The all or nothing attitude

[cynatnite]

One of the things which has struck me as odd on DU more so than anyplace else is the all or nothing attitude some take when it comes to politicians, celebs, religious figures, friends, family or any other group a person cares to name.

When I like someone or respect someone, I do not expect their views or beliefs to coincide exactly with mine. I like Clinton, but I don't agree with his religious views. It didn't dissuade me from voting for him.

I voted for Kerry even though I wished he would've been anti-war and said that gays should be allowed to marry. I like him, still do and I still believe he'd make a good president.

I like Billy Graham. He's always been very consistent in his views and I am relieved he hasn't been active in these hotbed political/religious times. I think he would have been burned at the stake for saying that 'fuck' didn't bother him, but taking the lord's name in vain did. He did say that curse words have never bothered him.

What I'm saying here is that it seems we do ourselves a disservice by completely dismissing a person whether its any public figure, friend or family when they don't vote for the person we think they should or don't view the world in exactly the same way as we do.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find the concept of cutting off family, friends, or anyone else for differing views as intolerant. The very thing many of us abhor.

I tear my hair out over my mother's views. It drives me nuts, but if I were to cut off my relationship with her or any other member of my RW extended family, I would miss them. They are loving, kind, funny, honest and so much more.

I have one neighbor who is the walking poster child of RW talking points and the few times we do discuss politics we both quit when it starts to get too heated. When my husband was injured, they were there for us when it counted. We couldn't have made it without their willingness to watch the kids when he was in the hospital and to make sure a meal was waiting after a long day at the hospital or during his rehab.

Underneath the skins of most repubs, dems and others (well, except for Delay and his type) are humans. They go through many of the same trials and tribulations as is does the rest of us. I don't expect their views or beliefs such as marriage, social justice or any other issues anyone cares to name to be the same as mine.

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

[Placebo]

1. Radicalism is never good, be it liberal or conservative.

And people who hold the "All or nothing" belief are radicals.

[Hardrada]

11. The worker's flag does not have to be totally red.

It can be a little pink.

[imenja]

2. I can't explain it but I agree it's a problem

and contributes to the weakness of the Democratic party. When the party can't count on support or activism on the part of much of the left, it's no surprise they pander toward the middle.

I find myself continually frustrated by those who complain that Democrats are too conservative and not worthy of their support yet are unwilling to put in the work necessary to change the party. The Christian Right worked diligently to influence the Republican party. We need to demonstrate that same level of commitment if we want to prevail.

[Discord]

3. I happen to agree with your assesment.

I too have been guilty of it myself, so I'm not going to bash others for doing so. My personal feelings are there are certain lines I do not want crossed. The "cardinal sin" if you will. Things so strikingly against what I stand for, that I can no longer respect that person for what they have done. I liken it to betraying my trust. Once broken, its nearly impossible to fully repair. I do understand the nature of the beast though. So I will generally attemp to find as much info on the incident as I can before passing final judgement. Sometimes, things aren't always what they seem. So, when dealing with someone who has generally proven themselves, when something happens that makes me step back, I feel the need to understand why it happened. Being a pragmatist myself, I can understand that sometimes there might be NO good choice, or that given the context, or series of events, might have altered the way that person may have acted in a normal situation. Giving the benifit of the doubt so to say. I do think most people have a hot-button issue. Something they feel passionately about or has special signifigance to them. So they may sometimes be set off much easier than the majority, and have a more extreme reaction to it. Just my thoughts on this.

[Steel City Slim]

4. I Have A Good Friend....

....who is so fucking conservative it's unbelievable. I have a hard time believing she believes some of the things she does. We try not to talk politics, but it's impossible to avoid that all together, and sometimes our arguments get pretty loud. But we don't allow it to affect our friendship.

[murielm99]

5. Hmmmm....

Politics used to be known as the art of compromise.

When the right-wingers took over, that was forgotten. Whether or not they started it, it would be good to remember that in our daily lives. A bit of civility does a lot of good. We all have to compromise on our jobs, and within our families. Nothing is ever all or nothing.

We respect the ladies and gentlemen in politics, too. Goldwater was a gentleman. So is Byrd. They have had to compromise plenty.

I have RW parents, too. They have gotten that way as they aged. They drive me crazy, but they are my parents. My father will be 80 this year, and my mother is 76. They need me far more than I need them, or so I tell myself. I could not abandon them because of their religion and politics.

This is a message board. Things get heated. In some ways, the all or nothing approach is acceptable here, because we need to know where our beliefs and those of our leaders coincide. We need to be able to criticize them for not living up to the standards we expect. We need to hear all sides, so we can call out our leaders when they don't do what we think they should.

But abandon them? Go all or nothing? And do what? Vote republican?

[cynatnite]

6. Good point

There used to be a lot of compromise and not seeing it now in the WH, congress and the places we are accustomed to seeing them can have an affect on everything else.

I like what you said.

[Nobody]

13. I see every day in the opinion pages

Some letter writer or even a commentary writer who should know better decrying Democrats (and only Democrats) as being divisive and partisan every time they don't instantly roll over and vote for anything the Republicans want.

If we wanted instant acquiescence to everything Bush and Sons Inc want, we'd have an absolute monarchy.

Sometimes the Republicans forget that not every state is in the iron grip of their party, just because they have it at the Federal level.

I would HOPE that there are still some people trying to represent their constituents.

[hfojvt]

17. Goldwater was a gentleman?

"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice" are the words of a gentleman?
I see the all or nothing applied to people on this board, not to politicians. There are freepers, sheeple and then there's the elect. "Any DUer who deviates from an accepted liberal line is probably a lurker" seems to be a prevailing attitude. They are not an otherwise cool (or "righteous" would be the sixties phrase, but fundies own it now) person who is wrong about an issue - no they are an ignorant idiot, bigot, misogynist, homophobe, reactionary. I feel like I get that reaction alot. Maybe I set myself up for it.

[hlthe2b]

7. I'm a "big picture" person and I see life in all its complexities....

and people for their good and bad. My view of a person is based on the balance. Increasingly, I'm finding that this makes me an oddity. :shrug:

[Arianrhod]

8. I don't think it's as cut and dried as all that.

I haven't had to cut anyone off, because I never made any strongly conservative friends (I've always leaned towards freedom). My family, however, is about as Freeper as you can get. But you can't choose your family, and blood ties are stronger than just about anything else in the human world, so I simply don't talk politics with them.

OTOH, I don't know if I could remain friends with someone who, in my observation, is actively working to destroy the country. It's one thing to be concerned about surviving and living well; it's quite another to be bigoted, racist, misogynist, homophobic, greedy, warmongering, and violent in the process. I've never liked people who demonstrate those qualities, but have always gravitated towards those who believe in community, generosity, and compassion. I suppose that's why I don't have to make the difficult choices now.

Bottom line is, I think one has to consider each situation on its own terms, rather than simply generalizing. Relationships are too complex for such a simpleminded attitude. And the judgment one makes, regardless of what it is, is nobody else's business.

[cynatnite]

9. You're right...relationships are complex

The RW people I know, well most of them, aren't out looking to destroy the country for one thing. They believe differently than I do. They don't completely fall in line with rw talking points all the way either.

The thing is that I see here is that sometimes when a person is republican they get slapped with being bigoted, racist, misogynist, homophobic and any of the other labels you used when it's just not that way.

I know dems who are completely opposed to abortion and they believe it should be illegal unless in cases of rape, incest or the life of the mother. They are pro-life in every way and very consistent.

Dems, repubs and others do have community, generosity and compassion in varying degrees...like I said..underneath the political labeling, there is a person.

[Arianrhod]

20. I think I may have been a bit harsh in my reply.

Unfortunately, I'd had an encounter of that sort with someone at work, and it still rankled. Sorry if I came on too strongly.

My real point, though, is as you say: Every relationship is different. We can't just generalize about people purely on the basis of their political affiliation. OTOH, I feel that, if someone feels strongly enough about another's views, then perhaps they shouldn't be associating with them any longer. As in all things, I strive not to rush to judgment against them for making such a decision.

[Nay]

12. I'm with you, Arian. I've never really had to make huge

decisions about whether to keep this friend or that one, because I never made friends with people who repulsed me -- racists, homophobes, sexists, the overly-religious, etc. I perfectly understand that they are the way they are for whatever reason, but I don't go and make friends with them in any deep or meaningful way. We all have acquaintances (work friends often fall in this category) who will never be real friends per se, but we try to get along for the good of the group we are forced to be in.

I also think that one of the main reasons most of us don't join groups voluntarily anymore is that we are tired of associating with real weirdos, who seem to be in ever-larger supply these days. We go home to truly relax.

[Trillo]

10. I agree with you generally, my comment is

that our schools should not be teaching intolerance. I also apologize, because my thoughts below are half-written at this point.

Unjust school expulsions effectively teach that banishment is an effective technique that works. But it only works from one point of view. From the other's viewpoint, it teaches how to banish. This effect may be geometric with respect toward the number of punishments meted at an early age.

For example, if there's no explicit rule against something, should adult minds create a sophisticated rational that it was implicit after the punishment has been decided (or executed)? That just teaches lying. Lessons of lecture in tolerance will never equal examples of unjust intolerance that are made in a young mind.

One may also generalize to less serious school and parent administered punishments that are in their fundamental essence, unjust.

The whole Zero Tolerance campaign has a very ugly underbelly, Zero Tolerance itself becomes a mindset. It really is too bad that more tolerant minds didn't prevail in the argument of adopting this public school policy, but since when was education about learning how to succeed in life instead of about failure through punishment-and-judgement through its associated command-and-control mindset?

No one gets to choose their parents (at least so far as we know), so the learning environment plays a critical part in balancing the parents discipline. When it becomes unjust, or when there's too little reward and too much punishment, psyche damage occurs.

Granted, a few do learn economic success from the compulsory public schools. Those few aren't even close to a majority of all those who went through the system, and they've been affected by its unjustness as well, but in a different way. I believe most people are in denial, and their true self sometimes never appears to emerge, sometimes it emerges when they're under stress or perhaps when arguing a hot-button issue.

Add a valuable scarcity such as money into the mix with the cycle of command & control and punishment & judgement that's nearly impossible to stamp out.... In those few who've had the positive rewards that success confers coupled with a flawed educational system: a pathological pursuit of money, power, and control occurs.

[Toots]

14. Is it intolerant to cut off association with a murderer?

If you vote Republican you vote for murder and are guilty by association IMHO. When Republicans regain some semblance of sanity back then a new association could be instated but for now they are guilty of crimes against the earth and against mankind. I disassociate myself from them and their policies completely. You don't seem to grasp just how serious it has become. People are dying. It is life or death for many people around the world and you want to pussyfoot around. If you are not part of the sollution you are part of the problem.. just my $.02 worth.

[SouthernDem2004]

15. You just gave a good example of what she is talking about.

[lonestarnot]

16. Thank you Toots! I may be blind in my cutemoff attitude, but I have

also shrunk my circle of friends. Not dealing with them any more on a friendly basis. Just not and that's that!

[Nikia]

18. I learned to be "tolerant" from my grandparents

I grew up spending a lot of time with both sets of grandparents. My father's parents were Republican, while my mother's parents were Democrat. My grandparents were good friends and had friends of both parties. Both grandmothers had served on their county central committee. My mothers parents were the more vocal of the sets and regularly argued politics. They even kicked friends out of their house when the discussion became too heated but they always invited their REpublican friends back. My Republican grandparents were less argumentative and tried to find common ground.
Although I disagreed with my Republican grandparents, I realize that their views were based on a different time. By know means were they bigotted or intolerant. They never were pro war. They just tended to really believe that people would take care of their families and neighbors and hold companies accountable for their actions rather than get the government involved. It's a different philosophy that is rapidly being proved irrelevent in this materalistic corporate dominated world.
People are complex and I respect that. Although there are some people who I would not choose to associate with, I will not cut off good people who happen to hold some right wing views.

[Zorra]

19. Republicans are destroying my country, taking away my freedom, and

threatening my personal survival on a daily basis. I despise them for what they have done to America.

Fuck them all. I do not associate with republicans, and this is why:

I don't go for this "kinder, gentler nazi" crap. These people are crazy, and very dangerous, especially the ones that smile and serve you Bundt cake while cousin Joe's legs are being amputated from injuries sustained in the senseless war that these people are fully responsible for. After all the madness Buh engaged for the past four years since he stole an election, these people still voted for him. This means they are truly crazy, and dangerous as all hell.

Maybe I'm not so nice, but I'm trying to be real. Appeasing these republican nutcases does nothing but bring more misery down upon the world, and these people need to be shunned because they are dangerously full of shit, they cause massive amounts of human misery, and they need to be called on it. I turn my back on them; they are, in their ignorance or in their malice, a genuine shame to my country and my people.

If I lived in Germany in the 30's, I would not associate with anyone that supported Hitler. I live in Mexico now, I had to leave the US after Buh stole the election in 2000 because I can not, in good conscience, give one thin dime to that awful fascist republican government, and I refuse to associate with anyone that supports the Buh agenda.

Yes, I do equate republicans with nazis. With the passing of each day, as another civil liberty is stolen from me, as another saber is rattled by the lunatics in Washington, as another piece of mainstream media propaganda spews from the mill, the similarity between nazis and republicans becomes clearer.