"a Dean supporter is a Democrat who hasn't heard Dennis speak"

[directinfection]

Any thoughts? Im not trying to bash dean supporters...but it just seems to me that the only reason Dean rose up was because of his public bashing of bush. All he had to do was rile up enough people, doesn't matter what his actual positions are. Are democrats that easily moved by such tactics? well, he crticizes bush so sign me up!Shouldn't the idea of where he stands be more important than "well i think he has the best chance of beating bush." If we all rallied behind a real progressive, wouldn't he have just as much as a chance? My vote goes towards the only person who has consistantly taken risks and stood up against bush (Dennis). I almost feel like Dean is the liberal in sheeps clothing.

article of interet:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030929&c=1&s=nichols

"Without the war, Dean's got nothing. But, because he opposed the use-of-force resolution, he says he's the only Democrat with the guts to oppose Bush. Of course, he has to ignore Kucinich."

"It's bizarre. Dennis is out there mounting a genuinely progressive campaign," says Steve Cobble, a veteran aide to the Rev. Jesse Jackson who now advises Kucinich. "Yet the media keep calling Dean the progressive, the liberal, even though Dennis is the one taking the progressive positions--just as he is the one who has taken political risks to advance them."

[Ellen Forradalom]

1. Dean is more centrist--which I like

I'd like a candidate to put together a center-left coalition to defeat the right-far right-Nazi coalition that's in power now.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. The earlier you compromise, the more centrist you become

In the first round of negotiation you don't compromise 50% of your platform. Kucinich and Sharpton and Moseley-Braun could have pulled together a center-left coalition, and with the organizing talent that Dean hired, they could have rebuilt a strong progressive Democratic base.

That is, if it is possible to elect representatives against the wishes of the corporate media, and all of the shallowness that entails. Perhaps it's not possible. I plan on voting for the Democratic candidate regardless of which corporate centrist wins, Clark, Dean, or Kerry. Clark seems the most electable, as long as he doesn't completely screw up and attack liberals or start pimping privatization and deregulation.

A Dean voter is a Kucinich voter that hasn't heard Dennis speak. Every Democrat that I know outside of DU has only spoken well of Clark and Kucinich, due to the obvious merits of both. Clark on his military background making him electable, and Kucinich for being an actual unabashed progressive populist Democrat, the kind that can win elections if we vote for him.

[poskonig]

46. Centrists have ideas too, y'know.

Just because one has different ideas doesn't mean one is a political pushover.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

47. centrists only have one idea

to play the center, to triangulate between two other ideas. But mostly, centrists do whatever their sponsors ask them to, whether it's a Lieberman fronting for Allstate or a Cheney fronting for Halliburton.

[poskonig]

50. Centrists have many well defined positions.

In addition, campaign fundraising is independent of ideology.

Normal people have a set of issues they have opinions on, and when we weigh the importance the individual places on each, we discern where they are politically. A person could be conservative on abortion but liberal on social security, and quite uncompromising, too.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

52. a prolife pro social security voter is not a centrist

just a few years ago that would be a moderate Democrat.

Prolife in the sense of anti-war, anti-death penalty, and personally against abortion.

[JohnKleeb]

55. youre right thats no moderate

Thats a person who happens to be conservative on one view yet liberal on another. That aint centrism.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

56. I believe Lieberman sued Allstate when he was CT Attorney General

I am pretty sure that when he was Attorney General in Connecticut, he sued the state's insurance companies for ripping off customers.

Lieberman is bad on some key issues, but on consumer advocacy he is very good.

You Have the Power!

[Eloriel]

59. Dean's sponsors are the people

He's not raising corporate money. He's the lead fundraiser again this quarter, and it's all The People's money. So your remark about centrists sort of dissolves if you're trying to include Dean.

Do you know what a target that makes Dean (in more ways than one)? So much of a target that Bill Clinton Himself had to rustle up a compliant DLC, probably Jackson-Stephens-funded plant.

I'm having a real difficult time understanding why people don't get that about Dean. That alone is revolutionary in this day and age.

Eloriel

[Orangepeel]

2. I've heard Dennis speak.

:shrug:

[dansolo]

45. So have I

And that is part of the reason why I support Dean

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

53. Ditto

I like Dennis much more on paper than during the debates or speeches. I like Dean's presence and his views.

[virtualobserver]

79. uh....mega-dittos? I like Kucinich.....

but I want someone who understands how to win.

Dean has shown clearly that he knows how to do that.
Not to slam Kucinich, but his last minute changing of his view from pro-life to pro-choice dissolved a bit of his purity for me.

Dean isn't perfect either, but clearly he is getting it done politically.

[JohnKleeb]

3. I dunno

I wish more would realize that Dennis really is one of the best out there. I am sick of being told to wait and about unelectable Kucinich. I guess I am stubborn :shrug:

[w13rd0]

8. Continue to be stubborn...

...I think every one of the candidates brings something to the table, and although Dennis isn't my choice, though I have listened to him, I have a great deal of admiration for his opposition to the Bush agenda, and I believe that those who have spoken out, like Dennis, have already had lots of impact on the race, despite the media...

[JohnKleeb]

11. thanks but it just bugs the hell of me

I never will get it. It is sad that he is seldom mentioned. I just wish more would pay attention to him.

[directinfection]

22. if anything...

he brings to the forefront issues that need to be addressed. which is why i will continue to support him, because i think we need to hear what he has to say. I think he sets a good example for the rest of the canidates. Ive given money to kucinich AND to dean...it would be a shame if kucinich fizzled so soon.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

57. Well, if it makes you feel better

I don't not support him because I think he is unelectable. I just disagree with him on a lot of issues that are important to me.

You Have the Power!

[dsc]

4. I lived for two years in Kucinich's district

and he ran in 92 for the Congressional seat I lived in then and live in now. He is on my local TV often. I have both heard and met him in person. That is more than I can say for Dean.

So why Dean and not Kucinich. Several reasons. Kucinich divides our party on abortion which would be fatal. There are several pro choicers who would never trust him on the issue. He has run a horrible campaign. He has been very shrill, to the point of being nearly scary, in virtually every debate. I have no clue who told him that was a good idea but I know he didn't behave that way running around here so I have to wonder what the problem is. He supported DOMA in 96 which is problamatic for me.

[Cha]

5. Also from the John Nichols article...

"Frankly, I was skeptical when the Dean people approached me. I had to be convinced," says Muehlenkamp. "But my experience of working with the guy has been a good one. I think his instincts are progressive, and I think he has been genuinely moved by the experience of this campaign. He recognized the anger at Bush--and at the Democratic Party's failure to challenge Bush--early on. He spoke to that, and the response was phenomenal. He's trusting his instincts. I think he's very genuine in what he is saying." "

[Cha]

23. I was a Dean Supporter when Dennis

entered the race and saw no reason to jump my Ship, although I like Dennis and he is my 2nd choice!

[CMT]

6. I've heard Dennis speak and I love alot of what he says

but I'm a Dean supporter.

[goobergunch]

10. Same here

The only real reason why I don't support Kucinich is that he has no shot at winning. I have stated previously that if he wins one elected delegate in either Iowa or New Hampshire, I will switch my endorsement.

[wickerwoman]

7. That's a bit patronizing.

I like Kucinich's positions generally but I don't forgive him for a miserable voting record on abortion rights.

Your intention is not to bash Dean supporters but you suggest that they are too stupid to research all the candidates and can't see through a "liberal in sheeps clothing(sic)"?

This thread is unconstructive flamebait.

[directinfection]

20. im sorry

I may have come off in the wrong way. But, in my experience most dean supporters praise him as the real progressive liberal, which doesn't always seem to be the case. Ive talked with several dean supporters, and it just seems like the reasons they give don't exactly match up with where Dean realistically stands. I just feel like he (or the media) is playing the cards he doesn't have.

[directinfection]

25. on abortion

I think in the beginning he did have a miserable record...but I think his record shows that he has changed his position. I don't at all feel threatened by his abortion record, because i believe him when he says he would protect the right.

[mandyky]

9. Wrong!

Nice try!

[Uzybone]

12. Risk???

It's bizarre. Dennis is out there mounting a genuinely progressive campaign," says Steve Cobble, a veteran aide to the Rev. Jesse Jackson who now advises Kucinich. "Yet the media keep calling Dean the progressive, the liberal, even though Dennis is the one taking the progressive positions--just as he is the one who has taken political risks to advance them.


Political risks??? Kucinich can say pretty much anything he wants because he has nowhere to go but up. I wish people would just say positive things about thier canidates instead of bashing another candidates supporters. I like Dennis K, but saying he is taking politcal risk is ludricous.

[JohnKleeb]

15. he has taken risks in the past

and yeah he does take risks, his district aint your typical liberal stronghold nor is it really that liberal. He wins and this may shock you with 50% of the republican vote.

[directinfection]

32. how so?

he consistantly sticks to his ideals.
how about muny light? Kucinich lost his re-election bid in 1979 because of his stand so i hear. His stance against the war, etc. etc.

[eyesroll]

13. I've seen DK speak twice, actually..

Dean twice and Kerry once, FWIW.

I admit Dean got my attention because of his Bush-bashing. (He got everyone's attention that way -- some liked it, some didn't.)
But I never assumed he was a progressive/liberal/whatever. The media are, well, the media. They say what they want.

I educated myself and choose to support him because I appreciate his pragmatism, his willingness to compromise, and the fact that he doesn't take the progressive vote for granted, or call us loonies or fringe activist elites.

Look, I like DK. I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if he got the nomination. But I like Dean's pragmatism, in a president, better than I like DK's idealism. Idealism is great, but I think he'd be better in House leadership. Nothing personal, just a preference.

[directinfection]

17. ...

no i get what you are saying. It would be a shame to lose him in the house, and realistically dean could make a good president, but i just feel like the democrats are too centralist. isn't that what greens and independents are for?

[JohnKleeb]

18. I get it too but

I am sick of the centrist shit too.

[directinfection]

21. no kidding

When will the democrats grow some balls?

[JohnKleeb]

24. some day

you know you really kinda expressed what I feel I seldom express my feelings on it but I get annoyed when you have someone like Kucinich in the race who really is something else and the press just ignores him it bugs the hell of me. I am a democrat all right but I am ready to return the party to its roots. Christ allmighty I am sick of waiting. To lyricly quote U2 in Bloody Sunday, "how long must we sing this song" its all too typical for me. What really got me liking Kucinich was his views and the fact that he brought up an issue that is truly unique and I like the guy plus I admire him for proving that a poor kid who works hard can make it.

[directinfection]

27. the press bugs me

...for the most part they flat out ignore that he is a canidate. Ive seen so many articles stating that grahamm was the only one to oppose action in Iraq...Not true! Every clip you see of him is shown in a negative manor. dang media!

[JohnKleeb]

28. Graham? damn

Well I do like the fact Graham voted against it the reason why because it wasnt hard enough bugs me. No offense Graham supporters. I do like him for attacking Bush on 9/11. It bugs me, and I show my frustration which is more sadness than anything. He voted that is Kucinich against the patriot act and was the only one to do so and the IWR so I think if you use that as a litmus test heh Kucinich is your guy although I dont use that.

[JNelson6563]

44. I see your frustration

and my initial reaction to your post was, in return, frustration.

Look, here is the reality of the situation: The Dems held a lot of power for a long time. The reich-wingers have been with us all along, quietly working in the background. Building networks, resources and all manner of helpful tools for usurping the government of the most powerful nation on earth.


Suddenly the quiet background work begins to come to fruition after the neo-cons began to realize their potential. They eat their own, basically abandoning Bush Sr. and focused all their energies on building the largest, strongest hate-based coalition the world has ever seen and the face of all they incited hate for was Clinton's.

The word "liberal" is used as a slur and has been for decades. This has been part of the gradual and oh-so-subtle take over of our country, political dialogue and government.

Maybe your man Kucinich palyed no part in the period of negligence on the part of the Dem Party that stood by and let this happen. Either too gullible or too aloof or too confident or whatever combination of things/characteristics the resulted in the situation we now have.

As you well know this situation is well along the way to full blown fascism. The Democratic had been effectively neutered and has stood idly by while this neo-con cabal has looted our treasury, dragged the country so far right moderates are labeled "flaming liberals" and got us mired in war that has no end in site or justification for that matter.

Here comes Kucinich with a fabulously Utopian plan for our country that would certain be a vast improvement of what we have today. Of course every idea the guy has is a million miles from what we noiw have and the neo-cons who worked so hard and so long for complete power would set their powerful resources to making sure this threat to their way of life succeeded in nothing. Tehy could easily paint it all as Socialism, the Welfare State. Time for you to get acquainted with Reagan's Welfare Queen tactics that made welfare recipients some of the most hated folks in America.

Yes, Kucinich thinks he can single-handedly just toss this 1 million ton rock all by himself (you can be damn sure Congress won't pass is plans). It cannot be done. It must be inched over to where it should be. We stood by, blind to their incredible achievement of inching it so far right before we pulled our heads out of our asses that it almost fell off the edge of reality!!!

I know you are young, idealistic and have grand ideas of how things should be. I applaud you for it. In reality though one must look at achievability in relation to goals. What Kucinich wants to do is achievable, just not in my, and maybe even yours, lifetime.

You simply cannot undo what has taken so many years to do. We now must put the years and effort into undoing it that they put into doing it. That is the long and short of it.

/rant

Julie

[JohnKleeb]

48. of course I am idealistic but you gotta understand

The reasons we are told he doesnt have a chance are a classic case of bullshit. His size for instance you realize that hes only a couple of inch's shorter than dean. We dont how congress will be. Why isnt it achievable, I am sick of waiting. Well what they did in '80 let it be right or wrong undid very quickly what we had built. I am sick of being told to wait, if you all gave me a dollar everytime you said I like Kucinich but hes unelectable well then I would have a bunch of money for the Kucinich campaign. I am sick of waiting, I really am. I dont like to sound like a spoiled child but this is nuts, we are told that our guy is too "ugly" to win, we are told he wont win because of his last name, and I addressed the height issue. How long must I wait, its shit like this that makes me consider leaving, and believe me it would not be good for me if I left thats the last thing I wanna consider. We lost RFK too young in 1968 and by waiting we may lose Kucinich and his great ideas too. I dont get it and you know what I dont care. It is a pathenic thing that I have to wait. I dont mean to sound bratty or harsh but lets say one of the "hardcore" issues that Kucinich supports is civil rights would you tell us to wait then, these things must be addressed. Again my apologies for yelling and ranting but I am sick of it, we havent a clue if hes electable or not. I am sick of waiting and its not just issues honestly. I really think we need a guy like Kucinich in the white house. I am tired of this. It nearly brings me to sadness.

[directinfection]

86. Well

I disagree, it doesn't take years to undo things. Now with our media i would have to say it would, especially with the bush misinformation squad going full gear. But political revolutions could happen. It just aint gonna happen if your voting base is consistantly upper middle class voters. There are a lot of disenfranchised voters out there. oh well, i Know im not embarssed to be a liberal, and if they best they can do to insult me is call me a communist or a socialist, I laugh.

"My name is James Connolly - I didn't come here to die
But to fight for the rights of the working man" (Black47)

[JohnKleeb]

90. Me and you think alike DI

I like that quote btw. We cant give in to fear. I remember the day we got the election stolen from us. It was a sad day. This is the moment. I am not willing to wait, I think waiting makes me more restless. I have had 3 wars in my young life at least fought by my country. Tell me is peace a good desire?

[Eloriel]

64. You're sick of waiting? How old are you again?

Sorry, but that's just funny coming from a young sprout like yourself.

Eloriel

[JohnKleeb]

67. I mean history and yeah I am young but goddamnit

I meant in general you know. Of course its silly.

[directinfection]

you said

"I admire him for proving that a poor kid who works hard can make it"

Me too. Me and my dad talk about this alot. I cannot relate to someone like lieberman or kerry on any level. Politicicans for the most part seem to be rich from my observation. I just don't trust that sometimes. i have this great bumper sticker: "politicians and diapers need to be changed -often for the same reasons"

[JohnKleeb]

92. He lives modestly too

My grandfather is someone like this, my dad although he grew up fortunate likes this. Kucinich is someone who I really admire. He had it so tough as a kid yet of all the candiates he was the first to enter politics, he first ran for city council at 21!.

[JVS]

83. When forced to.

When it becomes clear that not doing so will cause them to lose.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

60. I'd like to see DK run for Senate

I think that he would make a great senator...I can picture him leading a historic filibuster against this administration or any future administration's attacks on labor...maybe he'll even break Old Strom's record (which is really overhyped, since he did not actually talk for 24 hours and 8 minutes straight - they stopped at one point to swear in a new senator. So I think technically Wayne Morse should still hold the record!)

You Have the Power!

[JohnKleeb]

63. I bet he would too but I have my hopes on the presidency

Greedy sob lol I am. I really think he will be back in a future race even if he loses this primary.

[directinfection]

89. i think

he will be back. Because i think things are just gonna keep getting worse, regardless of whether a democrat wins or not. Look at clinton, from what i see the republican controlled congress refused to work with him. the other week i heard that the republicans were coming up with a new energy bill and weren't allowing any democrats in on it..newsflash..this is democracy. damn republicans. i used to tolerate them, now i hate them.

[clar]

14. I've heard Dennis

and I still support Dean. I just don't connect with Dennis. Perhaps, some of this has to do with that I'm a Vermonter. I feel like I know Dean. I may not agree with him on every issue, but I know him.

[Eloriel]

16. For my money, a Dean supporter is a Democrat who

HAS heard Dennis speak. Or screech, as the case may be.

Sorry, but he leaves a lot to be desired on that front.

To be honest, I think his politics are great. I do NOT, however, like him -- and there's nothing he or you or anyone else can say to change my mind on that. I know in my heart that he's probably a great guy. Shrug. Running a country, and getting elected to do so, is about a lot more than that.

Plus, he cannot offer what Dean offers: a great grassroots movement which has grown up around and through his campaign of people who are want to take this country back. It's a shame more people are not understanding this because I see it -- if Dean is successful -- as the entrance to the great liberal paradise I envision in my fantasies. "Taking the country back" is about a LOT more than just winning the White House. If you don't understand that, you should spend a little more time with the Dean candidacy and esp. his blog and the blog comments.

I also don't think you get from bascially fascist to as liberal as DK in one election. Or at least, not this election. (Things would have to get a LOT worse before we manage that.)

Besides, I like the vast majority of Dean's policies just fine. I especially like that he's incredibly pragmatic. While there are positions DK has that sound wonderful, some of them are literally undoable. What good is that? "Promise them anything, you'll never have to deliver anyway because they won't let you."

Dean's campaign is about overturning the "they," which is why everyone from Repugs to DLCers and the Clintons want to stop him. Can't have people taking back their power. It might upset a few applecarts and make a serious dent in some pocketbooks.

Eloriel

[sham]

36. I totally agree.

I have no delusions about Dean being my liberal knight in shining armor. I have observed all of the candidates for many months, and I understand that this country cannot and will not move from the extreme right to the extreme left in one election. People in general are too terrified of change for that to ever happen. But I believe that Dean will set us on the path. We (Dems and other Lefties) MUST win this election. We MUST. Period. If we don't, we're all fucked. From what I've seen, Dean's campaign has been the only one to mobilize and inspire mass numbers of people. That, more than anything else, even more than his being right about the war, is what excites me.

I don't think many people consider the very valid point that you bring up, which is that it is extremely unlikely that this country will go from fascist hell to liberal utopia within the next year. I dread what will happen when our new Dem president (whomoever he may be) gets into office, and struggles to find his footing, and everyone abandons him because he isn't fixing things fast enough. We're in deep shit and we can't be pulled out overnight. But we can begin the process of moving back toward the left.

[directinfection]

91. so if we lose

can we recall?
not realistic, but one can wish!
i don't think i can live under another term with bush. I think i'll revolt and end up in prison.

[JohnKleeb]

94. I dont know either I think this is everyone's moment

Kucinich with his vision has really inspired me. This is such a good fight.

[returnable]

78. "..the entrance to the great liberal paradise I envision in my fantasies."

And they say Clark supporters have a Messiah complex! LOL

And this notion of Dean as an "outsider" is ridiculous. Just read that Nation piece - Dean's campaign is propped up by Dem insiders! Even his slogan has been recycled from old Brown and Gephardt campaigns.

If people want to back Dean for pragmatic reasons, that's fine by me. Like you said, enough of his policies fall within my personal parameters to make him a viable candidate.

But this blind adulation is beyond me. Dean is not a savior out to overturn the status quo. He's a shrewd politician. Good for him.

[directinfection]

93. hes so shrewd

...it turns me off. but i would support him as the canidate if i had to.

[JohnKleeb]

95. I dont get people when they say I am an outsider

Dean I will support him as the nominee guys if thats the case. That country club quote was weird though, DK is part of the establishment I had no idea. I wouldnt call him an outsider either but hes different.

[quaker bill]

19. Democrat Dean supporter that has heard Dennis speak

Don't get me wrong, I like Dennis too. A campaign is about more than positions on issues. While this is an important ingredient and not to be overlooked, the ability to organize a movement that could raise the money and get you elected is also a key factor.

I think this is a strong test, perhaps the strongest test, of what it takes to rally the political will to your cause, which would make you an effective President.

Clinton had this. While I did not agree with all of Clinton's (some I found quite objectionable) policies, no person with less political savvy could have withstood 8 years of no-holds-barred political onslaught from the Right. While a small portion of the wingnut BS was of Clinton's own making, most was pure fiction.

Do you think for even one minute, that if the Dem nominee wins (regardless of whom) that the wingnuts are going to fold up shop and leave?

We had better find, among this crop, the person of strongest character and greatest political skill to be the nominee. Mr. Dean has, so far, shown the most skill in this regard.

The race is young, perhaps Mr. Kucinich or another will rise to the call. I do not agree with Mr. Dean on all of his issues, and true, I like Mr. Kucinich's positions better in some regards. If Mr. Kucinich can gather the political will of the people to his support, he will win the nomination, and I will back him all the way.

In the interim, I am donating to both, but expecting Dean or Clark to come out on top.

[Cha]

26. I know ...after the Dem nominee wins then there will be another

Major Battle to get things done! And that is another reason why I support Dean because I can think ahead.. with him in that Oval Office Doing what it takes to lead us out of the Quagmire of the bushwa.

[Eloriel]

65. Good points, quaker bill

And welcome to DU.

Are you a member of the Friends? If I did anything remotely "religious," that would probably be my choice.

LOL. I used to say, jokingly, I'd join the Unitarians or some other group except Sunday morning just wasn't a good time for me. So along comes a good Quaker who called me on that: "Oh, we meet on Sunday afternoon." Ooops! Caught. Okay, so now ALL of Sunday wasn't a good time for me. ;-)

Eloriel

[pansypoo53219]

29. i have heard DK, but prefer Dean

because DK is not gonna go anywhere. Dean is a fighter, but DK is strident. that is not the kinda thing that will appeal to the middle.
Clinton won by getting the moderate voter. Dean could get those voters.
and DAMMIT
we must defeat the simian!

[JohnKleeb]

34. ummm huh?

ummm you know I seem to recall this
http://www.kucinich.us/speeches/speech1.htm
I think this is even before Dean entered
How do you know Kucinich cant appeal to the moderate, he gets the 50% of the GOP vote in his district.
BTW on not going anywhere they said the same thing about Dean.

[directinfection]

37. yeah but

whats the moderate voter going to do for you when you have someone like nadar running? I was under the impression that many moderates voted for chimpy last election. I guess im not one to sacrifice my ideals because you might win the votes of moderates. We should take bush's winning strategy: pretend to be a "compassionate conservative" then conviently pull a switcheroo.

[eileen from OH]

30. Geez-oh-man

Living in NEOhio I've heard DK speak ever since he was the Boy Mayor. And maybe that's exactly why I don't need to hear anymore, thank you very much. Look, I know all about his fighting against Muni Light and the banks and how he won for the little guy and all that. He's been campaigning on that for years. But you have to understand that around here his rep (deserved or not, I repeat, deserved or not) isn't for that so much as being remembered as the guy who caused the city to default, the guy who narrowly escaped being recalled, the guy who lost after one 2-year term as mayor (to a Republican - Voinivich - in a very Dem city), and the guy who almost single-handedly turned Cleveland into a national joke.

Look, I don't think he's a bad guy. Heck, I'd vote for him. But I also thank God I won't have to.

I think if you took a poll there'd be more people OUTSIDE of Ohio that support him. And there's a reason for that.

eileen from NEOhio (and, no, I am not from his district.)

[JohnKleeb]

35. Didnt he get a commendtion from the Cleveland city council

We had a Clevelander here saying that DK saved him much.

[Emboldened Chimp]

31. I've heard Dennis speak plenty

which makes me like Dean more and more!

[jiacinto]

33. I like DK

but his anti-military positions will not work in 2003-2004. Also I think he'd make a good Governor or Senator from OH.

[Romberry]

38. I heart Dennis but...

...I don't think he plays well on the national stage. Dean's rise was because he connects with his audience and makes people feel as if they do in fact have the power to take their country back. That's why I'm a Deaniac.

[stickdog]

40. Many Dean supporters really like Kucinich but suffer from terminal

realism.

[ryharrin]

51. That's exactly my affliction.

I love Kucinich, I love Sharpton, and I love Braun, but I don't see any of them more electable than the other, which is to say not much at all. Dean is the best compromise that I can see.

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. Kucinich is far too radical for me

I'm sure he's a good person, but politically speaking, I don't like him. I support Dean and I'm not a liberal. I'm a middle of the road registered Independent "swing voter". You really need to realize that people don't support Dean because they are under some false impression that he's a liberal. You also need to understand that the "liberal base" you are used to has been essentially over-run by people who aren't "liberals" but just have been woken up by Dean and care enough to get out there and support him. The "base" has changed, and until people truly understand this, they don't understand why Dean is the best chance to beat Bush. As long as Democrats vote for him, all the new voters he's getting involved and excited will easily put him over the top. There is NO way Bush can beat Dean.

[Zorra]

76. When you say swing voter

do you mean you would actually vote for a retroglican? Sorry, but...Yuk!

[KaraokeKarlton]

80. I have voted for good Republicans, and there are some

Vermont Republicans are fairly moderate, and I frequently vote for them. I also vote for Bernie Sanders. Independent voters tend to "mix it up" and we vote for good candidates regardless of their party affiliations. I really like our Republican governor so far, Jim Douglas. He's following in Dean's footsteps and has a lot of praise for Dean. He slapped down those who opposed Dean protecting the Champion Land Deal by telling them he supported Dean's choices there and would not touch what Dean did. I can't stand Bush but I didn't mind his father for the most part. I wasn't doing cartwheels over him, but I didn't loathe him like I do his son. So yes, I'm a bonafide "swing voter" and I support Howard Dean.

[goodhue]

42. so true

Kucinich, Dennis
The Coming Transformation
7/31/03

http://audio.commonwealthclub.org/audio/03-07kucinich-speech.ram

http://audio.commonwealthclub.org/audio/03-07kucinich-qa.ram

http://www.commonwealthclub.org/2003.html#K

[dansolo]

43. Dean supporters are the ones who aren't listening to the media

I don't care what the media calls Dean. The people who have been paying attention know exactly what Dean stands for. I don't back Dean because I mistakenly believe he is a progressive. I am backing Dean because I know that he is a centrist. And since when does "attacking Bush" = "progressive"? Perhaps you should follow your own advise and actually listen to what Dean has to say, and not rely on talking heads. If you disagree with him, fine. But Dean has *NEVER* claimed to be a liberal. Have you even considered for a moment that maybe a lot of the people supporting Dean are not looking for a liberal candidate like Kucinich?

[directinfection]

72. my problem

with dean is that he has built this image of being liberal (intentional or not). Basic example is his statements on israel. He flip flops too much for me to know what he is really saying. Id rather support someone who is consistant. Dean has failed to convince me...maybe im wrong though.

[poskonig]

49. I've seen Dennis speak for several years.

I first saw him on CSPAN during a congressional debate. They were discussing missile defense, and Dennis brought an umbrella with huge holes cut in it as a prop. :)

On the issues and with personality, I'm more comfortable with Dean. I'm a physics student, and I find it refreshing to see people running politics who make decisions warranted by what the facts are, not based on principle, wishful thinking, or whatever.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

54. I've heard Dennis speak

and I do not like him. He is way too far to the left and too much of an ideologue for me...I would have to hold my nose voting for him if he were the nominee. There are some Dean supporters who might support Kucinich if they thought he had a chance of winning, but I am not one of them...if Dean and Kucinich were running against each other and there was nobody else on the ballot and one of them were going to become president, I'd pick Dean any day of the week.

You Have the Power!

[Closer]

58. I don't agree with you on that comment

However, with that said, I like Kucinich and what he stands for. He, Dean, Braun, Sharpton are the only TRUE Democrats even IN the race. I think he'd make a terrific Sentor and I hope he runs.

As for President, I'm sticking with MY leader, Dr. Dean.

[dean4america]

61. no

i find Kucinich too far left for my likings. Dean is a radical centrist, and that appeals to me.

[JohnKleeb]

62. a radical centrist what is that if I may ask

and Kucinich is pretty left and that really appeals to me plus I really like how he is self made. I dont think this statement appeals to all but I think more should give Kucinich a chance.

[MuseRider]

68. John

It is a sad thing when DK's platform is too left, it is actually based on what the party used to be. There are many who feel more comfortable in the center. A lot of them seem right of center to me and it seems to you but that is just our perception. The longer I am around here the less I care for Dean. It is unfair but he and the Deanies actually do nothing for me. Stay true to what you believe and work hard, I hope you actually get to see a day where Dennis Kucinich would win by a landslide. I am hoping for it now as well.

[JohnKleeb]

70. I get the same

I say to myself, am I a fool for not seeing what Dean is or ever the wise. I hope to see it now or any day now. I am sick of waiting. I like you originally supported Dean. Kucinich entered and I started to support him. I am sick of being told to wait. Really is harsh to tell one to wait, they wouldnt like it if I told them to wait.

[directinfection]

81. Democrats are whiners!

I never understood why kucinich is considered "far left"
He is everything i would look for in a democratic candiate. honestly, im thinking of backing out of the whole democratic party. All they do is whine and complain about how the evil republicans took everything away and cry about this big conspiracy. Now I don't doubt that Dumbsfeld and the neo-cons have some secret power hungry agenda going..but i just don't understand why its this big suprise, how did they not see it coming? Democrats turned soft the minute they stepped into the center, tip-toeing around trying not to be too "liberal." Perfect example, this whole war fiasco. When dubya got up there for his state of the union address... I KNEW he was lying. Most democrats signed up with his war resolution cause they were pussies...and now they are crying about he "mislead" him. He didn't mislead me. Democrats won't ever win until they fight with conviction. Stop being republican punching bags! Give it right back to them, I feel like they are constantly afriad of alienating moderate candidates. You lose just as many "radical" liberals that way as well.

[hedgetrimmer]

66. only you, not the media, not the dlc can tell you who is the progressive

http://www.thekooch.com/

[REP]

69. I Have Heard Him

and I don't like what he says or how he says it. Hearing him speak didn't send me to Dean - hearing Dean is what did that. Hearing Kucinich sent me from somewhat disagreeing to complete distrust.

John Stewart says that "the extreme right wing is trying to drag us back to a past that never existed, and the extreme left wing is trying to drag us to a future that would be unbearable." Kucinich strikes me fully as the latter.

Many, many Dean supporters aren't "settling" for who we think is electable. We know who he is and what he stands for, and agree with all or most of it. It's not that we don't know who the other candidates are - we know. Trust me.

[MuseRider]

85. Funny,

I am NOT flaming here but I started out with Dean and couldn't trust what he was saying! It is truly a big tent party. I'm staying with Dennis unless I have to settle.

Edit for stupid spelling error

[Ediacara]

71. LOL

[TLM]

73. Yeah yeah yeah... We're all just being duped...

we're all too stupid to figure out that Kucinich is more liberal than Dean.

We just haven't figured that out yet... that's the ticket.

It couldn't possibly be that we prefer a moderate to an extremist.

[directinfection]

82. blah

If Dennis is so extremist, what is a *real* liberal than?
wouldn't an "extremist" be more along the lines of a true socialist?

[JohnKleeb]

84. yes and I dont mind socialists

Call me radical, cause I am.

[directinfection]

87. if being a socialist

Means living in a country like france or canda, well, sign me up! Hell, i might even move. This country is the pitts. Im just so frustrated when "liberals" don't even act like liberals.


"My name is James Connolly - I didn't come here to die
But to fight for the rights of the working man" (black 47)

[JohnKleeb]

88. I prefer to stay and fight but I could leave

I am too its so the right fight what DK does.

[LSdemocrat]

74. No, I've seen them both speak in person, I support Dean

I prefer Dean's pragmatism and lack of ideology refreshing and inspiring, while I neither agree with Kucinich or am I impressed by him.

[gully]

75. I heard Dennis speak, and I heard him sing the national anthem at a debate

thus the lack of interest...

[MercutioATC]

77. Untrue in my case. I've heard Dennis speak.

And he doesn't do it for me. I'm much more of a pragmatist, and I don't see Kucinich being able to accomplish much of what he wants to. There are some of his ideas (like the Department of Peace) that I think are ill-concieved. I also don't like his speaking style at all.

[Upfront]

96. Yes Thoughts Hear

I have heard Dennis, I support Dean, enough said.

[JohnKleeb]

97. Aint gonna try to sway you but

You are a union person yes? Do you know about the Taft-Hartley act perhaps imho the most frivlous act against organized labor? because it aint Dean that supports repealing that its Dennis Kucinich. My motive is not to convert you to Kucinich but I think looking at their records Kucinich is perhaps the best labor can get and wants a workers white house. Sorry for the rant.