Straight Talk on Dungeons and Dragons

[Jara sang]

http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp

Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the commandment of I Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Much of the trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to say the least of it

Quoting Dr. Thomas Radecki MD, a psychiatrist at the University of Illinois School of Medicine: "The evidence in these cases is really quite impressive. There is no doubt in my mind that the game Dungeons and Dragons is causing young men to kill themselves and others. The game is one of non-stop combat and violence. It is clear to me that this game is desensitizing players to violence and also causing an increased tendency to violent behavior."

:evilfrown:

[thinkingwoman]

1. um

what?

[Jara sang]

3. Um, yeah

My thoughts exactly.

[a_random_joel]

2. I used to play D&D when I was a kid.

The only evil that possessed me, which I am now exorcised of (Praise The Lord!) was Nerdodamus - Dark Prince of Those Who Cannot Get Laid.

[Jara sang]

7. There weren't any Geekgurls in your clan? n/t

[CornField]

13. LOL -- you must be a male

As a female, my nerdiness never implicated on my sexuality. It's really a crappy double-standard, isn't it?

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

4. Jack Chick is a fucking lunatic.

As is anyone who takes him seriously.

[brooklynite]

5. What these kids need...

"There is no doubt in my mind that the game Dungeons and Dragons is causing young men to kill themselves and others. The game is one of non-stop combat and violence"

What these misguided kids clearly need is is an environment that builds character. Maybe they should join the army...

[4_Legs_Good]

15. LMAO

very well said!

david

[radar]

23. "...And do all that for their country!"

Substitute D&D/game with a year in Iraq or Afghanistan and the results are similar.

"...Dungeons and Dragons is causing young men to kill themselves and others. The game is one of non-stop combat and violence. It is clear to me that this game is desensitizing players to violence and also causing an increased tendency to violent behavior."

Shoot on sight Sunday, May 15, 2005
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/05/shoot-on-sight.html

[TheMightyFavog]

54. Actually...

You'd be surprised how big roleplaying games are in the military. I've heard stories from the ROTC guys in our gaming group on campus about officers who use Modern D20 sessions to teach small unit tactics.

[FogerRox]

74. RPG in the military?

Try "Warhammer 40k"

Or "Battleground" the WW2 war game. Or "VOR, the maelstrom"

Or any number of minatures war games---US civil WAr--American Rev--
Napoleonics games---

try gamesworkshop.com or thewarp.net

[CornField]

6. I guess if I ever actually encountered an org or a troll,

D&D would have helped me to be better prepared. Not once, however, can I name a time when playing D&D (or any other RPGs) had led me to violent feelings toward other humans or current species on our planet.

Imagination really *really* bothers fundies, doesn't it?

[XemaSab]

30. I encounter trolls all the time

on DU, but sadly, a past free of D&D left me unprepared for how to deal with them, so all I can do is summon the mods.

:-(

[TheMightyFavog]

56. See, this is where being a mod was fun.

I got to use my D&D skills to wield the DU Bat of Bannination +5. The freepers never saw it coming. One swing and :nuke: no more freeper! :evilgrin:

*sigh* Almost makes me want to get back to modding this summer...

[One_Life_To_Give]

59. Bright side of trolls

If you read Asprin, you would see the bright side of Trolls. Trolls are Male. The female is a Trolup. And both can be pretty cool to have around.

[DoYouEverWonder]

42. We turned a guy into a hedgehog once

that's about the nastiest thing I've ever done to anybody playing D&D.

[Rob H.]

48. Not to quibble, but it's "orc"

I'm a bigger nerd than you! Neener, neener, neen--hey, hang on a second...

:silly:

(And yes, I used to play many, many years ago.)

[Walt Starr]

53. I'm the biggest nerd on this thread

I still play from time to time.

:evilgrin:

[ieoeja]

64. As do I. Yesterday, in fact.

One of the PCs walked into a horrible trap. He returned to the same tavern where he'd bedded down a barmaid, the owner's daughter, when we'd been through the area six months earlier (game time). Bottom line: there was a marriage with the rest of the party members gleefully helping the DM spring his trap.

[LondonReign2]

73. Geez, you guys don't even get a capital "G" in geekness

I mean, have any of *you* actually been published in Dungeon magazine?

See, when I talk geek, I talk GEEK! :)

[FogerRox]

75. I managed q hobby shop--sold D20 D&D Wargames etc

[CornField]

68. I humbly bow in honor of your exquisite nerdiness.

From this day forward, I shall refer to you as "Royal Orc Boss" (ROB for short) :D

[Rob H.]

70. Ha! That's great!

:rofl:

[jwcomer]

8. That's funny stuff.

As an aetheist this sort of thing always make me giggle. It boggles my mind how fundies can take seriously an author who proclaims to have previously been a "witch high priest" and a "hard core satanist" to boot. I've met a few "witches" and they were all mostly harmless, but I've never met a self proclaimed satanist who didn't have mental health issues.

We need to do a better job in this country with our mentally ill.

[4_Legs_Good]

9. Does *anyone* still play D&D

Anyone, I guess, other than those of us who played 20 years ago? I thought the Magic card games pretty much destroyed the D&D player base by giving young people something easier to play.

A damned shame if you ask me. I can't wait until my kids are old enough for me to force them to play D&D with me.

david

[bryant69]

19. I roleplay - although D&D isn't usually the game of choice.

Instead we've been playing Feng Shui (Hong Kong Action Roleplaying), Star Wars, Traveller, Angel (based on the tvshow) and a few others.

And yet I still make it to church each week as well.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[TheMightyFavog]

57. I play Buffy (Based on the TV Show), Shadowrun, and next fall, Red Dwarf

I think of myself as a well-adjusted guy.

[thinkingwoman]

20. it's a wonderful thing

when the kids get old enough to play!

Hubby and I have two teens and we fight over who gets to play characters and who has to DM...good clean family fun! LOL

When we went to Gencon last year I was pleasantly surprised at the number of young players...sure, many of them were congregating at the video game booths, but some were still interested in good old fashioned D&D. My kids say they meet a fair number of kid players online, but we live in the middle of red state midwest hell so I don't see many young players face to face.

[4_Legs_Good]

24. That's cool!

it just seems like such a lost art. Everything's been made so much "easier" and watered down. I'm glad to hear that there are still some players out there.

Personally, I prefer being the GM! :)

david

[LondonReign2]

44. Crap! Now I have to go kill myself!

I hadn't realized until Mr. Chick informed me, but I guess I'll have to kill myself now.

Jack Chick is laughed at deleriously by the D&D community. Imagine, a whole community of folks who revel in their geekdom mocking the clueless Mr. Chick.

There are plenty of players out there; the pen & paper market made a comeback with the new ruleset, though there are probably fewer players than in the heyday thanks to CRPGs, World of Warcraft, Everquest, etc.

With ever increasing demands from family and job, not to mention moves due to job changes, my gaming is strictly though online e-mail or play-by-post games. Much slower, but still a lot of fun.

Except for the killing yourself part, of course. :P

[MountainLaurel]

34. Yes

I have a few colleagues from an online librarian list who play regularly.

[starroute]

37. My kids play D&D

They got out of Magic because it all came down to money -- those who could afford to buy the most powerful cards always beat those who couldn't.

Then for a while, D&D got looking kind of stodgy, so they were more interested in other systems, like White Wolf (Vampire, Werewolf, etc.)

But lately, D&D has gotten spruced up. They're on third edition, I think -- or mayby it's third and a halfth. And they've open sourced it, which enables other people to publish games using their system.

Right now, my younger son is running a D20 Modern game -- which seems to mean an occulty sort of adventure set on a present-day earth which has been infiltrated by D&D type beings from other dimensions. In his game, there are Knights Templars *and* hot drow biker chicks. And dragons. And illithids. And Aleister Crowley.

I'm sure Jack Chick would hate it.

[4_Legs_Good]

38. LOL, that's fantastic!

Yeah, it definitely seemed like those card games would come down to money. I'm glad to hear that D&D is making a comeback!!

:)

david

[Rob H.]

52. I played "Werewolf" about 10 years ago

Now the same friend of mine who introduced me to Werewolf is trying to get me into All Flesh Must Be Eaten (zombie-hunting survival horror. Hoo-ha!).

[TheMightyFavog]

61. Ahhh... D20 modern....

Brings back memories of this year's PointCon. What was supposed to be a covert U.S. Specail Forces operation to cleanly kill a Columbian drug lord and get the fuck out turned into the complete decimation and burnination of said drug lord's villa, the utter slaughter of all of his guards, the use a 9 year old boy as a disposable human shield (emphasis on the word disposable, we gave him the nickname "Meatshield" for a reason)), a fistfight breaking out bewtween squadmates over who got a dead guard's RPG, the snoper/observer team getting run over by an out-of-control technical which they had just shot the tires out of and the drug lord dying from the simultaneous detonation of one fragmentatiuon grenade from each member of both rifle squads. (Jerry Bruckheimer would be proud) Afterward there was the subsequent looting of said drug lord's personal safe, his coke factory, Cuban cigar humidor, ("Has everyoine kiestered their personal supply?")and his distillery occured.

[Drewskie]

47. ...

Video games and magic the gathering hurt it some. I think especially video games. Online games like Everquest essentially are d&d in a computerized format. Curt Schilling plays Everquest, so screw the nay sayers.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

10. anyone remember a movie about some guy who got too involved?

in DD or some game like that, he was in college playing with his buddies (one girl was involved i think)..........

anyway i think he attempted to jump off a building or something and his friends had to stop him?

any ideas as to what movie this maybe?

thanks!

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

16. Mazes and Monsters

Starring a young Tom Hanks.

I turned it off in disgust after the first half hour or so, so I couldn't verify how it ended.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

25. thanks for the replies everyone!

mazes and monsters, lol, what a lame name.......

[AllegroRondo]

35. How it ended:

Tom Hank's character was in a phycho ward, unable to tell reality from imagination.

[4_Legs_Good]

17. Mazes and Monsters

and it starred Tom Hanks even.

Really horrible made for TV movie written by someone who had no idea what he was talking about.

david

[JHB]

32. Based on a novel by Rona Jaffe

Here's one Amazon review:

D&D made scary for the "soccer mom" set, August 19, 2004
Reviewer: Reginleif II "reginleif2" (Everett, MA United States) - See all my reviews

I read this book, plus Jaffe's "Reunion" books, years ago, as a high school student devouring any book I could get my hands on. Taste and discrimination (a word that used to have positive connotations) would come later.

Jaffe specializes in the sort of mass-market novels that, unfortunately, are thought of as "women's fiction," just as "Cosmopolitan" and similar magazines are thought of as "women's magazines." These categories work if you believe that all American women like to read long, drawn-out novels that are all about relationships and feelings.

Myself, I'd rather read S/F and fantasy, plus non-fiction (and I don't mean "self-help" books). But since my sub-demographic is smaller, and I don't buy all that hairspray and makeup, I don't think my opinion counts for much with the marketers.

Anyway, as the other negative reviews have said, this book was a cheap attempt to cash in on the hysteria surrounding "Dungeons & Dragons." The target audience is the "Cosmo gal," or the subscriber to "Good Housekeeping" ... a stereotypically feminine woman who doesn't get into all that icky geek stuff and finds it somewhat threatening, so is relieved to have her suspicions confirmed that there's something inherently unhealthy about it. Many such women are "soccer moms" and other mothers who seem to want the world purged of all dangers for The Sake of Da Chyldrun!. Once upon a time, there was a word for this: "overprotective." Notice how you never hear it used much anymore?

The parallels between D&D 20 years ago and the Internet today are hard to miss. Then, as now, it was mostly those who were ignorant of the new phenonmenon who screamed the loudest about its "dangers." And, just like video games and billiards before it, D&D now seems almost quaint. Lots of D&D players are upwards of 40 and hold down very steady and respectable jobs; many have kids themselves.

Even more ironic, all those soccer moms who are so terrified of "the Internet" leaping into their living rooms and molesting their chyyyyllldruuun are now online! Except they mainly keep to their own little forums in which they can exchange their inane sentiments, complete with endless rows of exclamation points, sappy MIDIs, and saccharine animated GIFs.

Stay there, please, and leave the rest of us alone.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385286392/qid=1116270738/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/002-0287034-5552025?v=glance&s=books

[Zodiak]

18. I remember that.

Mazes and Monsters. An 80's attempt at discrediting the game. Remember the PMRC and their fundamaniac friends?

[MattBaggins]

21. Monsters and Mazes

One of the reasons I hate Tom Hanks.

[truth2power]

62. Don't remember the movie, but anyone know title of the book

There was a book I read, a long time ago, about a student at a university, and I think some of his friends were involved also.

He got so involved in D&D, and they used to run around in the tunnels under the campus. He eventually disappeared, I think.

There were photos of the tunnels and the people involved. I wish I could remember the title.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

63. turns out the movie was based on the book you are refering to

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385286392/qid=1116270738/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/102-0243541-7377710?v=glance&s=books

Mazes and Monsters by Rona Jaffe

thanks to JHB for pointing this out prevoiusly in the thread.

[truth2power]

67. I saw that previous post,

but I didn't think that was the title of the book. If anyone can remember, did Mazes and Monsters have a section of photos? If not, then it was some other book.

edit> you were right. I found this on google:

http://www.geocities.com/utherworld/seasons/egbert.html

"On August 14, 1979, J. Dallas left a map of pins that indicated a location in the university's steam tunnels and left his room at Case Hall. He took a blanket, some food, and many sleeping pills and entered the Steam Tunnels, evidently intending to die of a drug overdose.

He awoke the next evening, disoriented but very much alive.

As personal belongings were later found in the university's steam tunnels and because most people were unfamiliar with role-playing games then, the police and the media seized on a bizarre explanation for his disappearance: Egbert had disappeared or died during a role-playing game! Many news agencies picked it up as the man bites dog story of the day. To complicate matters, the local Society for Creative Anachronism had recently taken group photographs in the tunnels, and had painted medieval designs on the walls.

When J. Dallas turned up a month later with a very different explanation for his disappearance, few bothered to report the facts."

That's the one I was thinking of. I didn't remember him ever being found.

[Zodiak]

11. Hahahahahah....DnD looks evil, therefore it is evil!

But not war...that's patriotic.

Why do these fundies have so much free-time?

And I would like to see them demonstrate and give evidence for the "causitive" effect of playing a stupid role-playig game to suicide. All I see here is an assertion.

[Walt Starr]

12. Fundie Crap

Nothing more needs to be said about it.

Dark Dungeons indeed!

[MattBaggins]

14. What a load of...

DnD never made me kill anyone nor did Everquest. World of Warcraft is probably going to make my wife kill me however. ;)

[JHB]

22. I gather you just forgot to add a disclaimer...

...to the effect of "Not MY views, but those of a wingnut."

[Jara sang]

33. Hey I just report the shit, I don't wade through it.

You will notice that i didn't give my opinion. But I think it is fundie crap, this was forwarded to me by a friend who does play D&D.

[everythingsxen]

26. *begins slamming head into wall*

I'm not stopping 'til I am dead or they are all raptured up.


For the record though, of the several dozen (or maybe even hundred) none of them has ever killed themselves.

[nickinSTL]

27. This stuff is absurd

My fiancee did a report in school comparing the number of deaths attributable to D&D versus the number of deaths attributable to Christianity in a year in the US.

Guess which one had more? By a HUGE margin?

[booley]

28. Oh I loved Dark dungeons

...The Chick screed against D&D. It was so mind numblingly stupid that you had to laugh.

I LOLed when I read about the Girl committing suicide becuase her charector "Elfstar" died. (and really , anyone who would name a charector Elfstar has issues to begin with) It was so over the top. And the idea that once you reach 12 level you learn 'real spells"! funny, all I got was a better armour class.

My friend' mother from grade school once told me that the D&D books had real spells. So I aksed her to show me one. She pointed out aparagraph ina book and said 'THERE". I looked at it and said "NO THERE!" it wasn't a spell, it was an algebraic equation using a random number generator (dice) to use as the variable, put in the form of a word problem.

she didn't appreciate that.

The original version i read also said that if you burn your D&D manuals, you should also get rid of any books by writers like C.S Lewis and Tolkian. (both Christians themselves, lewis wrote a lot of Christian books) Actually had an arguement with one guy claimign that Lewis and Tolkian weren't really Christian.

I view Chick the way i view Phelps..they are so over the top that they are a better arguement against religous idiocy, ignorance and homophobia that any thing we could say.

BTW-Was aprt of a study once on LARPers (live action role playing) playing Vampire and guess what.? Gamers tend to be MORE psychologicly stable then non-gamers. "Dr." Radecki should really read the literature before he tells us what the evidence is.

[LeftyMom]

29. If he wants to expose the real evils of role playing

he'd let the world know about twinks, LARPers, game designers who don't play-test and the widening of the posterior that comes from a sedentary hobby.

[Starfury]

36. Don't forget Rules Lawyers! :-) n/t

[InternalDialogue]

31. This just in!

Long-time Tetris players have been reported breaking into UPS delivery vans, rearranging boxes to create continuous blocks of packages, and then stealing those entire rows!

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. Those people can BITE ME. Get a grip already

[0rganism]

40. The True Evil of Dungeons & Dragons is the crappy ruleset

...especially the combat model, but also including the character development and experience systems. While the limitations and unbalances are not as apparent in pencil&paper play, due to overall systemic sluggishness of dice-rolling and scribble-scratching on character sheets, they are easier to spot in the various computerized variants where the pace is faster and record keeping is automatic.

I much prefer GURPS. Even Rolemaster was superior, when I tried it.

Caveat: I have heard it alleged that there are revised rules which make AD&D somewhat less crappy, but I stopped playing it altogether years ago, when I tired of its 1st-edition mediocrity.

[Walt Starr]

55. The d20 Open Source Rules have changed RPG's forever

I highly recommend it as the engine is far superior to anything that came before.

[4_Legs_Good]

65. BS! Next you're gonna move in against the D&D BASIC rules!!!

and that would be criminal!!!

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

:)

Anyway, I actually started out playing basic rules when "elf" and "dwarf" were classes! Eventually moved into AD&D, and then to 2nd edition, which I actually didn't care for much.

I think for most group gamers - or whatever you call people who play together all the time, the rules in the books don't really matter much, and each group develops their own rules. I know as a DM I had the right to utterly destroy and annihilate any character of any player whom I didn't like.

I actually liked the MERP combat system, though I found the computations cumbersome.

Anyway, D&D was always more about ordering pizza and listening to music and keeping my sister up all night in the next room than it was about actually getting experience.

Ahhhhh, the good ol' days!

david

[DeaconBlues]

41. D&D paranoia is so like "1983"

As for this idiot's list of people who killed or killed themselves who were interested in fantasy games, I would like to see the list of people who committed gruesome acts of violence in the name of the "Lord." I doubt this Chick character would have enough bandwidth to do that.

[JackRiddler]

43. Scrabble is going to make me kill my girlfriend

I can be up by 70 points, she's still going to come up with the points to win it, every damn time.

[Terran]

45. As an old time D&D'er...

...I think possibly the problem here is that D&D tends to teach tolerance for other religions. I mean, unless your character is some sort of anal retentive lawful good or lawful evil do-gooder (or do-badder, as the case may be), then most of the time people playing D&D eventually learn to benefit themselves and their group by adopting a tolerant attitude toward the religions they encounter while playing. And religion is always a big part of the game; it pretty much has to be because of the imortant contribution of priests/clerics et al to the group dynamic (i.e., they're keeping the group healthy with their healing spells).

[MadHound]

46. Oh geez, more of the same ol' same ol'

Started playing thirty one years ago(yes, I still have my original three, Men&Magic, Monsters&Treasure, and Underground and Wilderness Adventures:P) and almost immediately some fundies in town got wind of the game and were yammering away in the newspaper.

Thirty one years later we're still dealing with this sort of stupidity. Now they're claiming that we have actual real live spells in the books:eyes:. Trust me you dumbfucks, if there were real spells in the books, y'all would have been gone long ago.

I still play on occaisson, but life has gotten much busier, so I can't play as much as I would like. However I plan to be an old fart in a nursing home playing D&D, scaring all the fundie nurses with fake spells:evilgrin:

[LondonReign2]

50. Perhaps we need to start an online DU D&D game?

As long as I don't have to DM for a change! :)

[MadHound]

51. That would be OK,

But I wouldn't have the time, really. Between work and work at my little farm, I barely have time to do any face to face socializing and gaming, much less online. Maybe this winter, when nature and things slow down. And I hear you about not DMing.

[me b zola]

69. My hubbie was reading this thread over my shoulder

And he instructed me to find him some new playmates! I only occassionally play D&D with him, and shadow run only once.

Can I put you down for a potential player to meet in the gaming group?

[LondonReign2]

72. If that was aimed at me, sure!

I'd be happy to join a DU group. Again, so long as I get to be a player for a change! LOL. I'm already running two online games, so I think its time I got to switch sides.

Feel free to PM me.

[sweetheart]

58. I tossed the box years back

I had the whole original set, was it not distributed by a shop in the
chicago area...? I had the first 50 issues of "Dungeon"? i think, a
magazine that my mates and i used as extensions of "the books".

Funny, by contrast to the article, I got in to software engineering from
D&D, programming the tables in basic and algorigthms for generating
maps automatically... which got my friends and I very intrested in
random number generators and all sorts of fun stuff.

As well, i had a LOT of those little lead figures, hobbits, trolls,
ents and whatnot, and the role play always had the lead figurines on
a table.... and all those dice.

We had a variation where we had large armies, and played full battlefield
command scenarios... gosh, even tank warfare, and all those strategic
games with squares of cardboard, to replay the battle of gettysburg
and all.

Nowadays, i'm happy to ditch the dice and play pure video games... all
those tables and lookups are now real-time meelee rounds.

Funny how the neo-turds hate D&D... i guess its their thing to hate
all forms of play that are not bible study.

[tjwash]

49. Jeeeeesus, that article is 15 years old.

And it was all just originally smoke and mirrors to try to get someone off of a murder charge. The original complainant of the "devil worshipping / axe murdering d and d player" was some woman that turned out to be clinically insane.

Oh, and Raedecki is a fruitcake himself. The guy has completely been laughed out of every court he was ever called into by the defense as an "expert witness".

Here, take a look at all the cases for yourself.

[DanCa]

60. I still play eberron

I even collect the minatures. However right now am more gearred to the hero system. Oh I dont take stock of what chick said never did. However I will say this anything used in excess even food and water can be considered bad. It's not dnds fault its the player.
On a side note can the dnd players pm me if you have a computer game or email game that i can get on it. I cant seem to find any decent ones on yahoo. Thanks in advance.

[johnaries]

66. causing youg men to kill themselves and others....I can imagine how

that would go:
"I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!!!! I roll first..."

[FinallyStartingToWin]

71. Wow Is This Old. One Part 16 Years, The Other Almost 5 Years LOL

OMG, Did you hear? Monica Lewinski has a blue dress with a stain on it! LOL
:sarcasm:

:hi:

[LondonReign2]

76. Kick

n/t

[Deja Q]

77. And a gay response on Dungeons and Dragons

It's a GAME. FANTASY. ESCAPISM.

It's reality that's causing people to lose hope, run out of things to live for, and kill themselves.

This "Doctor" can go malpractice himself.

Oh, and violence de-sensitization? Shows like the X-Files with their excessive gore are more likely to do so; and having grown up on that sort of thing, I am LIVING PROOF that it's a load of bunk to suggest games and such desensitize. Provided that the context is not made to resemble reality. (which is why GTA III got to me and Doom3 did not.)