Protesting the war at Fort Braggs - UFPJ making a big mistake

[robbedvoter]

debate on Air America - Rachel Madow vs Paul Rycoff.
I agree with paul: you protest the decision makers, NOT THE ARMY!

[BrklynLiberal]

1. His point of view has a lot of merit.....but I hope he is wrong and the

demonstrations do not insult the troops. Perhaps they will have signs that will make it clear that they are NOT there to antagonize the trooops.
There is no way that they are going to cancel the demo in Fayetteville at this point.

[robbedvoter]

2. Remember the caller who was in Germany during Kosovo?

"They came to our home and yelled at my 6 years old"
How clearer can it be that they are antagonizing our potential allies?

[IrateCitizen]

5. You're not entirely informed on this, robbedvoter...

Read my post #4, below.

[Sperk]

3. I wish I could have gotten on to ask Paul a question. Sadly, I think he's

probably correct in his position. My question is...If the service people will be angry and see it as a protest AGAINST THEM instead of what I think it is...concerned citizens trying to save their lives, citizens who have the utmost respect for them and believe it is the ultimate disrespect to send our troops in harms way unnecessarily, not to mention the billions of dollars wasted, civilian deaths, fabricated evidence, etc. Then....

Why should I care that they are in this war? I don't mean that in a nasty way. I'm serious. Should I take their lives (and possible loss of it) off my reasons for protesting this war?

It's hard for me to understand the soldier's mentality. If my son was stationed there, I'd be glad to see Americans fighting to get him home. I wouldn't care where a protest was as long as it was.

But then again...I don't seem to understand anything anymore. The world makes no sense to me since Dec 12 2001.

[IrateCitizen]

4. Paul Reichoff is wrong on this account...

Then again, Operation Truth (Reichoff's organization), while doing a lot of good things to get the word out on soldiers' experiences, has also failed in not condemning the war on Iraq.

The protests outside Ft. Bragg were NOT predominantly organized by UFPJ. They were organized by Bring Them Home Now, Military Families Speak Out, and Iraq Veterans Against the War. The protest is NOT being leveled against the troops, but rather to express the wish that they are BROUGHT HOME NOW! The majority of people there will be ex-military, military families, and friends of service members.

Personally, I appreciate all of the work that Paul has done, and much of it has been valuable. But he does not speak for the entire sector of the military that questions this war, and it is quite brazen for him to continually attempt to do so. Perhaps a better debate would have been between Paul Reichoff and Mike Hoffman, national coordinator for Iraq Veterans Against the War.

Also, there were demos at Fayetteville last year. One of the members of the 82nd Airborne who came off post to attend it was a young soldier named Perry O'Brien, a medic who was soon after deployed to Afghanistan. Perry filed for and received CO discharge after he got back, and I helped co-found the www.peace-out.com conscientious objector support network with him and a couple of others about 2 months ago. In fact, there were SEVERAL AD soldiers who attended last year, and I'm certain even MORE will attend this year.

There were 3 things that brought Vietnam to an end. A broad-based antiwar movement at home, a Vietnamese insurgency that refused to give up, and open dissent and even rebellion within the ranks of the military. The purpose of this demo in Fayetteville is to help accentuate the third leg of that stool WRT Iraq.

[robbedvoter]

6. he is definitely savyier than UFP, Rachel. "What's the purpose?"

is a question that any activist should ask before organizing an event.
We had a lot of Iraq veterans come to our Clark meet-ups. A lot of soldiers are on our side. This stupid move will embarrass them, maybe even turn some of them off and give the RNC media a boon. Nothing good will come to the anti-war dialogue in this country from it.
I wonder if UFPJ was infiltrated to go so suddenly dumb after they were so brilliant.

[IrateCitizen]

8. Nice ad hominem, but it's far from the truth

As a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, I think I have a pretty good insight into the way in which veterans are on our side. I also think that, knowing the people in IVAW, MFSO and BTHN, that they're going to do this demo in the right way.

Then again, judging by your response, you didn't even really READ my initial post, because you failed to address ANY of the points I raised.

And I can assure you that UFPJ was NOT infiltrated, because I'm intimately involved with them.

[G_j]

7. thanks, good post

maybe I'll see ya there..

peace!

[IrateCitizen]

9. Oh, I'll be there for sure!

I'll be with the IVAW crowd. You know, the guys and gals wearing BDU tops and such....

[Itsthetruth]

13. Anti-war Movement Should Reach Out To The GI's

Thanks for the clarifying post. Supporters of the invasion and occupation of Iraq try to portray the anti-war movement as being against GI's. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It is the anti-war movement that wants to end the misuse and abuse of soldiers. We want them home. Most want to come home. Their loved ones want them back home. Bush wants to keep them in Iraq.

So who really supports the good and welfare of the GI's? We do. Not those who have sent them to die and shed blood to advance colonial ambitions and aims.

[IrateCitizen]

10. BTW, robbedvoter, it's Ft. BRAGG, not Ft. BRAGGS...

You can't even get that simple fact right, and you feel qualified to speak authoritatively on this issue????

[robbedvoter]

11. I am no authority in military bases. I know a few things about strategy

and this is just going against everything we want to accomplish (stop the war).

[IrateCitizen]

12. READ MY POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT, ROBBEDVOTER!!!

You have failed to address ONE SINGLE POINT I raised. You simply keep repeating the same mantra, over and over again.

If you don't want to be taken seriously, then refusing to engage in dialogue and debate is a good tactic. However, I have raised SEVERAL points that demonstrate why this is a good idea, but you either ignored them completely or rejected them because they did not fit your point of view.

[Itsthetruth]

14. Anti-war Movement Doing Exactly The Right Thing

The anti-Vietnam war movement reached out to active duty soldiers. Within a few years may anti-war newsletters, published by soldiers, began appearing on military installations all over the United States and abroad.

GI's began protesting that war in growing numbers. They began to participate in civilian demonstrations. They began asserting their right to speak out and demonstrate when they were off duty and out of uniform. Some stayed in uniform. With strong civilian support, it became difficult for the military brass to victimize the anti-war soldiers.

And thousands of return Vietnam war veterans began to organize against the war demanding that all the troops be brought home.

That's a vital part of the anti-Vietnam war movement that's not so widely known or publicized.

Today's anti-war movement can learn a lot from that experience. It looks like many activists have.

[WebeBlue]

15. Interesting thread here, Military Family weighing in..

We have 2 close loved ones in our family, who are now young Iraq veterans having served an extended (15 months) tour in Iraq. Both now are under orders + Stop Lossed for 2nd tour in Iraq within a few short months. Both also are to make decision about re-enlist this month. Since they are Stop Lossed already, they will wind up in Iraq whether they decide to re-enlist or not, less the 'attractive' bonus being offered as enticement to re-enlist. Public is likely only to hear about the bonus, not about the Stop Loss already in place that will have to influence their decision. What kind of choice is this? Not much of a choice at all, and I'd say the all volunteer military has been exploited severely to become an involuntary military with a death sentence hanging over the troops heads.

With media coverage swinging to what is going well in Iraq, the public has little reason to experience the outrage and mobilize to act as was done in the 60's with Vietnam. Interestingly, I've seen dozens of threads here at DU that ask when are we going to mobilize and hit the streets, and where are the anti-war and peace protesters. Well here we are and here we have been for 2 years now = Military Families Speak Out, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Operation Truth, the recently formed Military Families Against the War UK, newly formed Gold Star Families for Peace and supportive partners like Veterans for Peace, Bring Them Home Now, Not in Our Name, 100,000 and Counting, Eyes Wide Open, Code Pink, American Friends Society Association, Peace Out and any number of other local regional peace activist groups.

Wouldn't it behoove the greater good to hear what military families that are finding the courage to speak out have to say? It is not the usual protocol or in compliance with the military culture for military families, much less the troops themselves to speak out in challenging the administration's decsions. For my own, I know there is clear understanding that my voice is not speaking against the troops, rather on behalf of what they cannot say publicly. There is (from where I sit) a great deal of support from the troops for those of us who are speaking out to bring the troops home and they are able to discern the difference. Equally there are a good number of troops who tow the line and will give non-committal credence to the bring the troops home message.

You can't have it both ways as citizens, crying 'ain't it a shame about the war in Iraq and our lost young' or 'when are we going to do something about it..anything' and then when enough military-related soldiers and families do mobilize to make a loud, national statement, criticize the value or potential outcome of doing so.

Recommendation, put into action and show support for those willing to attempt to change the national dialogue. Recently in Oregon and in Washington (March 05) we have presented a Resolution to the Governors of both states to call home their state's National Guard. What this does is opens dialogue about community taxpayer constituency concerns...it becomes a political dialogue. It enters from a different point the same dialogue and I am hopeful shifts some from the stalemate standoff of anti-war / pro-war dialogue.

To call out to bring them home now is not necessarily an anti-war stance as much as it is a challenge to the validity of this war and the human cost. In my mind it is a serious call to conscience on the part of every other citizen out there who has a citizen's duty to our troops when they are sent into combat.

see Military Families Speak Out http://www.mfso.org/

see our own Pacific Northwest Military Families Speak Out and the two Resolutions (downloadable for printout) for Washington and Oregon Governors Gregoire and Kulongoski
http://coastalrain.tripod.com/wmfso/

Invitation; help find a way to translate the dialogue and take action. As Martin Luther King Jr once said when dealing with a similar political climate and war (Vietnam) "A time comes when silence is betrayal."



Lietta Ruger, a MFSO Pacific Northwest family


To Give Dignity to Man is Above All Things; Native American proverb

[IrateCitizen]

16. Thank your for your input and your courage, WebeBlue...

I am a member of IVAW and have tried to weigh in on this thread promoting the POSITIVE reasons for organzing a large protest at Ft. Bragg, but the OP has thus far refused to listen. But you took the time to discuss this substantively and to very clearly lay out the aim of our common organizations.

[BrklynLiberal]

22. I salute your courage and the dedication to peace.

[IrateCitizen]

17. Who in the hell is Paul Reichoff to speak on this, anyway???

Unless OpTruth has done a 180 recently, they are NOT calling for the end to the war. They have NEVER questioned its legitimacy or necessity. Their issues are primarily around the idea that the soldiers and marines have been shafted by not receiving proper equipment and an unclear mission.

As soon as OpTruth actually takes even the LEADERS to task for starting an immoral war, or dares to call it as such, then Paul Reichoff is in no position to talk about what the antiwar movement is doing right or wrong.

[biscotti]

18. I am having a hard time with this guy

Like you I don't understand what he is saying are were he is coming from. It's like he is confused are just making a name for himself are a plant to divert attention. If he is still on active duty why hasn't he be called back like so many others? He said he was willing to go?

[IrateCitizen]

19. I've spoken to him personally, and know where he's coming from...

He refuses to discuss the legitimacy of the war in an effort to get the stories of soldiers out to the widest possible audience. His aims are certainly good, it's his tactics that many of us disagree with.

He was a platoon leader with the 3rd ID in Iraq, serving there for a year. He has since returned to his old position in the NY National Guard.

I can't say I don't support his efforts to get soldiers' voices in the mainstream. In fact, it's a worthy cause. However, he has absolutely NO PLACE speaking on whether the antiwar movement is or is not doing the right thing when he hasn't dared so much to stick his neck out and take a stance on the legitimacy of morality of the war itself.

[WebeBlue]

20. Not to quibble, but I thought OP Truth

indicated it was a non-partisan, non-political organization, therefore keeping the message focused on the troops issues. I have heard Paul Reichoff speak publicly a number of times and do not take excetion to the message he delivers, as it has parallelled many of our own concerns. I saw him in video just prior to the election where he went to the Republican Convention and interviewed republicans on the floor, pointing out many of the concerns affecting the troops in Iraq (and Afghanistan) and asked pointedly of the young republicans if they were going to enlist to help the cause. It was an eye-opener to me showing the extreme disconnect between the rhetoric of republican's supporting the President by supporting the war as indeed empty of any feeling or compassion for the real human beings at risk.

The ones he interviewed showed extreme discomfort at his questions to absolutely no knowledge of the issues he was calling to light. It provided me with a heads up that the propaganda of support the troops is indeed often just that, propaganda and empty of meaning. It also told me clearly that young republicans and old republican Legislators seem to have no intention in mind of sending their own; that whomever enlisted or was already enlisted would take care of it and it was not a matter of concern to them. But then with Barbara Bush and her statement of why should her beautiful mind think of body bags, guess neither do the republicans need to think about body bags. Yeah, that's too general, but I remember the startling impact it had on me in hearing it first hand out of the mouths on the republican floor.

Also saw Paul Reichoff speaking with Bobby Meuller (sp), a long time voice for Iraq Veterans Against the War dating back to Vietnam and when Kerry was an eloquent Voice for that movement.

Okay so set me straight, how is Paul Reichoff not helping with the message? Has he gone on record publicly in some way that detracts from the message? Curious, not a challenge, as maybe I'm missing something.

[IrateCitizen]

21. I didn't say he's not helping with the message...

Hell, I even appear in the excellent documentary his org produced, "The Ground Truth". So do many of my brothers and sisters in IVAW. And don't worry -- I take no exception to your post!

OpTruth is doing a tremendous job in just getting stories of soldiers out there in the mainstream. However, the reluctance/inability of his org to take a stance on whether or not the war was/is legit is a source of frustration. On one hand, I'm sure they want to try and reach the broadest possible audience -- and see taking a stance as diminishing it. On the other hand, by failing to take a stance, they could be participating to the dragging on of the war.

That's why I'm involved with IVAW and not OpTruth. IVAW has taken the path of calling the war unjust, immoral and unnecessary. IVAW is calling for the troops to be brought home NOW. OpTruth doesn't express one way or the other if the troops should stay or leave. That's the primary difference, and the reason for (I'm sorry to say, but it's true) a bit of emnity between the two groups.

Furthermore, I just don't think that Paul Reickhoff has any business talking about the legitimacy/illegitimacy of an antiwar demonstration, when he has never been a member of the antiwar movement nor has he taken a stance on that issue. You made it quite clear in your previous post that the demo was being primarily organized by MFSO, IVAW, BTHN, and other military-affiliated orgs. Paul was being disingenuous by trying to portray the demo as being organized by UFPJ who, while participating, was NOT the primary organizer.

[WebeBlue]

23. Tx, and pardon my ignorance but what is UFPJ ??

also so there is no misunderstanding, I thank you enormously for your own courage IrateCitizen, for speaking as an Iraq Veteran. It is my belief that more has to come from the troops themselves, if we are to see any shift in the public dialogue. As the families of the troops, we can have our own military family voice, yet the power is in the soldiers themselves (imo).

adding this link of another DU thread to the conversation, it's relevant, another wounded Iraq veteran sharing his own voice;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3276508

[IrateCitizen]

24. UFPJ: United for Peace and Justice

It's the umbrella org that organized the big antiwar demos over the past couple of years.

Thanks for the accolade, but I'm a bit of a mixed bag with my experiences. If you want the whole story, shoot me a PM and I'll respond.

[WebeBlue]

25. uh, no can do, IrateCitizen, I'm not yet a donor here...

limited options, and hope to be donating when our one income finances give us some wiggle room. Meantime Please DO email me at [e-mail] . Would enjoy hearing more from you.

[Gold Metal Flake]

30. You are now. Enjoy your star.

You look like the sort who can do good things.

:hi:

[LizW]

26. I was bummed out by their screaming at each other

Rachel wouldn't give an inch and Paul had to resort to sort of personal slams against her that made me dislike him. He came across with that arrogant "better American than you" attitude that I've never heard from him before.

What Rachel wouldn't admit is that it is much harder than we non-military people realize to separate in perception protest against the war from disrespect for the troops. While it may be clear to us, military people and their families often have a hard time seeing the distinction.

You can't discount the fact that one of the things that balances the sacrifice of military service is the heightened respect and admiration gained by military families during times of war. That sense of "specialness" is very precious. Protests, even those clearly opposing the war and supporting the troops, threaten the source of that special status. Perhaps that's one reason why Paul never comes out in opposition to the war.

I'm one of those people Rachel made fun of who says they're both right. I don't think we should protest in Fayetteville. It is too easy to confuse the action with a protest against the soldiers. But we should protest EVERYWHERE until the war ends, even though Paul sneered that it wasn't making a difference.

[Gold Metal Flake]

27. Perception, or rather how the right will spin this, is the issue.

Keep in mind that this war is supported by the big coporations, and some of them own the media. Keep in mind how the Payola Press is only too happy to discredit the left by any means necessary.

So, a photog has about 100 pictures of this event. One pix shows a protester with a sign that slams b* or similar. Perhaps there are words on it like killer or such that are aimed at b*co or rummy or some other leadership figure. The holder of the sign is yelling or chanting with vigor. Passion, in one picture, looks like anger. Perfect!! Crop here, isolate the face and the inflammatory word (now taken completely out of context), add a lie or two and you have the spin that will be transmitted all over the United States and to our troops via Fox on satellite.

Dems discredited, made an object of hate. Again.

Mission accomplished.

My suggestion, for what it’s worth. Coordinate ALL SIGNS AND BANNERS with a positive message about the troops. “Bring them home” or “save our troops” or similar. No signs espousing hatred of any guv’t figure allowed at all. Smile. Smile and keep smiling. Let the numbers of participants speak.

Show up proud, numerous, on-message and with nothing but love for our children.

In other words, give the bastards in the Payola Press nothing to work with.

Of course, I'm just a moron who knows nothing. Please ignore me.

EDIT: Spelling, 'natch.

[WebeBlue]

29. Opposite Reaction, I don't intend to ignore you..you're right on

target with your observations. Thank you for sharing and posting. And all I can add is ditto. My hope is building a (pardon the pun) coalition of the willing on topic with one message that is not hate-filled but reflects the growing concerns of many on behalf of the troops. The recent Vermont Town Hall meetings managed to shift the dialogue by staying with the message to bring the troops home (well National Guard in that instance). We can do better? We can come together and mobilize cohesively in large numbers around fewer diverse topics and get results with one very large repetitive voice. Hmmm, who uses those strategies already, I wonder?

[WebeBlue]

28. LizW, thanks for adding dimension to this discussion

as it is exactly the Perception that has caused a stalemate in the dialogue, and I have found for myself, the deliberateness of the framing by administration and press has caused an unnecessary schism even amongst our own military families. I have nothing but respect for the sacrifices military families make while the troops are deployed. I have had the dubious honor of being the first line of support to my own daughter while her husband was deployed and seen close up the daily tribulations she has had to contend with that go mostly unacknowledged.

To some degree I agree with the idea of the sacrifice of military service heightening the respect and admiration for military families during times of war. And I agree with you that it has been difficult for military families in general to accept that protests to the war are not protests of the troops or their families. What also factors though, into that is in my opinion two things; 1) a deliberate and intentional manipulation on part of administration to frame the definition of patriotism and create schisms or polarized views thereby preventing any growth of authentic discussion or dialogue and 2) the long-held tradition in the military culture to keep opinions to oneself in silence, more so when it is critical of the Commander-in-Chief.

What makes this generation's Military Families daring to speak out unique is that it breaks with that long-held military tradition. In my mind, it sets about attempting to create a new paradigm in the proud military culture. As for myself, I am raised a military brat, was young wife to young husband drafted and sent to Vietnam. Now I am mother(in-law) and aunt to two young Iraq veterans. I well know the 'code' of military culture and speaking out is contrary to the long established tradition. No parent or wife or spouse or sibling or family ought feel that the sacrifice of their own loved one sent into combat should not be reason to challenge the very nobility of the traditionalist military culture being used in exploitive fashion to further the victimized into deeper silence.

Again, in my opinion, this whole anti war / pro war dialogue needs to change as it is sterile in it's present form and the issues are very potent and significant to us all, military family or civilian.

I welcome the discussion, and I am not invested in being 'right', I am invested in broadening the opportunities.

[adwon]

31. As someone actually from Fayetteville

I recall several protests over the last couple of years. They're not high-profile because the protesters act like adults. I've heard of 'counter-protesters' who drive by and yell insults, but it really appears that most people aren't going to venture an opinion one way or the other. Also, it helps that the protesters are smart enough not to protest near the base. They do it downtown.

[diamond14]

32. another attack on PRO-PEACE activists....pre-emptive attacks now...

it's all out SLAMMING DEGRADING name-calling against all PRO-PEACE groups...pre-emptive ATTACKS...before they even get to the event...

------------------------------

the FIRST ONE was an attempt to destroy the efforts of the GOLD STAR MOTHERS to "Bring the Troops home NOW"...the attack was SO NASTY, that the 'leader of Gold Star Mothers' had to WRITE A LETTER to the attacker and DEMAND that he STOP undermining their PRO-PEACE efforts...of course, that took valuable time away from preparations for this weekend....


THEN, there was the attack against those who 'carry the 1000 coffins to MEMORIALIZE our dead soldiers"...another very vicious attack against PRO-PEACE people....


and NOW, an attack against those BRAVE AMERICAN PATRIOTS who are going to South Carolina, many traveling overnight on buses, to STAND UP and BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW !.....

------------------------

seems it's an ALL OUT ATTACK against every single pro-peace group this time....pre-emptive ATTACKS....diss them before they ever get to the event.....smash them down, degrade them, call them names...and so many DUers are buying into this crap of PRE-EMPTIVE degradation of any activists....some of the threads got to be very LONG diatribes calling names, claiming it's WRONG and STUPID to protest against WAR, calling them useless, and of course, claiming that it's IMPORTANT for our oil that the WAR continue (that's the attack that STARTED this trend, which continues now in full force)....and the scam has scared many out of going to a PRO-Peace event, and also, tied up EVERYONE's time...wasting time that could have been used to PLAN EVENTS, WORK FOR PEACE...this crap seems to have very much succeeded in ruining all the PRO-PEACE EFFORTs already....


the STEALTH destruction of the PRO-PEACE movement...started by dissing GOLD STAR MOTHERS....and it caught on....sad....pathetic...