in.

[DemMother]

23. I'm not convinced that we've been what we like to think we are

too many times in history. I think it's a pretty story we like to tell ourselves (courtesy of Lynne Cheney's editing). Slavery, bigotry, religious fanaticism, anti-intellectualism, greed, and arrogance have long been a part of the fabric of the United States--just as much as the progressive, positive things that we like to tout (which, have never, never come about because of the right-wing extremists, but in spite of or in opposition to them). We were founded by religious fanatics...and I don't know how much we've progressed.

[drdigi420]

26. we have to attack religion and expose it as false

that is our only hope

[Sterling]

30. It's really sad isn't it.

That is a root problem. I really get a lot of inspiration from religious myths but when they are used as a political tool the stop being sacred and should face the challenge of the scrutiny of the reality based world.

It is fine to live in a faith based world but one must recongnize they should nver try to project that reality on the whole of humanity.

That is when faith becomes dangerous.

[Robin Hood]

31. That won't do it.

With all the atrocities that have happened under bush since 2000, and that still wasn't enough to kick him out. In fact, it gave him a mandate, go figure.

[flygal]

29. I think there are a lot of repugs who voted for * reluctantly..

All I heard from repugs was - well Kerry flip flops. They turned to Perot in 92. We need to get them on our side! NoW!

[rniel]

32. Maybe time to shut off our brains

and just become selfish slobs and not care about anyone.

It worked for them.

[Yavin4]

34. We're Out-Numbered

This is not Kerry's nor the Democrats' fault. We simply do not have a candidate that can appeal to these religious zealots, and frankly, I'd rather lose than to sell out women's reproductive rights and Gays. We can't become them and then hope to beat them. It just won't work.

[Sugarbleus]

36. Hello again LG...

I post here only to say, after listening to Kerry's concession speech, I feel better about him. I was angry with him for a moment. No longer...he did what he could, he was as honorable as anyone can be and I thank him for trying so hard.

I was soothed by his words telling us he would never forget nor ever stop working for us. That speech he gave brought tears TO HIS EYES.

The ONLY thing I WILL NOT DO is meld into the republican party. They can take that BS about bringing the country together..HA, what a scream, and shove it!

Mandate schmandate, I will NEVER honor this man who thieved his way into the government and then set out to control the entire world.
AND, as he slyly eyes Fallujah, Iran, N. Korea, Syria as his next target...........I will NOT send my family to fight his wars for this FALLEN country

Now I'm off to blast the media whores. Have as good a day as you can muster.
Best, SB

[Robin Hood]

38. Hey Sugarblues.

I'm glad that you feel better. I can not seem to bring my self to look on the bright side of this. The Supreme court will be stacked so far to the right that you can say good bye to your right to make choices, whatever they may be.

Say good bye to the new deal, say good bye to economic prosperity, Unions, workers rights. Hell, I bet that eventually child labor will be open to interpretation. Say good bye to everything that you and I have come to take for granted. It's over.

[tjwash]

37. Fuck those assholes, I'm not moving just because....

...one rich pampered Yale going preppie, who uses the word summer as a verb, got beat by a different rich pampered Yale going preppie, who uses the word summer as a verb. You think Kerry would have actually raised taxes on the upper five percent? In a pigs eye, he IS the upper five percent. He would have quietly approved shipping jobs offshore, kept the bases and troops in the middle east, and cut funding to social programs like welfare and SSI.

The reason Kerry lost, is the American people are mostly rural, and consumed by religious intolerance, flag waving jingoism, anti-environmentalism, hatred of gays, racism, and just flat out selfish. The B* campaign tapped into that, and rode it to the finish line. I held my nose, and voted for Kerry last night, not because I respect, or admire him, but because he was NOT the representative of all of that.

If there is a silver lining, it is that people may finally start to see, that voting for one of two differing appointed representatives of the ultra wealthy, so that they can decide how to divvy up our treasury amongst themselves, and leave us fighting for the scraps that fall off of their tables, is not the way to go. That there is no real representation here. If people start to see that, it may start to change.

[GreenArrow]

39. right on the nose

the American people vote for the candidate who most reminds them of themselves, the candidate whom they most identify with. They like Bush. He's one of them. Or so they think. He's just using them of course.

[Robin Hood]

41. The American people are for the most part stupid.

Yesterday proved that.

[GreenArrow]

42. And many of those who aren't stupid are ignorant

And those who are willfully ignorant are the stupidest of all.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

43. I agree. Kerry not perfect but an outstanding candidate.

The electorate is screwed. They chose this.

[d_b]

44. Ok. So let's all move away.

And let the right-wing nutcases run wild all over the planet with NO opposition here at home. Imagine if there was no left-wing in America.. Seriously. We'd make Hitler look like a pussy. For the world, Lets stay here and fight.



Besides, I'm hoping that four more years of these Bush doctrines will create another FDR like figure.

[Robin Hood]

45. In case you haven't noticed.

There is no opposition and there hasn't been any opposition since 2001. They hold all the cards, and now they hold even more of them.

[d_b]

46. I disagree,

but I feel you.

[goforit]

47. Yep........This country has a bunch of mean dumb ass people.

Humanity has passed the neandrethal!!!