Catholic DUers, a few questions on faith, the Pope, and the church's futur

[fujiyama]

Let me begin by offering my condolences at the loss of Pope John Paul II. Regardless of what I felt about his views on certain issues, from what I've read he seemed like an amazing figure. As a non Catholic, non Christian athiest/agnostic, I appreciate his speaking out against this unjust war, poverty, and what seemed like a sincere effort to reach out to people of other faiths to work for a world of peace. I was especially impressed by his asking of forgiveness for anti semitism and his own forgiveness of his would be assassin.

I think these last several years have been somewhat a difficult time for Catholics in the US, atleast by what I've seen and read. Considering attendence was falling for a while, the pedophile scandals made it much worse. Now, with JP II's death, it marks the end of an era for the church.

Personally, I would hope that the next Pope can build upon JP II's fight against anti semitism and extend it to homophobia and other forms of bigotry. A clear unambiguous condemnation against homphobia would be most welcome as well as a possible flexibility on the matter of contraceptives (though I wouldn't hold my breath on that).

How will those of the Catholic faith on DU react to the possible selection of a farther right Pope? Will you still remain in the church? How have the scandals affected your faith?

BTW, I've heard this Pope was arguably farther to the right than his predecessors...How is that the case?

Just kind of curious what Catholic DUers feel in terms of the future of the church.

[readmylips]

1. Catholic Religion is ancient...will never brake..

The Pope is a Spiritual Leader not a politician like American TV commentators presented Him all day today. It was beautiful and utmost respectful to listen to Spanish TV commentators. Never, not even once did they refer or compared the Holiness to a politician, American or any other world leader.

You are asking a question that should be directed at politicians and not to a Spiritual Leader.

[AnnInLa]

11. He lobbied countries in the UN not to support

the Iraq war....he influenced at least 4 countries, one of which was Mexico to vote NO. This is not politics?

[imenja]

2. it's also inaccurate to refer to John Paul II as a right winger

He was traditional on a number of issues related to contraception, the liturgy, etc.... but he also spoke out in favor of social justice with great frequency. The war was one recent example.

I also would make a slight distinction between the Church's position on gay marriage and homophobia. It is a simple fact that a large number of priests are homosexuals, though not sexually active. The Church doesn't have a policy of discriminating against gays within the clergy. If it did, it would have few priests left. It is of course is entirely intolerant on gay marriage, but so is most of the Democratic party.

[hedgehog]

3. It's a very complex issue

Most Catholic life takes place at the parish level. I can't think of anyone who has left the Church over the Pope, but I often hear of someone who has left because of a bad experience with a priest or nun. I don't mean pedophilia, I mean something like an insulting sermon or indifference to a bad family situation. People don't leave because of what the Pope says, they leave because of what the parish priest says.

The scandals just serve as a reminder that the Church is human and still needs to change. The reforms of Vatican II have prepped the Church (IE all the people of the Church, not just the hierarchy) for making those changes.

Moses spent 40 years in the desert so the generation that knew slavery in Egypt would die off and a free people would enter the Promised land. It's been about 40 years now since Vatican II. I expect some significant changes over the next ten years.

[phylny]

4. My dad is Catholic

and while he didn't leave the Church (he would never NOT be Catholic, even though two of his three children are no longer Catholic), he did reduce his monetary contributions after the whole national pedophilia scandal AND the way some of his local parish priests were goading people to vote for certain candidates in the last election. At 77 years of age, he was pissed off.

[mmonk]

5. It kinda works this way.

If a pope wants to change something ex cathedra, it still has to go through a vetting. It depends on the make up of the vetters (whether they approve change). If the traditionalists have the numbers, then the pope won't speak ex cathedra concerning faith matters so no official change. Nothing however can keep a pope from speaking his heart. What people need to understand is the people themselves can take it upon themselves whether to ignore something or not (plenty of catholics use contraceptives for example). Unfortunately, the people have to take the brunt if the outside world doesn't like what the hierarchy says because they are more or less swept up in the contempt of others. But people aren't Catholic for those types of issues. Most people I know are Catholic for something deeper or ancient whether it be the ancient traditions traditions that mark every season or the deep breadth of old liturical traditions they can't get in modernized religion. Sometimes, its hard to remain Catholic. Most just let Church rulings fall off like so much rain. Others still work for internal changes on things they don't like (though there is no say, even if they are priests). One positive (though people who hate Catholicism disregard) is it steadfastness in defense of the poor and its pacificity (though it went through periods of war and physical oppression). Confused yet?

[alcuno]

6. We are bound together by the beliefs of Catholicism, not politics.

Personally, I don't know how you become not-a-Catholic. It's not like you just go register somewhere else.

I'm sure the next pope will be a real right-winger. But when you look at our history, we've had REALLY bad popes, but the faith went on. If the pope is good, you're happy, and if he's not, you ignore him. Welcome to Catholicism.

[zanne]

7. I became not-a-Catholic a long time ago. It's easy.

Just because someone poured water on my head when I was a few months old, I can't escape being a Catholic? I am not religious by nature; that may offend you, but frankly, my dear...

[alcuno]

8. Well.....

I believe that the Church will still bury you because you were baptized a Catholic. Why? You guess..... BTW - I'm not at all offended by non-religious people.

[cap]

9. actually you have to renounce the church

and if you never renounce the church and you want to come back (even if you go to another church ), the church does let you back in.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

13. Hey - get a grip - these are very good questions

unless you are the kind of Catholic who thinks there should be no questions.

[msongs]

14. exactly correct. it is not bashing to be critical with cause.

the recently deceased human who held the title of god on earth was no better or worse than the rest of the people who died yesterday (a million or more?) and it would be interesting to see how many meals could be provided at the cost of his funeral and associated activities.

Jesus says help poor people. now that would be a good foundation for a religion and a more fitting tribute to a man's legacy than spending millions of bucks for a funeral.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[hedgehog]

15. I think you will find that the ceremonies have been streamlined

and the costs cut way back. At the same time, I have to admit you remind me of the person who rebuked the woman for spending money on perfume to anoint the Lord's feet. John Paul II was very important to many people. Why begrudge him an appropriate funeral?

[LibDemAlways]

12. One pressing issue that the future Pope

cannot continue to ignore is the Priest shortage, especially here in the US. I belong to a suburban parish. For years the Pastor was assisted by a stream of young priests fresh out of the seminary. They were all good, idealistic young men. However, they couldn't handle celibacy, and several of them left the priesthood to marry.

It is becoming increasingly common for Pastors to have no assistant, and for parishes to close and consolidate.

Ordinary lay people are taking on greater responsibility within the church and married deacons are taking up some of the slack - performing some baptisms, weddings, funerals, and preaching at mass - though they are unable to consecrate the Eucharist - the central act of Catholic worship.

Married Episcopalian priests who convert to Catholicism are quietly allowed to serve as Catholic priests. They are rare, but they exist. The next Pope will absolutely have to consider the possibility of a married priesthood. And of course, half the population cannot currently be ordained at all, though I think we'll have married priests long before we ordain women. Sorry to say the sexism is extremely deeply ingrained.

I think the Cardinals are well aware of these realities and some will fight for a more progressive Pope who won't be so adverse to change. However, for now the hardliners will probably win out, and the status quo will prevail.

What would make me very happy would be for the new Pope to take a very tough stand against war and war mongering, and really stand up to the US. At the time of the invasion of Iraq, JPII spoke out, but from a weakened position given his ill-health and frailty. Imagine the impact of a younger, more vigorous Pope actually travelling to Baghdad at the time of the threatened invasion with a message of peace. Would the BFEE have dared bomb the Pope?

At any rate, Catholics will go on about their daily lives, listening to, but frequently ignoring, church dictums on matters of personal morality. In that regard, nothing will change no matter who is Pope.