Question on "Bring 'Em Home Now"

[Caution]

Do we as Americans now have a moral obligation to finish rebuilding Iraq (but by doing it the right way)? We have gone in, destroyed their infrastructure, eliminated their government, destroyed the security apparatus (the local security, police forces and whatnot). We have taken away the ability of this country to function. If we leave now do we cause a massive humanitarian crisis?

As much as I hate it, I think that we as progressives now need to face the fact that we have a moral obligation to the people of Iraq to repair the damage we caused.

To that end I think we need to immediately turn over ALL administrative functions to the UN, leave troops in place (though rotate them, the troops there now deserve to go home), basically I think that we need to abandon all authority over the country, military, political and economic and hand it over to the United Nations. It's the only solution to the freakin disaster we have caused. Bringing the troops home immediately is not an option. We made this bed and unfortunately we are stuck with it unless we are willing to be the cause of horrendous suffering. The whole thing makes me sick.

[NNN0LHI]

1. WE don't have enough troops. Do you understand that?

We will have to begin drafting people. Would you go over there? Would you send your son over there? These are the questions you need to answer before making any rash decision.

Don

[bryant69]

2. DO you have figures on this?

ON how we will have to begin the draft again? If so how soon will that be necessary?

But the answer in my mind is, if it's the right thing to do, it's the right thing to do. Of course its terrible to be in this position (and another reason to get President Bush back in texas permenantly); but we are where we are.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NNN0LHI]

8. Pentagon May Have to Reduce U.S. Forces in Iraq -CBO

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030903/ts_nm/iraq_congress_forces_dc&cid=564&ncid=1480

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration may have to cut U.S. troops in Iraq by more than half to keep enough forces to face other threats, a congressional agency said on Tuesday in a report that fueled calls for more international help for peacekeeping in Iraq.

The Congressional Budget Office said under current policies, the Pentagon would be able to sustain an occupation force of 38,000 to 64,000 in Iraq long term, down from the existing 150,000 that a number of lawmakers said is not enough to confront the spiraling violence. snip

The report said the active Army, which is bearing the brunt of Iraq duty, will have to start reducing forces in Iraq in March next year if it keeps its plan to limit deployments without relief to a year.

Under existing policies, the CBO said, the Army could sustain a long-term occupation force there of 38,000 to 64,000 after the winter of 2004-2005.

more

[Caution]

3. I know...

The whole thing is a giant f'ing mess. I'm over 30 and outside of the draft but my brother is 24 and no I don't want to send anyone over there. The question is do we have a moral obligation to the people of Iraq to put that country back on its feet? Unfortunately, I think the answer is yes. This whole damn war was a farce to begin with and has proceeded exactly as I predicted it would go (though I thought it would take longer to capture Baghdad). I do no know the answers here, the only thing I am sure of is that this should be taken out of the hands of the U.S. and place in the hands of the U.N. with most of the personnel and money being contributed by the U.S. due to the fact that this whole f'ing mess is our fault.

[Maeve]

7. I tend to agree on several points

Moral obligation--yes. US out and UN in--yes. We have to pay more because we started it--yes.

And as for your sig line--good one, Caution's Mom!

[blondeatlast]

4. We DO have a moral obligation since we delared the war. BUT

we should let the UN supervise and certainly help ON THEIR TERMS.

Besides, we can't rebuild anything when our troops are still targets. bush needs to step aside at this point; not that that will happen.

[liberalnurse]

5. One of our democratic candidates

need to address this in detail. It can be a winning platform....The downfall is there is no pretty answer.

[IndianaGreen]

6. The only obligation we have is to bring the troops home NOW!

It's not our war! It's Bush's mess!

The only obligation we have is to bring the troops home NOW!

[Caution]

12. And leave 30 million people

without food? without water? electricity? a functioanl police force? We destroyed this country! We did it for the wrong reasons, yes. But I'm an American, I believe in what our country was founded upon. I believe that when push comes to shove we, as Americans will do the right thing. We may screw up in the first place (and let's face it, the majority supported this asinine war ). But in the end we generally do the right thing and here I believe it is impossible to simply say "screw it, get everybody out of Iraq now. " We're stuck with this insanity and the only solution is to bring the UN in, give them complete authority, allocate the funds required to rebuild this country, provide the security the people of Iraq need and to get those PNAC maniacs out of office and try them for crimes against humanity to make sure this crap can't happen again in this country.

[NNN0LHI]

15. We are beyond the "we must do the right thing" now

Can't you see that? When this country is in the same position that Iraq is in right now because our country is bankrupt, who will come to our aid? Any suggestions?

Don

[Caution]

26. Frankly

We as Americans have the ability to fix this country ourselves, we are the wealthiest nation on earth and there are a lot of wealthy progressives out there. All we need to do is rally behind the right people, and kick these neo-cons out of office and keep them out of office. That alone will fix most of the problems facing us. It's the reason our country has been so successful. When our leaders suck, we get rid of them. The Iraqis don't have this luxury. The whole thing pissed me off so much because I know that we shouldnt have been in there in the first place but now I feel like we are stuck with it. This isn't vietnam regardless of the comparisons that are being drawn to it. This was a war of agression by the United States where we destroyed a country. The solution can not be to destroy a country and then abandon it. What would that say abotu Americans as a people and about our country to the rest of the world?

[IndianaGreen]

16. Iraqis did fine before we imposed sanctions and bombed them

and Iraqis will do fine after we leave. Iraq was a thriving civilization when our European ancestors were still living in caves.

Other than the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of all American troops and civilian personnel from Iraq, the only other thing we owe the Iraqis is to pay them reparations.

[blondeatlast]

17. So what do we do with Iraq in the meantime? I wish it were that simple

but life just ain't, especially concerning war.

I want the troops home as mch, if not more, than anybody. But if you want the 411 on what things are like over threr now; check this site out--the International Committee of the Red Cross. It doesn't get much more neua=tral than this orgaanization.

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/535592B90512E642C1256D8F004FD62A

In short, our troops are just f**ked.

[imhotep]

9. GO ENLIST

if you feel any "obligation."

[Patriot_Spear]

11. Damn straight.

n/t

[Caution]

13. As a matter of fact

I went to my recruiting office and am unable to serve for health reasons. I am currently exploring the possibility of volunteer work for various humanitarian groups. If you feel no moral obligation to 30 million people that our leadership (legally elected or not) thrust into what may turn out to be a massive humanitarian crisis, I wonder why you would consider yourself a progressive?

[Patriot_Spear]

18. If a guy steals a bus...

...and manages to drive it to the next station, is he a thief, or a bus driver?

The troops we have over there can only make the situation worse. They're not acting as street cops you know- they're securing the oil reserves.

Iraq (Mesopotamia) is the cradle of civilization- I think they can figure out how to governe themselves. Our own Army, on Bush's* orders, stppoed them from conducting elections just two months ago.

The US is extending the problem, not ending it.

You want to do what's best for the Iraqi'? Get our troops out of the NOW!

[blondeatlast]

19. Check out this site:

www.icrc.org

International Committee of the Red Cross

And very well said about progressives and humanitarian crises.

[Patriot_Spear]

10. Send Grain, not Guns... Troops out NOW!

Right now, the whole country is one big shooting gallery with our troops as the tagets. They need to pulled out NOW.

As bitter a pill as it would be to swallow, the Shi'ite and Sunni clerics could organize some sort of civil orgainization- of course as soon as it stabalized there would be a three way civil war between the two Muslim factions and the Kurds in the North.

Let the UN set up a buffer zone between the factions and start restoring the county's infrastructure ASAP. All oil revenues to be turned over to a UN overseen account. All no-bid contractors currently in country should be ordered out IMMEDIATELY.

The most dangerous thing about people with nothing left to lose, is that they have nothing left to lose.

[Maeve]

14. Agree with that paragraph

Let the UN set up a buffer zone between the factions and start restoring the county's infrastructure ASAP. All oil revenues to be turned over to a UN overseen account. All no-bid contractors currently in country should be ordered out IMMEDIATELY.

I think America has to take responsibility for stirring the hornet's nest. I know it's Dubya's war, but our elected representatives let him do it. That obliges us to help prevent further Iraqi deaths if we possibly can.

[Patriot_Spear]

21. My point: 'Aid to Iraq' - doesn't have to be a tank on every corner...

The UN used to be safe in the country- until we showed up.

[Maeve]

22. Agreed again

We've screwed the country over, no argument. My point is that we need to clean up the mess we've made. I doubt that the current misadministration is capable of doing that--responsibility is a virtue they preach, but don't practice--but I can't support America washing its hands of Iraq without doing some of the re-building.

[Patriot_Spear]

23. I agree...

Maybe it's accidental or intentional- but it seems like the conversation, just about everywhere on DU, is whether to pull-out or not- What I believe it should be is how to transform the nature of the aid- from an occupation to a restoration.

Bush* is working overtime to keep the Clerics from taking control- but I believe this is just staving off an existing defacto situation.

[Maeve]

25. TOTALLY AGREE!

First, we need a regime change at home....

[NNN0LHI]

24. Maeve. I love you...a lot

But can you give me just one example of a country that we have rebuilt? I hope you can give me one, so maybe I can sleep tonight, because I am unable to think of one.

Don

[Maeve]

27. No, dear, I can't.

Countries have to rebuild themselves, but we have to help them pay for the damage we've done.

Sigh...both the "pull out now" and "we have to stay" groups have valid points. As I said earlier, I don't think this misadministration is capable of cleaning up the mess (which is part of the reason we need regime change here at home), but I can't feel right about us walking away, either.

I want a middle way--where the Iraqi people are given back their country while we assist. You know, that "humble" approach some lying bastard used to get so many people to vote for him...

[Patriot_Spear]

28. As COMPLETETLY unrelated as it is...

The US did work hard to restore Japan and Germany after WWII; based on the harsh lesson of what discontent breeds in the post WWI period.

I know this is a extreme example- but I think we have the potential to rebuild Iraq, without using the Colonial model that Bush* is currently using.

That being said, I don't see it happening anytime soon- France and Germany will insure any UN mandate their way, or Bush* can go roger himself.

edit: clarity

[Karenina]

31. Yes, GRAIN!

(Just not that Monsato stuff... ;-)) Yes, Patriot_Spear, what you said.
As if ANYONE reading this would allow someone who forced his way into the living room, killed family members (among other horrors and humiliations), pooped and pissed everywhere allowing his dog a similar freedom, destroyed the china, stole the cash and jewels, and farted in the face of brighter minds who declared beforehand that the plan to invade the home was ill-advised, BACK IN TO "CLEAN UP???" I don't think so. Get the fuck out. Like, NOW.

That 'Murikan pitbull pup done made a serious mess. First and foremost remove it from the premises or it will be be removed by any means necessary. Mark my words. THAT is reality.

[JVS]

20. We need to get out. They don't want us there.

Maybe if we spend the money usually spend on occupation to drop food and water into the country that would help, but our presence on the ground is highly unwelcome.

[Mari333]

29. The BFEE needs to do this

Get Bush on TV, apologize to the whole world, resign, hand over the country of Iraq to be rebuilt by the UN and every cent Halliburton and Bechtel have to be used to rebuild it...and the Carlyle Group..and Perle and Wolfowitz and all the PNAC criminals can hand over their assets also, including the Enron Execs who arent in jail...
and the whole Bush Cabal can send their assets over..
will this happen? no, but I dont want ONE more US tax dollar or ONE more soldier sent over..bring them home now, period. I was against this invasion and I shouldnt have to pay for it with money OR my son.

[bigtree]

30. Right

The only reason we are there is to push our notion of 'democratic government' on the Iraqi's who would, by all indications prefer some form of theocracy. Bush wants to install some kind of Shah of Iraq.
He didn't make a case for aiding the Iraqis as much as he stressed the need to win Iraq and manipulate it into a US satellite.

Aid can be handled by the UN. WE've done enough damage. US out of Iraq, Now!