20,000 more Americans can kiss tech jobs goodbye

[LiberalEsto]

A tiny news blip buried in today's WashPost business section reports that an additional 20,000 H-1B visas will be made available starting May 12 for foreign workers so they can work for U.S. businesses.

Supposedly these visas are only for foreigners who have advanced degrees from U.S. educational institutions.

These visas are issued by the Dept. of Homeland Security's immigration agency, but have been around for years. They supposedly help corporations hire "badly-needed" tech people (such as computer IT specialists)because there is a "shortage" of trained Americans.

Anyone in the IT field can tell you this is bull----.

What really happens is that U.S. companies love to hire programmers and software developers who make $40,000 a year to replace Americans who were earning $60,000 or more. Managers can work these people half to death, because they fear losing their visas.

I know many unemployed IT professionals who were replaced by people with H-1B visas. It's almost impossible for Americans to find work in IT any more; some have been unemployed 3 or more years.

This is an absolute disgrace.
Why should Congress allow experienced American IT workers be thrown out of jobs just to accommodate corporations looking for cheap labor?

:grr: :bounce:

[cap]

1. how can we organize against this...

[LiberalEsto]

2. Unions? nt

[makhno]

22. Exactly

But try talking about unions to some of the libertarian losers that seem to be totally overrepresented among software engineers.

[BigBearJohn]

28. Sign up NOW: www.techsunite.org

Techsunite.org is the nationally-oriented web site of WashTech/CWA, the nation's leading union for high-tech workers. We are ensuring that our voices get heard and our needs are met. Today, job security, health care, retirement plans, offshore outsourcing and visas are on our minds more than ever. From Silicon Valley to Boston, high-tech workers are joining our national network-to raise our voice and make a difference. Now it is time for you to join our movement at http://www.washtech.org/join

[losdiablosgato]

41. I love that site.

[SHRED]

3. Some article(s) links

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35832-2005Apr7.html

Bill Gates sucks!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/27/AR2005042701353.html

[LiberalEsto]

6. Thanks for posting these

I tried to find today's WP article in the online edition but couldn't find it. It's only a paragraph on Page E-2.

If Congress ends the limit on the number of H-1B visas as Bill Gates wants, any American with scientific or technical skills will be at risk of being replaced by cheaper sci-tech workers from overseas.

Seems to me that middle-class, college-educated Americans are getting screwed more and more each day.

[TX-RAT]

12. Nurses too

I read a story about a hospital bringing in nurses from India, to fill the shortage of qualified nurses in it's area.
I wonder what their pay will be?

[demnan]

4. First they stopped making electronics

and I didn't protest that the only electronics were made in Japan

Then they outsourced the auto assembly lines and I didn't protest, because I didn't work on an assembly line in Michigan.

Then they stopped the textile mills, but I didn't work in a textile mill so I kept silent.

Then they gave my programming job to a recent immigrant from India, and I looked around and there was no one employed to stand with me to keep my job.

[gpandas]

14. thanks for the truth! n/t

[Bronco69]

5. I think it's time for a national strike.

We should have done it back when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers just to show them we won't stand for it. If people don't start standing up to these tyrants we are going to be in serious trouble!

[zalinda]

9. Sorry, but that's the only thing I agreed with

Reagan on. It was illegal for them to strike. There was other ways to get their message out, instead they took the fasted route.

zazlinda

[Jose Diablo]

10. Others could disagree n/t

[makhno]

24. Strikes should not be illegal

Reducing the production capacity of capital is the one and only effective weapon workers have. The controllers' actions were morally justified. After all, strikes were illegal in Socialist Poland as well and yet Solidarity rightfully disregarded the law.

[zalinda]

34. The strike wasn't legal, under the law

that was the point. I forget the reason, but I know that it wasn't legal and that's why they were fired. Now, what they should have done, which wouldn't have gotten them fired was have rolling sick outs. It would have taken more time to prove their point, but it would have gotten done, and they still would have had their jobs.

zalinda

[sweetheart]

13. I agree, it is the only way

A general strike of american businesses demanding an end to corporate
personhood. At first they'd pretend it wasn't happening, but then
it would shake the corporate congress to the core. They'd go after
certain groups to try and get them back on the job, but after that
failed, they'd have no choice but to give in.

A general strike is how we got an 8 hour working day... and the
primitive labour rights we DO have today. They will not listen to
reason, only direct action.

[insane_cratic_gal]

7. I'm a techie

in 2001 of Aug, i spent 15,000 on an education in the CS field.

I've worked in and out of the tech market for the last 4 years, but with each year jobs become more sparse.

what's worse, I was hard press to come up with the 15,000 in the first place. These companies are consolidating the field too, when you get hired on they want the Network Admin, Hardware, and Programmer all rolled into one.

It's not just the visa's that are hurting us, it's the helpdesk jobs going to Bob with a forced english accent in India! Who can't solve your problem anyway except by telling you to reformat!

Most will say but those are low paying tech jobs, who cares. I do, I would take one of those jobs in a heart beat! 30k is more then what I am making now, which is nothing because I'm unemployed atm.

[demnan]

8. Yeah I've gotten calls from Bob Robinson

I laugh in his face when he calls me (not beligerent) I just say, "I work for a company run by a lot of Indian people. I like Indian people and I recognize the accent, so please don't try to be Bob Robinson when you're really Pankaj Singh." They usually don't know what to say to that.

By the way, what is your specialty and where do you live? There are still some tech jobs in the D.C. area, if you're interested in relocating (and can stand the expensive housing and horrific traffic).

[LiberalEsto]

20. We're in the DC area and see a lot of unemployed techies

and a lot of underemployed ones, too. But I hope there are some IT jobs left for Americans here.

At one branch office of my husband's company, there is one American computer person surrounded by a dozen Indians. Many of their American co-workers have been laid off and replaced. My husband struggles to keep his job by working 60-hour weeks.

Housing prices have gotten horrendous here -- a firefighter or a teacher can no longer afford a house in Montgomery County, Maryland. The way companies bring in Indian workers is by housing them in big dorms at minimal rent.

[Double T]

11. Won't Be Long Before We Will All Be Working In The Rice Paddy.....

...Be Conscious Of The Products You Buy, Buy American Made Goods When You Can. Boycott Goods From US Corporations That Have Moved Their Operations Overseas.

[gpandas]

15. too late,tt-look at your shoes n/t

[Double T]

16. I Won't Need Shoes When I'm Working In The Rice Paddy....

....Barefoot Standing In Water

[Ravenseye]

17. Part Truth - Part Spoiled

I worked for a consulting company in 1999 per bubble burst and was making 50k as a developer. Over that year the starting salaries rose to 60k...70k...Soon they hired a developer fresh out of school, for me to train, at 80k. I was still making 50k. This new kid had no idea what to do. Sure he could do some basic programing, but he had no idea about the specific stuff we were doing, or actually even the languages, plus it was his first job...ever...I demanded a raise.

Soon I got a new job working for a different company making 90k a year. We played foosball alot. Tournaments. Sat around. When I first got there I didn't do anything for 2 weeks. I kept going to the VP of Engineering saying "Hey what do you want me to do?"

That company folded, for good reason, and I started my own company and have been doing that for 3 years.

I never should have been making 90k. 50k was generous and that was in Boston. A programmer SHOULD be making about 40k. The problem is that so many tech jobs are located in some of the most expensive areas of the country. Instead of relocating out of Boston, San Francisco, and New York City they want to hire H1-B's or pay people less.

I've even had to hire for these jobs. Believe me...if they can get an american in over an h1-b they will just because it's much less of a headache and you never know the quality with the h1-b's...They just don't want to pay the pre-bubble salaries anymore.

Tech workers in this country were spoiled five years ago. I know a number of poeple who were out of work for a long time. Why? Because they didn't want to accept less money, or not as cool a position, or whatever. I even know someone who turned down a company a few years ago because he didn't like the types of chairs they had in the office. All the while bitching about how they can't find a job. The jobs are there, but we were all overpaid before. Starting development jobs now are 40k jobs if you're lucky. It's not because of h1-b's.

[sinkingfeeling]

18. I'm not sure I can agree with you. I started in the 'IT' business way

before it was IT. It was called data processing in the 60's and 70's. I worked for the same computer manufacturer for 30 years and ended up as a Senior IT Specialists...I was making about $90K when I retired (actually, I was told to retire). I accepted a system programmers' position at $55K. I certainly don't think someone who has 30+ years in the business and can do consulting work is getting too much money at $90K.

[Ravenseye]

19. No I agree with you

If you're say a systems architect with 30 years of experience yeah you should be making 90k-100k or so. That's only if you're good though. I know plenty of people who have 5, 10, 20, even 30 years of experience and yet still can't program their way around the broad side of a barn so to speak. The older 'bad' ones tend to be set in certain ways of doing things to the point where they can't accept a new direction.

I was hiring a mid-position one time...experience needed...lead developer type position under an architect. Guy came in who was maybe 45-50 years old. I ran through my normal getting to know him routine and he seemed like a nice guy so I asked him to show me how he'd solve a simple problem on the white board using code. Syntax didn't have to be perfect, I just wanted to see how he'd handle it. Very common test, just something to see how the developers brain works. There was an easy obvious answer, a better more complex answer using even less code, and a more complex one using even less...just to see how they'd react.

The guy flatly refused to stand up and do the problem. I assuaged him that I wasn't recording score on his syntax, I just wanted to see how he'd solve a problem with code. He still refused. We finished the interview and I didn't hire him.

To this day I don't know if he actually knew how to program.

Anyway my point is that if you're good and have 30 years of experience then you should be going for some sort of architect position and it should be well paid. If you're just going to be a programmer which is what these h1-bs mostly will be for, 40k is reasonable.

[bpilgrim]

32. "The older 'bad' ones"

maybe it's your attitude and prejudice that cloud your perception?

if you didn't care about syntax why couldn't he talk about how he would solve the problem rather than asking him to preform on the spot?

i've been to plenty of interviews and never been asked to write code on the 'black board' during the interview... sure i've had occasional tests pre-interview or discussed different strategies for dealing with problems but if your a real programmer you usually need to be very focused and in the 'zone' when writing code. also, coding is often an iterative process so to just whip something up unexpectedly is probably unfair, and not giving you real insight into their abilities, IMO.

anyone buying the trained humans from that Geo is better than the trained humans from this Geo is a fool... it's ALL bout the M.O.N.E.Y

also if your writing web applications/pages on windows your doomed to boot :evilgrin:

peace

[Ravenseye]

35. Disagree

First off I don't think my perception is clouded.

I've interviewed hundreds of developers of all ages and nationalities, etc and he was the ONLY one who refused to solve the problem. The only one.

And I'm sorry. Part of that test was just to confirm that the person knows how to program. Do they know what a Do While loop is? Do they know what a global variable is? Before I started becoming involved in the interview process people were hired who didn't have a freaking clue what to do as far as programing. NOT testing programing aptitude is bad tech interviewing imho. It's helped me find real gems in the past. People who weren't impressing me in any other way, then step up and hit one out of the park, who I've hired on the spot.

If you need to be 'in the zone' to handle the problem I was throwing out then you shouldn't have been in the room at all. I know the zone. I live in the zone. I get my best work done in the zone. I can still do what amounts to a logic problem using code on a whiteboard though. If you don't want the job, dont' do the problem. It's exactly what I"m talking about. Stuck up attitudes of American programmers.

If you've been tested pre-interview or discussed strategies that's exactly what this is, just combined with a single interviewer.

As far as my hiring, money is a factor, but I just want someone who can do the job. I don't care where they're from. If I can hire an american I prefer it cause it's less hastle. If you don't want to work for 40k a year as a basic programmer, then don't. Go into another field, cause that's all you should make as one.

[bpilgrim]

36. "a basic programmer"

what does that mean... the language, entry level, or what?

if it was entry level maybe the older experienced guy was just insulted ;->

anyways, my POINT was that programming takes a high level of concentration and unless you had some kind of SPECIAL on the spot programming requirements, which it doesn't sound like you needed ('basic programmer) it probably would be better handled in a pre-interview written test.

programming is a mix of ART&SCIENCE achieved through an iterative process that usually requires deep concentration.

like i said, maybe it's your perspective thats clouded.

peace

[Ravenseye]

39. LOL

10 Home
20 Print "Obviously I meant entry level. Ha Ha."
30 End

As far as maybe he was insulted, I don't know. He acted weird at it. As I said I've been on maybe 6 tech interviews in my life, and have run over 100 of them. In all the ones I've ever been on, and in all the ones I've given there has been a programming question given, with someone there to talk about it while you're doing it, either on paper, or on a whiteboard.

I had the programming question in my interviews at first becuase I was told to do it. Once I was hiring on my own I kept doing it because I found it helpfull to gauge a programmers reaction.

If you're an architect with good references and 30 years experience coming in for a Lead Architect type role, I wouldn't do that at all. I'd talk to them about what sort of projects they'd led, how they work with their developers. Some examples they want to share with me, etc

My point is that programming is a mix of art and science. It's not just "hey do you know c++?" it's about seeing how they think through a problem. Yes it's HARD to do it on the whiteboard. It's HARD to be under pressure with someone watching and you're nervous and you're not sure about the syntax becuause even though this is a Java job you'd most recently be working in .Net and the syntax is all different...It's HARD to look at a problem and have to try and program it in a way you never have before. It's not normal.

And yet over 99% of people I've interviewed have hopped up and done it. 30-40% well, less than 10% really great. I've hired people that just tried to do it even though they failed. I've not hired people that did it really well.

You've mentioned that my perspective is clouded a couple times. How? What is clouding my persepctive.

[bpilgrim]

40. i pointed it out in the subject line

and i said maybe. it's really just how you came across, to me, in your written txt... but you know how tricky that can be ;->

anyways, like i said above... doin it on M$ probably means it's a lost cause :evilgrin:

but my main reason for even being in this thread is to express my frustration at outsourcing our tech jobs.

it is done mainly because of the $$$.

if you want to debate that, kewl... but i apologize for butting my nose into your hiring practices since i really don't care about that... it's been my experience to show examples of what i've done in the past and discuss strategy vs real-time coding... if it comes up, and it is one of the languages i know i guess it wouldn't be a big deal =)

peace

[Ravenseye]

42. It is because of $$$ and they'll get what they pay for

I had a long response written up but it's not necessary...This quote sums it up...

"Last year was a good one for Americans: 65,000 participated in the local (science) fairs that are used to select finalists. In China the number was 6 million.

Yes, Chinese fairs are not as good as American fairs, the standards are different, and you can't compare apples and oranges. But still, 6 million oranges!"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7693580/site/newsweek/

There may be less American programmers and soon there will be 20,000 more chinese and indian programers pouring into the states....but they're (on the whole) not as good as an American programer from my experience. Those companies will get what they pay for.

Though I still say 40k a year is generous for an 'entry-level' coding job.

[LiberalEsto]

21. kick

so the evening DU crowd can read this

[okieinpain]

23. I'm mixed on this, I know the IT field is tight. but work can still be

found. you just have to be really good on the networking or programming end. at my company we've had a couple of people jump over to other companies, and I've gotten a couple of offers, but I didn't like the money side of the offers.

[makhno]

25. That's the rub

The work is out there, but the salaries are laughable. There is some decent, well-paid work left in niche industries and start-ups, but the number of positions is definitely much lower than the output of even the better CS departments, not to mention the scads of unemployed or underemployed experienced engineers out there.

US-based IT is a dead end. I would not recommend anyone to get a CS degree in today's atmosphere, unless they think about going into research.

[sadiesworld]

26. kick

:mad:

[BigBearJohn]

27. You asked. HERE is your answer: http://www.techsunite.org/ SIGN UP NOW

SIGN UP NOW!!

Techsunite.org is the nationally-oriented web site of WashTech/CWA, the nation's leading union for high-tech workers. We are ensuring that our voices get heard and our needs are met. Today, job security, health care, retirement plans, offshore outsourcing and visas are on our minds more than ever. From Silicon Valley to Boston, high-tech workers are joining our national network-to raise our voice and make a difference. Now it is time for you to join our movement at http://www.washtech.org/join

[LiberalEsto]

29. That's fantastic

I'm passing the info along to my husband and friends

[makhno]

31. Thanks for the link

This is excellent. I'll be sure to spread this around. The disaffection among my friends in the IT world is so high, their irrational opposition to unionization is beginning to waver.

[BigBearJohn]

33. You're welcome. I wish more techies would sign up. Spread the word!

[SoCalDem]

30. Here's a "novel" idea...

How about having the colleges STOP educating foreign students until ALL the smart US kids have been admitted to colleges? This is a dirty little secret.. Tuition and costs have risen so much, and "real" aid cut so much, that a LOT of deserving kids simply cannot afford to go full time, so the colleges are only too happy to "offer" a college education to the sons and daughters of our well-off worldwide friends..

These well-off foreign students are taught and trained here, and of course they want to stay or come back, so our young people are getting screwed TWICE..

and tax-supported schools are accomplices in theis scheme.. Naturally they are after the buck, so the out-of-state(country) fees are a big income factor to the schools, so of course they encourage it..

We are certainly shortchanging everyone when we donot do everything possible to properly educate the next generation:(

[KlatooBNikto]

37. You realize that not only can our corporations hire our own IT workers

but also these foreign workers if they stop supporting Bush's insane war in Iraq and the massive tax cuts he has enacted for his rich friends?

Both our own IT workers and these foreign workers are just pawns for the Bush administration's insane economic and foreign policies.

[paineinthearse]

38. CSPAN Journal is a great way to help spread the word

Marge Jacoby from the Manhattan Institute is on now.

Call

Washington Journal: Democrats [phone]
Washington Journal: Republicans [phone]
Washington Journal: Others [phone]

For the future, watch the daily CSPAN group's post in the GD forum. You can submit questions/comments the night before for an appropriate guest, or phone in live.