I'm 54, I seem to remember a time when the Death Penalty was a RW

[G_j]

position and liberals were against it (in general). I even remember when there was no DP. Am I right that it was once RWingers who were pro death penalty or am I imagining this?

[waiting for hope]

1. No....

I have always found it odd that the RWingers were against abortion but for the death penalty - go figure, try to save something that hasn't even happened yet then actually work within society to help those in trouble or in need....

[Walt Starr]

2. You're imagning it for the most part.

Liberals don't have to be anti-DP or anti-gun to be Liberal. I take the tests and always show up as an extremely Liberal Libertarian. I am pro-DP and pro-gun ownership.

[pilgrimm]

3. I think you are an exception

[CatWoman]

10. *snicker*

he kinda have you there, Walt "Fry his Ass" Starr :D

[Walt Starr]

17. I'v never used those words

but I'll tell you this, I was anti-DP all the way up to the execution of Ted Bundy. When I saw people pleading for his life, that's when I changed positions on the issue.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. Is that when you discovered, much like....

...Herr Busch, that you liked watching people plead for their own life, or the lives of others?

Well, to each his own.

[Walt Starr]

25. That was a pretty despicable personal attack

but that's your problem, not mine.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. "Personal attack"?? Just asking a question...looks like I hit a nerve....

...and that means YOU have the problem, not me.

[zanne]

95. You thought that was a "despicable attack"?

What do you expect on a liberal forum when you advocate for guns and the death penalty? You really can't believe you're in the majority.

[LincolnMcGrath]

42. That doesn't sound like the evolution you spoke of yesterday....

[Walt Starr]

43. It took a while to get there

Bundy and seeing the people begging for his life to be spared was the endpoint.

[LincolnMcGrath]

44. "I was anti-DP all the way up to the execution of Ted Bundy"

"It took a while to get there"


Which is it?

[Walt Starr]

87. Both

If asked, all the way up to Ted Bundy, I answered that I was opposed to the Death Penalty, even though my opinion was changing.

[LincolnMcGrath]

93. "Twenty years ago, I was more anti-DP than anybody

I've seen on this thread"

:shrug:

[Walt Starr]

109. Yep

I sure was.

20 years ago was December 1985.

Bundy was executed January 24, 1989.

[leesa]

63. How did executing Ted Bundy solve anything?

Was it worth all the errors made executing those who were innocent?

[stepnw1f]

100. Actually His Was Worth More to Investigators Alive

After being arrested, he actually gave the FBI more info and insight into the mind of a serial killer. What a waste he is now that he's dead.

[DefenseLawyer]

8. Not picking a fight

Just curious, are you pro death penalty because you think it deters crime or because it is just retribution for having killed or for some other reason? Are you at all concerned with how it is applied or with the potential for condemning the wrong person for a crime?

[Walt Starr]

14. Here's where I sit

I believe there are some crimes that are so heinous the only way to achieve justice is by removing the perrpetrator completely from all levels and forms of human society forever. The only way to do that is by applying the DP.

I am concerned about how the DP is applied and the inequality of that application. I'm glad Illinois struck a moratorium to give all death row inmates an opportunity to utilize DNA testing to insure that innocents are not executed.

I could be convinced to return to a stance whereby I do not support the DP, but can never be convinced when criminals the likes of Stanley "Tookie" Williams are used as the poster children of the anti-DP movement.

[Inland]

39. Certainly some crimes are so heinous

but the criminal justice system is so shitty on actually determining who deserves capital crimes, I'll do without it. For every Ted Bundy there's an entire state of Illinois. I just think capital punishment is different in that almost all cases consist of looking at a guy and trying to figure out if he's worth the air he breathes, a necessarily vague inquiry that ends up settling on race and wealth and whether the con has a good lawyer.

[Walt Starr]

41. Probably every person in Ilinois sitting on Death Row

belongs there. I don't know for certain because I haven't reviewed the cases, but they are being reviewed and the moratorium will not go on forever.

[CatWoman]

46. you can be so insensitive and naive at times

Probably every person in Ilinois sitting on Death Row belongs there.

[LincolnMcGrath]

48. They were completely innocent.

Ultimately, 13 inmates who had been sentenced to death were exonerated, and Ryan declared a moratorium on executions in the state.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. IMHO, Ryan did the right thing on that issue. Too many questions.

[Walt Starr]

85. Yes, probably, only because the cases are currently under review

the most likely outcome is every case will end up with the death penalty administered because they are guilty.

Why the hell do you think the moratorium went into place? One guy was found to be wrongly convicted and so every case was ordered reviewed.

[Inland]

62. Same system that went fifty fifty is reviewing the cases again.

There wasn't anything wrong on the face of the Illinois system, yet fifty percent of the death row inmates were actually innocent. Not freed on a technicality. Released as actually innocent. And thanks to the efforts of journalism students, mostly.

But what happens to those guys convicted in courts out of travel range of Northwestern? Like the cons in Texas? The state buries any mistakes.

So even if the system worked well enough to convict actually guilty people for capital crimes, how can it accurately judge the more subtle matter of who lives and who should die?

I think that capital cases are so emotionally charged, and the issue of the death penalty so wrapped up in subjective appraisals, it can't be fixed with some tweaks to the system. I'd do without it, because if one can't say for certain that the system is producing justice at least regularly, there's no reason for it.

[Walt Starr]

86. Cite a source for your "fifty fifty" figure

Because only one guy was released as innocent.

[Inland]

102. "On January 31st, 2000, following the release of the thirteenth wrongfully

convicted man from Illinois’ Death Row, and a series of articles detailing problems with the administration of the death penalty in Illinois, Illinois Governor George Ryan declared a moratorium ...."
http://www.icadp.org/page15.html

[sojourner]

79. you know that "probably" you speak of? it's a mighty BIG if...

when it's a (quite possibly) innocent life at stake. I won't argue that a good many of those on death row did something to earn them their place...but the criminal justice system IS rife with error and it MUST be so in a system that does not seek truth, but seeks the more persuasive argument (or evidence).

but, since you decided long ago to let the ugly sight of people begging to spare the life of another sway you to harden your heart, I don't suppose the life of an innocent or two is going to change your mind.

[Walt Starr]

84. No, it's not

I use "probably" only because the cases are currently under review by order of governor George Ryan.

[Don Claybrook]

53. you say you could be convinced to go anti-DP again

Maybe this would help: don't make it about the condemned, who are often some of the worst people in society. And don't make it about death penalty opponents, who may argue for a condemned person that you despise. Think, instead, about what kind of society you want to live in.

I'll sometimes read about the murder of a child, or some particularly heinous slaying. And I'll think to myself that I wish I could kill the pig with my own hands. But I'm glad that I live in a society that doesn't allow me to do that. I'm glad that I live in a society where justice is stripped of much of the emotion (at least theoretically speaking--I realize we're slipping away from this ideal). I'm glad to live in a society where a grieving, enraged parent of a murder victim is sagely kept away from the defendant. Of course that parent wants to exact revenge on the person that killed their child--that's only natural. But that's one of the reasons we have a judicial system.

So for me, it's not about the criminal, nor is it about the advocates of the repeal of the death penalty. It's about my hope of being able to identify with and belong to a society that doesn't counter barbarism with more barbarism. We can take these people out of society and make them go away forever without resorting to killing them. And I still wouldn't have to waste a minute of my time feeling any sympathy for some thug killer (not to be confused with those wrongly convicted, which I'm convinced happens more than we're aware of). It's got much more to do with how I feel about myself.

Thanks.

[sojourner]

82. thanks! this is what also drives me. like you, i think about and sometimes

want revenge exacted. but i want to live in a world where justice has something to do with truth...and where life is valued above all.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

91. Very, very nicely put.

And my sentiments exactly.

[Thorandmjolnir]

103. Thank you

:applause:

[leesa]

64. That's not justice, that's just vengeance, nothing more.

[skipos]

71. How about this guy as a poster child for the anti DP movement?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5550911&mesg_id=5550911

Walt, I am blown away by the number of people who have been incarcerated for decades only to be exonerated by DNA evidence. What about people who aren't "lucky" enough to have DNA available to test after so many decades?

You know that we regularly convict innocent people. So if you had to make a guess, of the 1000 people who have been executed, how many where innocent? I'd like to know your answer.

[Walt Starr]

110. That guy didn't face the DP n/t

[skipos]

111. Could you answer my question please? nt

[zanne]

94. That's another thing...guns.

Liberals used to be very anti-gun. Coming from where I come from in the 70's, I see most liberals nowadays as "Liberal Lite".

[Faygo Kid]

4. I am 54. These Right Wingers are not the same as now.

You remember correctly, my friend, on JL's 25th tragic anniversary. There once was a Right Wing, and a Left Wing. Always recognizing that they were within the American experience. That is no longer true. They have rejected the common experiences that bind us. There is now a radical cabal that seeks to destroy the American Experience. And I am 54, and never felt this way before, and my birthday is September 1951. And when is yours, my fellow Truman baby? And with all the Christmas lights, and the Chipmunks, and parents and aunts and uncles that are now gone, please accept this tree, and let's go in 2006.

[G_j]

9. smile

Oct. 51

Yes, I have that creepy feeling too!
Strange days indeed.
I went to Central Park aften John died for the memorial gathering and the five minutes of silence. I have never experienced thousands of grown folks weeping, hearts torn open. To this day that vivid experience lives within me and can make me cry.
We have lost quite a bit friend, but you know we are tough.
All we need is Love :hug:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. February 1951. I've never seen anything in America like this......

...and the Radical Right was always lurking back in the shadows, maneuvering for more power. IMHO, I knew they had to have had a hand in:

**trying to regain Cuba from Castro,
**the assassination of JFK,
**the escalation of Vietnam,
**the killings of RFK and MLK, Jr., and...
**the election of Richard Nixon.

And now we've seen the December 2000 Coup of the NeoCon Junta which installed a fascist government in the land of the free and home of the brave.

And we've seen the terrible events of 911, and have asked ourselves a million questions as to why so many things about that event just doesn't seem right.

We've seen the deliberate outing of an undercover intelligence operative, and the compromise of her entire WMD-tracking global network.

And we've seen the maneuvering that led up to the illegal and immoral invasion of another sovereign nation.

And we've seen the strongest economy the world has ever seen reduced to a whimpering shadow.

And it's not over yet. And the radical rightwing has ALWAYS been there...but not so arrogantly obvious as they've been since December 13, 2000.

[G_j]

52. here is something that I have often thought about

much of the momentum of the RW has been a direct reaction to the spiritual power we exerted in the 60s. We began to change the face of America and the world in a big way. They were very much threatened and began to fight back with all their violence, power and hate.

Since our values did not include violence, power or hate we have been at a disadvantage in this particular game.


just a thought

[EFerrari]

68. Might rethink "power"? There was "Black Power" "Power to the

People" -- lots of assertions of power, even if only over a small sphere. There were many of them. A variegated revolution. :)

That scared the cR@p! out of the corporate class.

[G_j]

69. I was thinking more in terms

of political power, or the power that the "power-brokers" wield.

"People power" is what we were manifesting. And yes, they were scared of what might happen if it had been maintained and focused. It is easy to see why they worked so hard to destroy groups like the Black Panthers and the anti-war movement from within and without.

[The Gunslinger]

5. It's just the times

It seems to me that theese days the right wing is waaaaay right, and the left wing is to the left of that, but still almost on the right.

[goclark]

13. On the DP issue it appears from reading the threads

that 2/3 of the left wing is to the FAR RIGHT of Charlton Heston and the Neo Cons.

I was surprised and disappointed.

I was asking myself is this the 21st Century or are we still the Cowboys making sure we are in control of the Indians.

It's all about power I guess.

[Wind Dancer]

22. It's been a shocker for me too reading the threads.

Revenge is a powerful opiate for many people.

Life in prison just doesn't satisfy the bloodthirsty majority.

Sad to watch this country regress so rapidly.

[Caoimhe]

6. I consider it the same

As a recovering Baptist.. I grew up KNOWING 100% that capital punishment was RIGHT and NECESSARY for a civilized society. Nevermind all those stupid European Countries that DO NOT have it and yet seem to have far less crime.

I think it's more about letting that *vengeance* tendon that strings our brain to our heart. Once you realize that

a. if you are Xtian... VENGEANCE IS MINE SAYETH THE LORD

b. if you aren't... the death penalty is NO DETERRENT.

you are able to accept the fact that not only is it possible for cops to be crooked and frame people that later die on death row (see Ruben Cantu) while actually innocent... but that as a collective force we must admit that death is actually the easy way out and if guilty, life in prison, remembering the crime is far worse.

[sojourner]

7. without a doubt the so-called left has moved to the right...

and the right leaned WAYYYYY right (or something). cuz it WAS the right who favored DP, and were in the main pro "punishment" of any sort. and the left was truly compassionate. but that's all out of whack now. people on the left cheer cops who kill innocent people who they suspected of being dangerous. was a time that we would not have tolerated that. just wouldn't have.

i blame it on education(lack thereof).

oh yeah...and i'm 53.

[G_j]

18. thank you

you know I was just reflecting and I was wondering if I was remembering correctly. I really don't recall any of my friends/peers being pro DP.
Perhaps this is why some of our generation gets so bent out of shape over issues like this. It is disheartening to see our core 'values' so compromised.

[G_j]

19. dupe

==

[Selatius]

11. What would Jesus do? Forgiveness and atonement? Or death? n/t

What would Gandhi or Buddha have done?

[sojourner]

80. there was a time in this world when those names meant something...

but as you can see all too often, here and elsewhere, a different mindset has taken hold -- one that calls these wise men "weak" and "misguided"

[EFerrari]

12. I'm nearly fifty and have the same recollection.

Something really wacky, like two wrongs don't make a right and so on.

My whole tribe (but me) are Democrats. Not a pro-death penalty one among them.

[G_j]

37. License To Kill

Man thinks 'cause he rules the earth he can do with it as he please
And if things don't change soon, he will.
Oh, man has invented his doom,
First step was touching the moon.

Now, there's a woman on my block,
She just sit there as the night grows still.
She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

Now, they take him and they teach him and they groom him for life
And they set him on a path where he's bound to get ill,
Then they bury him with stars,
Sell his body like they do used cars.

Now, there's a woman on my block,
She just sit there facin' the hill.
She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

Now, he's hell-bent for destruction, he's afraid and confused,
And his brain has been mismanaged with great skill.
All he believes are his eyes
And his eyes, they just tell him lies.

But there's a woman on my block,
Sitting there in a cold chill.
She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

Ya may be a noisemaker, spirit maker,
Heartbreaker, backbreaker,
Leave no stone unturned.
May be an actor in a plot,
That might be all that you got
'Til your error you clearly learn.

Now he worships at an altar of a stagnant pool
And when he sees his reflection, he's fulfilled.
Oh, man is opposed to fair play,
He wants it all and he wants it his way.

Now, there's a woman on my block,
She just sit there as the night grows still.
She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

-Bob Dylan

[Sapphire Blue]

15. That's what I used to think... that it was a RW position.

Until recently. I have observed otherwise. Sad.

[H2O Man]

16. You are correct.

It is simply part of the break-down of values in our culture. Anger, revenge, and hatred are not democratic values. They are not symptoms of stable minds or good hearts.

[G_j]

21. then I'm not crazy!

sigh..

[H2O Man]

24. No. You are not.

It's sad but almost funny to read some of the stupid things people say in favor of the death penalty. I am reminded that one of the types of lives Hitler considered "not worth living" were stupid people. A few of our friends should be more careful about advocating that the government take lives they feel are not worth living.

[G_j]

26. and you remember of course the time when there was no DP

it doesn't seem to me our culture is less violent or more free of crime now.

[H2O Man]

34. Correct.

One of the things that I think is important for people to keep in mind is that we are in a very violent time. Young people are often attracted to a violent "thug" life. Obviously, Mr. Williams played a role in that at one time, and that is something that is serious.

For decades, I was a social worker. I dealt with family violence. Violent parents, violent kids, and also young adults who victimize the larger sociey with violence. At different times, I worked with different populations, including "at risk" kids, and also some violent young thugs. Part of my job was to try to weed out, as best I could, those who might be turned around or redeemed, as opposed to those who were likely to present a high risk to society outside of jail.

There are children and youth who respond to individual counselors or therapists; some who do well in certain more highly structured programs and settings; and there are also those who respond almost exclusively to "convicts" who have turned their lives around. As you know, I'm friends with Rubin Carter; when he was the head of the Rahway Inmates' Council in the early 1970s, Rubin and Tommy "the Rabbi" Trantino organized a group of inmates to work with "at risk" kids from the outside. There were two tv programs about this -- "Scared Straight" and "You Are Your Brother's Keeper." The program didn't "save" everyone. But ....

How do you measure? If a kid has ten problems, and that helped him with two, is it a success? Or a failure? If being "scared straight" helps an "at risk" kid behave for 9 months, is it a success? A failure because he needs another dose?

Some people really believe that these kids will "learn" more if Williams is killed. Their error is in assuming that everyone thinks just like them -- exactly what Bush thinks about Iraqis, by the way. But people don't. Life is not that simple.

I do not think Williams is innocent. I do not think he is nice, or a good guy. But I know he is a resource for working with a certain segment of kids. And I know what message killing him will send to them.

[G_j]

47. my partner has worked for 3 & 1/2 yrs. in a youth lock-down

facility. She is a "lead". It has been difficult and frightening. She expresses many of the questions you mention concerning who is being helped or not.
It seems to her the kids they are getting are more violent and confused.
Also there are less places that will attempt rehap and they come there from all over the state. Much of society wants to just lock these kids out of sight and mind.

We do live in very violent times.
One reason I despise Bush and his ilk so is that he has posted a huge green light for violence and all our children see this.
we have great challenges ahead of us!

[H2O Man]

50. Sure ....

Bush has made clear that if you are angry and frustrated, using violence is the way to deal with your problems. And lie about it at every opportunity.

My wife used to work in a youth facility for females in CA. She worked with very violent young women. There is a clear trend in a lack of respect for human life .... though it is not just the "criminals," as some of the responses on this thread shows.

[goclark]

28. That's it H20Man! Democrats are about Democratic

values.

Anger, revenge and hatred symbolize all that we say are Republican values.

Maybe we have lost our hearts and are just so angry because we have been treated like dirt for two elections.

I refuse to let my beautiful mind be taken over by Charlton Heston and the Neo Cons. :)

We need to keep our eye on the prize, not on Frying Tookie or anyone else.

If we want to Fry something, make it DIEBOLD.

The prize is on ending the violence in Iraq, not allowing Bush and the Neo Cons to study War anymore and winning in 2006.

PEACE

[H2O Man]

55. I agree ....

I'm not concerned that some democrats arein favor of capital punishment. I think that it is fine to have people with a wide variety of opinions on important topics. I am offended by people who are clearly taking delight in the thouht of a person being executed. I do associate that type of twisted thinking with folks like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter.

[Ladyhawk]

70. "I am offended by people who are clearly taking delight in the

thought of a person being executed."

Me too. And I'm still thinking out my position on the Death Penalty. People who are celebrating Tookie's impending death remind me too much of RWers I know. It rather hurt me to hear my brother's stories of working on Death Row and tormenting the inmates. He would be happy to drag them "kicking and screaming" to the gas chamber, he said. My brother is quite willing to extend death to Arabs and others that aren't quite human according to him. I remember his saying so once, years ago. Since he supports * and the war I doubt his views have changed.

[goclark]

105. We are on the same page ~ it is the delight

in the thought of a person getting executed that gets to me.

[Neil Lisst]

20. The death penalty is repugnant to civilization.

It doesn't matter what the perp did. Put him away forever, give him 30 minutes a day outside, but killing him diminishes us, not him.

[Lexingtonian]

27. yep

There's a long term record of dp polling at Pollingreport.com. There was a period of rapidly increasing support for it from the mid-Sixties to the mid-Eighties, peaking at slightly over 80% in the mid Eighties. That translates to just about every American adult outside hardline liberals saying they support the dp at the time, i.e. all moderates were pro-dp.

Since then dp support has ticked down at a rate of roughly 1% a year. It's now 64-65%. In a couple of years we can expect to see the effort to abolish it entirely spring up again and the Democratic Party increasingly getting pressured to champion abolition. Between 2015 and 2025 we should be seeing states abolishing the dp.

[G_j]

29. excellent

Thanks for nailing this down. That is just what I was hoping somebody could help me out with.
mmm, the eighties: Reagan, Rambo, Cocaine...

[noiretextatique]

107. it's not a coincidence, btw

that some who voted for reagan post here (and probably bush too).
i'm 47, lifelong progressive, and i have no plans to go over to the dark side on any issue.

[goclark]

32. Please let it be done with ~ I feel like I am watching an old

old, old chapter in American History.

Something like the Civil Rights struggle with the dogs and the hoses.

We should be better than Bull
Connor.

[Lexingtonian]

54. same here

There's a little progress being made, though. A bunch of states are carving down their death penalties in various ways, barring it for more common crimes and letting juries give life without parole and such. Juries are rapidly backing away from dps; iirc from articles recently, in 2004 the number of dp sentences given was down to 40% of those given in 1999.

[goclark]

56. Thank you , maybe there is a silver lining

Do you have a link for that information.

I was beginning to think there was no hope to keep alive.

[Lexingtonian]

72. sorry, didn't find the latest

There was a flurry of articles when the 1,000th execution since relegalization in 1977 happened a week or two ago. I can't trace down the specific source of the 60% claim, unfortunately, among all the clutter online. But there are plenty of activist websites with a lot of numbers.

This is about a year old and has most of the current picture-

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/DPICyer04.pdf

Trends/declines have continued. Roper v Simmons ended in 5-4 verdict this past February or March (to much Right wing screaming and sobbing, btw) barring the dp for juveniles under 18.

[Czolgosz]

31. There was a ten-year moratorium on executions that ended January 17, 1977

It used to be that we had a court system that focused not only on the heinous acts of the murders but also on the heinous acts proposed by the state; a court system that asked what capital punishment said about the executioners and not just what it said about the accused.

Now, we have many people whose idea of justice is not based on facts or logic but based on their "instinctive" understanding that an eye-for-an eye is justice no matter how many of the wrongly accused are killed by the state, no matter how badly the race and gender of the victim and of the accused bias the outcome. We have too many people who see a debate about capital punishment in the same terms as they see a debate about whether the White Sox or the Cubs are Chicago's team; there is no fact or reason to sway them because their views are not based on facts or reason.

You remember a happier time, my friend.

[tritsofme]

33. IIRC Mike Dukakis has been our only recent nominee to oppose the death

penalty, and it was definitely to his detriment.

[goclark]

36. So does that mean in order to win we should be for the DP?

If that is so, than I'll sit the next election out.

I am tired of selling my soul to the devil.

[tritsofme]

38. I was only speaking to the fact

that I'm about the same age as the OP, and its never been my experience to see the Democratic Party as the "anti-DP" party, or that opposition to the DP was something that most Democrats agreed on.

[goclark]

40. Thanks for the clarification

I really wasn't pointing any fingers at you, not at all. :)

[sandnsea]

75. Kerry opposed the death penalty

The only reason he supported it after 9/11 was because he considered the attack an act of war which put the terrorists in a different category than they had been previously. And that there would not be the extradition problem that there had been with terrorists before.

[tritsofme]

78. I had forgotten that

But I'm sure you noticed he sure didn't try to make that a centerpiece of his campaign.

Franly, I'm surprised the Bush goons didn't go after him more aggressively on that issue.

[goclark]

104. That makes me feel so much better

He always seemed like a man of compassion.

I seem to remember that he was opposed now that you mention it.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

35. I don't know

Most liberals who are considered "left wing" have always been against the death penalty but I wouldn't say it was ever an exclusively right wing stance. I think public opinion polls have always shown that a large majority (something like 2/3) of the population believe in the death penalty. Personally, I'm against it and think that state sponsored execution is heinous.

[EFerrari]

51. One of the more disturbing facets to state murders has become

the media sponsored spectacle of the aggrieved family's pleasure, yes, pleasure in the execution.

The unasked question, "Was that good for you?"

[G_j]

57. I agree

every time I see this I feel like I am being punched in the stomach.
It literally makes me ill and so very, very sad.
The media just feeds this stuff. It is sickening!

[Evergreen Emerald]

60. I know what you mean

When I think of the victims I feel like I am being punched in the stomach. What they went through and what the families will go through for the rest of their lives makes me ill and so very very sad.

[EFerrari]

66. And it is telling that we seem to feel that we have to take a "side".

[Evergreen Emerald]

92. That is true...

....and I am not sure that we do have to take a side. I have such compassion for victims of violent crimes. They are forever profoundly affected by the act in every aspect of their lives--aspects you could not even imagine.

When a person is sent to prison for life--or dp, I am sad. I am sad that a life has been wasted. So, I mourn the loss for humanity. The person who committed such a horrific act--I can muster no pity.

The DP: I do not trust the current administration. I believe that Ashcroft was such an evil leader that I would not trust him to make decisions about life or death. (He may kill me off if he had the power of determining who could live or die--I think his song sucked and he is a radical loon). My beliefs about the death penalty fluctuate and evolve. And right now I see both sides of the issue.

I do not think the DP is about revenge. It is about justice. So, should the DP be an option for Justice? When / how / why. Tough questions--especially when the result of the actions to the vicitms and their families is so all-encompassing and life-long.

[KoKo]

58. But G_J....Remember 9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING!

Now we must ALL be for the Death Penalty, Torture, Violence agains our Enemies..."who hate us for our freedoms." :shrug:

[EFerrari]

65. It's so creepy that these hateful, hate-filled people are constantly

assigning hatred to the Other -- and, eliciting that hate whenever possible.

[sandnsea]

77. It was like this before 9/11

9/11 has nothing to do with the increased bloodlust for the death penalty that has been overtaking this country. All those 150 executions in Texas happened before 9/11. It's more than 9/11 that has turned this country into a bloodthirsty mob.

[sojourner]

81. you are right about that...the pendulum had swung already quite

far...that's what Clinton was about, wasn't it? "centrism" -- swinging to the right to meet "half-way"? but 9/11 pulled all the stops. suddenly people felt justified in their blood lust. and george bush and co legitimized that with their message, and the media drummed up the hysteria so that many of them couldn't even think for the blind emotion driving them.

scariest thing I've ever seen. and it ain't over.

[Endangered Specie]

59. Since when is it required that we all agree on all issues?

bet good money there are positions you take that are not on the "liberal checklist".


there are quite a number of pro DP, prolife, and progun liberals/democrats

(Im only 2 out of 3 of those btw)

[G_j]

61. nothing is required

I am just trying to get a grasp on a trend that I thought I perceived happening in my short lifetime.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

67. The death penalty teaches us that minorities shouldn't kill whites.

Great deterrant.

[sojourner]

83. actually it teaches us that minorities shouldn't kill -- bc too often

their victims are also minorities. but the righteous DO get extra excited about the death of a white person at the hands of a minority person. rich famous (white) people who do heinous acts will never face the dp. that in itself is enough to convince me of its injustice.

[noiretextatique]

108. it actually teaches us that racism is alive and well in the

american JUSTUS system as a mountain of evidence indicates, and most americans are just peachy with that :shrug:

[Solly Mack]

73. I'm 42 (soon) and you're not crazy

I grew up in a very Liberal environment and the DP was just not something that was supported.
Conservatives of all stripes supported it , but Liberals did not - and I'll go so far as to say Liberals still don't. I'm not yielding the word Liberal, or what it really means, to anyone just because the center shifted right. Not gonna happen.

[incapsulated]

74. You're not crazy

I remember when there was no death penatly and when this country started to become more and more rightwing and violent.

About the time Raygun was elected.

[MrSlayer]

76. I've always maintained that it is one of my conservative positions.

On most things I am firmly liberal and on all the tests I usually come out as a socialist. I live with myself just fine.

[LWolf]

88. I don't really remember.

You've got an extra 9 years on me; born in 1960, I didn't grow up knowing there were such things as liberals and conservatives. There were people who spoke and demonstrated for things like peace, freedom, equality, and justice, and there were angry, sour-looking vicious people on "the other side" who took some sort of satisfaction in bullying. I never really thought about the death penalty growing up; it wasn't a conversation piece. The only time I remember hearing it mentioned is in relation to Sirhan Sirhan.

By the time I was an adult, and had formulated an opposition to the death penalty, I didn't really fit politically anywhere; I wasn't part of any party, and didn't think about it in those terms.

[ToeBot]

89. You're not imaging it, and there was a time not so long ago...

on this board, when anyone advocating the death penalty so ardently would be overwhelmed by negative feedback. It was a minority opinion and a minuscule minority at that. It's disconcerting to see the change, but worse, it's disheartening. Sometimes I hardly recognize the place.

[Vinca]

90. It's a bizarro world.

There was a time Republicans were considered fiscally responsible.

[meganmonkey]

96. As a 31 year old, I thought the same thing

My mind reels at all the people here who are pro-death penalty. I am glad the Tookie case is bringing the issue up, regardless of whether or not he is especially deserving of clemency, because I believe ALL people on death row should be given clemency, and the death penalty abolished.

It's uncivilized*, inconsistent and unfair, and it doesn't reduce crime. It may temporarily satisfy the eye-for-an-eye-revenge-instinct of the victims' families, but in the long run even that doesn't last, IMO.

(*I don't really like that word but y'all know what I mean)

[G_j]

98. "temporarily satisfy "

yes I suppose there is that instant gratification factor that seems to have become so prevalent in America. I hadn't thought much about that.

Also (& I really hate to say this!) people are just getting meaner. :-(

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

97. I'm your age G_j and I remember the same thing. I don't believe in

the death penalty, period. I have been very surprised by the percent of people on DU that do support it under certain conditions.

[MadHound]

99. No, you're not imagining this at all

In fact it used to a main selling point of 'Pugs that they were the "law and order" party, with all that entailed including the death penalty. Just goes to show how far the Democratic party has shifted righwards over the past quarter century, that we're now attracting a group of people who do indeed want to kill 'em all.

[stepnw1f]

101. I Am Fairly Young

but that's what I always thought too.

[electron_blue]

106. I also remember when it was a RW cause

It makes sense to me why RW is against abortion, but for the death penalty. They are both mechanisms for keeping/enlarging the divide between the haves and have-nots. Think about it.