Anyone else smell a fishmarket in Ashley Smith's story of Brian Nichols???

[skip fox]

Maybe it happened as she said, but there are gaping HOLES. She followed him in her car? (Why not bolt if the guy was such a killer?) He let her go (as some stories say) or she 1/2 escaped (as other imply).

Yes . . . ripening fish in the background.

If you agree, how long do you think it will be until the story expodes?? If so, do you think it will become political with her story of Christianity saving the day? Not that it can't, but . . . . well, all seems too pat.

[Beacho]

1. Oh man, there's some wicked lines in that title

Ain't gonna touch 'em

Nope

Wouldn't be prudent, at this juncture

:evilgrin:

[SpiralHawk]

2. my hackles went up when I listened to her tell her story

I don't know why. i didn't hear any "facts" that set off an alarm. And she appeared sober and sensible. But for what it's worth I just had a funny, inexplicable "sixth sense" mistrust of the whole thing.

[zann725]

56. Me too! Particularly the Christianity angle. Plus, CNN, psy-op central,

kept re-looping it...focusing more on her than him.
Question also: He's a rapist, right? He stayed at her apartment, and did NOT rape her too? Or did I miss that coverage?
A truckload of fish, indeed. Paid for by tax-payer dollars.

[Blue_In_AK]

84. Just because someone has been accused of rape

doesn't mean they're going to rape every woman they get around.

[zann725]

150. This is NOT just someone "accused" of rape. He cold-bloodedly killed 4

(including a Judge)...and stole a vehicle, broke into an apartment, held a hostage OVER NIGHT IN HER APARTMENT. And did NOTHING... fully knowing he was going back into prison for LIFE, if not Death Row?! NO. I do NOT 'buy' he wouldn't try and rape her...with or WITHOUT "God's" intervention.

This story stinks SO HIGH, and the media's "cannonizing" of this woman makes me puke! It's ps-op's all over again. And CNN is #1 in line doing it, as usual.

[Blue_In_AK]

193. No, no, no....

I'm certainly not condoning what he did, and maybe you're right that something "went on" there at Ms. Smith's house that we don't know about. I'm just saying that I personally can't necessarily conclude that just because he raped one woman and murdered the others, that he necessarily raped this woman. Whatever anger, rage, fear or other emotion was motivating him to become so violent may have been dispelled by the time he got to her, and on some level he just wanted it to be over. Maybe I'm not an expert, but I have worked around the law and corrections for 30 years, and the one thing I've learned is that no two cases are the same, and that people who commit really horrendous acts also have a human side. It's not inconceivable that Ms. Smith managed to touch Mr. Nichols' human side, and that's what saved her.

[Tomee450]

62. AMEN!!

[spanone]

70. CNN kept calling it a miracle. I think it was a human talking to a human.

If it happened that way at all.

[efhmc]

76. Posted before I saw your post but I totally agree.

[HeeBGBz]

107. Yeah, just seemed too easy

This guy who killed these peeps is not so freakin wired that he would listen to some chick read the Bible and call her an angel and just give up?

Did he just shut off that desperation that drove him to kill and run?

I suppose it's possible but like you said, it struck me as fishy.

[Career Prole]

3. Fishmarket?

:eyes:

[skypilot]

4. I read in my local paper...

...that she made him pancakes (?!?!) and he was really moved by it.

[liberalitch]

9. Maybe, just maybe....

no body ever made him food before.

Maybe she was the first person who tired to "take care of him".

.... sounds like he had experienced nothing but the worst of what society has to offer before that.

.... be that as it may.... no matter what we have experienced there is no excuse for violence. Self control is what separates us from the animals... at least some of us.

[skip fox]

13. Sure. Perhaps.

:toast:

[H2O Man]

15. Please list

the "worst of what society has to offer" that he was subjected to. His middle class family? His college education? His comfortable income? Perhaps his being held responsible for his criminal actions?

[MADem]

18. Worst of society??? No way!!!!!!!!

He went to catholic school, played football, was a good student, a good kid, went to college in PA, had a GREAT job doing computer work for UPS, lived in a nice apt complex in BUCKHEAD (good neighborhood), drove a nice car (BMW?), had an eight year relationship with a lovely woman, came from a good, intact, close knit, caring family (both parents professionals, mom is currently a contractor for the gov't of Tanzania setting up their tax code, she is a retired IRS agent).....

This guy SNAPPED. Why, who knows? But he was by no means a member of the "flotsam and jetsam" of society, a ghetto boy, or whatnot. His background is solid middle class. I think he is either mentally ill due to brain chemistry imbalance, or has a lesion or tumor on his brain. He never had any run ins with the law before his major traffic stop, followed quickly by his unexpected assault on his long term girlfriend, who said he was never abusive previous to the attack...and then THIS. He snapped--it will be interesting to learn why.

[prolesunited]

21. How could that be?!?!?

Did you see he was African-American? Clearly, he had to grow up in a gang-infested ghetto, with a single mom and a father in prison. :eyes:

[BronxDiva]

40. No, but not everyone is enlightened…

I saw an interview with one of the jurors, which didn’t sit
well with me (I think it was live and didn't see it repeated).
 He claimed the jurors felt intimidated by Nichols because he
watched their reactions carefully and they pretty much had
their minds made up about him.  Was it his watching that made
them nervous or the fact that he’s a well-built, young black
man?  His defense attorney couldn’t get on camera fast enough
too. It doesn’t excuse what he did, but he probably felt the
deck was stacked against him and as someone already said,
snapped.

[H2O Man]

48. That interview

was with a member of the first jury, which did not convict him. He was going to be found guilty in the second trial, not because he is black or young and athletic, but because he is guilty of the crime he was charged with. The prosecution had brought in far more complete evidence for the retrial. The only reason the "deck was stacked against him" is because he was guilty.

[Carni]

110. Yeah really... and he'd never tasted butter according to her

This story not only smells like a fish market there are rotting tails and heads strung all over the place IMO

[FreedomAngel82]

173. Are you serious about the butter?

LOL. Yeah right. He never tasted butter before?

[H2O Man]

197. Think he might

have been lying to her? Poor guy. Never had butter before. Was just amazed that she made pancakes.

[H2O Man]

26. sociopath

He is a sociopath, and nothing but a sociopath.

[ultraist]

128. How can you make that judgment without knowing his background?

Saying he is a sociopath based on two incidents (the rape and the spree) isn't possible. There is no way to know without looking at his history.

Sociopaths exhibit symptoms early on, often times, killing animals, breaking rules at school, and other anti social behaviors. Their violent behavior often peaks in their 20s and early 30s and wanes later in life, but not always. They are BORN with this mental disorder.

I think the guy may be somewhat narcissistic but not necessarily a full blown sociopath.

It's very likely he had a psych eval prior to his first trial. I doubt the jury would have been hung, if they had diagnosed him as a sociopath.

Regardless, if he is a sociopath, this whole notion that he empathized with her having a daughter or "connected" with her, is BS. Sociopaths don't empathize nor are they capable of emotionally connecting.

[jdj]

33. 30s and 40s is when schizophrenia and bipolar disorder

really get going gangbusters in many people.

the things he said, according to her about being a soldier and his people needing him sound delusional.

Oh shit. I just had another thought.

What if they made a deal, she corroborates an insanity defense for him by repeating his statements in the press, and she in return gets the award money.

It's got to be something, because I don't believe a damn word she's saying and I didn't the first time I saw her on tv, before I even knew who she was or what her story was.

[H2O Man]

38. Only in a very small minority

of people do either affective or schizophrenic disorders begin to show up in the 30s or 40s.

His statement about being a "soldier" is simply an inflated view of himself, possibly with a plan for a defense. It does not indicate anything close to a delusional system of thought.

His behaviors do not fit with a major mental illness. He was able to escape an area with a good many police looking for him. He was not exhibiting any confused thinking; for example, when the one poor bastard refused to get into the trunk of the green car, he knew that he couldn't get far in it, so he parked it one level down.

Everything about him says sociopath, including his entire interaction with Ashley Smith.

[jaysunb]

72. Question...

is there a cure for a person considered a sociopath ?

[SoCalDem]

73. Nope.. Their brains are "wired" differently

Sociopaths can fake it for long periods of time, but they lack empathy and conscience so eventually their true nature bubbles back to the surface.

[H2O Man]

87. Interesting answer.

There are several good studies that indicate that there are indeed differences in the hard-wiring. It might be a bit early to say that there is proof that this is always the case. There is also an ongoing debate about genetics versus environment; I consider that to be a relatively unimportant debate, because genetics and environment are a blend ..... it's as if there was a debate about if yellow or blue are more important in making green, as a friend once told me.

The vast majority of sociopaths do not commit murder, and are not rapists or violent criminals per say. Likewise, the majority are not super-smart evil doers. They are instead fucked up people who create havoc, pain, and misery in other peoples' lives.

For the sub-group that does engage in violent crime, there is a percentage that "age out" of violent crime at about the age 42. It is not certain what factors influence this: it may be something akin to insight, it may be a change in brain chemistry as the result of the aging process.

As far as treatment with medication or therapy, there is no advantage to either, and no indication of these traditional treatments working in any cases on record.

[SoCalDem]

90. One of my sons was diagnosed with "anti-social sociopathic disorder"

at 15. He had NO QUALMS at all for anything he did. He had scrapes with the law, failed in school (with a 160+ IQ), followed few if any rules, and was perfectly ok with it. Years of therapy and surviving his teens seemed to have helped him a lot. he's self-sufficient and staying out of trouble at 28.

The shrink told us that 99% of locked up criminals have this disorder, but not all people with it become criminals..some become successful salespeople (a good profession for them because truth is not important), business people, lawyers... They need professions that allow them to be in control, since they do not do well with authority figures.

He also told us that most are men.. Maybe something in utero when the "chemical wash" that makes them male affects their brain chemistry..:shrug:

[H2O Man]

95. Most of those incarcerated

have antisocial personality disorder. Sociopaths are a small subgroup of antisocials. The % of sociopaths in prison is quite small in comparison to the antisocial population.

There are a number of people who believe that ASPD for males is the approximate of borderline personality disorder in females. I don't think they are a real match, although few men are diagnosed borderline, and until recent years, relatively few females were diagnosed ASPD. My wife used to work in facilities on the west coast, and tells me that there was a higher rate of female ASPD diagnosed in females from minority groups.

Many sociopaths can harness their talents, and become lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc. There are, of course, degrees of sociopathy.

One thing that everyone in the field agrees with across the board, is that parents can be "normal" and nurturing, but still have a child with sociopathic tendencies. It often creates a sense of guilt and inadequacy in those parents, although they have done nothing wrong. The fact that the parents feel those emotions shows a huge difference between them and their child.

[jaysunb]

148. Another question....

Thanks for your insight and information.

I wonder if a person recognizes they have sociopathic traits are capable of changing themselves ? or is there is some specific thearapy called for.

[SoCalDem]

149. Most do recognize it, but don't care

Our son's shrink said that maturity can sometimes "help", and if they are lucky and do not have too many stressful events, some can do just fine. It's the unknown events that we all have occur that throws them for a loop.. They ACT first, and often don't even think about the consequences or care about them. They tend to be very narcissistic and evaluate everything as to how it affects THEM..but rarely think about how THEIR actions affect others..:(

Our son lived through the "danger years" and emerged fairly intact, but lots of reckless young people do not.:(
He has not been successful in romantic relationships though. He is very demanding, and immature so after a while, the girls/women he has been with look for a more mature guy. He's a looker and women gravitate to him because of his intellect and personality, but he's a selfish person and not very empathetic..

The one characteristic that he doesn't have is the insensitivity to animals. he will still weep over our dearly departed animals whe he sees pictures of them, and he's a great "Dad" to his pets.

We still have hope for him, and like I said, he;s doing better now than he ever has before..even took job loss in stride and found another one.:)

[H2O Man]

155. There's an old saying

about sociopaths: they know the words, but not the music. Thus, when most sociopaths have therapy, they are able to repeat the correct concepts, but not integrate them into their lives. For this reason, for example, sociopasths in forensic situations will frequently volunteer for group/individual therapy, but not invest in it. Rather, they manipulate to get a better deal for themselves.

Regarding a man in his late 20s, who was diagnosed at age 15: while I can only speculate, a few of the things you say make me wonder. Even 15 years ago, diagnosing sociopathy was not quite as accurate as today. A 15-year old would have needed much more than a share of scrapes with the law. In light of his IQ, is it possible that he was ASPD with narcissism, which might also explain a non-caring attitude, as well as relationship issues. I could be wrong, of course, but the connection with animals doesn't seem to fit. Of course, there are variations on everything. Were you comfortable with the diagnosis in terms of accuracy?

[SoCalDem]

159. He had more than a "few" scrapes..and was incarcerated for 8 months

when he was 16..He did "marvelously" while he was locked up. Prior to that he did multiple stints in juvenile hall.. he was "in therapy" off and on from the time he was 12.. Until puberty, he was a "model" child..straight A's, stubborn, but eventually obedient..The first inkling we had was when, at TWELVE, he just took off for 8 days.. Every time the phone rang, we expected to hear a policeman asking us to come and identify a head they had found in an orange grove.. Where had he been?? He went surfing at San Onofre with a bunch of 18 & 19 year olds... He just waltzed in one afternoon as if he had been next door watching TV. His rationale? If he had ASKED, we would have said NO..DUH!!


He was "into" substance abuse, tagging, theft..you name it.. We "delivered" him to the police on more than one occasion for stealing our car, my jewelry, etc..and each time they basically laughed at us and told us it was "a family matter" and that they did not get involved until they committed a felony.. There was NO pro-active help for us..even therapy was only marginally effective because he rationalized everything as "our problem" because HE didn't think his behavior was outrageous..

We tried every kind of intervention, and nothing worked. The shrink said that normally the diagnosis was NOT applied to someone as young as he, but in HIS case it all fit.Meds did nothing except make him sleepy (which we did not mind, but HE did..)

He even had the nerve to "complain" that we did not buy him a car:eyes:. We never even allowed him to get a drivers' license while he lived here (he moved out at 20).. We reminded him that his shenanigans cost us the equivalent of a couple of Porsches..

Calif charged us $68 a DAY for the 8 months he was at "camp".. We were scared to death for him.. He was one of FIVE Anglo kids at this juvenile work camp.. The others were Bloods, Crips, Asian gang members..His "counselor" complemented him on his "leadership" and intelligence.. Color us stunned! But "on his own" he could not handle things at all.

Complicating matters was the fact that his younger brother was valedictorian, Prom King, Homecoming King, summa cum laude, 4 sport letterman.. you name it. I know it irked him that we praised his younger brother.

edit to add:

The "event" that got him 8 months was when he was a passenger in a stolen car escapade. He had the NERVE to do the following..

The cop stopped them.. they ran.. the cop SHOT at them )luckily missed), and when our son realized that he had left HIS BROTHER'S new leather jacket in the back seat of the car they STOLE..he called the owner and asked for the jacket back.. (The guy gave it back :eyes:..)

Talk about NERVE! We did not even find this out until a cop brought the jacket to our house one day ..

[H2O Man]

162. Okay, that makes sense.

One of the things that happens frequently is that parents view their child's bahavior in terms of their parenting, or question their genetics, etc. It sounds like you are able to realize it wasn't you, your family, and that you couldn't have helped by doing things differently. That's unfortunately uncommon, which is odd, because it shows that the parents feel guilt and have a conscience that their child does not have. Everyone who has a sociopath in their family ends up paying a price, it seems, including siblings, often cousins, etc.

Sociopathy has a long history, of course. In the books of the O.T., there is reference to "lions waiting near the path" that warns of sociopaths. Reid Maloy's books have theories on why the occurance of sociopathy seems to be on the rise.

When I did forensic psychiatric social work, sociopaths posed real difficulties. There are, of course, huge differences between violent people and non-violent people. I think what struck me the most was the waste of talent in some cases. At the same time, I learned t never trust them on anything they said.

[SoCalDem]

163. I forgot about the LYING.. you reminded me..

He would tell the most outrageous lies when he didn't even NEED to..

One time my husband commented on our neighbor's new car. Our son piped up with this gem..

The car in their driveway was a friend's car. The friend had borrowed the neighbors' van because they needed it for a long trip and their car was too samll. We just said.. Okay.. flash forward a couple of weeks. my husband ran into the wife in the store, and she said.."How do you like our new car?".. We confronted him on his "tall tale" and he INSISTED that he was right..:eyes:

We would also work with him on his homework, he would have it DONE, and yet would NOT turn it in..

By the time he was 12 he was almost 6 ft tall and wore grown up sizes.. I begged the school district to hold him back, but they would not.. They just kept advancing him, and consequently he eventually fell hopelessly behind. The tutors were "stupid" and he didn't "need" them.. My husband would drop him off at school, watch him enter the building, and by 10 AM I would get an automated call saying that he was "absent"..

It's no wonder I had a "nervous breakdown" and my hair is mostly gray :)

I do have hope for him, and he has been drug-free and employed for 7 years, so things are a lot better than when he was young..

[WoodrowFan]

165. Many sociopaths can harness their talents, and become lawyers, doctors, te

not to mention Presidents and Congressmen.

[AngryAmish]

170. Larry Summers alert

One must never speak of sexual brain chemistry differences. Silence must be enforced. I'm surprised no one has alerted on you yet.

[Carni]

113. Yes that *soldier* business caught my ear too

I think she's lying--why she's lying or exactly what she is lying about I have no clue but her story sounds like BS IMO

[LisaL]

34. The guy in Wisconsin had no trouble with the law

whatsoever. Yet, one day he killed 7 people for no apparent reason. The BTK killer was a respected member of his community, and did his serial killings on the side. Nichols at least had some minor problems with the law. He was was on trial for kidnapping and rape. If you gonna think that every killer and rapist has a brain tumor, you would be sadly disappointed.

[MADem]

137. Who here says EVERY killer/rapist has a brain tumor?

I simply indicated that this PARTICULAR guy has NO HISTORY of violence or antisocial behavior whatsoever. Something happened to him that changed his personality. And even his ex-girlfriend, the one he raped, kidnapped, and brutalized, backs that up. She said he was never mean or violent or cruel.

Then, one day, he gets into a dustup with the cops at a traffic stop, shortly thereafter he kidnaps and rapes his ex-girlfriend, and two trials later, he's shooting people.

But this is no gangsta--this is Beaver Cleaver, grown up and post-college. Often, people can "see it coming." In this case, the whole thing came down out of the blue.

[LisaL]

141. And like I said, the guy in Wisconsin had no

trouble with the law of any kind, and was raising vegetables in his free time. Then, one day-boom, he kills 7 people. Nobody saw it coming either, and the police can't even figure out the motive. People just do senseless things for whatever reason.

[MADem]

145. I heard people on the cables saying that the Wisconsin shooter

...was "profoundly depressed."

[FreedomAngel82]

99. From this story

it sounds like they are trying to make him out to be a poor guy and she helped him. I think he probably knew he was going to jail after his next trial so he just popped and everything happened. He was so scared and stressed out whether he was guilty or not he knew he was screwed.

[LisaL]

61. LOL. He is from a good family and went to private school.

Worst from what society has to offer? I don't think so.
:eyes:

[Vadem]

115. No, he had a very loving mother, according to reports.....this cooking

pancakes and bacon for him just doesn't hit it!

[MADem]

138. I think the reference to hominess, the cooking, the shower, etc.

...had to do with the fact that this guy was not bailed. He's been in the county jail for quite some time, since before the first mistrial, and on through this second one. He clearly hasn't had anyone cooking him homemade pancakes in quite some time.

[clintonlover]

201. this guy had a college degree, middle-class and his parents were diplomats

[FreedomAngel82]

98. Interesting

So if he was so dangerous why did she make him pancakes? If I knew this guy was wanted I would've called 911 right away when I first saw him. Not make him pancakes and tell him Bible stories.

[zann725]

151. Yeah, and that made the story even more 'syrup-y' than it was before.

ENOUGH! Wake up people, don't drink the MSM "kool-aide."

[SoCalDem]

5. You are not alone in your thoughts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3274788

[LisaL]

6. I think the story is legit. I also thought it was pretty weird at parts,

especially when she followed him in her car but then they both returned to the apartment. And who in their right mind goes to the store in the middle of the night, especially if you are a single woman? But I think when people are taken hostage, there is something weird going on with their heads, so they might act strange.

[MADem]

19. She had just moved in two days before, and needed CIGARETTES

There was probably a convenience store nearby.

[LisaL]

31. Well, she didn't know the neighborhood, and went to the store

at 2 am in the morning? She saw a man she didn't know parked in a truck, in the middle of the night, and parked next to him? Not very smart, to say the least. She was asking for trouble, I would say, and she clearly got it. She is lucky to be alive today.

[Arkansas Granny]

24. I haven't read or heard it all

but I also wondered why she would follow him in her car. Why not make a break then?

As far as going to the store in the middle of the night, I can buy that. Stores are open all night and if you have been a single woman for very long, you get over needing someone to go with you or for you if you need something at an inconvenient time.

[LisaL]

32. I buy that too. I just say it was dumb and asking for trouble.

[amazona]

49. because she is LYING mark my words

Watch and wait.

We're going to find out in a few weeks that these two, hmmm, already did know each other, and it wasn't just some weird coinkidink that they ran into each other in a parking lot in the middle of the night.]

This woman is into some bad stuff. Her husband was shot dead. She has many other problems. So I'm supposed to believe she's all sweetness and light and followed an unknown man home in her OWN car to cook him pancakes when she had a cell phone on her?

Nuh uh. They've got to make these lies at least a little plausible.

If she hadn't come out swinging with the Jeebus horse-hockey, she'd already be in jail as accessory after the fact. Period. End of message.

There is a double standard in this country, and I'm sick of it!

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[LisaL]

63. Accessory after the fact? LOL.

What did she do-she turned him in. While he was with her, he did not kill anyone. What would she be the accessory to? She is the one who called 911 on him. In fact, police had absolutely no leads before she called them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

80. "Jeebus Horse-Hockey"

Wow, you're such a tolerant liberal.

:eyes:

DTH

[MADem]

139. I heard that her husband was stabbed to death...n/t

[displacedtexan]

7. I figured she just got lucky and made up the rest.

No one will believe anything that Nichols says.

As long as his lawyer thinks s/he can use this woman's story (truthful or not) to keep Nichols off death row (or get him psych services), we may never know what actually happened.

[CoffeeCat]

8. I agree...

I posted my thoughts about this in another thread.

I do not buy her story. I have nothing but my intuition, on which to go. I just get the feeling that her entire story is cooked.

I don't know WHY I feel this way. I just do.

I didn't believe her. I got a "programmed" feel from her.

I listened to her entire story. It's a long story, so there are going to be inconsistencies and other quirks. Those didn't bother me. It's her entire presentation.

One thing that didn't make sense to me--was that she didn't escape when she was in her own car, following him when he was driving the stolen car. She could have easily escaped. I have a five year old girl. I can't imagine not taking off and getting myself to a safe place. As a mother--the only thing I would be thinking about is surviving--for myself and to make it back to my child. Ashley said she followed him in her car and went back to her apt with him again--because she feared "he would hurt someone else." That's noble and very unselfish. However, I have a difficult time digesting the fact that she put her own safety and the needs of her little girl below her concern that some stranger would be hurt. I don't know...maybe the Stockholm Syndrome all ready took root. Maybe she was paralyzed. It just sounds a bit off.

Again, my problem was with her entire presentation.

It feels like she's playing a part.

[LisaL]

14. People do very weird things when they are kidnapped.

She wouldn't be the first with many chances to escape but not doing it.
I mean, Elizabeth Smart was trotting after Emmanuel for a year. At least Ashley called the police the next morning.

[CoffeeCat]

25. I agree with you...

...that kidnap victims will comply. They're so terrified, and it appears that they're going along when they're really not.

I'm really not too entrenched in my feelings about this. I just have this odd feeling about her story. Not sure why!

You're right about Elizabeth Smart. When the police discovered her, she denied her own identity and did not want to go with them. Maybe some of that traumatic compliance kicks in very quickly. Ashley hadn't even been kidnapped for 24 hours--and she was a grown woman in her own car with a cell phone. I see some differences between Ashley and Smart--who was a child at the time of her abduction.

What's giving me these pangs--is her entire presentation.

Another poster suggested that she may be on drugs--due to the trauma of losing her husband. Maybe that's why I feel like her responses and her story are artificial. Who knows.

[LisaL]

30. But she called the police the next morning. She and Nichols

didn't go on the run together. Nichols also didn't kill anyone while he had her hostage. What would she be making up? That she didn't read to him from the bible? LOL.
I don't think there is any evidence she knew Nichols before this.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CoffeeCat]

41. Your statement is revolting...

You're actually suggesting that Elizabeth Smart enjoyed being raped by a scroungy, filthy rat who abducted her from her home?

I think Ashley's story is shaky, but my opinions have nothing to do with the sick notions you are suggesting.

You sound like a pedophile. Pedophiles often get all twisted up in these "children enjoy sex too" arguments--when the point is irrelevant and ridiculous.

[H2O Man]

51. You are correct, TwoSparkles.

That post is one of the sickest, most insensitive things I have ever read. In any crime, we should not blame the victim. This is especially true in the case of a sexual offense against a child. The only other place where I have heard as grossly offensive of a statement as that one was in staff when coworkers discussed the grossest shits in sex offenders' group.

[Riding this Donkey]

60. This is absolutely the sickest post .......You seriously need some

help buddy!

Take this elsewhere please! I will remember your screen name and remember this post and want to puke everytime I see you post from here on out.

Get the fuck out of here!

[H2O Man]

88. That was the single

most disgusting post I have ever seen on DU. I am glad that the moderators took it off.

[Riding this Donkey]

89. I will agree with you on that. I can't believe some one would actually

post that shit.

It was gross, disgusting and unforgivable. I think he/she should be tombstoned.

[mordarlar]

158. Is it ok to ask the name of the deleted poster. I prefer to have no....

interactions with people who would elicit such a response. I am SO SICK of pedophilia excuse. There is NO EXCUSE.

[SoCalDem]

93. damn.. I always miss those posts..

:(

[H2O Man]

96. Be happy you did.

Few things offend me. This was an indicator of an extremely disturbed person.

[MADem]

27. The little girl does not live with her, for what that is worth

She lives with "relatives."

I'm interested though, in how her husband was stabbed to death.

[skip fox]

29. Brawl in parking lot of apartments. Never solved.

Sure . . . it can all be true. Heck, I'd even like it if it were (if I didn't think some sh*theads would use it for ratings and support of a political side), but . . . as others said . . . something smells funny. "Intuition," they say; I like that.

[KyndCulture]

10. Yep! and if I hear the pancake story one more time I'm gonna gag

[ohio_liberal]

47. Hehe

I keep thinking of that Chapelle skit with Prince and Charlie Murphy. :D

[CoffeeCat]

52. Real butter and pancake syrup, Eddie?....

...Nothing but the best, Clark!

/bad sense of humor off

[skip fox]

11. It's not that I believe she wasn't heroic or doesn't deserve the reward,

but the story seems cooked. And now she's nearly in tears trying to get out of the reporters' lights (afraid they'll start asking some real questions?).

Some reports have her following Nichols in her car with a cell phone and not using it. If she's totally aware of the situation and his recent shootings, is she SO Christian that she'll obey him not to call? Or is she too afraid? What?

Like I said, some hard questions should be asked. But then reporters like a Hollywood story (and it might be just that!, just as she related it), but . . .

[SoCalDem]

35. Be on "Allred Watch".. If we see Gloria skulking around

getting her make-overs and new hairdos, we'll all KNOW something's up :)

[DemBones DemBones]

104. That's the truth! Though Gloria must

have some honest clients, I suppose.

[Binka]

157. NO Gloria Is Scum And So Are Her Clients

She was my exs attorney 20 years ago. I had post traumatic for years after dealing with that fucking witch.

I still want to fucking kick her ass. I mean girl to girl in the fucking street and I don't pull hair or bite I fucking PUNCH!

[FreedomAngel82]

175. It is strange she doesn't want to talk anymore

She seemed to be enjoying eating the press a live talking to every single network out there and playing "helpless victim" so to speak. I just wonder what's up with that. Why now she doesn't want to talk. I think you might be right. She'll say something like she's tired of all the press and needs to spend time with her family and daughter (even though her daughter lives with relatives). Why doesn't her daughter live with her? How long has it been since her husband died and her child living with her relatives? I understand taking some time for yourself after something like that to get your life in order but if that was me and I had a sitution like that I'd want my daughter to be with me and us get our lives back on track.

[SmileMaker]

12. Yes, I watched most of press conference and it set

off some of my intuitive alarms. I can't put a finger on it, but the God stuff/Purpose Driven Life just seemed too perfect. Also, think of the timing of the 'manhunt'. This story, MJ trial and church shooting all took some filthy Bush scandals off of the headlines.

Even though I am not a typically religious person, I've had some amazing 'coincidental experiences' in my peace activism that were described by ministers as providence, yet felt like magic to me. I think when you do good things and work towards positive change with people who have survived hardship, things that appear to be miracles can happen if you are paying attention closely enough to notice.

I liked the analyst that Olbermann had on last night. If the story helps to make us all more empathic, and leads America towards a path of REAL compassion it may, indeed, be a gift from God.

[FreedomAngel82]

177. Something I noticed when watching

her is she seems to have this "motionless" just going through it type of thing. To me it seemed like she was like: "yeah just another interview. Let's get this over with." Wouldn't she be glowing in her face and in her eyes? She just helped this man and did a wonderful deed. I don't know. Call me skeptical.

[hiley]

16. At first I was feeling

well okay, believable and then seeing all the "clips" with Hannity it then left me going hmm !
Just don't know about her.
Very strange to me .


But thanks to the Religious Right I am cynical as hell now.

[skip fox]

17. Lovely ful story posted by SoCalDem here:

A Manhunt and a Woman's Story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35137-20...

Hostage Says She Appealed To Suspect's Spiritual Side

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 15, 2005; Page A01

[tom_paine]

20. Just like the Jessica Lynch or Saddam's Capture phony stories

the Busheviks care only about getting the propaganda out and inncoulated into the minds of the Imperial Subjects.

they know that whispered retractions can come later, and they know such retractions will NEVER be discussed on Corporate TV Pravda, unless said retraction can make the Imperial Party look good or discredit Enemies of the State.

This piece of Bushevik Pravda same as all the others.

[FreedomAngel82]

179. Something I just thought about

This is definietly a tinfoil hat moment here, but what if the Bush administration set this all up? I know I know. Call me super paranoid but nothing would surprise me these days. They're not getting anything done and need some type of distraction. They can't have another terror attack because it would be too obvious. Why else would this story get so much coverage and not the one in Wisconsin?? Of course this story does deal with the Christian angle and they can promote this as God's will and the media is so pro-rightwing (of course) and all that. Okay I can take off the tinfoil hat now. :tinfoilhat:

[skip fox]

22. Maybe this story is about poor reporting currently--

I mean, it doesn't matter that much. (NOT like some terrible cases of ineptitude! New Yokr Times with WMDs, etc.)

But it might be indicative of poor reporting. Here, reporters become enamored with a story they want to hear ("It sounds just like Hollywood!) and then shutting down all critical faculties, pointing to the unprofessional journalism in our time.


My two cents.

[Hugin]

23. Daaaang... This story would be a good place for a Stick-Up(tm). n/t

[skip fox]

28. Felling better already.

:toast:

[tx_dem41]

36. Why does every story have to have some political slant to it...

that we feel like we have to bash away at?

[skip fox]

46. That's NOT why I brought it up.

I didn't even know it had a political slant until this a.m., but was uneasy with the story and shocked by lack of scrutiny.

[KamaAina]

57. Ask Faux News

they were the ones who rushed to plaster the face of a mean-looking African American criminal all over their website. All they were missing was Michael Dukakis granting him a furlough.

[tx_dem41]

64. The OP didn't address that issue, or I might have brought that up.

The OP did mention the religion of the woman though. My post was in response to the specific points brought up in the OP.

[concord]

39. I was in disbelief after she'd spoken a couple of sentences

Like others, it's a gut feeling. I haven't been paying too much attention to this story, but did catch some of her initial press conference. Within a minute, I *felt* like it was all a set-up. I concede that my cynicism has colored my view of the world of late, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but her story is just too, I don't know ... preachy?

And the fact that Hannity was all over it didn't help her credibility IMO.

[MsTryska]

42. Funny you say that....

i overheard my coworker saying the same thing today - and she's a black Atlanta native - so she knows how this city works. it didn't jibe with ehr too. She thought maybe they know each other.


makese sense too, because you don't jsut roll up into an Apartment complex looking for someone to help you go ont he lam, and if you're a black man in the South, i'm thinking a good-looking white woman is gonna be your last resort.

[amazona]

43. yeah she sounds like an accessory to me

There's something wrong with the story. I hope they get to the bottom of this. Let's see, she was in her OWN car with a cell phone, and he was in the OTHER car after killing the customs agent, and she decides to follow him home and make him pancakes.

This woman is almost certainly an accessory and not some random "hostage," as she wasn't a hostage at all.

If you or I did the exact same thing, we'd be in jail right damn now.

No excuse, none, for not immediately informing the police of the murder of the customs agent -- she knew Nichols was driving the murdered man's car!

But we're going to give this woman a pass because she's a sociopath with a quick story?

This is completely completely unfair. Can you imagine what would happen to an atheist or a Wiccan who chose to fix pancakes and read to a killer instead of calling the law? The ripe odor of hypocrisy is really getting raw in here.

I can't believe people are calling this woman "courageous." No way I believe these two never met before. I don't risk my life and my freedom to get all snuggly and pancake cooking for some killer I never met until that very day.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[FreedomAngel82]

180. Someone stated that

she had a man's shirt in her house so she was seeing someone. I wonder if her family and relatives that had her daughter knew about this guy. He was also seeing someone new but nobody mentioned much about her. It's really convenent she was out at two am for cigs.

[tx_dem41]

44. I think its become political...with the posting...

of this thread. No?

[skip fox]

50. It's a question of intent. Many of us here

disbelieve because of a gut reaction. It's one I had long before I knew that it would fall into the political arena.

[Tomee450]

68. At first I

thought that she was a very courageous woman. As I started seeing clips of her interviews, I began to wonder. Something just does not feel right.

[FreedomAngel82]

181. This is about politics?

Obviously not following along very well are you? This does have to do with politics when mentioning the Bush administration and whatnot but I don't care if she's a right-winger or not. That shouldn't matter. I'd wonder the same thing if she was a wiccan or pagan leftwinger.

[bmbmd]

45. Could it be that she is what she says she is

an humble, caring, loving sweet-natured child of God who responded the way she felt she should. WWJD, indeed-I'd like to think I would behave the same way. Clearly, her actions brought a peaceful resolution to the crisis. Sometimes this board is so full of rancor that we are blind to what is before our very nose-this is a wonderful person who has had some horrible experiences in her life, made some huge mistakes, and has acted brilliantly and heroically in this situation. Let her be-let her enjoy her sixty grand reward money and the millions she is sure to earn now by selling her story. I'll read it.

[amazona]

53. I like to think I would obey the law not harbor a fugitive for CASH

Harboring a fugitive is a crime. Harboring a murderer is accessory after the fact to murder.

The fact remains that she was NOT a hostage. She got in her OWN car with her OWN cell phone and followed him back to let him into her apartment where she read to him and fixed him pancakes and did who knows what all.

I don't know what Jesus would do, but it wouldn't be that, sorry. That is a criminal offense and should be prosecuted as such. And it would be if she wasn't such a slick sociopath with the right B.S. rolling off her tongue.

Angry, yes, I am. If it was a woman in California baking cookies for a damn killer, we'd be hearing about "Marin County" values for the next 6 weeks. Instead, because it's a redneck woman in Georgia flippipng pancakes, it's somehow cute.

Unfairness angers me, sorry.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Beaverhausen]

65. She said she stayed with him so he wouldn't go out and kill anyone else

I can NOT believe what some of you are saying here.

How can you judge what she did when you don't know her and you weren't there?

How do you know how you would have reacted?

[LisaL]

67. Exactly.

And it ended well. She probably saved people's lives by doing what she did.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. I Have Nothing But Praise for Ashley Smith

Good for her!

DTH

[LisaL]

66. She did not harbor a fugitive. She turned the fugitive in.

Hostages do much weirder staff sometimes, than follow their kidnapper in a car. She didn't go on the run with him, he didn't kill anyone while he was with her. She likely saved people's lives, and you want her charged?

[FreedomAngel82]

182. She didn't harbor him??

What do you call baking him pancakes? He probably had a nice shower too.
That's harboring, is it not? And reading him Bible stories. And whoever said if she was a native of California is right. If she was she would be an immoral out of touch with reality democrat. Go figure!

[Beaverhausen]

204. He didn't kill anyone while he was with her, and he turned himself in

after being with her.

She didn't "harbor" him...she got him to a place where he surrendered.

[concord]

54. I had this feeling BEFORE I read anything about it here

It doesn't *feel* right. Has nothing to do with DU, other than the possibility that being aware of all the crap that's going on today has made it difficult to see the truth in something that's just a little too perfect ....

[skip fox]

55. Most of us don't grudge the outcome or the reward, but find

the story odd and feel it perhaps points to the unprofessionalism of journalism. Do we want the real story or not? Even if it doesn't suggest a movie script? That's my point. Give her the bucks, but I've been involved in cases of crappy journalism on much more impt matters (Starr gaining authority to investigate the Lewinsky affair based on the 3-page document that was published by 6 major news organizations--NYTimes, WAPost. ABC.com, Newsweek, etc.--but there were three versions of the text! And the text was NOT written by the "president's men," etc., and was NOT a smoking gun . . . it took us 7 months, but we got on Burden of Proof, and had columns written about us by Oliphant, Conoson, Lyons, and others).

What I'm saying is that good reporting matters and that bad reporting (and this appears to be a candidate) can be extraordinarily damaging. (It lead to the impeachment of Clinton, in fact, and to invasion of Iraq which didn't have WMDs--for which NTTimes apologized not questioning harder.)

That's why it matters to me. If accurate, fine. If inaccurate, then it's symptomatic of a major cultural blindspot.

I have no rancor for the woman at all.

[Vinca]

58. The interview I heard was that he accosted her at her apartment complex

and threatened her with a knife. I got the impression - from the interview with her - that she just happened to make a real connection with the guy and was lucky enough to live to tell the tale. It makes sense to me. If you were aware of the killings and found yourself in that predicament, you'd pretty much assume you were toast and that you would have nothing to lose by saying anything. As it happened, she touched whatever soul he might have and probably saved more lives by calling 911. I'm not big on the Christian angle . . . any person with a modicum of goodness about them might have reached this guy. The whole story is sad from beginning to end.

[Blue_In_AK]

85. Making a connection with people can work...

I say this from experience. Back in the early '70s I used to hitchhike quite a bit, and one afternoon I was picked up by a couple of "gentlemen," one of whom was, I believe, very intent on raping me -- at least he made some very unsavory comments that got me pretty nervous. Believe me, I started talking ... and fast ... but in a nonthreatening and "connecting" sort of way. By the time, they ultimately let me out of the car, he was showing me pictures of his wife and grandchildren! Who knows what would have happened if I had taken a different approach and gotten all kung-fu on him or whatever? It's not too hard for me to believe that Ms. Smith's encounter happened pretty much as she said. I think it's the media coverage we all really have a problem with.

[mtnsnake]

59. From the first time I heard her, I thought something wasn't quite right in

the state of Denmark.

Like many others here, it's just a feeling, but a strong one. She's way too scripted or something. Besides, any nut who's just murdered 3 people so cold bloodedly, isn't about to be so moved by Ashley Smith reading from the Good Book. Gimme a break.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

69. WOW

Look at all the EXPERTS on this thread who all have a PHD in psychology. Appears to be several clairvoyants too who know what Ashley and Nichols were really thinking and doing. I'm impressed.

[SoCalDem]

74. You should be

and we don't even charge $150 an hour :P

[skip fox]

77. Perhaps we sould be uncritical consumers of the news?

I dislike knee-jerk cynicism as well, but our reporters should scrutinize a story and when they don't . . . and when our alarms go off . . . Well, what SHOULD we do?

:toast:

[skip fox]

71. Few of us feel she's in any way to blame. The reporting's the question.

At least for me that's the "big picture."

We needn't even take sides except that most of us would agree that the press needs to be more skeptical of everything. Otherwise, all we'll have is soundbites on Faux.

:toast:

[efhmc]

75. Her entire demeanor seemed odd to me when she was being

interviewed. I am inclined to agree with you.

[LisaL]

79. Demeanor? Feeling?

I don't think that's going to cut it.
No good deed should go un-punished?

[tx_dem41]

81. Obviously...

that's today's lesson on DU.

[skip fox]

83. Perhaps we might alternately say: "All news should be reported."

:toast:

[Beaverhausen]

78. so please tell us what you really think happened?

What bizarre scenario can you come up with?

oh wait...:tinfoilhat:

[skip fox]

82. One need not have an alternate scenario in order to interrogate the one

at hand. At least that's my feeling and I wish (as do many here) that reporters would agree.

:toast:

[LisaL]

92. You can't interrogate someone if you haven't got a shred

of evidence this person did something wrong. Gut feeling that something isn't right ain't gonna cut it.

[merci_me]

91. I don't know Atlanta...so just asking

I'd like some explanation as to where her apartment is in relation to where Nichols asked the Atlanta newspaper reporter for directions to.

I'd like to learn why he wanted to go to a specific location and had to ask how to get there. I mean, if I was in downtown Houston and needed to get to a general area, 8 miles away, I'd pretty much know how to start heading there, rather than leave a major clue. If I asked directions, it would be someplace altogether different than where I was going. Since he was in the downtown area, and I believe it was reported that the area he was asking about was only 8 miles away, why didn't he know how to get there? If it was to get to someone he knew, wouldn't he already be familiar with the area? Unless (and I'm just mulling things here) the person he was trying to reach, wasn't yet living in that area, before he went to prison.

I truly want to believe her and I almost do, but the idea that she just moved there and the idea that he asked directions to someplace he evidently didn't know for sure where it was.......I just can't get that out of my mind. Maybe because I've never heard in the media, is that apartment complex actually in the area he asked directions to, or maybe it was just fate.

[MsTryska]

100. excellent question.

for the most part around here people stick to their side of town. there are very few places south east or even northeast of Atlanta that i know.


but i really didn't catch all the details in the case - where did he ask directions too? Gwinnett? or Buckhead. if it was Buckhead - that's very strange because even i know how to get from downtown to buckhead. Gwinnett is another story - i jsut know it's vaguely up 85 north.

[merci_me]

103. I just checked a map to see

if I recognized the names I heard. I see there's a Phipps Plaza/Lenox Square area and I recall the mention of Lenox and also Peachtree. Is that about 8 miles from downtown? I do recall them saying it was a large rather upscale mall/shopping area that covered several blocks. I recall that, because in my mind I was equating it with Houston's Galleria area, as I listened to them.

At anyrate the description made me wonder why an Atlantan would need to ask directions and I felt it was probably a red herring. But is that indeed the area where he ended up?

Since posting, I saw she worked at a nice seafood sportsbar. Being that he worked a professional job and was a college football player, I wonder if he knew her from her work and they had a casual friendly relationship. My daughter is a waitress and had a lot of regular customers she chats with. Maybe she mentioned moving soon and he thought she would be someone he could trust (like my daughter the heart of gold gal) and he headed that way, figuring no one would guess.

Then maybe later, when he knew hope was gone for him, some bit of remorse made him feel that the reward should go to someone like her, whose husband had been murdered and who was trying to get her and her daughter's life in order. So they worked out a plan, way after the fact that he did what he did.

My theory doesn't at all suggest she was "abetting". Just that maybe some parts of the story are a bit cooked, but who cares? If she knew him or not, she showed amazing bravery. She's had her own tragedy and if this whole horrible event can lead to something good for her and her child, I certainly don't begrudge her anything. Had she reacted differently, she could be dead now, along with who knows how many others.

[H2O Man]

106. When he asked directions

it was to find a terminal for public transportation where he could (and did) blend in the crowd. It was not to head towards the woman's apartment.

[LisaL]

111. dupe

[H2O Man]

114. It should not be assumed

that he was familiar with the area around the court, to an extent that he would be oriented as to direction. He may very well have known the terminal in question, or it seems very unlikely he would have asked directions to it. Remember, he didn't ask, "Where is the nearest train station?" He asked for directions from a car port to a specific public transportation terminal.

[LisaL]

112. But why there? Wouldn't he go somewhere he actually knew

how to get to?

[FreedomAngel82]

184. I agree with you

If I was in his shoe's that's what I'd do. Go somewhere I knew I could get to very quickly and hide out until I could make plans to head out of town.

[LisaL]

108. Sorry, I don't get your logic.

Lying to the police to get a reward would be a crime. Yet, you think if your theory is true, she wasn't abetting?
:eyes:
If she knew him from before, it would obviously be a major lie on her part. Never mind the pain and suffering I underwent every time she mentioned how she changed him by reading to him or making him pancakes. Not that there is a shred of evidence to suggest she knew him.

[merci_me]

118. Basically, what I'm saying

is that I don't think she ever had a clue he would be showing up at her apartment.

I think (if my theory holds water) that he showed up and did most all of what she said. Then at some point, during their talking, she convinced him to give up. Then it was planned how this could happen, without ever divulging the fact that they had met in the past and he was seeking her out. Remember, I think she was a victim in this whole thing, too. I'm not saying none of what she said happened didn't happen, except for the fact that I think she knew him and had a gut feeling that she could connect with him on some level.

So, I don't care if his brother or next door neighbor played along for some hours before calling the police. It's not as though he took his guns and her car and left and she gave him a seven hour head start before calling the police. She called them, while she knew right where he was and during the time he was with her, no one but she was in any danger. The reward goes to the person who gives the TIP that leads to him. They and their motives don't have to be pure as the driven snow, just give the tip that delivers!

If she had called while following him in her car, remember he had the truck and could have gotten into a police chase and another shoot out. He could still be running and murdering today.

Unlike some, my suspicions about the whole story are based on the story, not based on her religious beliefs!! I'm bothered by how some will use that to push their own beliefs, but I'm just as bothered by those who will use it to push their own NON-beliefs.

[LisaL]

122. Sorry, it doesn't make sense.

She had just moved to that apartment 2 days ago. How would he know where she lived, even if they knew each other? There is no way he could have shown up there, and her not knowing he was coming, if they knew each other. Furthermore, there would be no reason for her to lie if she knew him to get the reward-the rewards are given to family members and friends all the time.

[merci_me]

127. I have four adult children

who have moved over their early adult years and they always knew where they were moving at least a full month, even two, before moving. First they found an apartment complex, signed a lease, turned in their notice at the current apartment, yada, yada. Their friends and co-workers often knew the complex, maybe not the apartment number, weeks before the move.

One of the reasons I said, IF they knew each other, IF she had mentioned at work that she was looking at a certain complex, etc., he might have asked someone how to get to the general location.

AGAIN, this is all just a theory that has crossed my mind. AND, I find nothing wrong with Ashley Smith. It's just that I have a mild feeling there is "something" slightly askew.

[LisaL]

130. And it just happened she went to the store at 2 am in the

morning? When he was around looking for her in her new apartment? Which he knew about even though he was in prison? Sorry, if she knew him, then everything would be a lie-she had to let him into the apartment, no?
I don't think she knew him, and there is no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.
But if she did, then it would obviously be a major lie.

[merci_me]

135. She does work at

a restaurant/sportsbar and it was a Friday night. Maybe she had just come home from work.

Also, I've been known to make a grocery run for chocolate after midnight, so I don't discount that part of the story.

Maybe he was parked there because he recognized her car. IF HE KNEW HER, which I don't know. I've only been adding my thoughts here, because the story in it's entirety doesn't totally jibe with me, BUT I also don't think she is what many others here say.

My last comment on this.....I think the fact that she got through alive and no one else died is all anyone could possibly ask of her.

[MADem]

143. I've moved all over the world

...literally, all over the world. Middle east, Europe, Asia, US. More times than not, I've found a place inside of DAYS, with no advance work or planning on my part, beyond getting to a hotel and hunting like hell.

I think the woman was still in shock when she gave that first interview. In her second statement, outside her home, she was very emotional, near tears, read her statement, basically said leave me alone, and took no questions.

[FreedomAngel82]

185. Where did she live before?

Did they mention where she was before? Did she just move to Atlanta in general or just that apartment??

[MADem]

142. The reporter that he decked said that there was some sort of

...sports event going on, which is why he did not think it unusual that the guy drove into the parking lot (from the first car he stole) without a shirt--he figured the guy was going to the venue, and was a fan of the sports event.

[LisaL]

109. He asked directions to Lenox, I think.

The murdered customs agent lived very close to Lenox.

[FreedomAngel82]

183. I'm with you on that

I've been living in my town since 1987 and I STILL don't know all how to get to without asking for directions (getting turned around and all that). I just don't go out of my area unless I have to for some reason (no reason for me to be on other areas anyways). Something I'm wondering on the guy with the new woman. Does anybody know how long he was with her before trying to "rape" his ex? (I only put rape in quotes because we don't know for sure)

[carpe diem]

94. this thread is one of the more incredible things i've read...

...since i've been on DU...i think some of you may be reacting negatively to this woman because the pseudo christian rw media is co-opting her and this story to exploit for political purposes...that is obvious and i hope she sees thru it and does not allow herself to be used by these people for that purpose...however, she's not really saying anything right now and in the vacuum, the talk-radio-foxnews machinery is in full propaganda mode...they can hide behind this young woman who i think is sincere and gob her genuineness off onto themselves since they have none of their on...they are sinking their teeth into this woman's neck and sucking the blood and some of the reaction on this board plays right into their hands..."see the Godless, Christ hating liberals are mocking this brave young woman!"...what did she do wrong?...the man was a fugitive from justice and she got him to turn himself in peacefully, w/out hurting anyone else or getting himself killed...just because you and i may have pissed our pants and let the chips fall where they may as long as we got out alive doesn't mean that the grace to rise to the moment doesn't exist....and those of us who irrationally resent "the south" and religion right now because of the current political climate are playing right into the divide and conquer strategy of the right wing...i think the suspicion and almost hostile reaction to this lady is coming from resentment and is probably unfair and unwarranted by what we know at this point...

[MsTryska]

101. I think it has less to d with her Christian-ness as it does with

intuition.


being a citizen of Atlanta, i'm having a tought time buying the pious act. the girl has a rough look to her, and combine the 2 am cigarette walk with the god stuff, with the black roots, and the fairly fashionable blazers she's been wearing - and my gut says stripper or ex-stripper, in recovery.

especially when you factor in that her kid doesn't live with her, and the husband lost to a knife-fight.

it's all jsut too street to me.

now maybe the street worked in her favor when this guy showed up on her doorstep, but maybe they already knew each other.

personally - a couple of things i will say:

I'm pretty street-smart, and know my way around the ghettos of America. I may go out to the store at 2 am, with my keys in my hand ready to use as a weapon, but if there's some dude in a truck parked in front of my door, i'm not hanging around. let alone crossing paths.

[carpe diem]

105. none of the stuff you mentioned...

is relevant to the merits of her story...in fact, that is what makes her more appealing...she is not coming across as pious, she comes across as real if somewhat naive(sp?)...many of us hair-dying, blazer wearing street types are believers in a higher power...a lot more people relate to her somwhat checkered background than don't...if she was pure as the driven snow she would be intimidating and most REAL people would be put off by it...

[MsTryska]

172. Well I sorta agree....

IF in fact the story did happen jsut as it's being stated, Then kudos to her for doing exactly as Jesus asked in Ezekiel. I’m just having a tough time believing it went down exactly like that.

[ultraist]

121. LOL!

I noticed her black roots,home hair dye job, over plucked eyebrows, cheap knock off blazers and fake Louis Vitton purse too. Her appearance and previous shady background coupled with her "born again" Christianity makes me suspicious. Oh! And the fact she doesn't have custody of her daughter. She may have lost custody but they are not reporting that.

We are not getting all of the facts on this girl, just the "Christian hero" version.

I think she may have known him and that's why he went to her apt, to figure out what he was going to do, to eat and sleep.

IF he is a sociopath, which without more about his background it's impossible to say, the idea that she "connected" with him, or that he was empathetic to her because she had a daughter, don't jive. Sociopaths are not empathetic nor are they capable of emotionally connecting with people. Most sociopaths exhibit antisocial behaviors early in life, it doesn't just onset at 40, out of the blue. They are BORN with it.

Her story just doesn't add up.

[bmbmd]

132. The prostitute Rahab is one of the great

heroines of the Old Testament(Joshua 2). Mary Magdalene was a woman of ill repute. Gideon was a wimp and a farmer, David was a shepherd boy. People like them, and like this girl, are the stuff of which the work of God is done.

[ultraist]

140. I'm not a Christian, that means nothing to me

[gauguin57]

154. YO! Many biblical scholars now think Mary Magdalene was NOT ...

...a woman of ill repute, and may have even been Jesus' head disciple and an early leader in the Christian church. A gospel of Mary has been found, which some believe may have been written by Magdalene.

Her "woman of ill repute" reputation is a result of centuries of church patriarchical bullshit / coverup. Through literature/oral history, they turned her INTO a woman of ill repute -- in a church where women aren't allowed to hold positions of authority, her church leadership would have been too radical and threatening!

[bmbmd]

164. Thank you for correcting

two thousand years of scripture tradition and scholarship.

[gauguin57]

176. I didn't "correct" it. Biblical scholars

have been "correcting" it for years now.

[FreedomAngel82]

187. I'm with you

I just think Mary was a leader and all that. I have heard and read that she wrote a book but it was left out of the Bible we know today for various reasons (her being a woman and whatever is written there). If it was shown she was a big part of Christianity (like the female Paul) the whole macho man stuff wouldn't be too upheld and women could say they could really be preachers in churches and whatnot and a lot of old-fashioned churches (like mine) wouldn't have that.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

144. I'll bet there are religious strippers here and there, why not? n/t

[checks-n-balances]

102. Besides that, just how critical should the press have been to this woman

who may have been killed? Should they have asked her grilling and harassing questions, after she had been through what sounds like a harrowing situation? Would it be better for the press to err on the side of believing her story or skeptically giving her the third degree when he was clearly the criminal in this situation?

The man KILLED THREE PEOPLE, but some of you sound like you're mad as hell at her! As far as I'm concerned, she's innocent until proven guilty.

The ways that we have all been ill-served by the current state of journalism are legion, but if we're going to go after them for not doing their jobs, let's not get sidetracked by stories like this. That's kinda like getting "off message". This country is turning into a fascist state with the aid of a compliant media. Let's hold them accountable for THAT and not get sidetracked by this story.

I'm rambling now, but suffice it to say that I agree with jg82567. And as a resident of a nearby North Atlanta suburb, I'm grateful that she had her wits about her to help things end as they did - with nobody else killed and the perpetrator behind bars.

[FreedomAngel82]

188. Isn't that

what the investigators are supposed to do? Where are they? Why aren't they checking this "official story" out?

[FreedomAngel82]

186. You are very wrong Jg

I am a Christian thank you very much. I'm against her because she's Christian?! LOL!!! This story smells like fishsticks like totally.

[FreedomAngel82]

97. I haven't been hearing it lately

so I think the story is just a dead issue personally. I could care less really. *shrug*

[allalone]

116. this story stunk from the get-go

claimed he tied her up and threw her in the bathtub and then what? untied her so she could pancakes? She is supoosed to be a single mom. Where was her kid? 2 different ways she escaped. oh please. I wonder how long they've known each other.

[LisaL]

117. The kid doesn't live with her, she is being raised by an aunt.

She only escaped one way-he let her go to see her daughter.

[ultraist]

131. And she just happened to be going out for smokes at 2 am...mmmhhhmm

The MOMENT he showed up at her place?

She seemed very nervous today during her press conference and said she is "helping" with the investigation. They are still interviewing and digging around.

[LisaL]

134. According to her, he was parked in front of the building in the

truck. He could have been waiting for anyone to come along, as he did all day with the carjack victims, and apparently the customs officer he murdered. And of course the police should be investigating-it's their job.

[lonestarnot]

119. Some'n smelln fishy to me too... n/t

[Swede]

120. I believe her.

People are bellyaching because she mentions her faith. She's a hero.

[FreedomAngel82]

189. Again it's not about her faith

If it was about her faith I wouldn't be questioning her. Nobody is questioning her faith! Got that? They (and me) are questiong her "story".

[A-Schwarzenegger]

123. I hope none of you people

ever get kidnaped by a killer and get the chance to show what
you're made of.

[Sparkle]

125. That won't happen. We have the Terminator to protect us.

:-)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

126. Thanks, I needed a laugh

with all the cynical dead-soul bullshit going on around here.

[Sparkle]

124. I don't know her story.

All I know is some guy broke loose in a courtroom and stole a baliff's gun and escaped but killed 3 people before he left. Then he forced himself in some woman's apartment and she stayed with him for about 36 hours and she was able to leave and call the cops.

Oh and he was finally caught. I'm glad that's all I know. I don't watch much tv. Too much MJ, MS and SP. But I did find out about some holy roller that shot about 8 of his church members dead because he didn't like the sermon. I gather they are talking more about this incident than the other story, no?

[Caria]

129. Something sort of like this happened to me

Thankfully, the stranger who forced his way into my home, attacked and imprisoned me there did not have a weapon. Nor did he help himself to a knife from the kitchen or turn any number of househld objects into a weapon. In fact, nothing he did "made sense."

I am not going into detail because the trial is pending. I just want to say that his behavior did not follow any kind of logic I can discern. He said surprising things that I've since learned were untrue (sort of like Nichols saying he'd never had real butter before).

And you know what else? I am to this day surprised at how I responded to him. Not in any way what I would have predicted. I think that on some level, my own sense of self-preservation was so strong that I found a way to interact with him that was out of character for me but got me safely out of the house.

So Ashley Smith's story doesn't sound fishy to me.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

133. Thank you for writing about an actual personal experience

with a terrifying hostage situation
and your resulting hard-won wisdom.
Thank you, Caria.

[Corgigal]

147. thank you for sharing you story

I also went through something with an encounter that could have gone very bad for me.

I also believe Ashley Smith's story because sure as hell the cops didn't do one damn thing RIGHT but it did take one average woman who wanted to live to stop the madness.

Give her the funds, let her live her life and stop judging her. If she judged Nichols like you guys are judging her, she would be dead right now. Let it go.

[FreedomAngel82]

190. So why didn't she call the cops ASAP?

Right then and there? Why did she make him pancakes and read him Bible stories? Sure she could've made him pancakes and then went to another room with a phone and called for help right away. Why did she harbor him?

[Corgigal]

195. human nature

isn't always neat and simple. She might have saw something worth saving or maybe she was naive as hell.

I worked 911 in Tampa Florida for 9 years, then EMS dispatch in Charleston SC for several years. You wouldn't begin to believe how people react in crisis.

[LisaL]

200. Oh, please. If she is telling the truth, she did not harbor anyone.

The fact that she didn't call the police when he made her follow him in her car means nothing. Hostages do weirder things. Remember Patty Hurst?
She was kidnapped and then participated in the crimes personally. Ashley Smith did nothing of the sort and she turned the guy in. Of course, it doesn't make sense why Nichols let her follow him in her car with a cell phone, but his behavior isn't exactly making a lot of sense either.

[Pithlet]

202. Thank you for posting this.

I don't know many of the details outside of what I've read on DU, but I don't know that anyone can really judge what she did. I can't imagine going through something like that, but I have a feeling I'd do and say just about anything to get out of it.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

146. Of all possible political machinations by the religious right

that worry me, this story is not on the list.

I have no idea whether her story is the truth, the whole truth or convenient bits of truth. Suffice to say we will be exposed to it endlessly in all its permutations over the months to come by every talking head on every channel that covers her testimony at the trial.

I'm glad that more people didn't die. If she wants to attribute that outcome to her faith, it doesn't matter to me.

[gauguin57]

152. So sue me, but my bullshit detector clangs like the dickens when I hear

this woman talk. She just sounds like she's acting. There's something false about her. My friends agree -- there's something not quite right.

Now, if it's all true, hats off to the woman for keeping this guy from killing anyone else. Truly ... hats off to her.

But we're definitely getting a 15-minutes-of-fame thing (I predict she'll have a BIIIIIG makeover soon! and an agent! and a book deal! She'll eventually be living in the Surreal Life house and getting a spin-off show with Flavor Flav).

[SoCalDem]

153. Paging Gloria Allred.. Please pick up the white phone

:)

[Pepperbelly]

156. who gives a shit?

What possible difference does this make to anyone?

[Frumious B]

161. People...people...It's "Get a grip." time.

If you had gone what she had gone through and then had to face mobs of reporters and sudden celebrity all in two days time then I bet you might sound a little awkward, unsure and generally off when addressing the media as well. I mean, c'mon, she still sounded far more normal than friggin' Bush and being a public figure is part of his job.

Having a checkered past doesn't exclude someone from being a Christian. Heck, being a stripper doesn't exclude someone either except in the eyes of the "religious right" who, quite frankly, don't much act like Christians anyway.

I think it's an amazing story and that's it. Karl Rove isn't lurking behind every curtain or under every bed, not yet anyway.

[FreedomAngel82]

191. I didn't watch all of the interviews

but in all the one's she was interviewed on did they ask her question's about various things or just all ask the same old tired question's (talking points) and let her chat about her little story? Did anybody do any investgating on these shows?

[shadowknows69]

160. cnn interviewed fallwell about it.

I can see this being used in an exploitive way.

[Catchawave]

166. Here's my thoughts....lots of questions

As a key witness, why are they letting her tell all the details publically? Trying to find holes in her story?

Does the convenience store have her on tape ? That should be pretty simple to check? She's a pretty blonde, I'm sure the clerk would remember her? Did she just buy cigs?

She said she noticed him sitting in the car, and even parked next to him? Any security videos at this apt complex? 2 a.m.? I think my gut would be not to get out of my car, maybe just drive away, maybe go back to the store and call the police to have this guy checked out? I would have thought nothing of this if it were 2pm.

She said she was up late unpacking, then realized she was out of cigs in the first story she gave. I never heard she was coming home from work. As a smoker, I never wait til I smoke the last one, to buy another pack. For some reason I'm one of those who knows a pack will last me a couple of days, probably know exactly what minute I'll run out....lol....and it's never been at 2a.m. Just something I noticed in her story..

I just heard Blowhard Bo Dietel on Imus mention he's investigating that Nichols had a complete change of fresh clothes at his arrest. Has this been mentioned in the msm? I don't remember. Bo thinks it's strange that not only would she still have her husbands clothes, but he was the exact same size at Nichols!

Yeah, it's getting crowded in the fishmarket.

[LisaL]

174. Nichols did have a complete change of clothes.

When he was captured, he was not wearing the same things he was wearing when he escaped. But what makes anyone think those were still her husband's clothes? It has been years since he died, she is a single woman, it would not be surprising if she was dating someone.

[FreedomAngel82]

192. I thought they just

found one shirt? Did he have just a change in shirt or total change in clothes?

[LisaL]

198. He had a total change in clothes. I believe in her interview

Ashley Smith said he asked for new clothes, and she gave them to him.

[ultraist]

194. He had on different clothes when they arrested him?

Hmmm...that is strange.

Did she work that night? Who would go home from work with just a few smokes and not buy a pack at work to take home? She worked in a sportsbar,I'm sure they sell cigs.

Also, he was into sports. Did he ever go to this bar? Maybe they met there in the past.

I have a feeling they knew eachother, that's why he made his way to her apt. I agree too, that why would she get out of the car, at 2 am, to go into her apt alone, with a man parked next to her.

There are too many coicindences. I just don't buy, it was a "miracle," he dropped into her life at that very moment.

[LisaL]

199. If they knew each other, and with that much attention on the story,

I have no doubt it would be found out. So far, nothing.

[AngryAmish]

167. She is filth

She must not be allowed to spew her hate.

[drdon326]

168. WOW !!

And you decided this how ?

[SoCalDem]

169. One icon we need at DU is this one

or

[drdon326]

171. Uhhhh..I think that was serious, n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

196. Is your bunny crapping easter eggs?

[SoCalDem]

203. Didn't know where easter eggs REALLY come from, eh?

Stay away from the chocolate eggs :)

[spanone]

178. This morning CNN said she has publicist. But she wants her privacy.

Hey hon, can't have it both ways.