What do you know about the Knights Templar ?

[kentuck]

I watched a movie a couple of nights ago, The Kingdom of Heaven, about the Crusades, and the Knights Templar were mentioned in the movie. Are they still around today in a different form? There were rumors that they became the Masonic Temple? Anybody know more?

[bryant69]

1. They are a popular conspiracy group

Like the Masons. They show up in a lot of conspiracy theories - in part because they came out of the crusades extremely wealthy. They had the Money, they had power, both military and religious. So they fit into a lot of conspiracy theories.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Finder]

2. There is a group called Knights Bridge...

Here is some info:

Knightsbridge International, dedicated to providing humanitarian assistance and disaster relief worldwide without regard to race, religion or national origin.

Sir Edward Artis, along with cofounder Dr Sir James Laws and Sir Walt
Ratterman are members of a SELF STYLED ORDER of the Knights of Malta and members of the OSMTH / Templar Knights (www.OSMTH.org). Knightsbridge International (www.kbi.org) is a very small California based humanitarian relief organization that provides millions of dollars worth of food, medicine and shelter to people in need in some of the most hard to get to and dangerous locations throughout the world. Afghanistan, Albania, Cambodia, Chechnya, Kosovo and the most recently the Southern Philippines are just a few of the locations where Knightsbridge has participated in significant relief efforts.


http://www.medical-missions.org/CMM%20Partnership.htm

[JAbuchan08]

3. They were a christian group who vowed their lives and swords

to the defense of christianity. They were motivated by the desire to make jerusalem safe for pilgrims. in spite of their vow of poverty they soon became VERY rich and powerful, but apparently phillip iv of France had it in for them and he eventually forced them to dissolve with accusation of heresy and homesexuality.

[lanlady]

4. fascinating group in history

Was founded during the First Crusade (I think--maybe the Second Crusade) to guard Christianity's assets in the Holy Land. (Templar= Guardian of the Temple in Jerusalem). Grew into a powerful organization that existed outside the hierarchy of the Church, and became very much involved in worldly ventures. They're credited among other things with "invention" of banking and check-writing. Later on, somehow became tangled up in popular imagination with secret societies like the Masons.

There are lots of great books on the KT but suggest you google 'em.

[JAbuchan08]

9. They were so trustworthy that noblemen who went on crusades

would drop their money off at Templar castles, oddly enough they charged intrests on their loans despite the fact that this was forbidden by church law.

[unpossibles]

5. I could tell you, but...

...then I'd have to give you a cushy government job.

Look up the Illuminati, The Scottish Rite Masons, and go from there. It's interesting stuff, although it's definitely all over the place.

:tinfoilhat:

[XNASA]

6. There's a good explanation in the book....

"Foucault's Pendulum" by Eco.

Basically, they were fighting monks. Oh, and of course, they control all the banks. :eyes:

[SteppingRazor]

7. The Masonic rumors...

Are ased on the fact that the Masons began only after the Templars went away (ahem. Several hundred years after), and that the Masons apparently began in Central Europe, where the last of the Templars finally fell.

The connection was unfortunately foisted upon gullible poeple outside the conspiracy-believing community by that Dan Brown book The DaVinci Code.

[Crayson]

10. Msasons vs. Templars

i don't think the Stone Masons were the Templars heritage.

The Stone Masons want to build a better world.
They are based on logic and knowledge and are kind of elite thinkers.
I think it was the start of the Age of Enlightenment

Templars were a christian order, you could say with a tendency of religious fanatism (as is inherent in any religous order).

For me this doesn't fit: logic vs. religion

[ozarkvet]

13. York Rite Masons

Are strictly Christian.

And all Masons must believe in God (and all their symbolism surrounds Judeo/Christian ethos).

[Finder]

24. There are many non Christian Masons...

Overall, they are deists mostly. Most of the Masons I have met have been Secular humanists.

[ozarkvet]

33. Scottish Rite, presumably

I suppose they are Scottish Rite, then.

But my father (who is a Mason --- yes, there are black masons) is a Bible-thumper extra-ordinaire, as are all those that I have met.

The entire symbolism of the Blue Lodge (the lower part of all Masonry) concerns the building of King's Solomon's Temple and alludes heavily on Christian teaching and symbolism, however.

For example, the white leather apron they all wear is the emblem of the lamb (i.e., Jesus) and is symbolic of being made pure by grace.

(Can you tell I've heard the whole sales presentation first hand a hundred times?!)

[Finder]

35. Apron--lamb---Jesus...

is only one interpretation. That is the beauty of masonic wisdom.

You are correct regarding Scottish Rite...

Most lodges are civic clubs today.

[unpossibles]

63. when I think "apron" and "lamb"

I think blood sacrifice, hence the Jesus connection.

I may be totally wrong, however, as I am one of those heathens who was not raised Christian, although I am fascinated with mythology in general.

I also understand that the Masons saw themselves as indirect descendants of the Templars, not literal.

I have often wondered if, much like alchemical process of transmuting something base into something worthwhile, the terms 'temple' and 'mason' do not refer to actual stone only, but are also symbolic of the process of self enlightenment, hence all of the kundalini/hermetic/Illuminati references. You know - the body is the temple kind of thing, and that the Masons kept secrets because they knew how to 'raise the roof' so to speak.

As far as the whole argument about people who are Masons who are not privy to much beyond the charity and/or the keggers, it would not make sense to let everyone in on the secret if there were a secret, would it?

Personally, I think it is now basically a networking club, even if at one time it had higher aspirations.

...or is it...?

[ozarkvet]

67. Blood Sacrifice

Is directly correct.

To oversimply greatly, in the days of the Temple, the Passover sacrifice was a literal coating with the innocent blood to wash away ones sins.

The lamb/Jesus is the same idea --- a gift, when accepted makes you pure, even when you are not. (Hence, the "Perfect Sacrifice" business.)

The masonic temples are generally, as near exact replicas of King Solomon's Temple, as they are able to make, for what it is worth.

Networking club? Maybe. From my dad's friends, they are past the networking phase of life and are now looking for an organization in which they can work to do good works --- e.g., Shriner's Hospitals, Scottish Rite Childrens' Hospitals, etc.

[KittyWampus]

51. Without question, the symbolism of Masonry has an Esoteric meaning

that goes far beyond the exoteric understanding.

Many Masons don't delve that deeply into the meanings of the symbolism and rituals.

Even fewer Christians seem to make an effort to really grasp what the Bible actually says and what the rituals are really doing.

But there are certainly more NOW then there was 200-100 of years ago.

[SteppingRazor]

17. The Masons are somewhat religious as well...

But that remote similarity doesn't mean the two are one in the same. I wholeheartedly agree that one organization has nothing to do with the other.

Except that both are just arms of the Illuminati, of course :eyes:

[Finder]

25. I disagree they are religious...

as do most churches who forbid their members to join.

[Shakespeare]

28. That doesn't mean they're not religious.

It means that most churches consider masonic beliefs and practices to be heretic.

[SteppingRazor]

32. Disagree all you want, but...

Here's what you have to do to be a freemason:

1. be a man who comes of his own free will
2. believe in a Supreme Being, or, in some jurisdictions, a Creative Principle (unless joining a jurisdiction with no religious requirement, as in the Continental tradition),
3. be at least the minimum age (18–25 years depending on the jurisdiction, but commonly 21),
4. be of sound mind, body and of good morals, and
5. be free (or "born free", i.e. not born a slave or bondsman),
6. have one or two references from current Masons (depending on jurisdiction).

Note No. 2. (source: www.masonicinfo.com, wikipedia.org)

[Finder]

37. No disagreement...as you see there is no religious requirement. n/t

Unless you feel belief in a supreme being or all creative principles are religious.

I would not consider those who hold a deistic philosophy religious.

[SteppingRazor]

39. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say...

There is a spiritual requirement. Certainly a literal religious requirement (i.e. that Masons be a member of such-and-such religion or religious organization) isn't part of the Masons.

[ozarkvet]

42. Have a petition for the Grand Lodge of Arkansas

right here --- given by dad, on one of his many recruiting drives.

It requires not only a belief in "God," but the "Divine Authenticity of Scripture."

[ozarkvet]

36. I believe it is only the RCC

That used to forbid members from joining the Masons.

There is currently some controversy on that subject --- at least in the US --- as the order only forbids joining groups that plan to overthrow the RCC, which the Masons do not do (presumably!?), so it is now not even completly clear that RCC forbids membership.

But other denominations are in the clear. Indeed, several of the ArchBishops of Caterbury, the founder of the Salvation Army, lots and lots of big-time Southern Baptist ministers (founder of Baylor in Texas comes to mind), and various other disparate members of Christian denominations are or were masons.

[JVS]

75. The LCMS along with WELS and ELS also forbid membership in the Masons.

That is, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod forbids it. And the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, along with their sister denomination the Evangelical Lutheran Synold also forbid it. There are also many fraternities/sororities and other social organizations that are forbidden to members because often groups like fraternities participate in prayer that is not directed specifically to the triune god (forbidden in LCMS and (W)ELS) or prayer done along with non WELS/ELS members (The WELS/ELS do not pray with non-WELS/ELS members)

Here is something from their Q&A
"Q. Could someone please explain briefly why Masons are not allowed in the Lutheran Church?

A. Bylaw 3.925 of the Synod's Handbook summarizes the rationale for the Synod's longstanding position on the lodges: "Pastors and laypeople must avoid membership or participation in any organization that in its objectives, ceremonies, or practices is inimical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the faith and life of the Christian church." It is because tenets and practices of Freemasonry conflict with the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ that our church from its very beginning has held that membership in this organization conflicts with a faithful confession of this Gospel.

Many examples from the official rites and ceremonies of Freemasonry could be cited to illustrate the reasons for the Synod's position, but the following is one example. The second section of the Entered Apprentice degree reviews what has taken place in the initiation rite and closes with this definition of the Lambskin of White Leathern Apron given to the candidate: "The Lamb has, in all ages, been deemed an emblem of innocence. He, therefore, who wears the Lambskin as the badge of a Freemason, is constantly reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." This statement holds out the promise that "purity of life and conduct" is "essentially necessary" for entry into life hereafter with the divine being called the "Supreme Architect." Such an assertion stands in direct conflict with the apostolic Gospel, and therefore endangers faith. St. Paul affirms in his epistle to the Galatians that "by works of the law shall no one be justified...for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:16,21)."
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2187

[ozarkvet]

90. Lambskin

I had the same discussion regarding the lamb skin with my dad.

The point was made that the lamb skin was an unearned gift representing the sacrifice of Jesus, and was merely given upon request and not earned through acts, and it was this unearned gift (i.e., grace) that granted justification. That would appear to not be a conflict.

Ironically, most of the modern attacks on Freemasons were originally propigated by the Nazi party in Germnay, who were deathly afraid of the Freemasons.

[MsTryska]

45. I would disagree.....

The Templars were the funding behind quite a few cathedrals and churches thoughout Europe.

If anything I would say they were the "lordly" wing of the Masons.

[newyawker99]

68. Hi Crayson!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AntiFascist]

82. Masons are also influenced by the Kaballa....

as well as ancient Egyptian beliefs, perhaps Celtic beliefs, and what is it with the mysterious Greek stuff?

[Finder]

18. Well they are not sinister...

and the philosophy of the Templars is alive and well in many Masonic temples.

The DaVinci code definitely fed the conspiracy crowd but there were many facts weaved into his fictional account. The link for the Templars is in my post above.

[Crayson]

8. Order fallen of grace

They were one of the Pope's favorite orders at the time.
A order that grew rich in the first crusades.

Not sure, but I think they originated or at least had their headquarters on the island of Malta in the Mediterrean Sea. (the Malta Cross is the same as the templar cross (also as the War Flag of the German army by the way).

The order grew all too powerful and one Pope decided to outlaw them by bringing up rumors about black rituals, human sacrifices, gays, sorcery, and generally damning them to hell.
They were hunted down and killed whereever they've been found.
I think it was the Jesuites who wanted more power and influenced the Pope against the one favored templars.

Most certainly they went underground and continued their work, whatever it consisted of, but that's more based on common sense than on knowledge.

My 2 pence...

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. They certainly went underground

This is Royston Cave, in England, about 30 feet below ground level - an artificial cavern, with various Templar carvings on the wall (and lots that might be earlier). It was rediscovered in the 18th century.



It wasn't the Jesuits - the Templars were banned in the early 14th century, and the Jesuits weren't founded for another 200 years.

[Bridget Burke]

88. A few errors in your post...

The Jesuits were founded in the 16th century, a couple of centuries after the Templars' downfall.

Malta was headquarters of the Knights of Malta--originally called the Hospitallers of Jerusalem. They are still in business & have an interesting history:

www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm

Here's the story of the Templars from the same site. For a Catholic encyclopedia, it's awfully sympathetic. The campaign against them was started by the King of France, then taken up by the (weak, French) Pope. The Templars were NOT all hunted down & killed--outside of France. (Final conclusion of the article: The Templars were probably NOT guilty as charged.)

www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

Here's another source for Templar history. Lots of details, few occult theories.

www.templarhistory.com/demolay2.html

Yet another site. You can see that everyone has an opinion:

www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/

[barb162]

11. That was an excellent movie. I thought the portrayal

of the Knights was pretty accurate for the time the movie took place. There were so many factions of Christians at the time in the mideast.

check this link out

http://historymedren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.templars.org.uk%2Fhistory.html

[ozarkvet]

12. FreeMasons

The Freemasons, in particular the York Rite Freemasons, are the direct institutional descendants of the Knights Templar.

Just a little history --- the freemasons were basically a union of masons. They got rich and could move around (hence, "free"), unlike other serfs. Their biggest customer was the RCC, which got into wage disputes with them. The union also funded a lot of the Crusades (the Templars, in particular, who folded back into the union later on).

This military strength and monetary wealth is, in no small part, why the Roman Catholic Church despises Freemasons, especially in Europe.

The recent Nicholas Cage movie "American Treasure" had a thumbnail Hollywoodized version of the history.

[monobrau]

29. "direct institutional descendants" - uh, no.

There is no connection to the masons except their having adopted the legend of the Knights Templar to use in the higher degrees. It's old men playing dress up.

[ozarkvet]

34. Opinions differ, I suppose

I certainly have no personal knowledge, just what they claim, which seems reasonable, especially the bit about the RCC not liking them for union-busting reasons --- classic economic class struggle fits Occams' (sp?) Razor.

[Carni]

41. So by masons (originally) do you mean like construction worker types?

Not being a smart ass...I actually don't know, but I do seem to recall that some of their symbols were of compasses or things of that sort? (I think?)

My Dad was a member of the Masonic temple when I was a kid
(I guess that would have made him a mason)

He wasn't particularily religious and his mason friends didn't seem all that religious either so that must depend on the particular lodge.

I was very young when he was active in the group and all I can remember is the silly outfits and ceremonies they would occasionally have where the families could attend. Plumed hats etc--frankly I found it embarrassing that my parent would dress in such fashion for ANY reason!

My father wouldn't have known the illuminati if they bit him in the ass...so if the organization he joined secretly ruled the world they must not have sent him the memo LOL

[ozarkvet]

43. Yeah, they were the contractors of yore

Architects, bricklayers, etc. were the original masons.

It makes more sense when you remember two things:

FIRST:

That serfs of Europe were bought and sold with the land. (What is it with you white people and buying people?! Sorry, another topic.)

"Free" Masons, in contrast, were "free" to travel from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, building castles, churches, etc.

Hence, the secret handshakes and whatnot. It's how illiterate craftsmen recognized the others.

SECOND:

A castle was the nuclear weapon of the middle ages. The secrets of building arches, raising thick wall, flying buttresses, etc. were State Secrets. You didn't just look this stuff up in a book.

Hence, all the security.

[Carni]

52. Thanks for the info

Now their symbols make sense

[Javaman]

54. You hit it right on the head...

The "mystery" behind the Masons was the fact that they knew the secret behind building arch's, aka the keystone. One of their main symbols.

It was a tightly guarded secret, akin to modern weapons technology being secret. This is what made them the "secret" society and thus a threat to the church. The church wanted to know everything and if someone was keeping a secret from them, they would not be in total control. So they began the disinformation campaign against the masons.

As far as the Knights Templer, whether or not they invented banking, they certainly took it to new and international levels. And because they began charging interest, they grew very wealthy. Owning property, funding huge projects and as a result had a lot of influence and once again the church didn't like the competition and thus began yet another disinformation campaign against them.

Most of the mystery behind these two groups was simple: they only dealt with like minded people and they controlled power and information. Both a huge threat to the church.

So all the secretness and mysterious crap surrounding both groups is just that, crap. High end members do enjoy a certain amount of power and influence, but tell me one high profile organization or club that it's senior members don't enjoy the same benefits?

the "mystery and secrets" just make for good stories and folk law to pass on to generation after generation. Believe me, if my dad was able to talk to aliens or move things with his mind, he would have told me on his deathbed. Yes, he was a mason.

[myrna minx]

14. They were warrior Knights who were sworn to chastity and poverty.

In the fictional book Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco they play a role in the conspiracy of the story.

Ultimately they became an extremely wealthy order. They were like a western union of sorts from Western Europe to the Holy Land. One could leave your riches with them in France and pick up your money in Turkey. King Phillip of France ordered the Grand Master Jacques de Molay and other Templars to be executed (to break up the extreme wealth and power that they amassed) for heresy. Most Templars recanted their "confessions" because they were given under the situation of torture. Jacques de Molay was burned at the stake and is said to have called out a curse for all of the order to avenge his death. Soon after the order was disbanded and went underground. Enter any popular conspiracy theory here....:-)

[proud patriot]

15. A topic that makes for great reading

A creative person can have a lot fun
researching and learning the tale .

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. I know that every lunatic to concoct a hare-brained theory places them

at the center of it.

A phenomenon well parodied in Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum, btw.

[swimboy]

20. Their vast treasure is hidden on Oak Island. Google it.

:tinfoilhat:

[myrna minx]

22. But but but Francis Bacon is buried there!

And Shakespeare! :tinfoilhat: ;-)

[Finder]

26. Bacon was Shakespeare...

as well as a few other Rosicrucians writing under that pseudonym...

[Shakespeare]

46. HAHAHAHAHAHA

No, he wasn't. Nor was the Earl of Oxford Shakespeare.

Shakespeare was Shakespeare.

[Finder]

56. Shakespeare and Jesus...

they have a lot in common.

[Shakespeare]

59. No, they don't.

We have recorded evidence of Shakespeare. Does it ever occur to anyone that nobody challenges whether Marlowe wrote all of his plays? Others-as-Shakespeare theories are the stuff of elitism and tinfoil. And you'd be laughed out of the room if you ever suggested that in a group of Shakespeare scholars (I've seen it happen at academic conferences).

[Finder]

60. Well that happens in church too if you question Jesus...

But the evidence does not hold up regarding Shakespeare as the actor/Bard. Did you ever see the inscription on the tomb supposedly where he is buried?

[Shakespeare]

62. You're joking, right?

Evidence most certainly does "hold up" regarding Shakespeare as Shakespeare.

I mean, really, you're joking, right?

http://shakespeareauthorship.com/

Anti-Stratfordians make the chemtrails folks look sane and reasonable.

[Finder]

64. Mark Twain is good company to be in...

All kidding aside...what makes you think it is a conspiracy theory? The cryptology involved is pretty much accepted.

[Shakespeare]

65. No, the cryptology has been completely refuted.

The link I supplied in my previous post details that. And as far as why it's a "conspiracy theory," it meets all the requirements (outlandish claims, fringe groups, etc.). Before you can prove that somebody else was Shakespeare, you first have to prove there was no way Shakespeare was Shakespeare. And you cannot do that, especially not without discounting the written record.

There is substantial evidence showing Shakespeare as Bard, but certain groups can't get their head around the idea that a country boy could've moved to London and 1. written the plays and poems, and 2. been a hugely successful businessman.

Here's a super-quick summary:

Shakespeare Authorship Argument

The traditional (Stratford) view; Shakespeare did write 37 plays and 154 sonnets.

Most academics agree that William Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare. Evidence for this comes from Parish records confirming his birth in 1564, records of his life in London in the 1600s, his name as a part shareholder of the Globe, his marriage certificate, his application to change his family’s coat of arms, and his recorded death in 1616.

Evidence for the Bard having written his plays comes from the First Folio of 1623. This book compiled 36 of William's plays, recording and publishing them for the first time. Its co-author John Hemminges was also a shareholder of the Globe and belonged to the same acting company (The Lord Chamberlain’s Men later named The King’s men) as did Shakespeare and so would have been privy to the true author.

John Hemminges and Henry Condell even remark of their late playwright that "His mind and hand went together and what he thought, he uttered with that easiness that we have scarce received from him a blot in his papers." They also prove he wrote the plays contained within the Folio, since the Folio contains a verse dedicated to the playwright's memory. This can be specifically read within the Folio.

Proof that the famous Bard was also a poet is equally clear; his first poem Venus and Adonis was published in 1592.

More circumstantial evidence comes from the fact that the famous playwright performed for Queen Elizabeth at her court (The Merry Wives of Windsor in 1596 and A Midsummer’s Night’s Dream in 1603) and James I watched many performances by the Bard, commending The King’s Men personally for their performances of The Merchant Of Venice in 1605.

Besides performing many of his own plays, the Bard is recorded as being an actor in Ben Jonson’s play Sejanus in 1603.

Criticisms by other playwrights also suggest he authored his work. Why else would Robert Greene in his 1592 pamphlet "Greene’s Groatsworth of Wit", criticize the famous Bard as an "upstart crow" who borrowed ideas for his plays from other playwrights if the playwright did not write his own plays?

Ben Jonson, his rival and friend, also criticized his work in Timber: or, Discoveries of 1640. Francis Meres criticized the Bard's work as "mellifluous" and honey tongued in his 1598 Palladis Tamia. Similarly Samuel Pepys ruthlessly described the 1595 "A Midsummer’s Night’s Dream" as "the most insipid, ridiculous play that I ever saw in my life."

Even Voltaire himself stepped into the ring, by saying "Shakespeare is a drunken savage with some imagination whose plays please only in London and Canada," before adding that "Shakespeare is the Corneille of London, but everywhere else he is a great fool".

Could Voltaire, Robert Greene, Samuel Pepys, Francis Meres and Ben Jonson have all suffered from a massive case of mistaken identity in the close-knit theatre world to which they largely belonged?

Similarly, we know the Bard at least wrote some of his plays because one of his later works, The Noble Kinsmen (1613), was recorded in the Stationer’s Registry in 1634 as being the work of both Shakespeare and noted dramatist John Fletcher.

http://absoluteshakespeare.com/trivia/authorship/authorship_shakespeare.htm

Edited to add: Stephen Greenblatt's excellent new biography, Will in the World goes even farther in establishing Shakespeare as Shakespeare.

P.S. As much as I love Twain, he was not a Shakespeare scholar, nor was he right about everything. The quote you reference is pointless.

[Finder]

72. I just love Twain's treatment of the subject...

In case you haven't read it.

http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/shake.html

I am not familiar with a few of the references you cite nor the book you mentioned. I will look them up later though. I find the whole thing fascinating and the cipher being debunked is news to me since it is very easy to verify...

I am open-minded and hope you are as well. I am sure I will find some of your cites to be inaccurate since the sources for both sides seem to not be beyond that. For the record, I am not advocating for DeVere.

[Shakespeare]

73. I have spent years studying Shakespeare.

It's what my MA is in, and I've read exhaustively on the authorship question. The Oxfordian and Baconian theories are interesting, but they just don't hold up. To me, it is the ulimate among urban legends, and I cringe every time I see it pop up in discussions where the general populace might take it seriously.

[Finder]

80. Well that is the whole idea...

to get the "general populace" intrigued. Everyone loves a mystery and the history and wisdom one can learn by trying to discern "the truth" is priceless.

That is the secret of the Templars,the Rosicrucians,Freemasonry and many others who understood and understand the value of history and the value of mysteries.

Now let's discuss Shakespeare's image on the First Folio.

;)

[swimboy]

40. And Bacon's vault is buried in Bruton Parish Churchyard in

Williamsburg, Virginia. These are very rich veins for mining theories.

[Enraged_Ape]

21. Our visual image of Satan comes from their persecution

It was said by their accusers that the Knights Templar were involved in all kinds of bizarre rituals, including awakening Kundalini by kissing each other's rear ends and worshipping the pagan horned god Baphomet. Until that time, the horned god had had nothing to do with Satan (who is not actually physically described in the Bible). Satan's been depicted as a dude with horns and a tail ever since.

[kentuck]

27. And that was the beginning of the pentagram as an evil symbol....

I believe?

[Enraged_Ape]

58. The pentagram actually used to be a GOOD symbol...

of protection. My wife, who is a good Bible-belt Christian, actually sings an old folk song that refers to the five-pointed "symbol on your door" that directly refers to the pentagram. This symbol was painted on people's doors to PROTECT them from evil, not to invoke it. The symbol bears a physical resemblance to both man (arms, legs, and head) and the crucified Christ--as the five points of the star are evocative of the five wounds that Jesus suffered on the cross.

You are right; this symbol was maligned and twisted to be some sort of "Satanic" thing with its association (real or not) with the Knights Templar. But like the horned God, its true origin is far apart from anything Satanic.

[Finder]

44. All that silly stuff is the result of...

vivid imaginations as well as some brilliant disinformation.

[Shakespeare]

47. I'm not sure that's true.

Our concept of what Satan "looks" like is shaped more by Milton's Paradise Lost than anything else.

[Enraged_Ape]

57. The legend of Satan as the "fallen angel" who defied the Lord...

comes right out of Milton, that's true. But the visual image of Satan as the horned dude with the tail comes right out of the trials and tribs of the Knights Templar. It didn't exist prior to them.

[MsTryska]

48. and let's not forget the bad luck of 13 and Friday the 13th, in

particular - the Templars really do have a rich involvement on our communal history don't they?

[TahitiNut]

23. Read Wikipedia ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

[gratuitous]

30. There are theories tying the Knights to the Masons

But basically they were a religious order during a religious time that got too big and too good for what it was doing. Someone mentioned Philip IV of France, and he was the one who settled their hash early in the 14th Century.

The Knights Templar began as a fighting order during the Crusades, but by the time of the 14th Century, they were more into commerce. They were a transnational group that could guarantee funds from one place to another, and in a time when communication was by word of mouth or sealed writing, they could accept funds in Paris on behalf of the French monarch, and by courier communicate to their knightly brothers in Rome or Jersualem to release funds to the monarch's retainers there. They had an elaborate system of signs and countersigns to effect good faith. When you give your credit card company your mother's maiden name, that's a holdover from the security measures instituted by the Knights Templar.

Of course, if the King of France deposited 1,000 ducats in Paris with the Knights, the Knights didn't work for free. Only 950 ducats might be made available for the King's retainers in Rome or Jerusalem. The Knights, a "charitable" order that observed a vow of personal (but not corporate) poverty, would take 50 ducats for themselves. As commerce spread over the west, with a need for security and protection of couriers, the Knights grew quite wealthy.

As such, they also held quite a large debt over the head of Philip IV of France, who waged several ruinous and expensive wars (sound familiar?). The Knights began to assert a certain authority based on this debt, which infringed on Philip's divine right of rule. In those days, that right was granted personally by the Almighty, and was taken quite seriously.

Philip hatched a plan whereby he would get rid of the Knights Templar, seize their treasury, and free himself from their control. If you remember General Order 66 from the last Star Wars movie, Philip likewise had a grand scheme to take out the Knights that he launched on Friday the 13th of October in 1307. The leader of the Templars, Jacques de Molay (you may be familiar with the Order of De Molay), was captured along with most of his closest associates. De Molay was tortured for several years, and finally executed in public view on an island in the Seine River in 1314. Philip died shortly afterwards, allegedly cursed by de Molay with his dying breath.

Naturally, not all the Knights were captured and accounted for, and Knights who had been in England escaped persecution altogether. This disappearance of the now outlaw organization gave rise to tales in later years of secret activity by the Knights, backing insurrections here, exerting influence over government reforms there.

Some of the speculation is quite interesting and romantic. Is any of it true? I have no idea.

[Burning Water]

31. One of the

degrees in one of the Masonic rites is called "Knights Templar", I believe. I don't know of any actual connection between the original crusading Templars and the Masons, but I am not an expert.

[alfredo]

38. The Knights Templar visited Ethiopia because of the

news that the Ark of the Covenant was there. Their influence shows in the stone churches of
Lalibela.their distinctive cross can be found in art work there.

http://www.selamta.net/lalibela.htm

[Nihil]

96. Thanks for the link to that site!

(Forgot to say it originally but there are some excellent pictures on it.)

[alfredo]

98. I regret that I never visted there

when I lived up north in the Eritrean province.

Look up Axum. that place is incredible too.

[noonwitch]

49. Good book on the subject "Dungeon, Fire and Sword"

By John Robertson or Robinson. I read it some time ago.

The Templars were a group of knights during the crusades who were entrusted to keep Jerusalum safe for pilgrims. They managed to accumulate a lot of wealth and power over the years, which pissed off popes and kings a great deal. The church managed to destroy them, with the help of the french government, but wild stories have circulated ever since. Many of the knights were tortured by the same methods used in the inquisition and the witch hunts. Subsequently, many knights made confessions to things like worshipping satan and desecrating holy relics, which helped the church and the temporal powers spread the lie that the Templars were serving satan.

[Jara sang]

50. During the Crusades there were three main religious military orders.

- The Knights Templar, todays freemasons.

- The Knights Hospitaller, or the Knights of Saint John of Jerusalem,(Knights of Malta) which are today the Sovereign Military Order of Malta

- Teutonic Knights, which had a rivival in Germany when Hitler tried to bring back that order in a new form.

[ozarkvet]

53. Curious

All Masonic lodges are dedicated to the "Holy Saints John."

[JVS]

74. I find it odd that people claim that the Templar knights became masons

I've not read that this indeed happened. In fact what I've read about masons says that the Catholic church has forbidden its members to become freemasons under threat of excommunication (I'm not sure if this holds to this day, but definitely a century ago) leads me to believe that these are not the same organization.

Also, the Teutonic knights (Deutscher Orden) still exists today in Germany and Austria.
http://www.deutscher-orden.de/
http://www.deutscher-orden.at/

[Jara sang]

76. It was my understanding...

that following the persecution of Knights Templar they merely went underground and became a charitable organization. There are however several theories on the origins of the freemasons. One of them holds that they were started from several masonic guilds during the Middle Ages. Another holds that their origins are in ancient Egypt with the building of the pyramids. The Freemasons own lore holds that their origins are intertwined with the Temple of Solomon(The story of Hiram Abiff). The Knights Templar have similar traditions and symbols in their lore.

[ozarkvet]

55. Most important point

Is what the modern Freemasons DO:

1. Shriners' Burn Hospital
2. Scottish Rite Chilresn's Hospital
3. Innumerous retirement homes

Etc.

They put REAL charity into action --- which is the most impressive part --- acting above and without politics.

My dad --- a black man --- for his faults (a Holy Roller extraordinaire) --- is a Mason --- freely inducted in ARKANSAS back in the days of segregation. One of the first and gladly accepted as a brother by white men (and vice versa, for that matter).

The Dallas Scottish Rite Hospital accepted my sister for a serious problem she had as a child. No charge. They never accept money.

Plus Hitler hated Freemasons with a passion, which is always high praise --- lined them up for death along with the Jews.

These are some good people.

I dusted off the petition my dad handed me to answer some questions in this thread and it got me thinking about them again.

I may finally break down and join.

[Bridget Burke]

89. Yes, judge them by their works.

And they do a lot of good. My grandmother was Eastern Star; I think my grandfather (whom I never met) was a Freemason.

I enjoy reading history/fiction/crackpottery about the Templars, Masons, Illuminati, etc. But I don't take all that stuff literally.

[rman]

92. There's much greater injustice in the world

then lack of hospitals and retirement homes in the West.

What works have they done wrt those greater injustices?

[ozarkvet]

93. You're right

We should all do nothing because there is no justice in the world.

We should sit in the corner and suck our thumbs, instead.

People have to start somewhere.

But to answer your question, Scottish Rite hospitals take children from around the world, including transportation for the families; they are, in no way, limited to the USA.

They are especially active in South/Central America.

[rman]

94. Don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

I did not say we should all do nothing.

[AzDar]

61. Kentuck, read "Holy Blood,Holy Grail"...an excellent book on the

subject,and one of my all-time faves!!

[TrogL]

69. The book is absolutely nonsense

It's based upon a hoax and claim that French scholars can't spell.

It's also riddled with logical fallacies.

[AzDar]

77. I politely disagree...whether or not there is a "hoax" involved

(presumably, the continuing bloodline of Jesus), the info contained within the book re: the Templars, is very well documented and researched.

On edit:..and we all KNOW that French scholars can't spell?!? LOL

[Halliburton]

66. it was in that stupid movie National Treasure

damn that movie was terrible.

[JVS]

70. Here

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

[Lautremont]

71. They are periodically resurrected in the form of blind,

horse-riding zombies. Check out the "Blind Dead" movie series (recently released on DVD!) if you don't believe me.

[jim3775]

78. You can purchase their silly ritual outfits from most...

fraternal supply stores.

[Born Free]

79. Masonic "Knights Templar"

Members of the York Rite are more of what you would call theoretical as opposed to practical, they have a preference to Christianity but not fighters like the warriors of old. One of the more famous Knights Templar was George Washington, our first president, as a matter of fact ; rumors are the indians that threw the tea overboard were seen leaving the Masonic lodge. Freemasons played a very important part in the early days of America. Thomas Jefferson and many of the original signers of the Declaration of Independence were masons and many of them were Knights Templars. George Washington was also the master of the masonic lodge, he was sworn in with the masonic bible from the that lodge. Yes, masons believe in a "Supreme Being" but do not force any particular religion, a man makes his own choice. Any mason in good standing can petition to join the York Rite: Chapter, Council and Commandery. Masons are not forced to become York Rite masons, many prefer to join Consistory and become a 32 degree mason as opposed to being Knights Templar, some , such as myself choose to do both. Some Masons do not join either, they are happy with the Blue Lodge, yet others prefer to become Shriners and or Tall Cedars. One is not better than another, just different. A poor mason is just as respected as a rich mason, as the character of a man is all that is important in Freemasonry. Freemasonry is about making good men, better men. This is not to say that some manage to get into the lodge that should not be, as no organization is perfect, but for the most part masons tend to be good men trying to be better men.

The key to becoming a mason is the man must ask, it must be his own free will to be a mason, knowing ahead of time the only thing he may get out of it is being a better man. He can not think it will bring him any financial gains or any material wealth, only help from fellow good men on how to be a little better husband, father, citizen. He can not sacrifice anything his family needs in order to become a mason, as his family must come first.

The secret to it all is there is no secret, but that doesn't stop people that know nothing from spreading their ideas and masons as a rule do not waste their time trying to convince anyone otherwise. It's all about being "free" to believe whatever you want. If you are sincerely interested ask a mason, that is the first step.

[Nihil]

81. Nice summary!

It's good to get a little light on the subject from someone who knows
rather than just repeating rumours.

Thank you.

[AntiFascist]

83. I'm sure the vast majority of masons are great people....

but how many know what it takes to be a 33rd degree mason?

Clearly sites like this one tend toward the conspiratorial:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/33rd.htm

but the 33rd degree does exist, does it not?

[AntiFascist]

84. ....and FreeRepublic is probably as good of a site as any

to learn about Lucifer:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/851843/posts

I'm just throwing this out there for your edification.

As a former Freemason, I am fully versed as to the origins of this heresy. It’s known as Luciferian doctrine,...

[Nihil]

85. If you actually want to know ...

... I really wouldn't bother with sites like that - they only parrot
the good old Albert Pike "Lucifer" quote:

"Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"

Three sentences (of which two are actually exclamations), taken from a book of 861 pages with a 216 page index. Sounds about right for the
"fair & balanced" witch-burning crowd.

Shame that this was a hoax

In 1897, Taxil publicly confessed to the hoax, just as he was being acclaimed all over Europe for his 'religious zeal'.

(See http://www.masonicinfo.com/taxil.htm)


Besides which ...

...
"The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell? The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer.""

"Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, "bringer, or bearer, of light."
...

(See http://www.masonicinfo.com/lucifer.htm for the rest)

And to answer your original 'question' about the 33rd degree:

...
The 33rd ("and last") Degree of the Scottish Rite is an honorary degree, conferred for exceptional service to Freemasonry.

(See http://www.masonicinfo.com/33rdsrule.htm for more)

[AntiFascist]

95. I've also read that ancient Masonry.....

incorporated ancient beliefs older than Judaism, including Celtic Sun worship, or Egyptian worship of the Sun god, all in a positive way, although I'm sure the religious right would argue otherwise since they tend to think in terms of absolutes.

But, there are still 32 degrees that one must transcend before the 33rd degree achievable by the few, and it is the rituals and knowledge that is part of this process that causes much of the speculation of what Masonry is all about. I'm surprised no one in this thread has mentioned this.

[Nihil]

97. So did Christianity :-)

Although, again, I suspect the "religious right" may try to dodge the truth!

With regard to "the 32 (33) degrees", as mentioned earlier, this is to
do with the Scottish Rite (an appendant body to "mainstream" masonry)
and not connected to the York Rite (another appendant body, leading to
the Masonic Templar degrees), the "Shriners" or any of the other
modern offshoots of freemasonry.

The majority of the rituals & lectures for the Scottish Rite degrees
are already available around the internet so there should be no need
for "speculation" for the genuinely interested.

FWIW for the purists, I'd just like to point out that I am not
currently (nor have I ever been) a freemason. I have read a lot about
the Templars and other traditions/belief systems/philosophies and so
have come into contact with various aspects of freemasonry over the
decades. In addition, through contact with a number of freemasons
(many of whom I like & admire), I have gained sufficient understanding
of their attitudes and actions to offset the anti-masonic bias that
is sadly prevalent in many places. I may choose to get more involved
with them in the future but in the meantime, I am just an independent
commentator. If you want a good starting point on the net, check out
the site mentioned in my previous post but if you want to learn more
than that, contact your local lodge - they will usually be helpful.

[Nihil]

87. Delete

(Losing track of the posts in this thread ... sorry!)

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. So, when you say you are a "Knight Templar"

are you saying that there was a continuous organisation from the original Knights Templar all the way down to what you belong to today, or did your organisation revive the name because you thought them admirable? If the former - are the records of this public? If the latter - when did the revival take place?

[ozarkvet]

91. Great Article about Founding of USA

By Freemasons.

It appears Paul Revere was a Freemason, and those "Indians" who had a little teaparty in Boston were a members of a Freemason Lodge.

Fascinating.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1679734,00.html