Does Wesley Clark really want gays in the military?

[sfecap]

CNN's Crossfire, 8/1/03:


NOVAK: General, we've got to move for a break quickly, but I want you ask you a quick question. You don't like, don't ask/don't tell. Would you open the door for gays to enter the military if you were president of the United States?

CLARK: No. I'd tell the military to relook at the policy and come back and we'd talk about it.

(CROSSTALK)

CLARK: I think the military has an obligation -- I think that, ultimately, approving those policies falls to the people who are in uniform and in the chain of the command. The top level of the chain of the command is the commander in chief.

But I think it's in the armed forces themselves, in the leaders, that you've got to find the wisdom to set the right balance in having a force that is representative, having a force that is volunteer and fulfilling our duties as Americans to be representative of all the people.



So...which is it Wes? (Maybe someone can translate the Wesspeak for us all....)

You just gonna talk about it? Or are you going to take a definate stand?

Talk about a tapdance!

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/01/cf.00.html

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Talk About an Axe-Grind!

In the two intervening years since this interview, he has indicated that he supports not just a revisitation, but a "don't misbehave" policy, instead of the current "don't ask don't tell."

He has also strongly spoken in favor of trying to get back all of the interpreters who were let go, many of whom happened to be gay.

He has also spoken in favor of civil unions.

Do you ever give your negativity and Clark-bashing a rest? I'm just sayin'.

DTH

[sfecap]

7. You might want to check the date on the interview...

it aired on August 1, 2003....last time I checked, it is still 2003.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. My Mistake

But see post #3 below, for a slam dunk of your ridiculous and divisive efforts here.

DTH

[sfecap]

16. Hey....I just posted a transcript of

what the man said! You have a problem with it, take it up with Wesley.

I didn't make it up. Seems like a softball question to me. It could have been answered with a very simple one word answer....

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. Don't Be Disingenuous

It is obvious to everyone what you're doing, it is obvious to everyone you have an axe to grind against Clark, and the intent behind your post here is crystal clear.

DTH

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. No

Examine his statements all you want. That doesn't change the fact that you have a

CLEAR

AND

OBVIOUS

agenda here. You are not some unbiased seeker for the truth. You are a major anti-Clarker, and you are presenting information in a manner that is, in my opinion, disruptive and disingenuous.

And as long as you keep that shit up, I'll challenge you all the fuck I want, thanks very much.

DTH

[sfecap]

28. Hey, knock yourself out...

I actually think it's amusing watching you try to extricate him from his own statements.

Help! Mary!

Indeed...

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Typical That You're *Amused*

Even while you're going negative on a good and decent man.

I'm sorry your candidate -- whoever he or she is -- is so vulnerable and weak in your own mind that you're forced to resort to this divisive crap.

DTH, Who Loves All of Our Candidates, and Hasn't Resorted to Divisive Negative Attacks on Any of Them

[sfecap]

33. I don't think it's negative...

...to examine the statements of a candidate. It's done all of the time. Clark has said some very good things, and they get posted here all of the time.

The man is running for President. He will be examined.

In this case, it appears that there is a disconnect between what he may think, and what he says. (Unless it's some code that only you understand....)

In this interview, Wes Clark had a perfect opportunity to set the record stright, and offer a direct answer. He didn't. That concerns me, and it certainly colors my opinion when considering him for my vote.

See, being an informed voter is more than just being impressed with degrees, and medals, and service records, and fantasies about how Karl Rove is scared. I actually (gasp!) want to know how a candidate thinks, and what he says. Imagine that!

[bitchkitty]

38. Do you know him personally? n/t

[Pepperbelly]

40. I do ...

what do you want to know?

:D

[blm]

31. "Gary, what do I do?"

.

[dfong63]

37. stop with the personal attacks

[blm]

2. Clark was one of the few who backed Kerry when he was advocating for gays

to serve openly WAY back when it was VERY unpopular to do so.

[StephNW4Clark]

3. "General Wesley Clark Would 'Welcome' Gays To Military"

http://www.gaypasg.org/Press%20Clippings/June%202003/General%20Wesley%20Clark%20Would%20'Welcome'%20Gays%20To%20Military.htm

"C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN), welcomed Clark’s comments. "Clearly, Gen. Clark has seen that lesbian, gay and bisexual troops are serving our allies well," Osburn said."

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. Thanks!

Even better. I'm sure this divisive, gay-baiting canard will be trotted out again by the people desperate to derail Clark, however, so you might want to keep that link handy.

DTH

[synthia]

47. with my own ears i heard him reply tothe same question with

that's a military matter. it's up to the military to decide.

i saw and heard that myself. it was the first interview i saw him do.

[sfecap]

14. So why would he make that statement on CNN?

It is a waffle? (To coin a phrase...)

I mean, why wouldn't he just answer the question with a simple "yes"?

[StephNW4Clark]

18. Didn't realize simplicity=honesty.

There are a whole lot of issues wrapped up with gays in the military, not the least of which is persuading a recalcitrant Pentagon to review the policy. And quite frankly, the issue deserves more than "yes" - though he has said ON THE RECORD on numerous occasions that gays should serve in the military.

Why don't you email General Clark and suggest that he just give "yes" and "no" answers from now on, and not worry about the nuances?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. Far Too Complicated for Them, Steph

Nuance is lost on the purists.

I've said it before: my fear is that Clark is TOO honest and TOO intelligent for the Presidency.

My other fear is that the multitudes of rich people will see the danger that Clark presents, and that one of them will try to take matters into his or her own hands.

DTH

[sfecap]

24. There's nothing wrong with honesty...

It's just geting hard to tell which "honest" statement is the one...

[sfecap]

23. Good idea.

But I thought he was a "straight talker"...

[StephNW4Clark]

26. Are you asking the question to find out...

...or to nit-pick? His stance is quite clear for anyone willing to look into it. If it doesn't meet your "high" standards, fine. But you know what? I'm guessing that the following organizations have more credibility than your requirements that everything has to be exactly the way YOU want to hear it.

- Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military | UCSB

- Gay and Lesbian Political Action and Support Groups (GayPASG)

[sfecap]

30. Here's the thing...

I don't need an "organization" to translate Clarkspeak for me.

I would just like it if the man himself answered the question...I guess that may be too tall an order, huh?

From my perspective (and I may be wrong...) he tiptoes around the issue, speaking in generalities and platitudes.

But, hey...I'm just a voter.

[Skittles]

4. F*** THE TAP DANCE

WHAT F***ING *NOVAK* IS DOING IS DESPICABLE. America is going down the f***ing TUBES and it's got NOTHING to do with gays, IN OR OUT OF THE MILITARY. Who GIVES A SHIT, ROBERT?????? ASK ABOUT OUR G.D. SOLDIERS DYING FOR NOTHING IN IRAQ.

[newsguyatl]

6. i've

also heard clark avocate instead to a "don't ask, don't misbehave" policy. what the fuck is that?

i guess he's saying you can be gay, but don't act on it, or you'll be "misbehaving" and thus will be dismissed.



who knows...








CLearly a wAR hawK

[blm]

10. Clark was advocating for gays long before Dean.

Exactly WHAT position did Dean have when Kerry and Clark were pushing for gays to serve openly? As a governor from the "Democratic wing of the party" surely he must have thrown his weight behind Kerry's advocacy for gays in the military.

Clark did.

[clar]

32. Please.

Vermont is the most Gay friendly state in the country, and virtualy all the laws protecting gays and extending rights, in Vermont, happened in the nineties under Dean. Adoption? 2nd state in the union to allow it, 1992. Anti-discrimination laws? Again in the early nineties. Check out any of the GLBT Advocacy sites.

[blm]

41. The question is about gays in the military.

If Dean was for it, did he throw his weight as governor behind those who were advocating for it?

[dsc]

45. His weight?

He was a governor. He didn't have a vote in the Senate nor the House. I don't think the press much cared about what the governor of Vermont thought about gays in the military. BTW in 92, when Clinton was running, Dean was merely signing a civil rights bill for gays and lesbians that he was instrumental in passing.

[blm]

49. Then he should have been as passionate as Kerry about it.

One would expect.

[clar]

54. This is silly

Dean and Kerry are clearly advocates for GLBT rights. That Dean has achieved more is due to his role as a governor. Clark has expressed his support for gay rights. All three are good advocates. Why bother with this line of argument? They're all pro gay rights. It is so a non issue.

[dsc]

36. I really wish you stop this shit

This type of shit is why I frankly can't stand Dean bashers. You can not find any post, any where, in this entire board where I denigrate Kerry's record on gays and lesbians. Not one. But you, like so many Dean bashers, simply refuse to honestly give credit where credit is due. There is not a single governor anywhere during anytime in US history with a record like Dean's when it comes to gays. And frankly I am beyond tired of straights who have no fucking clue what it is like to fight for such things as basic rights telling stories about one of the damn few governors who has signed gay civil rights legislation (there were 11), one of the damn few who permitted joint gay adoption (there were 2 the other states did this by judical decision), the only one who signed a civil unions bill, and one of the damn few who appointed a gay legislator to fill an unexpired term (I don't know of any others who did this). If you wish to talk up your excellent candidate's record on gays and lesbians then do so. But stop trashing Dean's. No thinking gay will take anything you say seriously if you continue this shitty behavior.

BTW if you bring up my questioning of Kerry's HIV votes that is not denegrating his record. I specifically say in that post his record is good and ask for an explanation.

[blm]

44. That's your answer to was Dean for gays in the military

serving openly back when Kerry and Clark were advocating for them?

Your answer is, to quote you, "shitty behavior"...and you certainly don't mind that gays think Dean told the truth when he said Kerry is "Bushlite" do you?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

48. You missed my point.

You don't CORRECT Dean or his campaign when they lie about Kerry, do you?

And you never answered the question. Did Dean throw his weight behind Kerry and Clark back then on gays in the military?

[dsc]

50. Try again

Maybe you forgot me telling Dean supporters to stop the crap on Get over it. Maybe your forgot me taking on Dean supporters on Skull and Bones. Maybe you forgot the myriad of other times I have defended Kerry. Frankly you make me wonder why the fuck I did since you show no compunction about pretending I didn't. I would bet my next paycheck I have correct around 20 times the number of Dean supporters trashing Kerry as you have Kerry supporters trashing Dean.

[blm]

53. Nope...haven't forgotten at all.

That's why it's amazing that you get so fired up whenever I ask a simple question like, what was Dean's position when this was being debated back THEN.

[dsc]

57. words have meaning and that isn't what you said

You asked why he didn't do anything not what he did. Again try being honest at least about what you say if you can't be bothered to be about what I say.

[cally]

51. DSC and BLM or others...this is an honest question

Could you summarize the record of Dean and Clark on gay rights. I know and am impressed by Deans record in Vermont. I'm confused about his statements about Gays and Lesbians in the military. I thought Clark would support the rights of Gays and Lesbians but the recent interviews I've heard imply that he will leave it to the military. I'm not sure where he stands on civil rights for gays and lesbians.

This is a question. I am not, repeat not, bashing either candidate. I'm just ignorant about this.

[sfecap]

55. "Equal Rights for All"

I’m proud to say that as Governor of Vermont, I signed legislation to grant homosexual couples the right to enter into civil unions. This law, the first of its kind in the United States, guarantees lesbian and gay couples the same basic legal rights that married couples enjoy: the right to inherit property, obtain child custody, visit a partner in the hospital, and control a partner’s affairs upon death.


The Republican Party seems eager to run against me because of my role in enactment of this historic law. I welcome that debate -- I can’t wait to ask the President of the United States why he doesn’t support equal rights. I can’t wait to ask him to repudiate the GOP-authored Defense of Marriage Act, an unconstitutional, mean-spirited law that stoked fears of homosexuality and pitted one group of Americans against another.


I’m tired of being divided. America is better than that. In this election, I promise that when Republicans pander to our lowest fears, I will fight back by speaking to our highest aspirations. I will offer the American people the chance to choose hope instead of fear, community instead of division, healing instead of hatred.


I’d like to tell you about my vision for an America that includes every one of us. As President I would:


Work to ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 bars employment discrimination based on race, religion, sex, and national origin. But nothing in federal law prevents an employer from discharging or refusing to hire someone because he or she is gay. I will fight for enactment of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to remedy this gap in federal law.

Strengthen federal protections against anti-gay violence. The murder of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming was not an isolated incident but part of persistent anti-gay violence in the United States. I support enactment of the Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act to help states investigate and prosecute bias crimes and to add “sexual orientation” to the list of protected categories in the federal hate crimes statute.

Give federal employees the right to name same-sex partners as beneficiaries. Major U.S. corporations, such as Boeing, Ford Motor Co., and AOL-Time Warner, have adopted human resources policies to allow employees to designate a domestic partner as a beneficiary of health and other employment benefits. The federal government should do the same.

End bias in the immigration laws. Current law authorizes family members of U.S. citizens and permanent residents to obtain immigrant visas, but the Immigration and Nationality Act's definition of family does not include same-sex partners. I support enactment of the Permanent Partners Immigration Act (H.R. 832) to add the term "permanent partner" to the statutory list of family members eligible to obtain immigrant visas.

End the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. Last November, several Arabic and Korean linguists from the Army's Defense Language Institute were discharged for being gay despite the critical need for qualified linguists in the war on terror. That was wrong. As President, I will offer gay and lesbian soldiers the opportunity to serve our country openly.

Ensure access to affordable health care, including AIDS/HIV Services. My health care proposal ensures that all Americans would have access to affordable health insurance. This would be a major step forward for individuals suffering from AIDS, many of whom lack coverage despite the need for costly life-saving interventions. I also support increased funding for public health programs like the Ryan White CARE Act.

As President, I will fight for the civil rights for all Americans, and that includes lesbian and gay Americans.



http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_equalrightsforall

[dsc]

56. Dean's record

Dean did all of the following as governor of Vermont:

Signed a civil rights bill which he was instrumental in helping pass in 1992.

Appointed the first openly gay VT House member in 1994.

Permitted joint adoption by gay and lesbian couples again in 1994.

Signed anti hate crimes law in Vermont.

Signed and helped pass civil unions bill in 2000.

In addition he has been strongly in support of gays and lesbians in the military, ENDA on the federal level, and an anti hate crimes bill on the federal level.

[cally]

58. Thank you Sfecap and dsc

I knew Dean's record on this was impressive but this puts it all in one place. I'm bookmarking it.

[dsc]

52. I am sick of this

This person directly lied about not Dean but about me. She claimed in direct opposition to facts that I agreed with that Bush lite stuff. She knew it to be a lie due to my having told her the direct opposite. If you are going to take my post down for truthfully calling a lie, a lie can you at least remove the lie given that it is about a fellow poster and not a candidate.

[StephNW4Clark]

11. "Don't Ask, Don't Misbehave"

Is a policy in place in US allies' military structure. Essentially, keep your private life private - regardless of sexual orientation.

But thanks so much for keeping an open mind because something isn't obviously and immediately apparent to you. If you want to know, do what most people do and look it up.

[w13rd0]

20. That is a policy I can live with...

...and not just in the military. I wish everyone followed that rule, from Ben & Jen to, um, Tom Delay... Don't ask, don't act out, stay out of my damn bedroom unless you want to participate and have been invited...

[dsc]

34. that would be the following

Don't ask don't tell means that if one publicly declares oneself a homosexual one is forced to leave the military. The term public here means things like saying it to other military personel (even if they are priests or psychologists), saying it to newspapers or other media, and acting on it.

Don't tell don't misbehave is quite different. There are a variety of things which are against military reguations regardless of orientation. Adultery, fraternization, sexual harassment, etc. That is what Clark means here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You know first this is old news

second off, Gays in the military is up there with women serving
in combat. We have not gone that way because of certain pressure
groups, but everybody connectd to the military knows that there
are Gays.

Now reality is sooner or later it will have to happen. You wnat it
faster, start writing some emails to congress critters.. and if
you have ANY connection to the military, make sure they know

[Beam Me Up]

12. Set up

I agree Clark's answer is not clear. However, the question itself has the ring of a set up. "Would you open the doors...?"

My understanding of Clark's position is that a) gays are already in the military and b) the 'don't ask don't tell' policy should be given further consideration.

[sfecap]

13. So the answer should have been very, very easy:

"Yes. I would welcome gays into the military."

Works for me...

[StephNW4Clark]

17. He did say it.

Clark, who is considered a possible candidate for the 2004 Democratic Presidential Nomination, pointed out that many NATO allies have abandoned their policies of discrimination against lesbian, gay and bisexual troops. Openly gay troops from allied nations "already are" serving together in joint exercises with the U.S., he said. "And they served together in Kosovo and in Bosnia and so forth."

The United States "should welcome people that want to serve," Gen. Clark told host Tim Russert.

Explain to me how he didn't say it?

[sfecap]

22. So...

The statements that you cite, "they already are", and "should welcome people that want to serve", means what?

Gee, we already know what Wes tells us, that (gasp!) there are indeed gay persons serving in the armed forces. (Wes sure is taking a Progressive stand on that one, huh?)

Then he really goes out on that proverbial limb and tells us we should welcome them, since they are already there. Wow! Now I'm really impressed. The veritable cutting edge of Progressiveness!

But...when asked directly, the first thing out of his mouth is "no".

(Maybe that's just a Freudian slip, huh?)

Show me one statement from Clark that says "As President, I would instruct the DOD to change the policy, period." Just a direct answer to a simple question, that's all...

[dfong63]

39. clark seems to hate straight talk

... so does that indicate he's a friend of gays? :)

[RobertSeattle]

15. Hmmm "Queer Eye for the Bulls Eye"...

[Donna Zen]

35. Yes

So curious that people can type and spell, but haven't come to grips with that "reading" thing.

[kaitykaity]

42. Personal Experience here . . .

When I was in the Army circa 1982, well before "don't
ask, don't tell", I lived with a lesbian (roommate)
and a gay man at different times. Both were E6s, and
both had clearances.

That's all I will say, as I am not in a position to
advocate for or against Clark.

However, there have been and always will be gays in
the military. At the very least, when a Democrat
wins in 2004, the draconian policies on this of
the Bush administration will be scrapped.

That's all that matters.

[captain_crunch]

43. This guy is absolutely ridiculous,

he's for both sides of every issue!