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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:10 AM
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UK's Independent comments on Clark Campaign ability
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=448263

<snip>

"We get to see them close-up, beyond the soundbites, their body language, whether they are condescending, whether they are genuinely interested in what worries people."Clark passes the test handsomely. He has none of the tell-tale starchiness of many generals out of uniform. Supple, charming and articulate, he fields questions on education, the economy and health care as well as Iraq and national security matters. We learn that he would decriminalise the use of marijuana for medical purposes, but opposes a constitutional amendment allowing gay marriage.He freely admits he won't have a proper health-care plan ready for a few weeks. His economic thoughts are also fluid, though he wants to repeal the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy. Most movingly, he deals with a woman who served in the army and was sexually harassed, without redress. "I apologize, I really do. I was a senior officer in the army, and obviously we didn't do our job." He promises to meet her privately afterwards to discuss her case - and does.Inevitably, however, Iraq dominates, and Clark is scathing. "Force must be used only, only, only, as a last resort." Bush, he says, has acted recklessly, destroying respect for the US around the world. As for the doctrine of "pre-emptive" war, "Every nation has the right of self-defence. What is nutty is that you start a war to prevent a war that was never going to happen." Herein lies the bottom-line appeal of Clark - his military credentials to challenge Bush on national security issues, and win the argument.The session lasts an hour, and afterwards Peter Lehnen is highly impressed. "He was very thoughtful and imposing, very sensible. I'll certainly support him financially."

But he adds, "If Clark starts changing his positions for the sake of expediency, he'll turn me off. We've already seen a bit of that with Dean."Of the several obstacles standing in the way of Clark, the least is his belated embrace of the Democratic party. That rivals attack him for naked opportunism only confirms the potential threat they see in him.In truth, Clark's views - pro-affirmative action, pro-choice, in favour of budget discipline at home and multilateralism abroad - are pretty similar to those of another eminent general, who happened to join the Republicans. Just as you could imagine Colin Powell as a New Democrat, Clark could equally easily be a moderate Republican. Indeed, he admits to having voted for Reagan, and only in May 2001 he was captured on film extolling the virtues of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al.In fact, both Clark and Powell are centrists. Both appeal to the independents, and not only independents, dismayed at the mindless polarisation of American politics. Take Charles Galemmo, a 42-year-old chef who plans to start his own restaurant, and who typifies those who joined the grassroots campaign urging the general to run."I was fed up with Bush," he says, "I looked into the other Democrats. They were OK. Then I saw Clark on TV in July. He's pretty charismatic and I agreed with 95 per cent of what he said. The fact he hasn't got detailed policies doesn't worry me. He's stated his principles. As for the details, things change when you get in office - they never come out like you expect."And who knows? If Wes Clark can build on this early momentum, the nomination and even the White House may be within reach. But even if he fails, his very presence in the field will have made it harder for the President to beat the Democrats with the national security stick.Indeed for Bush-haters, no prospect is sweeter than the first candidates' debate of autumn 2004.

... who avoided service in Vietnam (but had the carrier USS Abraham Lincoln delay its return to port to permit his silly Top Gun moment) turns to his crisp and polished Democratic opponent: "General..." The posters swirling outside Dover's town hall, depicting a smirking boy-Bush in pilot's gear and a steely Wes Clark with four stars on each shoulder, make the same point. "The Pretender vs the Contender." Clark's real problems are a lack of time and money. Dean and his other main rivals have been running for more a year, while the first primaries are less than four months off. <snip>

Clark was a critic of the war, but is even more critical of the rough-heeled swagger with which Bush handled it. "He claimed to be a 'compassionate conservative'," he told the crowd at Dover, "but he's turned out to be heartless, reckless and wrong. Billions of people around the world used to love this country, but now they are afraid of us."With each passing day, Clark sharpens his language against a President who wraps himself in patriotism while pursuing policies that widen the gap between rich and poor, and erode civil liberties: "Patriotism is about more than flags. Patriotism means protecting freedom not only from those from abroad, but also from those occupying positions of power in Washington, who want to take it away from us."The cheers are deafening, but after half-an-hour the rally is over. Clark is gone, and by mid-afternoon Dover has reverted to its normal inconsequential self. His campaign is a work in progress, and the general must be counted an outsider. But these are strange political times in America. For a little while at least, on dank autumn days in New Hampshire when a presidential primary beckons, no mission seems impossible. 1 October 2003 11:01





http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=448263
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:41 AM
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1. Great article.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Clark could equally easily be a moderate Republican"
Just as you could imagine Colin Powell as a New Democrat, Clark could equally easily be a moderate Republican. Indeed, he admits to having voted for Reagan, and only in May 2001 he was captured on film extolling the virtues of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al.In fact, both Clark and Powell are centrists.

That's the figural bit for me, and why he won't get my vote. It's self-defeating to say that the label the candidate wears is more important than the positions se takes. The last Republican I voted for was Gore, or possibly Clinton. Never again.

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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You left some things out.
Edited on Wed Oct-01-03 11:06 AM by BillyBunter
The preceding paragraph:

In truth, Clark's views - pro-affirmative action, pro-choice, in favour of budget discipline at home and multilateralism abroad - are pretty similar to those of another eminent general, who happened to join the Republicans.

And in particular, I think this one is quite telling:

In fact, both Clark and Powell are centrists. Both appeal to the independents, and not only independents, dismayed at the mindless polarisation of American politics.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. IOW, you concede Clark is much like Powell, & that he could easily be
a moderate Republican -- and it doesn't bother you? You don't notice any problem with this?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I didn't leave them out in the sense you mean it
Edited on Wed Oct-01-03 11:37 AM by Mairead
I don't care about things like that: we get those for free with any 'leftist'. They are what is known in compensation theory as 'hygiene factors'.

The right wing --or at least the 'moderate' part of it-- has figured out that they can give us stuff that doesn't cost them anything, while continuing to concentrate money and power.

It's like buying Manhattan Island for a box full of trinkets from people who don't at the time really grasp what's being done to them because their value system is so different.

And it's like a predatory company like WalMart selling below cost to drive their competition out of business. Once they're the only game in town, they raise their prices and everyone is fscked.

And it's like a pusher giving away 'free samples' for awhile. By the time the 'samples' stop, it's too late.

I'm totally opposed to that kind of 'centrism'.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think we meant it in
exactly the same way. There was a reason I used bold on part of my post.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Billy, do you not see what is going on here?


"Both appeal to the independents, and not only independents, dismayed at the mindless polarisation of American politics."


Mindless polarisation... it is an attempt to make standing up for the left a bad thing. It is a bad thing to stand up for your side and to hold ground... no that's just mindless.

We should vote for someone who could be a dem or a republican, depending on the mood of the day.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Then could you clarify a bit, because I didn't understand
What it looked as though you were saying is that Clark's appeal is to people who would like a single, 'centrist', 'national unity' party. Which, since you support Clark (yes?), I presume you feel such people are a decisive number, possibly even a majority. What am I not understanding?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Exactly, they just ignore that part... Clark says the right things


so his actual record of republican support and alliance with hard core neo-cons is t be ignored. Forget that he worked with Kissinger or that he wants to work with the PNAC crew again.

Nothing to see here.

He has had a D by his name for almost 3 weeks now, and that should be good enough. Nevermind his total lack of a progressive record or any real policy positions. He just has to SAY the right buzz words, and we should vote for him.


It the words of Jon Stewart, "Do they think we're retarded?"


Clark... don't vote for their republican, vote for ours.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. There's something "Strangelovian" about Clark
There's nothing about him that I trust. He's got no Democratic record to prove his Democratic mettle nor has he proven that he can govern civilians in a democracy. He reeks of a stealth candidate.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Yes, trust is the big issue here I think...


I do not trust Clark... and all I heard about Clark was from the booster club, not Clark.


When I looked at Clark's actual history... I did not like what I found. This guy is nothing but bad news for the democratic party.

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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. LOL
He's winning over the media and now the Deanies are out in force.

Oh, the humanity!
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Can't defend clark so attack Dean...


Attack the messengers who ask the questions abotu Clark that you boosters can't answer.


As for winning over the media... Clark never had to win over anything, he's the DLC establishment golden boy, who was already a media darling.

The media isn't a problem for Clark... the problems Clark will face will come from more and more dems looking past the hype and discovering, as I did, that he is a total fraud.

I was very excited about Clark, look back a few weeks. I bought intot he hype like a lot of people. I was hoping Clark would be Dean's VP, and I was even happy with the idea of a Clark/Dean ticket.

However when I looked beyond what the booster club and draft clark hype, and looked at CLarks real history, what I saw was a man who was a dyed in the wool republican war monger who has a proclivity for kissing the asses of those in power.

Now all of a sudden he says he is a dem and that's supposed to be good enough for us to vote for him as our nominee? Fat chance. THis guy is a fraud.

I will not vote for Clark, period. Not for the nomination and not for the presidency if he gets the nomination.


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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yeah, Bush won over the media in 2000, so why should I trust the media?
The media is conservative biased, so I'm not surprised they worship Clark the general.
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