There is at least one flame war a day on here. Are we turning into FReeps?

[JohnnyCougar]

Seriously, it is one thing to be ideologically driven, but in the end, we are all flawed. Does everybody have to live up to some sort of ideological perfection not to be castigated on Democratic Underground? I certainly hope y'all have more mercy on yourselves and your families than you do for public figures.

The people who show no sensitivity towards the death of a public figure revered and respected by more people in this world than anyone else probably need to do a reality check. Here is why.

1. Nobody is perfect. You are not perfect. Everyone makes mistakes, has biases, and follows some ideological rule that is offensive to others. If you show no sympathy for one death, you show no sympathy for all death. You have no sympathy for death itself. If one is imprefect, do we laud their demise, or do we forgive their faults for the strength they do bring to this world? Or do we just loudly proclaim that we don't give a rat's ass. Pope John Paul II publically forgave the man that tried to assasinate him. The Pope himself never did something so extreme. Can you forgive the Pope?

2. Learn to live with those that are ideologically different than you. Combat and confrontation only push those with opposing views away. Why do you think we can't win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people by bombing them to freedom? We are a family here at DU. When someone your brother or mother loves or respects dies, do you show disrespect or lack of empathy? Why would you do it here, if you don't do it to your family?

3. Show some courtesy and respect. It's as simple as having good manners. When people die, don't rub it in that they are dead and you don't care. Have at least a shred of dignity and self respect.

If a feminist wants to say that men are the cause of evil in this world, yet does a lot of work to better this place for others, I would still heavily mourn the passing of her life. If a DUer on here who says Catholics are evil and comparable to Hitler dies, do you really think it would be appropriate for me to address the issue of their death with flippancy and glee?

This Pope did much for a lot of people in this world. If I were you, I would try and forgive his imperfections for the sake of dignity, civility, and your own self-respect. Liberals are supposed to be warm, empathetic people. If you are not warm and empathetic, at least try and fake it.

[Dookus]

1. first

I hate the co-dependent "MOMMY! DADDY! STOP FIGHTING!" childishness here. It's OK for us to argue on a political discussion board. Really, it is.

Second, I have expressed my condolences to those who are pained by the Pope's death, but that does NOT mean I will stop pointing out he was a reactionary arch-conservative.

[JohnnyCougar]

4. First...

There is a difference between civil debate and foolishness.

Second: the Pope was not a reactionary arch-conservative. That is a reactionary statement in and of itself. Case closed.

[Dookus]

8. you are

expecting some sort of universal respect for one of the most powerful, most conservative men in modern times. You will not find that on a liberal political discussion board.

It used to be that "ya gotta admire the guy" was a preface to a point about to be made. Now it's a command in and of itself. Sorry, I do not admire nor do I respect the Pope, and I'm not going to pretend I do for the sake of your feelings.

I'm sure there are Catholic discussion boards on which you won't find people who disagree with you on this point. You should check one out. You surely will not find universal agreement here.

[Inland]

19. Declaring JP "one of the most conservative men" isn't liberal.

It's delusional.

He couldn't get a job in the Bush adminstration, unless he were to take a ineffective post as the guy responsible for faith based intiatives.

You don't have to pretend to respect anyone's feelings on the Pope, but you might at least pretend to respect the truth.

[Dookus]

30. Don't be silly

even catholic observers of his papacy consider him extremely conservative. Also authoritarian.

He was in no way a liberal, despite how much you want him to be.

[Inland]

44. I didn't say he was a liberal.

But to call him one of the most conservative--please. That's just not true.

I dont' want him to be a liberal. It's a little late for that. But it is weird that you decided to paint him as the uber-conservative, when you know more conservative, and more authoritarian, right here in your own little neighborhood.

[Dookus]

48. Actually, I do not

I don't know of any major political figure who opposes all forms of birth control. I don't know of any major political figure who opposes the use of condoms, even for people with HIV. I don't know any major political figure who openly espouses the inequality of women.

There may be some here in the far right fringes. But they are decidedly fringe. John Paul II was a far-right conservative. He was on the fringe.

[Inland]

74. Yep, you picked out some. But then again, you screwed it up.

The pope didn't esppuse the inequality of women, except for the priesthood, and you can find tons of people there.

The pope was against the war in Iraq.

The pope believed in fair wages for labor and freedom to organize.

The pope criticized cultures of materialism and acquistion.

The pope criticized unfettered capitalism.

The pope was against capital punishment.

The pope had nice things to say about environmentalism.

The pope wouldn't have lasted in the current adminstration of your own country.

To call him one of the most conservative men simply means you don't know him or don't know your conservatives.

[Dookus]

86. OK... let's go

*The pope didn't esppuse the inequality of women, except for the priesthood, and you can find tons of people there.

Sorry, I disagree. I don't think anybody argues this pope was a feminist. And yes, the ONE area he had direct control over, he opposed the equality of women.

*The pope was against the war in Iraq.

So was Robert Novak. What did the Pope DO about the war in Iraq? Did he threaten to excommunicate catholics who supported it? Did he go to Baghdad to stop it? Did he go to Washington to try to talk Bush out of it? Did he urge his bishops to speak out from the pulpit against it? No he did not. He spoke out against it. So did I.


*The pope believed in fair wages for labor and freedom to organize.

How many other world leaders openly OPPOSE fair wages?

*The pope criticized cultures of materialism and acquistion.

Sounds more like a religious view than a political one, but good for him.

*The pope criticized unfettered capitalism.

So do all politicians. Believe it or not, no American political leader supports doing away with all restrictions on commerce. It's a commonsense position, and one espoused by Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower and Herbert Hoover.

*The pope was against capital punishment.

Then why didn't he change the church policy? The church does NOT oppose capital punishment in all cases.

*The pope had nice things to say about environmentalism.

Nice things to say. That's... um... nice. I heard Bush and Reagan say nice things, too. Alas, the Pope has little policy say over the environment. The Vatican City is pretty-well paved by this point, so his direct influence is minor.


*The pope wouldn't have lasted in the current adminstration of your own country.

I agree. His social policies were so conservative, he could not have been confirmed.

*To call him one of the most conservative men simply means you don't know him or don't know your conservatives.

I disagree.

[ultraist]

135. Yes, he considered feminism to be a part of the "culture of death"

Anti BC and anti abortion were only two ways in which he promoted the subjugation of women.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Couldn't agree more...

n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Well

"Second, I have expressed my condolences to those who are pained by the Pope's death, but that does NOT mean I will stop pointing out he was a reactionary arch-conservative.'


On human sexuality he surely was....


On economics he was way to the left of the Democratic party... He criticized "savage capitalism" and called the exploitation of the worker by unbridled capitalism the "kernel of truth within Marxism."

[Dookus]

14. And

what did he do for social justice in Central and South America? He OPPOSED liberation theology, one of the few good movements to come out of the modern church.

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of this immediate re-writing of history. He was NOT a liberal, neither on moral issues nor political issues. Yes, he spoke about the excesses of capitalism. So did many of our Republican presidents. It didn't make them liberals.

[Just Me]

59. He was an advocate of economic justice.

You can deny it, if you please. But, he was, in fact and by action, an advocate of economic justice which is a more liberal position than even the majority of democrats will take. His theology was socially conservative, no doubt.

However, this post isn't just about whether this man suited your political views or personal philosophies.

This post is about whether we are behaving like "liberals" e.g. tolerant, inclusive, creative, progressive, intelligent human beings.

There are those who are behaving consistent with being "liberal" and those who are not.

[Dookus]

67. Well

please tell me how he was an advocate for economic justice?

I believe that perpetuating abject poverty by refusing reasonable family planning is NOT conducive to economic justice. I believe furthering the spread of HIV - with its concurrent rise in suffering and creating orphans - is not conducive to economic justice.

He TALKED about economic justice. He did not do concrete actions that led to economic justice.

[Just Me]

85. Even if I listed all he did to oppose unleashed global capitalism,...

,...to oppose corporatocracy, to increase programs to provide food and water and medicine to those who needed it, and met with other varying religious leaders about correcting economic disparity,...would it matter? Would you acknowledge it?

Somehow, I just don't think so because your anger over his morally conservative positions just won't allow any acknowledgement of another side of this human being.

U.S. corporations have actively engaged in scams which have caused more suffering, more poverty, more death and destruction and violence than the moral conservatism of this man,...that's for damned sure. He was their enemy, too.

So, as awful as you may want to adjudge him because he was a moral conservative,...he simply wasn't ALL BAD.

[Dookus]

89. But you're mistaken

and I could rudely say that your anger over people disagreeing with you makes you not see how conservative he was. It's annoying when people do that, isn't it?

I disagree with you about the suffering caused by corporations versus the Pope. I think this one man was singularly positioned to, with one proclamation, ease the suffering of hundreds of millions of people, both alive today and yet-to-be-born. Poverty could be solved in one generation if poor people stopped making more poor people. The Catholic Church is one of the few entities that actually could do something about this problem RIGHT NOW if it chose to.


I also have never said the Pope was all bad. Why do you read that into my statements? I'm sure he was a nice guy. He was compassionate. I believe the same things about Ronald Reagan, but I don't consider Reagan a conservative.

[Just Me]

101. You deny the destruction caused by corporatocracy?

In that case, the conversation will have to end here.

If you are interested in revealing facts pertaining to that destruction, there is a recent publication you may be interested in called, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It's an easy read. Of course, there's plenty of information about how U.S. corporations and financiers have destroyed countries.

[Dookus]

106. of course I did not deny that

please try to read ONLY what I write and not what you think you can ascribe to me.

It is my position, though, that corporations have little to do with whether or not people use birth control or condoms. The Vatican has a lot to do with it.

[Just Me]

120. You're confused. We are talking about economic justice, yes?

The Pope advocated against the U.S. multinational corporations that would tank countries into abject poverty, despair, and desperation while funnelling all the natural resources and human potential into their greedy murderous hands.

[Dookus]

122. sigh

yes he spoke out against a lot of things. So have I.

What has he DONE!?

It seems when it comes to abortion, the church is ready to get involved at the drop of a hat. But when it comes to economic justice, or human rights, or stopping a war, they send a memo.

[Just Me]

138. As a "liberal", I can respect the life of an imperfect human being,...

,...who's clear intention was to improve the world to the best of his/her ability.

As a "liberal", I can also oppose those human beings whose clear intention are to usurp from the world for their own selfish benefit and at the clear devastation of many other people.

I wish the Pope had taken a more inclusion position on certain social issues. But, he was not an evil, self-serving, greedy man who actively wreaked destruction on this earth. To the contrary, he was the first Pope to reach out to all people of VARYING faith and to overtly oppose greed-driven capitalism.

He deserves my acknowledgement even if you don't feel he deserves yours.

That said,...I will argue no further about the merits of the Pope's life.

[Dookus]

168. and as a liberal

(and I don't need to put it in quotes) I will continue to oppose far right-wingers, whether they're in the White House or the Vatican.

[Just Me]

188. You are obviously firm in adjudging the Pope as a "far right-winger".

But, what's the use of opposing a dead man,...you, "liberal", you? *LOL*

Awwww,...look. You hated the Pope so much because he refused to bend from certain moral positions which impacted you and it's really useless to ask you to be moderately respectful of his death or those impacted by his death.

So, I won't ask you to do what you will not choose to do.

'kay?

[Dookus]

198. Don't pretend to know what I feel

I don't hate the Pope. I opposed him, and disagreed with him on major policy issues.

Can you find a post in which I've been disprectful of his death? I doubt it very much. Perhaps YOUR blind allegiance is coloring your views about me. You seem to be reading things that aren't there.

And what's the use of opposing a dead man? His policies live on. Did you agree with Ronald Reagan on everything after he died? I doubt it.

[Just Me]

206. Blind allegiance? What do you suggest is my "blind allegiance"?

I'm curious. Moreover, your perpetuation of rationalizations for attacking the integrity of a man that just died does have the flavor of "hate" and "disrespect" under the circumstances.

With respect to both the Pope and RR, they are dead. They are not the people I am most concerned about today and I am not compelled to diss on a fresh corpse unless its akin to the handful of evil extremists wreaking havoc on this country and the world this very day.

They are the ones setting policy for THIS country. They are the ones who are engaging in horrific economic and human terror. They are the ones who concern me. They are the ones who should be receiving the very best of our venom.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[Dookus]

212. oh for christ's sake

READ.

When did I impugn his integrity? I did not do that, ever.

STOP trying to read my mind - it's rude and it just demonstrates that you're not very good at it.

I was told last week that I shouldn't disagree with the Pope because he was ill and dying. Now you tell me I can't disagree with him because he's dead.

When the hell CAN I disagree with him? His policies are still in place. Am I supposed to accept them now out of "respect"?

[ultraist]

215. Because any views that are in opposition to religious dogma are "hateful"

I've seen numerous posters who have posted well reasoned, objective posts about the Catholic Church's positions be called "hateful," "intolerant," "disrespectful," "angry," etc.

Ad hominem attacks.

[WMliberal]

201. he didn't just oppose Liberation Theology, he stamped it out

and all but excommunicated the priests and bishops involved. In its place, he's put in bishops and archbishops who have given the thumbs up to some of the most repressive regimes in the world.

[Dookus]

203. Yep

and people here insist he was a consistent foe against fascism.

[ClintonTyree]

2. What the hell are you talking about?

:grr: Zot him...ZOT HIM! :silly:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[guinivere]

10. Who pissed in your Wheaties?

[JohnnyCougar]

13. I think they were being sarcastic.

At least, I HOPE!

[guinivere]

16. K. Sorry. Haven't been here long enough to tell sometimes.n/t

[JohnnyCougar]

28. Well, you might have been right!

[Blue_In_AK]

15. Oh, please.......... n/t

[hippiepunk]

5. Were not turning into FReeps

because they have NO intellectual disagreements.

[JohnnyCougar]

12. True...

But I wouldn't classify the latest disagreements as "intellectual" on here. They are mostly emotional, senseless rants.

We all need a reminder sometimes that we are all human, and need to be treated as such. Even the Pope is human. Even other DUers are human. Disagree and still be civil. I can argue with the greatest of FReepers because I don't insult their brain size, and I usually make progress.

Fighting visciously but not thoughtfully is not always the most effective way to forge ahead.

[Just Me]

76. *LOL* good point. However, are we behaving like "liberals"?

I find myself increasingly concerned with the venom and hard-line rhetoric and broad-brush persecutions being utilized to justify personal perceptions and positions while simultaneously degrading anothers' personal beliefs.

Such behavior generates the same anger and hatefulness that we loathe about the RW,...and some of us are aiming that behavior at fellow "liberals".

So, in that respect, I am concerned.

[EFerrari]

7. All right. ALL RIGHT! FAKING HARD AS I CAN. : )

[Malva Zebrina]

11. I agree with the poster in #1

and a certain amount of respect has been given. We are not ghouls.

However, we are not obliged to go on forever, day after day, giving "respect" to something that we do not think deserves it as far as certain political policies go.

Patronizing is an insult also, for it demeans and dismisses those others and their views with the climbing upon, of the lilly white pedastal of being above all of "that" and looking down upon those others. Patronizing says we will "tolerate" their ignorance while we know better.

[JohnnyCougar]

18. No

Patronizing says we will "tolerate" their ignorance while we know better.

No, it doesn't. It just says we appreciate all the good things this man has accomplished in this world. If you patronize one man, you don't patronize every single one of his actions and beliefs. Otherwise, we wouldn't have anyone to patronize, because no one is perfect.

No one on here has said they agreed with the Pope's position on gays. No one has patronized that ideal. But we can still patronize a man despite his imperfections.

Martin Luther King was supposedly a womanizer. Does that mean I should tell people to stop patronizing him? No way! MLK is in my to 5 respected people of all time. I forgive him for being a womanizer. He did a lot more good than bad in this world.

[Dookus]

20. MLK's womanizing

affected nobody but himself, his wife and his partners.

The pope's pronouncements and positions have led to immeasurable pain.

We are not attacking the Pope's private life. We are criticizing his very public positions as a worldwide political leader.

[JohnnyCougar]

23. So you have no sympathy for his wife, his partners, and MLK himeslf?

That pain MLK caused means nothing because it wasn't done to enough people?

[Dookus]

26. Are you serious?

Do you not see the difference between a personal, private indiscretion and political policies that affect hundreds of millions?

That's mind-boggling.

[JohnnyCougar]

38. You don't see the point.

The point is not the difference. The point is that no one is perfect.

[Dookus]

42. And nobody

is demanding perfection of the Pope. We are criticizing his well-thought-out policies that he promulgated.

I don't HAVE to forgive MLK or Bill Clinton for their indiscretions, because they did not involve ME. But the Pope's policies affected the whole world, and as a gay man, I was particularly hurt by his official stance.

I really think you're going down a strange road here.

[JohnnyCougar]

54. And the pope was nearly assasinated.

But he was able to forgive his assassin.

I don't know if the Pope ever tried to assasinate you, but maybe you could at least show a little compassion. It's not like I haven't ever been tormented in my life. But the people who have have been forgiven.

[Dookus]

60. yes the pope forgave his ATTEMPTED assassin

Good for him.

Again, that did not involve me. Forgiving someone who has wronged you is not a matter of liberal or conservative. I think the problem stems from the idea that many people have here that conservatives cannot be nice people. That is wrong, and dangerous.

What compassion do you want? I have expressed my condolences in the Catholic group. Does compassion mean I can't disagree with the attempts to re-write history to cast this pope as a liberal?

[JohnnyCougar]

87. Well, if you were able to express condolences, then fine.

I'm not asking for much compassion...that is enough.

The pope defied the traditional liberal/conservative label. He was all over the place. I didn't say he was liberal. I just said that he fought for some of the causes that we fought for, and in one's death, I feel it appropriate to look at their positive contributions to the world. It is those that we should remember and have inspire us.

And if someone makes mistakes, just try and understand why he/she made them instead of lashing out at them. That's all.

[Dookus]

93. But I haven't "lashed out'

I've expressed my opinion, which is very different from yours. I have probably posted a hundred posts on the Pope and none of them have been deleted. In fact, I started a thread about why I do not like the Pope and it grew very quickly without any flames breaking out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3397474



That thread was not "lashing out". It was a reasoned argument.


You keep asking me to forgive him for his wrong policies out of a sense of personal compassion. Sorry, I won't do that. If I thought the Pope had simply made a human mistake when he said I was part of a system of evil, that would be possible. But it didn't just slip out by accident - it was his considered opinion. I think it's fair to object.

[JohnnyCougar]

111. Well, you are entitled to your opinion...

I wouldn't call calling the Pope an "arch-conservative" a reasoned argument, but...

When I mentioned "lashing out" it wasn't specifically targeted at you. Like I said, if you were able to express condolences on the Christian group, that is good enough for me.

I do, however, think it would be good for YOU to learn to forgive those that hurt you. Forget, no...but forgiveness helps both the forgiver and the forgivee. Anger and resentment have never been productive. I understand why you would be angry, and why this man would leave you with more than just a bad taste in your mouth. But resentment doesn't change the past, present, or the future.

[Dookus]

117. You know what?

I honestly don't think forgiving the dead is meaningful. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in a soul. The Pope has never requested my forgiveness, nor does he need it.

I disagree with him as a political figure. His positions have hurt many, many people. I think your talk about "forgiveness" is a way to try to get people to somehow agree with you that we should mourn his loss.

I do not mourn his loss.

[JohnnyCougar]

127. Come on....

I'm not trying to secretly get people to do anything like mourn the loss of the Pope. I'm not that smart and manupulative that I can get people to do that on an internet forum!

Being an athiest has nothing to do with it. Whether the Pope has a soul or not, his cognitive schema in your mind is still alive, and will be there until you die. So really, his legend lives on. This is why forgiving the Pope is more about yourself than it is about him.

[Dookus]

132. I no more care to forgive the Pope

than I care to forgive Ronald Reagan.

I maintain that forgiveness in such a context is entirely meaningless. I didn't know them. They weren't in my family. They were political figures with whom I disagreed.

Should I "forgive" Mussolini? Why? It's meaningless.

[JohnnyCougar]

158. Mussolini is hardly comparable to the Pope.

And you are arguing from both sides here, as well.

You want to be able to be critical of the Pope because his policies negatively affected your life in one way. Now you say you didn't know him and that forgiving him is meaningless.

If they are meaningful enough for you to disagree with them, then they are meaningful enough to forgive.

[Dookus]

164. I never said they were comparable

they were just examples of people whose politics I disagreed with vehemently. Aren't ya glad I did't say Hitler? :P

And you're talking nonsense about forgiveness. I don't believe it's possible to truly forgive people you don't know - especially dead ones.

Nor does it matter. I am not consume by hate for the Pope. I disagree with his politics in the same way I disagreed with Ronald Reagan and that I disagree with George W. Bush. I have no interest in forgiving any of them - it's a silly idea.

[JohnnyCougar]

173. Fine...

I'll give you credit for using the second least creative example in Mussolini :P

But forgiveness for me means much more. I cannot live with a clear mind unless all my enemies are eventually forgiven. Even the worst human does things for human reasons. Forgiving someone else means you are coming to terms with part of yourself that might not be perfect as well. Forgiveness is truth...learning the truth about humanity, and then trying to overcome our faults.

[Dookus]

178. so explain in detail

what this forgiveness of yours means.

How have you forgiven George W. Bush? How does it change your attitudes toward him? Do you oppose him less? Do you feel differently about his policies?

How about (wait for it...) Hitler. Now that you've forgiven him, is there any difference in how you feel about his actions? Are you more inclined to speak kindly about him? Do you "understand" him better?

Seriously - if I "forgave" the pope the way you want me to, what would be different? Do you think I would be less inclined to disagree with his policies?

[JohnnyCougar]

200. Forgiveness of these people

means that I have understood that abuse of power is part of the human spirit. Bush abuses it, and Hitler abused it...both in similar fashions.

Anyone in a situation of power has the potential to abuse it. By forgiving these people, I am admitting that I, too, have the potential to abuse my power if I ever end up in a position to. Acknowledging this fact will help me to deal with the fact that temptation is real, and it may tempt me someday. Therefore, when I am looking out for it, I can better avoid it.

They are human just as I am human, the difference is that I will come to terms with and beleaguer my own temptations before I am able to excercise them.

It's not at all about agreeing or disagreeing with their policies, as you suggest.

[Dookus]

204. but you haven't answered

how I would act differently.

Let's, for arguments sake, say I have forgiven the pope. Would anything I posted in this thread be inconsistent with that?

How would you know?

How should I speak out against policies promulgated by people I've forgiven? How would it be different from what I've done here?

[JohnnyCougar]

210. How YOU would act differently?

That's for you to answer, not me. Ovbiously, you're not getting it right now.

I fold. I have better things to debate right now.

[Dookus]

225. yes

I'm sure you do.

You know exactly what I was asking, and you can't answer it, so you claim better things to do.

As for me, I have to go floss my cats.

[JohnnyCougar]

228. Oh, silly me!

I forgot to look at your sig line!

No wonder you are asking me to answer your own personal questions!

[Dookus]

229. ah!

the 4,295th silly insult based on my sigline.

Thanks... that's how I know when my opponent has no point to make.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

180. Everyone's different. You can't live with enemies, you need to forgive

many people cannot. Not everyone comes from the same background, has the same life experiences, and comes to self-realization in the same way. So it's presumptuous for you to believe EVERYONE should forgive the Pope, when he impacted many people's lives negatively. That's very idealistic, but it's not how people operate.

How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

[JohnnyCougar]

197. I'm not being presumptuous.

I am just saying that forgiving people works for me.

I made a suggestion, not a demand.

And in response to your question about my age, you already asked me a few weeks ago, and I responded with my age.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

199. That wasn't me who asked you

:shrug:

well. maybe I don't remember.

I think I've only talked to you about sports before.

[JohnnyCougar]

208. Yes, it was you.

I looked it up in the archives. It was in the Chicago vs. Boston beer thread.

And I have talked with you about various things before...you provided multiple snarky and disrespectful comments when we were debating the merits of screaming "vote fraud" or not before we had any proof. I believe your name was "Rational Rose" then.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

213. I seriously don't remember anything about those threads except

a defensive attitude, which is plainly evident this evening. Have a good night.

[jonnyblitz]

22. I will not appreciate ANYTHING from somebody who claims all

gays are EVIL. PERIOD. this is a progressive discussion board, don't expect everybody to embrace your pope if he holds views such as that. sorry.

[JohnnyCougar]

25. I never said anything about embracing him.

But I do expect people to forgive him. If a gay leader stood up and said all Catholics are evil, but he was a good person otherwise, do you think I shouldn't appreciate all the good work he did?

[Dookus]

40. well

if he was a good catholic, he'd have to be penitent and confess his error. As far as I know, he did not. I will apply the same rules for forgiveness against him as the church applies against me.

[ultraist]

214. "But I do expect people to forgive him." Who made you THE moral authority?

How presumptious. Just because your religion teaches that "forgiveness" is mandatory, that doesn't mean you have the right to impose that religious belief on others.

Please, stop making demands that we comply to YOUR religious beliefs.

Live and let live.

[JohnnyCougar]

223. My religion also says it's wrong to kill...

but I suppose I shouldn't force that view upon anyone here.

You should try forgiving someone for once. It makes you feel better. It has nothing to do with Dogma, it just has to do with life experience.

[ultraist]

237. LMAO! So, you are assuming I have never forgiven anyone?

You are making a lot of assumptions about someone you know nothing about. I'm an adult, why are you telling me what I "should" do and "what makes you feel good?"

I bow to your superiority. NOT.

Let me guess, Christian white male hetereo, age 24-34. Am I right?

:bounce:

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

245. I'm going to bed.

I'll look in on you in the morning!
Tape it for me, wouldja?
:popcorn:

[ultraist]

248. Damn! I missed it. Must have been full of insults if it was deleted.

Sweet dreams!

[guinivere]

27. I don't know anybody that agrees with all

of the Pope's positions.

I have a dear friend X. His partner Y dies of stomach cancer. I went with X to the church to make arrangements. The priest there knew X and Y were partners. There were many gay couples among the parishoners. They were all treated as valuable members. The funeral Mass was lovely. The priest gave a moving sermon/eulogy.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. You may not know the definition

pa·tron·ize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-nz, ptr-)
tr.v. pa·tron·ized, pa·tron·iz·ing, pa·tron·iz·es
To act as a patron to; support or sponsor.
To go to as a customer, especially on a regular basis.
To treat in a condescending manner.

If we do not agree with the policies, we do, in our perception of our own ethics, have an obligation to say so and not flatter those who we disagree with , with the intent to manipulate them. That would be condescending.

[beam me up scottie]

63. Hitler loved animals.

I'm not comparing jp2 to hitler, but by your logic I should condemn any criticism of his policies either.

edit sp, damn opera

[JohnnyCougar]

90. I doubt Hitler loved animals.

It is a trait of the sociopath to have no respect for animals' feelings.

[beam me up scottie]

100. Look it up.

If you're done telling me how wonderful the pope was, that is.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

148. Whatsa matta?

Don't like the warm welcome we gave your sermon?
Next time ask.

[Red State Rebel]

17. Last night in the Lounge we had a great conversation on religion

It really went very well - there is hope!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2974331&mesg_id=2974331

[JohnnyCougar]

21. Wow...didn't see that! Thanks for pointing that out!

Maybe we're not all turning into FReepers anyways!

[LoZoccolo]

24. We done been FReeps, G.

I often chalk it up to the idea that the Internet, on DU as well as FR, has fewer mechanisms to weed out crazy people and the socially retarded who waste your time with their issues as does traditional society. Since I've accepted this, I've been much calmer.

[beam me up scottie]

35. "who waste your time with THEIR issues"???

I'm SO terribly sorry to hear we've wasted your time with OUR issues.
:sarcasm:

So when posters bring up issues that don't concern you, you call them:
"crazy people" and "socially retarded"?

You seem to have a lot more in common with the freeps that we do.

[LoZoccolo]

39. I mean mental issues, not political issues.

Like five or six years ago it was a slang term to say someone had "issues". I think it came from Dr. Drew, the guy with the sex talk show, who would say it in earnest.

[Neshanic]

58. So people who disagree with you have issues?

What other wisdom do you have to impart on us?

[LoZoccolo]

66. People who claim they know what I'm really saying without asking me do.

That enough wisdom for now?

[Neshanic]

79. Yes, for now. You can expand on the latest fashion craze later...

How the the mid-century liberals are to blame for everything bad now.

[LoZoccolo]

80. Not liberals.

Radicals.

[Just Me]

92. "How the mid-century liberals are to blame for everything bad now."

:crazy:

[LoZoccolo]

174. It's a continuation of something from another thread.

I was basically making a point that the religious right partially arose from a percieved threat of communists banning religion, that the far left gave it an impetus. I guess the larger point is that we should choose our tactics wisely, anticipating reactions that could put us further in the hole.

[Just Me]

209. Gotcha'!!! n/t

[WinterStorm]

192. You sound like you have issues n/t

[LoZoccolo]

221. Thanks for going into them for me.

It helps.

[beam me up scottie]

29. WHAT?

You: "Everyone makes mistakes, has biases, and follows some ideological rule that is offensive to others"

His opinions on gays were just a wee bit more than "offensive".


You: "Learn to live with those that are ideologically different than you"

Like the church does?

snip
"The Vatican yesterday urged Catholic politicians to actively campaign against legalising gay marriages which it said were evil, deviant and posed a grave threat to society."
snip
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1010281,00.html

You: "If a feminist wants to say that men are the cause of evil in this world, yet does a lot of work to better this place for others, I would still heavily mourn the passing of her life"

The pope was NOT a feminist, quite the opposite in fact. He was a political figure who used his power to wage war against the rights of homosexuals. BIG DIFFERENCE.

How dare you tell people to "forgive his imperfections for the sake of dignity, civility, and your own self-respect"
Are you telling that to the victims of pedophilia who were not only protected by the vatican, but were packed off to other parishes so that they could continue to molest more young children?

Are you telling gays to ignore and forgive this:

"The guidelines, which were issued by the Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, also described gay sex as inhuman and gay couples adopting children as "doing violence"."? (also from Guardian link above)

You: "This Pope did much for a lot of people in this world"

Think so? Good for you, go agree with them if it makes you happy but you've got a lot of nerve telling DU'ers "If you are not warm and empathetic, at least try and fake it."

[JohnnyCougar]

33. You do nothing but prove my point and exemplify the problem.

Calm down and gather yourself. Show me the proof that the Pope approved the hiding of pedophiles.

"How dare I tell people to forgive?" -- I think that expression right there pretty much sums up wht you're headed to my ignore list.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Tell it to the victims.

The fact that he happened to be your personal hero doesn't negate the fact that he caused a great deal of pain and suffering during his time.

And I believe there is another political leader that has done a lot to promote human rights for "certain" individuals. Maybe you've heard of him,

GEORGE W. BUSH

edit sp

[JohnnyCougar]

46. Oh, knock it off!

I never said anything about him being my hero. My lips have not spoken the fantasies you attribute to them!

[beam me up scottie]

53. Really? Then why do you feel the need

to insult us and defend him?
In case you haven't noticed, this is a political forum, not a pity-party for pope-lovers.

[JohnnyCougar]

62. WHEN DID I INSULT YOU?!?

[beam me up scottie]

69. When you told me to

"fake" being "warm and empathetic"
Maybe you'd like to be told to "fake" an actual understanding of the issues surrounding people and their resentment of jp2?

[JohnnyCougar]

81. That was a snarky comment, but it certainly wasn't an insult.

It was made to shed light on people who weren't being warm and empathetic. If people have to fake it, then they are not being warm and empathetic.

Listen. The point is:

This Pope made mistakes. So did others. At least try and understand. I'm sure you have hurt others in your life. The Pope hurt you. Instead of hating him, learn why he made the mistakes he did, and be a good example to others as to how not to repeat those mistakes. That is all.

[beam me up scottie]

91. I don't hate him, I don't even give a shit about him.

I've been trying to be sensitive about this but I'm sick and tired of people being told to shut up under the guise of respecting the man.

Guess what? There are assholes everywhere, including here. And if you had bothered to look a little closer, you'd have noticed that most of the people who are rude and insensitive on this board are that way ALL OF THE TIME. Not just on this issue. Why should some people be given special treatment? I've heard plenty of catholics criticize him as well.

I'm a little sick and tired of going into gd and having some self-righteous poster tell me that I have to shut up.

And when I need assistance with being "warm and empathetic" I'll let you know.

[jonnyblitz]

64. LOL , "pity party for pope lovers"!! that was GOOD!!

:thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

72. :-)

nt

[Just Me]

107. Especially for the hard-hearted, tough-skinned, bloody-knuckled!!

Hardy, hardy, har har har :puke:

[beam me up scottie]

47. Read my post.

I said "the vatican" protected pedophiles which happened when HE was in charge. Since you absolve him of guilt you probably also believe reagan didn't know about Iran-Contra.

[Dookus]

50. Johnny

it's pretty clear that the Pope approved, either overtly or covertly, the sheltering and shuffling around of pedophile priests.

It is a travesty that Bernard Cardinal Law, who DEFINITELY sheltered such priests, will be given a vote for the next pontiff.

[JohnnyCougar]

57. I haven't seen where it is clear.

Maybe I haven't been keeping up with the news, but I haven't seen anything other than speculation that the Pope had anything to do with that. Anything at all.

[Dookus]

73. It is only not clear

if you think the most authoritarian pope of modern times was not involved in what his church was doing.

Why is Bernard Cardinal Law still a cardinal in Rome?

[JohnnyCougar]

83. Could you at least provide some evidence?

[Dookus]

113. Bernard Cardinal Law

has a job. That's all the evidence I need.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

151. He gave Cardinal Law a plum position in Rome, while Boston Catholics would

like him back here to face charges! :hi:

The Pope made a very timely appointment, wouldn't you say?

[stanwyck]

32. Although I agree, I have to say

the Freeperish emotional pleas with no facts are beneath DU. We have folks posting who are making psychological profiles of people they've seen briefly on TV. Michael Shiavo is being labelled a murderer by people who call him "Michael" and blather about his "controlling personality". Really? They know him? They're pychologists who have met with the man? No. It's just gossip and hate-radio trash talk. We've got DU folks channeling Ann Coulter. No facts, just screed.
You're right to say "show some courtesy and respect". That means not posting Faux news blather from Terri's Shiavo's 3rd grade friend and a former hospital employee who once saw Michael Shiavo in the corridor. That stuff is smelling up the board.

[Ladyhawk]

34. I'm sick of the flame wars, too. Sigh.

I've found myself even considering leaving DU or simply confining my activities to the lounge. Like many here, I have strong opinions, but I am going to try even harder not to offend. It's just not worth it. We're supposed to be sharing information, not ad hominem attacks.

But there's no sense in hanging around if there's always some kind of unproductive word war happening. Flaming doesn't exactly endear others to one's position.

Terry Schiavo and the Pope are both dead. I've seen nearly every conceivable argument surrounding their deaths and I have to conclude we're beating dead horse. They're dead. Let them both rest in peace.

Again: sigh.

[benny05]

183. I'm with you LH on that comment

I say rest in peace, both of them. But I have some concerns about the new generation of the Pope's seminary graduates, as reported on <i>60 Minutes</i> tonight.

[hue]

36. I'll willingly give my respect to someone who earns it!

I am human and I make mistakes.

1.)You speak about a powerful head of the Catholic church who is, in the eyes of the church regarding religous policy, infallible. So even though you say he may have made some mistakes I doubt his followers would recognize your defense of him.
2.) We can live with someone who is ideologically different than us, but can the oppressed whose lives he so tragically affected live? Can the starving children whose parents could not practice birth control live (and these numbers are in the millions)? Could those with AIDS and their partners and children who must (according to the Catholic church) be counseled not to use condoms live? What about the poor in third world countries who give their meger pennies to the church when it could have been used for their children?
3.) The pope lived in absolute luxury. Someone took care of his every need. Since he was the leader of a worldwide church I would think he would have had a shred of dignity and respect, but his arrogance precluded that possibility. He sought the public spotlight, but never deviated from the paternal rule of catholic law.
4.) I could never fake empathy, but to me it looks like the Pope did! I would have liked to see him sell one gold chalice--among the thousands of chalices and other works of art--to feed/clothe and shelter so many hungry children! Yet he used so many children in photo ops for his own image!

[JohnnyCougar]

70. By being human, that automatically qualifies you for earning respect.

At least, that's what you taught me.

[hue]

99. We are all born human...

But some people "evolve" or develop into sociopaths. As your Father taught you, "Power corrupts". Many men at the top (don't know too many women really at the top) are on such a power trip that they forget what its like to be human. "Dubya"--and those in his "in crowd" are prime examples.
There is much "infallible" power in the Catholic church. The belief that the Pope is infallible is, in my humble opinion, not only a mistake but a sin of arrogance (which is recognized as the first sin in Islam.)I think the Catholic church as an institution has seriously errored in accruing such wealth in the form of real estate, money, art works,etc. etc. etc. I just can't see Jesus Himself doing that--as His words were clearly against it.

[JohnnyCougar]

136. Hey now...nobody said the Pope is infallible.

In fact, my main point was that he is fallible.

[mondo joe]

219. No. Being human qualifies you for respect for your human rights.

Respect for a person is something earned.

[solinvictus]

37. NO WE ARE NOT TURNING INTO FREEPS!!!?W@!!!

YOU GODLESS HEATHEN ATHEIST PAGAN ABORTIONIST GUN GRABBING INEMEY OF THE NATION AND OUR GOD CHOSEN PRESIDENT WHO LOVES EVEYRTBODY AND IS A UNITER NOT A DIVIEDIER SO STOP SAYING THAT. WE ATRE NOT FREEPERS AND DONT EVEN SAY SUCH A THING BECAUISE ITS NOT TRUE. IF WE WERE FREEPERS ALL OUR POSTS WOULD LOOK LIKE THIS ONE AND THE AVERAGE IQ HERE WOULD DROP TO ABOUT 85. ;)

[JohnnyCougar]

43. IT's DemocRATS like YOU THAT ARE AIDING THE ENEMY!!!

OSAMA wanted John sKERRY to win!!! HE IS QUAKING IN HIS BOOTS NOW THAT BUSH THE AVENGER IS PRESIDENT AGAIN!!!

[Vektor]

45. Do freeps have a lot of flame wars?

I don't frequent their sites much, but I thought they stuck together like glue.

Also, I agree with everything you said except "If you show no sympathy for one death, you show no sympathy for all death."

I feel sympathy for the death of most people, but when I hear about the execution of rapist/serial killer, I can't lie and say that I feel too bad about that.

I see what you're saying, though.

[JohnnyCougar]

49. There are flame wars there just like here...

There have been a couple giant ones lately. Immigration policy was one of them. The Terry Schiavo one caused some as well. A good segment of that board is just batshit insane, and it is scaring the moderates away.

[Vektor]

56. Oh, wow...

I was surprised to hear some of the conservatives in my area (neocon valley!) say that they thought the Shiavo matter was between a husband and wife, and the Govt. should stay out of it. I expected them all to jump on the "pro-life" bandwagon, but many of them didn't.

[hue]

51. I don't think they allow for much thinking "outside their box" n/t

[solinvictus]

52. Ugly ones abound..

until RimJob deletes the thread. Lately, RimJob has been dropping paleo-cons and honest conservatives who don't toe the line on illegal immigration, theocracy, and Terri Schiavo. They have been cannibalizing their own over there.

[Vektor]

61. HAHA - The moderator's name is RIMJOB?!?!

Bwaaa-hahahahaha!

[JohnnyCougar]

65. No...it's Jim Robinson

Better know as "Rim Job" over here!

[Vektor]

68. I like that better...

I almost thought he actually called himself that. I'd probably like him better if he had that sense of humor.

[solinvictus]

71. No sense of humor there..

There's no Lounge or any sense of whimsy about life. There's a poetry corner and that's about it. Oh, and the daily Pray for Bush threads.

[Vektor]

77. I have noticed

that the vast majority of staunch righties are DECIDEDLY unfunny.

[Jesus Saves]

55. If sitting in a basement or some dirty apartment

in pee-stained dirty pajamas, ranting about 'revolution' when you're so out of shape a walk down the block would almost kill ya - if that makes one a freeper, then ya, there are freepers here.

[beam me up scottie]

75. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,

don't be so hard on yourself, not everybody thinks you're a freeper here.

[ultraist]

82. LMAO!. But many do think so.

:rofl:

[ulysses]

78. ? Interesting view of DUers you have there...

[Vektor]

84. Actually it's a myth

that Liberals are fat and out of shape. How could we be? We're all a bunch of vegans who live off organic produce and are always marching to protest SOMETHING, right?

Seriously, studies on obesity trends clearly show that the fattest states are the reddest states, and rural areas (red) are usually fatter that urban (blue.) Urbanites tend to walk everywhere - and vote Democrat.

Furthermore, the only time I, a Liberal, EVER had on pee stained pants was when John Kerry looked at me, smiled, and waved at a rally.

Then again, that may not have been pee. Ahem.

The only revolution I intend to start is a DANCE REVOLUTION.

My house has no basement.

[beam me up scottie]

95. ROFLMFAO!!!

nt
:rofl:
:yourock:

[Vektor]

96. I'm just getting started....

:crazy:

[ultraist]

147. LMAO!!!

Most of the "dirty" liberals I know have great bodies and are well to do. But, there many Democrats who are poor. How judgmental & UN-Democratic to put someone down because they cannot afford to buy real estate, but must live in a rental. Typical RW elitist mindset.

[Vektor]

166. It's definitely misguided...

And there's really no merit to the claim that Dems are poor and downtrodden and Republicans are wealthy and opulent. Stats show that Ph.D holders and those with Masters Degrees are far more likely to vote Democratic and to be of a more Liberal mindset.

In my experience and observation, it has always been the ignorant and undereducated who vote Republican.

The stereotype of the jobless, lazy Democrat is a huge fallacy perpetuated by the right wing. It pains them that we want to give more to our fellow man and take less for ourselves - so they try to say that we don't work for what we have and only want a "Government handout", when in fact we work extra hard to contribute more to the greater good. We are willing to pay taxes in order to benefit our society, and since they are not, and can't understand why anyone would be, they convince themselves that we support higher taxation to aid social programs so we can laze about and make them pick up the tab.

Which is a HUGE joke.

Anyone with half a brain knows that Liberals are more than willing to bust their ass and work their fingers to the bone in order to fund health care and other "socially liberal" causes. In other words, if it benefits humans, we'll work for it. All one need do is look at how many teaching and nursing positions are filled by Liberals. If those two professions don't benefit humanity, if those jobs aren't "hard work" and don't require education and ambition, I don't know what does.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

175. That's a great post-and it's SO true. The states with the best educational

system vote Democratic. Massachusetts, for example! ;-)

[Vektor]

177. That says something doesn't it?

Also, the teen pregnancy rates are sky-high in red states. Shocker, eh?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

186. And lowest in MA. MA also has the lowest divorce rate

and lowest infant mortality rate. The RW would say it's because we're a socialist welfare state! LOL. :crazy:

[Vektor]

193. Well then...

Socialism and welfare must be working, huh?

Seriously, it's because MA is well educated and Liberal leaning - that makes EVERYTHING better. :-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

88. Sounds like a view from another website...

*sniff sniff*

[jonnyblitz]

97. ...

*cough*

[Kathy in Cambridge]

103. Stinks like a three day old trout!

[Vektor]

109. I love your B.S. flag!

Also, how's the flood situation in MA? I'm a native myself, trapped in a neocon hellhole out West for the time being.

Hoping to visit again this summer.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

128. Worcester County and Western MA got the brunt of the flooding

but the Merrimack, the Concord and the Charles Rivers are near flood stage. If this keeps up, it should be a fun mosquito season. x(

Where are you from?

[Vektor]

140. Mosquitoes, no good.

I'm from Westport, but I'm currently living in a rural county in Northern CA. It's like another world out here. Geographically, it's very pretty, but socially and politically, it's a nightmare. I still weep with homesickness for MA.

Are you right in Cambridge?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

146. Now I remember! Did you change your user name?

Westport...farms...Horseneck Beach... the Back Eddy...god, what a gorgeous town!

[Vektor]

155. I haven't changed my name...

I have always had the same one. I did talk to some folks in MA on the MA forum during the last blizzard a few months ago. I was Vektor back then too. Oh, how I miss Westport. The Back Eddy is great, and the Baysider, too! It was the greatest place on earth to grow up.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

162. Massachusetts is beautiful, There is so much natural beauty on the South

Coast of MA! I can't wait for the summer.

Let us know when you visit and we'll have a DU gathering!

[Vektor]

169. I would LOVE THAT!

Are there a lot of DUers from your area?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

171. We usually get 30-40 at every gathering. We have HUGE one 4/23

with out of town DUers visiting! It should be fun! :-)

[Vektor]

172. Awww man!

I will be in San Francisco that weekend, but if there is anything going on in the mid-summer, let me know. I also want to try to attend some John Kerry events. I know he will be at the Doubletree in Lowell on 4/10, but I don't have enough time to plan for that. If you hear about anything else like that in the future, please let me know. I'd definitely travel to such a thing.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

182. Damn! I'm in Florida next weekend.

Otherwise I could rally some of the troops (many are from the northern 'burbs) and take you for drinks. Post a thread in the Lounge and I'm sure some of usual suspects will offer to meet up with you, if you have time. ETawful is from Lowell-he lives downtown.

[Vektor]

194. No, I won't be able to make it.

I meant that I won't have time to arrange to go to MA. So I won't be present for this event. I wish I were!

[JimmyJazz]

110. Do you thnk he's one and done?

Swoop 'n poop???

[Vektor]

115. I think so...

And gosh, I'm so wounded by his assessment.


:rofl:

[JimmyJazz]

104. Wow - you live in your parents' basement?

I'm sorry. And you probably smoke pot and don't have a job either, right? I mean, that would make you a real freeper, wouldn't it?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

112. I think your sig should be "Les Etats-Unis Pour Moi"!

:P

[JimmyJazz]

118. Crap - I'm not fluent - I just figured if one country was for him

the other must be for me - after all, if I don't like how the government is run, I'm just supposed to leave, right?

[WinterStorm]

207. Urine stained pajamas

How did you come up with that? Jesus Saves....:shrug:

[porphyrian]

94. "Liberals are supposed to be warm, empathetic people."

Says who? You aren't warm and empathetic to people who are angry and take the opportunity to vent and explore their anger here, you are critical and intolerant. It's not your place to tell other people how to act, though you have every right to voice your opinion, which is noted. If you have a valid complaint about someone violating the rules of DU, feel free to report them to an administrator, who will take care of the offense.

[JohnnyCougar]

121. HA! I'm not critical and intolerant!

Where did you get that idea? I posted my opinion about what was decent and what was indecent. I don't know how you construed this as "critical and intolerant."

It's not your place to tell other people how to act, though you have every right to voice your opinion, which is noted.

So what's your point? Am I telling people how to act, or am I voicing my opinion?

[porphyrian]

139. Are you unclear as to their definitions?

I can look them up for you. Through your post(s), you have expressed that you believe that there is a certain way to act here above and beyond the rules, and that acting otherwise is wrong. That is both your opinion and your telling people how to act. What exactly don't you understand now?

[JohnnyCougar]

163. Another DUer claimed by a victimhood complex...

I am merely editorializing on the proper way to behave in the wake of one's death. You yourself said I have this right. Yet you post rants about my post from the victim standpoint.

If your mind is so fragile that it feels threatened by my very reasonable post, I suggest you toughen up! It's a rough world out there!

[porphyrian]

232. What an incredible misinterpretation of what's written.

Either English isn't your primary language or you have an incredibly weak grasp of what's being written here. You're completely wrong, but nice stab. Keep trying.

[Geo55]

98. Well,

I came here to seek shelter from the storm.....and I found yet another
shitstorm...but, the winds are less .....I HAVE a home.

[beam me up scottie]

102. Climb aboard!

nt
:evilgrin:

edit: stupid mouse

[Geo55]

114. Thank you

[autorank]

105. LINKS PLEASE

:evilgrin: :sarcasm:

:mad: :puke: :spank: :rofl: :grr: :puffpiece: :tinfoilhat: :dunce: :freak:

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[sendero]

108. I can be..

... as opinionated and contentious as anyone here.

I'm not talking about the pope at the present time, because there is a time and a place for everything.

[beam me up scottie]

116. Funny, I only feel like talking about him

when someone tells me I CAN'T.

[Geo55]

124. Down , Scottie , down my boy.........lol

[beam me up scottie]

130. Sorry.

Been told to shut up about the pope all weekend, then last week it was "don't pick on christians" week, can't wait to see what I'll have to shut up about next week.
:mad:

[LibertyorDeath]

119. No....but there are to many fucking freeps on this board.

[Vektor]

125. I know, you just missed one!

They are everywhere. They mustn't be able to stay away from us sexy Liberals.

[tx_dem41]

123. You can always tell a really "good" thread by the way it zig-zags....

...down the page as you scroll! :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

131. If you don't like conflict, there's the hide the thread option

I think a zig-zag usually means an exchange of ideas, which is usually the goal of a discussion board. :-)

[tx_dem41]

133. I was just making a joke....

...probably shouldn't have used the "eyes-rolling".

Sometimes it does mean the exchanging of ideas. In this case, it doesn't. Oh well, back to work.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

143. I wasn't sure

:hi:

yes, it HAS been interesting here lately!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

126. DU is increasingly a petrie dish for PSY-OPS. More disruptions, etc.

COINTELPRO on the internet is what you are seeing here.

As the threat of the internet to the corporate propaganda machine grows, the same tactics of disinformation, obfuscation, discrediting, distraction, etc. will come into play to WEAKEN the collective intelligence of DU.

Just as politics was made ugly and nasty in the 1980s to dissuade participation and create a Brownshirt climate, the internet and DU is being dirtied up to keep people away.

Believe me, there is personality profiling software being used here by the CIA/DARPA types who do that kind of thing in order to target specific DU-ers because of their views and disable them.

The 2008 primaries and elections will be a shit storm at DU.


I know I have people who target me with vicious personal comments that I spend too much time responding to. My mistake. Live and learn.

[Geo55]

134. Oh.....

that I could be worthy of such a target

"Believe me, there is personality profiling software being used here by the CIA/DARPA types who do that kind of thing in order to target specific DU-ers because of their views and disable them"

If you're watchin' me , an' ya want ta take me out....bring it on.
Ain't worth livin' in a police state.

[tx_dem41]

141. Wow...

impressive. :eyes:

Go ahead, put me on your list.

[Just Me]

157. No doubt about that, at all!!!

I wonder if I'll still be posting on DU in 2008. There's so much that could happen between now and then.

[WinterStorm]

202. Thats been the "freeper" plan all along

Most of the hard core democrats are gone.

[Jesus Saves]

137. If buying into right wing spin

regarding your fellow Democrats makes ya a freeper, then yeah, there's freepres here.

If spinning all kinds of crazy theories about child sex rings in the White House backed up with little or no evidence makes you a freeper, then ya, there's freepers here.

[Vektor]

142. How about spinning

all sorts of crazy theories about Rush Limbaugh felating his dog's neuticles?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3418020&mesg_id=3418020&page=

Because I'd like to perpetuate that rumor right here and now.

[beam me up scottie]

145. *snort*

:spray:
You WERE really just getting started, weren't you?
:popcorn:

[Vektor]

150. I think it stands to reason...

That Rush Limpballs is the sort of man who'd tea-bag a phony dog scrote.
What do you think?

[beam me up scottie]

156. I can't say...

I'm waiting for our friend to tell me what to think.
He IS the expert, after all.

[Vektor]

170. He sure is...

an expert in what, I don't know, but surely in SOMETHING.

[Geo55]

149. What ?

you say Oxyhead has synthetic testicle INPLANTS !!! ?????

[Vektor]

152. He endorses

phony dog testicles. They are implants for dogs that replace the testes after the dog has been neutered. Because some right-wingers can't stand the thought of their dog not looking like "a guy".
It is SO wrong.

[Geo55]

160. Well,

SURE ! wouldn't want my pooch walkin' 'round feelin' "less" than the man ( er, ...I mean dog) that he is !

[beam me up scottie]

165. Do they have silicone implants for

spayed females?
And how soon before they market fake feline testicles?
(my cat Cecil want's to know)

[Vektor]

167. HAHAHA

My cat Moby is also interested in feline testicle implants. We should get those guys on a mailing list or something.

[beam me up scottie]

176. Si Ne mME uPP, i hAaV KrrReddItt KaRRd

Sorry, I went to the loo and Cecil took over, he didn't give you my credit card number did he? He's done that a few times when I was at work.

[Vektor]

179. He did...

And he ordered a truckload of "KITTY-PORN"

HAHAHAHAHAHA

As well as some extra large feline neuticles.

[beam me up scottie]

184. Damn cat!

Now the FBI (feline division) will be here again. Last time he played dumb, like he didn't know how to use the computer. I'm still paying off fines when they busted me for that illegal catnip he had growing in the basement.

[Vektor]

190. Crafty little buggers aren't they?

My cat Photo-shopped an illicit photo of me and John Kerry in a compromising position and sent it to campaign headquarters, claiming I did it while in the throes of a lewd fantasy.

SS was knocking down my door after that nonsense.

This was all because I bought him the cheap cat litter on sale, instead of "Fresh Step".

Rumor has it John loved the picture, though.

[beam me up scottie]

205. Oh, thanks ALOT.

Cecil was looking over my shoulder and you gave him ideas.
:rofl:
Cecil want's to know if he can call Moby tomorrow (I don't think it's a good idea but I'm afraid to say no)

[Vektor]

224. I think the two of them

could cause more than a boat-load of trouble together. Just look at Moby. You can tell he's no good.

[beam me up scottie]

230. THAT is hysterical.

Stoned, were we? They look sooooooooooooooo innocent, don't they?
Cecil's big and fat, white with grey patches, tongue hangs out a lot.
Got 3 more boys, all just as bad. Garbage Pail Kids, I call them.
Newton, Beaker and Alfie are his partners in crime. I never know what I'm going to find when I get home.
Damn, I have some photos of my boys on my web page but I'll have to transfer them to a dumpsite before I can post them.
I use opera and I'm still figuring out the details on posting pix. I did my avatar at work. Pinhead's my hero.

[beam me up scottie]

161. You think he might be their

"liberal detector" on freeperland?
You know, like that Spongebob-hating fundie group has a "homosexual detector"?

[Vektor]

181. Are you serious!?!?

They have a homosexual detector?!?!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Ok, sorry, it's more frightening than funny.

But I have to ask, from where are they getting their frame of reference? How do a bunch of fundies know what to look for in a homosexual?

[beam me up scottie]

189. I'll have to see if I can find the link.

It was from an article that was circulated around du a few months ago.
Definitely one for the "you couldn't make this stuff up" file.
Oh, it also said something about the words tolerance and diversity being code for the gay agenda.
Real tin foil stuff. I'm sure they've pulled it from their website from now, maybe another du'er has it, I'll check.
It was priceless.

[Vektor]

191. Good lord

What a bunch of nuts.

I think tolerance and diversity are code words for, uh, tolerance and diversity....

[meganmonkey]

144. Not that I disagree with your whole premise

but if you don't want flame wars, don't start them. Don't participate in them. There are a lot of people here, some of whom are disrputors (freeper or otherwise), and there are bound to be irrational arguments and flame wars. So you can hide threads. Put people on ignore. Alert on them if they cross the line. For every, say, 60,000 people you meet in life, there are likely some you avoid. Out of the 60-something thousand people here, there are some maybe you should avoid. "Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives." (from the rules). As far as I can tell, that can include more than half of all people in the US, and lots of folks outside our borders who are interested in participating. That's a hell of a lot of people. Too many people to ever agree on anything. And everyone communicates differently. Your post won't change that.

From your post:
"Learn to live with those that are ideologically different than you."

I suggest thinking about that some more.

[JohnnyCougar]

153. ok...

But there's a difference between respectfully disagreeing with one's policies and openly voicing apathy and flippancy about someone's death. I'm not saying people who are against the Pope should have no voice, I'm just saying that they can act civily in his time of death.

[beam me up scottie]

159. What did you think would happen?

I never bashed the guy, not once, but this is a perfect example of a flame war that starts by putting people on the defensive.
You piss off everybody right from the start, nobody's going to listen to the point you're trying to make.
I've never seen you do this before. What's up?

[Geo55]

154. Zaaaacky......well put nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

185. Flame-bait.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

196. And this surprises you? it cracks me up...

the ones complain' are the ones that are flamin'. ;-)

[JohnnyCougar]

216. Yes...as you can see, I have flamed everyone that disagrees with me here

This thread is full of me calling people names and such. :eyes:

[lonestarnot]

187. Come on now buck up...flamin' is fun at times!

[noamnety]

195. Silly me

I thought the Day of Silence wasn't until April 13.

[ultraist]

211. Nanny threads are "special pleadings"

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

Fallacious Arguments

Special Pleading (Stacking The Deck):

using the arguments that support your position, but ignoring or somehow disallowing the arguments against.

Uri Geller used special pleading when he claimed that the presence of unbelievers (such as stage magicians) made him unable to demonstrate his psychic powers.

---------
Special pleadings here often employ ad hominem attacks in that they make the claim that one who posts an opposing view is:

"uncivil"
"disrespectful"
"exhibiting intolerance towards religion"
"insensitive"
"showing bad decorum"
"unforgiving"
"un-liberal"

etc.

--------

[JohnnyCougar]

217. PURE HOGWASH!!

I'd have better luck :banghead: than trying to be reasonable on here!

[mondo joe]

218. I'm not warm or empathic and I don't fucking want to be.

I'm fair and I'm honest and I'm ethical. For anyone who feels that's not enough: don't put your shit on me.

YOU want to be warm and empathic? Try empathizing with people who were treated like shit by a man and are now asked to be respectful toward him.

[JohnnyCougar]

220. LOL!

I'm not warm or empathic and I don't fucking want to be

That's obvious!

[mondo joe]

222. Good. Now that you're grasping the obvious maybe you can move

on to the less obvious. Like why can't YOU be empathic to the many people marginalized by this pope? You know, the same ones you want to feign respect or reverence.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

227. When you tell us we need to "do a reality check" you are not being very

empathic at all.

"The people who show no sensitivity towards the death of a public figure revered and respected by more people in this world than anyone else probably need to do a reality check."

The pope forgave a man who shot him - can you just ignore people who don't want to kiss his ass?

[JohnnyCougar]

231. THAT'S YOUR EVIDENCE?!?!

Good Lord! You poor thing...I told you to do a reality check...do you want me to get you some tissue?

Please...lose the victim complex (it's really getting old)...otherwise I'm going to have to put you on ignore.

[beam me up scottie]

234. OH NO!

You don't want that, look what happened to me!

[ultraist]

244. OH NO! If insults don't shut us up, we might be put on ignore.

:cry:

Boo fucking hoo!

I don't know if I can handle all of these threats. I'm sooo skerred. :scared:

NOT!
:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

246. Once again,

:spray:
you owe me a new keyboard!
:rofl:

[mondo joe]

235. Victim complex? Aren't you the advocate for "warmth and empathy"?

Looks like it's good for others to practice but maybe not yourself.

[JohnnyCougar]

236. Warmth and empathy for those that want it.

You yourself stated that you don't want to be warm and empathetic. Now you're accusing me of not being warm and empathetic?

I hope you see now why I called you Mr. Projection.

Anyhow, I am not giving warmth and empathy for crybabies that act like they have been victimized for the soul sake of argument on a message board. Take those high school tactics elsewhere.

Also, I see that "Ignored" has posted a response to my post as well. Nice try, buddy, but you're on ignore. You have nothing meaningful to say!

[beam me up scottie]

247. Tell him I'm crushed.

Oh, and add this:
:nopity:

[ultraist]

239. "Mr. Projection" "victimhood complex" "cry babies" ad hominem attacks

Ad hominem attacks abound in your posts.

"You poor thing."

:eyes:

WWJD?

[JohnnyCougar]

240. Those are descriptions of behavior.

Clearly you don't know an ad hominem attack if it bit you on your arse.

Descriptions of behavior are not attacks on the person. Only one playing the victim would believe something as silly as that. You are only proving me right!

[ultraist]

241. Insulting a person is CLEARLY an ad hominem attack, including name calling

Clearly, you don't know an ad hominem attack. LOOK IT UP, lil' buddy, white, hetero, "christian" boy.

NAME CALLING: "Mr. Projection" "cry baby"
INSULTS: "victimhood complex" as well as many others you've thrown at people in this thread.

That is outrageously cruel to say to a Gay person who is speaking out against an oppressive force. In fact, it is abusive. Real "christian" like; warm and empathetic. :eyes:

[JohnnyCougar]

242. Pointing out actual behavior is not name calling...

By the way, you wouldn't be trying to classify me into a stereotypical category, would you? Because that is the act of a prejudiced bigot. Is that what you are? A prejudiced bigot? Please tell me no!

[ultraist]

243. I'm stating facts.

Am I wrong? Are you not a white hetereo "christian" male?

[beam me up scottie]

249. Yes! That's exactly what you are, Ultraist.

A bigot, all gays are bigoted. Your people are like that because you've never had to face discrimination before.
:eyes:

[ultraist]

251. lOl!

But, I'm not gay!!! LMAO!!!

I'm a white hetereo female. That's ok! Your point is well taken.

As you know, SOME of us, don't consider Gay RIGHTS to be a Gay "victimhood complex, crybaby" issue. We feel it's ethical to fight HUMAN rights.

.

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

253. I'm right on at least two counts, male Christian

And from what you have written, I find it hard to imagine you are Gay. Your worldview seems typically white patriarchial.

[chlamor]

233. Why do we need a Pope?

Figurehead.

Just a grand symbol of the patriarchy. Father figure dominion(ation).

Let's move on to different worlds.

[Moderator]

252. Locking

This has been a self-fulfilling prophecy.