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Frist backs "intelligent design" and I have to say, I'm behind him on this

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:45 PM
Original message
Frist backs "intelligent design" and I have to say, I'm behind him on this
Creationism is dead and it's about damn time.

Everyone's talking about Intelligent Design now and it seems nicer. Intelligent Design sounds like a magazine I would subscribe to. When I think of introducing and idea like, Intelligent Design into a classroom, I'm kinda warm to notion. Why not take a break from straight science and examine a few hitherto unexplained things. Or underexplained things. This might spark interest in science. At least in the part where science is people asking questions. If the universe is under the purview of Intelligent Design, well then, we might just be able to figure it out.

Kids are damn sick and tired of "that just happened."
"That just happened," says the cracker boatman in Vernon, FL.
"Lets take all that you call 'that just happened' and put a name on it."

Lets call it 'intelligent design.'

Not bad. I actually, kinda like it. Given half a chance, it might combine with the our slumbering American Ingenuity, and cultivate flexible as well as muscular minds. Flexible minds, that can tolerate staying open for long periods of time. Why look at this as a loss for Darwin? Think of it as a win for Galeleo. Besides, if evolution were the end of the story, there wouldn't still be monkey's, would there?



I'm all about intelligence creating this.



and manipulating this:



From That Just Happened.



to asking questions about "design," of all things.



good design = good idea = intelligent design.



kids would really take to this.



oooh, they like that, don't they?



things that spin.



billiard balls in motion.



spinning



round and round

"

intelligent design in motion.



it's full of stars.



intelligent design?

"

intelligent design?



Holy Leap of Language, Batman.

I like this INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

pretty much, people who have been into 'intelligent design'



were right on the money.



things "don't just happen."

"

there's no stupid questions.



just people who ask them,

"

and people who don't.



the ability to 'sit with' challenging questions and not react



is a sign of grace of wisdom.



we're just asking:





it's not easy to ask for answers

"

we're not experts, or the best-dressed, best-looking, best-abled



but dammit, at least we're asking. no one ever told us we couldn't.



well, no one we'd ever pay any attention to.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. recommended
keeper!
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halobeam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. ditto that..... incredible post....
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 08:50 PM by halobeam
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Funny how he learned heart surgery on all those other mammals
...with amazingly similar hearts. That intelligent designer wasn't very creative - kept using the same design over and over...

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. You mean like this mammel here? (content warning)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow! That's a lot of
work you put into Intelligent Design..very impressive!
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nicely done
Bookmarked & recommended
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow!! That is absolutely great. What a trip, 'eh
Who is that little man with Hitler? junior's grandfather? There is a close resemblance's, do you see it?
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. That's Pope Benedict's face
I believe he was in the German Army or something like that.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. That's Pope Ben & the one connection in the photo essay I disagreed with
Benedict ain't my kinda Christian, but the rap on him being a nazi it utterly bogus. He wheedled his way out of the Nazi Youth movement twice. He wasn't particularly heroic about it, but his attempts to avoid that compulsory service do seem to have been sincere and consistant.

He's an extreme conservative, not a nazi. There's a huge difference there.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. wow -- didn't realize that -- nice catch.
it's googletronic.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Awsome post.
My daughter was playing this George Winston sounding thing on the piano and the post kept scrolling. I got chills.
Thanks for that. recommending.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. my iPhoto is messing up or else i would have done this as a slide
show with music. it's really easy. i'm sure it would lend itself to lots of genre's -- but george winston sounds great to me!
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. No. (the face on Mars C'mon?)
Scientists don't say that "creation" ended with us, creationists do.

(or am I missing your sarcasm?)

Evolution Wars Show No Sign of Abating

In Tulsa, the zoo's board first voted to include a creationist display in answer to the complaint about the elephant-headed Hindu god and another display creationists considered religious, then reversed itself. The Georgia warning-sticker case will be resolved by a federal court ruling within the next several months. In Kansas, science is "still under siege," according to the NCSE. The final form of the proposed science standards scheduled for a vote in September remains unclear.

Then there is the legislation introduced in the South Carolina legislature that is based on antievolution language that originally was part of the No Child Left Behind bill. The antievolution language was eventually stripped from the federal bill. The South Carolina bill, whose author wants students to be taught "more than Charles Darwin's theories of evolution," will top the agenda when the legislature reconvenes in January.

In Pennsylvania, a house subcommittee on basic education just concluded hearings on a bill that would allow school boards to include intelligent design in their K–12 science curriculum. The hearing was held as lawyers prepared for a trial over an order by the Dover Area School District in Pennsylvania that intelligent design be taught in biology classes as an alternative to evolution. Eleven parents challenged the order and the trial is set for September.

As NCSE's Branch noted, it has been a very busy year in the evolution wars, and indications are that the battles will heat up even more in the coming months.
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-8/p24.html
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lynettebro440 Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Very Nice
Kicked and Nominated.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. Absolutely thought provoking
Beautifully done
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. "and coming from the dalai lama..."
:)

(that's what my husband said when i showed him your post. he doesn't DU -- the avatars confuse him.)
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. What's the little metal ball shown twice?
Held in fingers, and compared to the Death Star?

I remember seeing it before, can't find it on the internet now, and it's bugging me that I can't remember the story behind it.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. honestly -- i don't know exactly except to say that it's one of those
archaeological things that isn't easily explained without a leap of faith. i was taken with how it fit with "design" as meaing morphology -- finding patterns. repeating pattens. i'll see if i can't dig up some links -- i think there's something about it's metalwork that makes it enigmatic.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. found something on the spheres
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 PM by nashville_brook
Grooved Sphere from South Africa (Precambrian)
http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~ghi/spheres.html

Over the past several decades, South African miners have found hundreds of metallic spheres, at least one of which has three parallel grooves running around its equator. The spheres are of two types--"one of solid bluish metal with white flecks, and another which is a hollow ball filled with a white spongy center" (Jimison 1982). Roelf Marx, curator of the museum of Klerksdorp, South Africa, where some of the spheres are housed, said: "The spheres are a complete mystery. They look man-made, yet at the time in Earth's history when they came to rest in this rock no intelligent life existed. They're nothing like I have ever seen before" (Jimison 1982).

We wrote to Roelf Marx for further information about the spheres. He replied in a letter dated September 12, 1984: "There is nothing scientific published about the globes, but the facts are: They are found in pyrophyllite, which is mined near the little town of Ottosdal in the Western Transvaal. This pyrophyllite (Al2Si4O10(OH)2) is a quite soft secondary mineral with a count of only 3 on the Mohs' scale and was formed by sedimentation about 2.8 billion years ago. On the other hand the globes, which have a fibrous structure on the inside with a shell around it, are very hard and cannot be scratched, even by steel." The Mohs' scale of hardness is named after Friedrich Mohs, who chose ten minerals as references points for comparative hardness, with talc the softest (1) and diamond the hardest (10).

In his letter to us, Marx said that A. Bisschoff, a professor of geology at the University of Potchefstroom, told him that the spheres were "limonite concretions." Limonite is a kind of iron ore. A concretion is a compact, rounded rock mass formed by localized cementation around a nucleus.

(here's the kicker)

For the purposes of this study, it is the sphere with three parallel grooves around its equator that most concerns us. Even if it is conceded that the sphere itself is a limonite concretion, one still must account for the three parallel grooves. In the absence of a satisfactory natural explanation, the evidence is somewhat mysterious, leaving open the possibility that the South African grooved sphere--found in a mineral deposit 2.8 billion years old--was made by an intelligent being.

(i'm looking for more recent stuff, but this hits the highpoints -- it's the age of the layers of rock they are found in.)
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. kick
lol
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. This is my favorite post EVER
thank you.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. omg -- high praise
i'm not worthy... :)

so glad i could make a smile or two!
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. One of the greatest posts. Ever.
the photo from Camp Casey was Life Magazine worthy... I have no idea who took that photo, but it's an award winner.

The post is an award winner, as well.
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
24. The Most intellegent of all - The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
<>
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. is that -- it can't be -- is that
where is that from?
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. finally
By his noodly appendage. All hail to the Spaghetti monster.

The pirates chart convinced me there is no denying it. I thought I was tuck with the choice between being a sophisticated ape or a dream of an incorporeal creature. Now there is hope.

:D
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. where is the image from
the style looks very familiar. the palette.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. Apostate!
The Invisible Pink Unicorn was the creator of the Universe.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
26. let me summarize
Edited on Mon Aug-22-05 05:31 AM by Kellanved
A higher being - we'll call him, her or it Alphonse from now on - who somehow, some time ago magically did all the things that either a) don't fit into the world view of certain people and/or b) are not explained so far, did steer the creation(<- indeed) of the current earth.

So, the ID-philosophy basically says: let's stop researching, a higher being is responsible for all the things we haven't figured out yet. And it is saying that with the fingers in the ears and its eyes closed.

The question raises: who created Alphonse? And if he/she/it wasn't created, then why does earth need a creator?

No, ID is Creationism with the bible parts beeped out. Basically creationsim as heard on Springer.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Not Alphonse. It's the Flying Spaghetti Monster!...
see the post above, and here:

http://www.venganza.org/

May you forever be touched by his noodly appendage.

Sid
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. " And if he/she/it wasn't created, then why does earth need a creator?"
Edited on Mon Aug-22-05 06:07 AM by Mairead
Because he/she/it is incorporeal, and Earth is not. Corporeal things have a starting point because they also decay.

(I'm totally agnostic, tending strongly to atheistic, but it has to be said that there's nothing intrinsically impossible about some eternal entity existing outside and causative of our space-time continuum.

Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein.)
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. Very good post.
Well done. :)

Peace.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
31. ID is crap
and by this sentence, "Flexible minds, that can tolerate staying open for long periods of time. Why look at this as a loss for Darwin? Think of it as a win for Galeleo. Besides, if evolution were the end of the story, there wouldn't still be monkey's, would there?" you prove you don't understand evolution, or the mechanisms by which evolution works, much like virtually all ID proponents.

Slide show is nice, sort of... full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. it's satire
play on words

for fun

like a roller coster ride

or when Mr. Chompers brings you his ball

nothingmorenothingless
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. hubby says
and by this sentence, "you prove you don't understand evolution, or the mechanisms by which evolution works, much like virtually all ID proponents," you prove you don't understand humor, or the mechanisms by which humor works, very much like ID proponents.

:)
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. It didn't read as satire, as the above posts clearly show.......
Any support for "teaching" ID, or any religious dogma, in public school science classes is starting us back down a very dangerous slope....
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Agreed -
And I didn't see it as satire either. And my satiradar is pretty damn good.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. how so?
when was the last time you had your satiradar calibrated?
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. the posts above and votes show that plenty of people "got it"
no where in my post do i propose to teach relgious dogma. i'm working with language.

holy leap of language, batman.... and all that.

however, i don't think it would hurt anyone to teach comparative religions, or history of christianity, or history of islam, or phil of religion in primary school. just because the subject is "religion" doens't make it devotional.

likewise, just b/c the subject is science or history of ideas, doesn't mean it isn't subject to fundamentalism.

i took a boat-load of religion classes in college. lots of art history that examined "religious art." poly sci classes that looked at religous struggle; and history classes that looked at the history of ideas, including christianity. i survived with mind intact. they weren't devotional.

by pointing to intelligent design -- not designer -- i am invoking the ghosts of descartes, kant and all the other dead white guys who believed the universe was intelligible. it's a mechanism by which to subvert the frame. humor by any other name.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Sorry, I prefer my science
without religious dogma attached.
Sure teach the history of science and it's conflict with religion(magic), but when teaching science, let's keep leaps of faith out of it.
I would point you to Richard Dawkins, one of the best writers of the 20th century on evolution.

I get my radar calibrated regularly, and I was not the only one who missed the 'funny bits'.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Disclosure: I am an artist with a strong interest in science (and several
scientists in my family). That said...

I have the uncomfortable feeling that the rightwing political assault on science and rational thinking, and also on humanism and our Enlightenment heritage in general, may be pushing people to take sides in a matter that really shouldn't have "sides."

I began thinking about this problem long ago, after reading Carl Sagan's "Cosmos." (--saw the show long ago, but didn't really catch some things until I read and thought about the actual text). Sagan had a very great distaste for the Pythagoreans and the Neoplatonists, because these early philosophers were, in his view, "mixed up" with mysticism (they thought that numbers and certain shapes had mystical significance, and held certain things as "secrets" from the common herd of humanity, etc, etc.). And he had special venom for astrologers--ancient and modern.

But it seems to me that Sagan misses something rather big: that astrology is the MOTHER of astronomy, just as herbology (which also has mystical elements) is the MOTHER of modern pharmaceutical science and medicine. In fact, all the sciences can be traced back to some early, shamanistic, magical-mystical human craving for understanding and for connectedness to the world and its phenomena.

Astrology--the desire of us humans to place ourselves into some kind of connection with the vast starry cosmos--CAME FIRST, and the methods of astronomy--detailed study of the patterns in the sky, and understanding what the objects in the sky are--CAME SECOND. Probably one of the first insights of early astrologers (the first astronomers) was the variety in the movements of sun and moon, and their relationship to ocean tides, weather, good planting times, the mating patterns/behavior of wildlife, and other matters of immediate concern to humans. They--the smartest humans, the shamans and the astrologers--NOTICED these relationships, began to REMEMBER them and pass that knowledge forward, and eventually started creating calendars (notations) of repeated patterns--in the sky, and on earth--so that they could inform others of what was coming and plan accordingly. (Time to build your hut, winter storms coming; the salmon will be arriving soon--the Sun God says so...)

There was no such thing as "pure science"--as a concept--EXCEPT for the "pure science" that occurs when a human being simply observes a physical phenomenon, or "plays" with objects (tosses a feather in the air and watches it float down to the ground). There was "pure science" in actuality--or else we would never have learned anything--but not in concept, as a pursuit that is strictly apart from who we are, and how we fit into everything else.

Everything was connected to everything else, with humans obviously caught somewhere in "Middle Earth" between the grand forces that literally determine our fate, for instance, whether we and our tribe are going to starve to death--the blazing sun, the waxing moon, the thunder gods--and our own clearly limited power (as compared, say, to the thunder gods), and the dexterity and intelligence that we are born with, and with which we exert what will we are able to, on things and people.

It seems to me quite natural that humans would believe themselves to be part and parcel of everything around them--dependent upon, and part of, the plants, the wildlife, the seasons and the heavenly bodies. Science began as a medium--an arbiter--among these forces. It was not abstract, and not particularly rational (although based on observation), and it tended to be both practical (how things work; what works) and comforting (if you put this poultice on your belly, and drink this tea, the Moon Goddess will give you an easy birth--because THESE ARE HER SPECIAL HERBS AND GIFTS TO WOMEN).

The personification of the powers around us just naturally occurs to us. What evolutionary purpose does this belief in "the powers" serve? Why did/do those humans survive and procreate who believed in such "powers"? Who knows? But the two things went together: our ability to understand and utilize scientific information, and our belief in "gods," evolved together, and were related to one another, and this lasted for thousands and thousands and thousands of years of human existence, before anybody thought of the notion of "pure science" or strictly rational thought.

For thousands of years, ASTROLOGERS perfected their understanding of the heavenly bodies--with incredible accuracy, given their "irrational" beliefs--before it occurred to anyone that the sky should be studied for its own sake. The purpose of such study, in ancient times (and not so long ago), was to predict and control events on earth that affected humans.

It's easy to despise most manifestations of modern astrology. It all seems so silly to us (or to many of us) now. But are we missing something big in disdaining it? The origins of our thought. Our deepest desires. How things really work in the vast, vast, mysterious universe. And how our own minds work. And are we suffering from an overly-rational evolutionary side-track, by insisting on the hard line division between science and religion (including mysticism, irrational, intuitive insights, and all kinds of "alternative" experiences)?

Also, is it not true that science has become our god and our religion, with scientists as our high priests, to whom we give too much faith? "Pure science" has created some damnable problems for us--nuclear weapons, for instance, and pervasive, planet-killing pollution. Shouldn't science--as with capitalism--be strongly tempered by ETHICS, SPIRITUAL INSIGHT, WISDOM, and COMPASSION--and not allowed to run rampant on its own? By pure rational terms, we should be euthanizing half the population of the earth as unfit (--just as by pure capitalist terms, we should provide no communal, consensus supports for workers or the poor or the old; use them up, throw them away).

In this debate about evolution vs. "intelligent design," I wonder if we can't make room for some broader thoughts. For instance, I don't like the way science is often taught--albeit by inferior teachers, but there are a lot of them--as a GIVEN KNOWLEDGE SET, not as a grand, ten million-year EXPERIMENT in figuring things out.

I certainly don't think that anybody's god should imposed on children or anyone else. And I know the history of religious persecution very well, so I understand the absolute necessity of a secular state--at least at this point in our evolution, with Inquisitions and witchburnings, and the Catholic-Protestant wars, not that far behind us--and most especially today, with rightwing fascists and war profiteers trying to stir up another Christian-Islamic war.

But--if you could put this rightwing assault on science aside--wouldn't it be best NOT TO *TEACH* either thing--evolution or "intelligent design"--as some sort of rock solid certainties that all must choose between, and then believe in? Why not, instead, GUIDE students through WAYS OF THINKING ABOUT these problems, so that they can REACH THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS? Maybe some genius among them will one day overturn Darwin? Or take Darwin's data and insights (and those of others), and make a great leap forward, far beyond Darwin to some currently unimaginable reality about life on earth?

If we force-feed given scientific "authority," we make the biggest mistake in the entire history of science--that brilliant new insights get ignored and scorned, because they very often come from left-field, from rebels, from people willing to toss it all over, and re-think everything from a completely unorthodox angle.

And, in that respect, isn't the real question WHY humans NEED, why humans DESIRE and why humans PERCEIVE "intelligent design"? (We DO, you know--every one of us, all the time. It seems fundamental to how our brains work--whether it leads us to belief in God or not.) And, the corollary, how do our needs, desires and perceptions color how we interpret physical phenomena? (There is a fascinating book by Stephen Jay Gould about human hubris--of the Victorian kind--in interpreting evolution as "leading to us," rather than having been quite a scattershot and wild plethora of life--as if Nature were inventing every imaginable possibility--that only RESULTED in us, with our ancestral worms just making it through some ancient planetary catastrophe "by the skin of our teeth," so to speak. No design (toward "higher beings"). Just chance. A very humbling and thought-provoking book--although I don't quite buy the whole theory; it's may be too grand for the limited data that we have.*)

Just as with Bush and his false and narrow political alternatives--"you're either with me or you love terrsts"--the rightwing may be leading us down a garden path of LIMITED alternatives in how we study--and how we teach the study (and what we include in the study)--of physical phenomena.

And could it be, also, that the rightwing fanatics who are leading this campaign are actually--inadvertently--pointing to something we all need to think about: that our rationalist, materialist, capitalist society is EMPTY of meaning; that it leads to ugly shopping malls, and frankenfoods, and polluted air, and traffic jams, and personal alienation, and nukes to "protect" all our meaningless goods, and huge military expenditures to insure our extraction (or the extraction by global corporate predators) of all the last natural resources of the earth?

A longing for meaning. A spiritual longing. A desire for a higher sense of purpose. And a hunger for love and compassion.

Odd, to be describing what rightwingers might want in this way--they so often seem stupid and ugly and repressive. But they, too, are human, and maybe aren't so gifted as the rest of us at expressing what they want (or even realizing what it is).

Once again, I understand the FEAR of rightwing repression. It is a reality-based fear, if there ever was one--such repression has an ugly and scary history. And I'm not saying we shouldn't defend science--and also teachers and students--against rightwing propaganda. I'm just trying to prevent this discussion from being too limited. And Nashville_brook's "right-brain" post--all this free association (however it was meant)--jiggled my mind and got me to thinking about it all.

--------

A good review of Gould's book, "Wonderful Life" (by Kurt P.Wise):

http://www.arn.org/docs/orpages/or131/wise.htm

"To conclude, as Gould does, that man is "...a wildly improbable evolutionary event..." (p. 291), "...a detail, not a purpose..." (p. 291), and "...a cosmic accident..." (p. 44) is disconcerting to some, but not to Gould. To him, release from any purpose is 'exhilarating' as it also releases any responsibility to any other, "...offering us maximum freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our chosen way" (p. 323). If ever evolutionary theory has been elaborated to the point of complete incompatibility with a Christian world view, it is by the pen of Stephen Jay Gould in this, his most recent tome."

(Note: I don't know if I agree with the reviewer's conclusion, or with Gould's, for that matter. Gould does conclude on a positive note about the absolute glory of freedom from all "manifest destiny." Nobody "chose" us. We are here. Make of it what we will. That is an extraordinarily wise way to think about things--it can help you be more creative, and more responsible--the ultimate responsibility, it's ALL up to us, quite literally, whether we create a good society or a living hell, and whether we do something with our life or waste it. However, I just think there are still too many unknowns for such a big conclusion. The universe is H-------------U-------------G-------------E! And we understand it about as well as ants in an ant colony understand the earth. Not very well. We have also cut off our "right brains" from our "left brains." Real understanding may not be--in fact is not very likely to be--limited to what we consider rational thought and hard data (of which very little is available to us, in any case). And, finally, Christian theology at least teaches "free will"--total, absolute free will, to choose good or evil. Some Christians may not act accordingly, but the teaching is there and it is fundamental. The reviewer is wrong that Gould's theory is "completely incompatible" with the Christian world view. It's a great book, though!)
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. omg -- i love what you say!
i spend most of my time in the left brain with my Writing, with a capital W. i took the weekend "off." i actually meant to paint this weekend, but these images and thoughts were going to take way too long to paint. i needed to put them on "paper" asap or else i would have lost the passion.

imagine all the great ideas that are lost because the passion is lost. we might have flying cars if minds were encouraged to wander more.

i so appreciate your post -- thankyou for taking the time to get it all out on "paper."
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. last nite when i read you post for the first time, i didn't much time
me too -- family of chemists and poets -- taking sides is not uncommon. it's counterproductive, but it also informs us of an unresolved tension which is where every good artist/scientist knows, all the goodies are hidden.

your post was wonderful. you should post that to its own thread!
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Maybe I don't have a sense of humor, but I didn't get the bits
about the a) monkey and the b) "Man on Mars," in which you seem to hold a) an actual anti-evolutionary view and b) a belief in an anthropomorphic misreading of a blurry photograph (the "Man" disappears in photos taken at higher resolution). So you seem to be taking an anti-science position after all, in which case, what you claim to be satire is actually an endorsement of Frist's and Republican anti-scientism.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. i just love monkeys, if i would totally be making more of these
Edited on Mon Aug-22-05 05:24 PM by nashville_brook


and less of these



on the left


i love the vernacular democratic fervor this expresses



and the truth that lies at heart of asking questions (science)



instead of having answers (religion).



which has cozied up to fascism in our most recent experience of it



when religion gets involved it isn't just science that gets attacked, it's asking questions as well. it's a pity when the left does this.

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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Point of matter is: If they teach ID, we can Sue them to include the
scriptures of the Flying Spagetti Monster. If they must force the Christian verson, then they must also force that we were in fact created by the FSM and we were touched by his noodley appendage.

<http://www.venganza.org/>

<>

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
40. A touch incoherent.
Can't tell if you know what you're talking about or not. As free association it's entertaining, but as a coherent essay with a point worth defending? It needs work.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
43. Mega cool, is my intelligent response.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. recommended. nice post.
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