religion :a choice or not

[undergroundpanther]

The reality is that homosexual adults, who are attracted to other homosexual adults, and who only wish to have mutually consenting relationships with others, are seen by many people as monsters, as perverts, as abominations.

Gay people know that this is a reality that does not change for some, regardless of evidence to the contrary, regardless of reason, regardless of principles of democracy and rights and freedom, regardless of the principles of the Constitution of the US.

Again, this speaks volumes about what is really going on.

Read more...

http://www.unknownnews.org/050510a-cp.html

[liberal N proud]

1. Most adults belong to the religion they were raised in

But there is nothing to stop one from converting from one to another. I don't think it is as much choice as one believes but it is not pre-programed into your psyche as possibly sexual affiliation.

[Just Me]

20. Not this adult. I don't "belong" to a religion.

I may have been indoctrinated,...but, that does not mean I "belong" to a religion. I don't think so.

Why mix the apples of "religion" with the bananas of being "human"? Religion seeks to impose a structure on nature that is rather unnatural; yet, has the capability of pushing humanity forward. Science seeks to OBSERVE & RECORD nature; yet fails to accept anything beyond the physical senses.

Why not just get through existence without torturing fellow human beings for being harmlessly different? What drives certain people to torture other people for just being a bit unique? It's awful and harmful and destructive and counter-productive and painful and recycles the worst, over and over and over again.

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Right

At my church one of my friends when she was younger was Baptist but when she was a pre-teen she and her parents and older brother changed to what I am (Church of Christ). Another family friend used to be Catholic but when she started dating her now husband she converted.

[Swamp Rat]

2. Neither

Religion appears to be a plague.

[noamnety]

3. I never understood that conversion at marriage deal

I can understand people who come to believe something else and convert. But the folks who "choose" to become catholic so they can marry in the catholic church ... danged if I understand how they chose to suddenly believe a whole different set of stuff than they did the day before.

[cheezus]

4. they believe the same thing both before and after

"I just want her/his mother to get off my back"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. Usually such people weren't too attached to their birth family's

religion in the first place.

I had a relative (now deceased) who converted to Judaism when she got married. When other relatives asked how she could give "her Christian faith," she said, "It never meant anything to me anyway, and I like the people at Al's temple."

That's probably a typical attitude among people who convert upon marriage.

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Religion is the ULTIMATE chosen behavior

You can't help who and/or what turns you on, but you do have some control over how and what you worship.

[JVS]

6. Are the religious choosing or chosen?

That's my question

[undergroundpanther]

7. People

Have a right to change thier religion chosen or not AND all people have the right to sleep with any consenting adult they want to and to change the way they view and live thier sexual orientations at any time..

[carl_pwccaman]

8. Do we have freedom of religion bec. ppl. born that way?

Hey everyone. (That was my article by the way, thanks Panther for putting it up)

I just find it disturbing that whether one chooses sexual orientation or not is the basis for so many arguments on either side, about gay rights.

If homosexuals DO choose to be gay, they still have civil rights, don't they? That's mainly my point.

Certainly homosexuals do choose whether or not to consent to sex with this person or that person, so they do choose their behavior in that sense, but they also have the right to choose to NOT be a fundamentalist, don't they? Of course. They can even choose a church like the Metropolitan Community Church, or Unitarian Universalist, both of which affirm homosexual marriage and gay rights, and have gay ministers, etc.

People do decide to explore a religion or to leave a religion, and they fight for the right to make those choices.

There are people who say 'Jesus made me do it' or satan or whoever, and that shouldn't be an excuse for rape or murder or whatever, I mean a sociopath can claim to be oriented at birth towards sociopathism, but that doesn't cut it.

People seem to experience choices and decisions, and also attractions/repulsions a sense of being drawn to something, that they do not experience as their own choice, but as something that happens to them.

[Zhade]

9. Religious practice is chosen; ability to "buy-in" is not.

I'm an ex-fundie, and no matter how hard I tried and wanted, I could NEVER believe the myths.

[radwriter0555]

11. Religious adherence could be mental illness.

Seriously, to be able to suspend all logic to insist on gods and angels and miracles must really border on the mentally ill.

No offense to anyone in particular.

[PKG]

13. Unlikely.

Religious/superstitious people are far and away the norm throught human history. True atheists are a relatively modern convention, though not unprecedented.

Of course, if you count 'suspending all logic' as a mental illness...hell, by that definition, love is a mental illness, as are conscience, compassion, empathy, and trust. So while you can call religion mental illness if you'd like, by necessity you have to call all positive human emotions mental illness as well, which really strips the term 'mental illness' of any valid meaning.

[Zhade]

15. "True atheists are a relatively modern convention..."

I'm uncertain what you mean by the term "true atheists". I'm a true atheist, in that I lack a belief in any gods, and I'm certain that people such as myself have existed since the beginning of civilization.

If, on the other hand, your idea of "true atheism" means "those who actively deny gods exist" or "those who assert there are no gods", then I believe you are thinking more along the lines of what I'd term "political atheism", which can be as dogmatic as any evangelism or fundamentalism.

I am uncertain how long "political atheism" has existed, though I suspect for a long, long time, too.

With regards to the "mental illness" aspect, there is a certain validity to the question of whether singular religious experiences manifest themselves solely through the brain, convincing the subject of the experience that their flavor of religious belief is Real and True. This is a discussion that obviously suffers from the problem of offending believers who may see those posing this question as calling them "crazy".

Since I can't get inside their head, i don't know. I do know it is possible, however - my grandmother is a schizophrenic with religious delusions caused by her malfunctioning mind. I am sure that she feels these experiences affirm her beliefs; I'm also sure that the orderlies in the home she stays are aware that her convictions are, in fact, at least partially based on insanity.

It's a wide-open question. To me, however, even if all religion is delusion, all that matters is that the believer not force their way of life onto another. In the end, we all believe things, and as long as that does not get in the way of modern life and advancement, I'm all for people holding sacred what they feel sacred.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Ahem.

We are ALL born "True Atheists". It is what humans are taught after birth that requires them to "suspend all logic".

And religion is NOT an emotion, let alone a "positive" one and cannot possibly be compared as such.

"by that definition, love is a mental illness, as are conscience, compassion, empathy, and trust"

What are you talking about? None of those require suspension of all logic.

If you dislike the poster comparing religion to a mental illness, by all means, argue that point, but don't make up stuff about atheism.

[TimeChaser]

21. Personally

...I dislike it when atheists insist that religious and/or spiritual people must be crazy just as much as when fundamentalists claim that everyone but them is immoral and sinful.

I think religion is a combination of choice and how one was raised.

[noiretextatique]

12. a choice that is mostly not considered a choice

especially by authoritarian religions.

[PKG]

14. A choice.

Whereas homosexuality is not.

[Crowdance]

17. The "God Gene" implies that spirituality is not a choice

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/14/ngod14.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/14/ixnewstop.html

"Religious belief is determined by a person's genetic make-up according to a study by a leading scientist. After comparing more than 2,000 DNA samples, an American molecular geneticist has concluded that a person's capacity to believe in God is linked to brain chemicals.

(snip)
"Studies on twins showed that those with this gene, a vesicular monoamine transporter that regulates the flow of mood-altering chemicals in the brain, were more likely to develop a spiritual belief.

"Growing up in a religious environment was said to have little effect on belief. Dr Hamer, who in 1993 claimed to have identified a DNA sequence linked to male homosexuality, said the existence of the "god gene" explained why some people had more aptitude for spirituality than others."

But just 'cause your brain tells you to believe in Spirit, doesn't mean you have to select a hating, bigoted religion in which to do it. That's where reason, compassion and intellect come into play. I have to believe that folks who belong to religions just because their families did, or because their neighbors do, are living unexamined lives, and missing out on all the really good stuff.

[beam me up scottie]

18. I believe I've read this report before.

Got a link that doesn't require an account by any chance?
Bug Me Not doesn't have one.

[Crowdance]

19. How about Time mag?

It's a much longer piece: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101041025-725072,00.html

[beam me up scottie]

22. Thanks!

:toast:



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